Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Console tEch threaD

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dangopee said:
I'm not talking about the consoles. I'm talking about narrow-and-fast vs wide-and-slow. For any given X number of TFLOPS, achieving it with a narrower, higher clocked architecture (if physically possible and practical) is ideal.

A single threaded Intel Pentium 4 (Prescott) running at 2.8GHz has about 5.6 GFLOPS. If it were physically possible to overclock that thing at 100 terahertz, and paired with similarly fantastical memory, it would have 200 TFLOPS of compute power and developers would not have to worry about vectoring/parallelizing/multithreading any of their algorithms or any of the overhead that comes with doing so. It could easily software render any modern game at max settings probably at thousands of FPS. There would be no need for massively parallel GPGPUs or multi-core CPUs.
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2080 Vs 2070 super factory OC variants.

They are very close to each other and with the 2070 super having the same number of rops as the 2080 it has a pixel fillrate advantage but the performance difference at 4k is similar to the Tflop difference. Even when you OC the core and Ram it only ties with the stock 2080 at best in dx12 titles.

So for GPUs wide and slow Vs narrow and fast doesn't really make much difference. Some games will prefer wider and others will prefer higher clocks it all depends on what parts of the architecture cause a rendering bottleneck.
 
WhispersintheWind said:
So I been busy today. Got caught up On the PS5 news. Reached out and spoke to a Dev. I had some questions. The first question I ask how where they targeting 11TF pref if the console peak is 10.3TF. This is the answered I received.

They was targeting 11TF because of the speed of Sony's SSD solution makes up for some of TFlops Performance. Also they would fine tune the rest in Optimization Stage with Ray Tracing. They also said the PS5 runs around 10TF all the time. While a game is running. In some scenes it would drop slightly. Like if the scene is a pre rendered. He stressed The SSD speed on PS5 will make a difference. Though Xbox Series X is the more powerful system.

That is all I have at the minute.
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This is the worst part of it all, The choices that Cerny made seem to make sense for some reason, but they failed to advertise it properly, he mentionned something Guerilla already demonstrated with Horizon, where the world loaded as the player turned the camera, I bet the SSD will allow those type of thing at another magnitude, but in the video it was a fucking MGS radar.

Same goes for the Variable clocks, it's the whole system "philosophy", it's for the CPU and the GPU, it's constant power but varying clocks, on that particular point it's funny that xbox team mentionned locked clock so much.

There are a lot of things that are of interest, but yet failed.
 
Apollo Helios said:
Going down 10% in power only requires a few % of down clock, so don't know the gpu clock numbers but TF number won't go from 10.23 to 9.2, it may go down to 10 but GitHub is wrong.

Boost clocks end up with 9.2TF narrative is simply wrong my dudes.
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We just don't know, right? DF will let us know in November, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's 9.2 most of the time, and the XSX is 30% stronger in GPU.
 
FranXico said:
The PS5 would have been an excellent proposition last year. As it stands now, it's ok but simply not as good as the competition.
We'll see.
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I disagree, its a well thought system with clearly some great advantages. Xbox GPU is better but not by huge margin like last gen. Also lets see how high clocks can mitigate some of those advantages. I feel lots of people are overreacting over nothing.

PS5 and XsX are really close, if you wanted a better visuals (less than last gen) then go Xbox. If you are looking for more than doubling the speed of the SSD then PS5 is yoir best bet.

PS5 and XsX is not far apart as lots of people are trying to paint here...Nov will come soon and you will see for yourself 😁
 
mm idk if sony is going on ps3 route again.

many costum parts/solutions
-> ssd extremly fast in theory, but wont be used by third party
-> variable gpu clocks (wasnt the most important benefit of a console that the operating variables like clocks, tf, performance etc. is identical on every
single machine ? how can developers optimize, when the performance is dependent on the cooling conditions of the room ?
-> that over engineered 3d audio stuff which needs fine tuned audioprofiles of the individual user (some even said it sounds like a better stereo lol)

All in all i think sony repeated the mistakes from ps3.
-> too many gimmicks, which are nice to have but not necessary, driving up the costs

and then there is still the theory that they aimed for a 2019 release and realized that MS was targeting 2020.
so they tried to squeeze out as much performance as possible from that 36cus
therefore the need for a better cooling solution.
 
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sony traded 2 Tflops rasterization performance for features and advanced customization in ps5 chip, the crazy things for me that stood out is decompression chip which would require 9 zen2 cores to do same job and audio chip which i familar to cell spu and is equalent in performance to 8 jaguar cores of course ssd real winner for ps5 speaking from development stanpoint also ps5 controller will be better then xsex with more features, so if both consoles had same games and same price i would still go for playstation 5.
 
Okami Haundo said:
Same goes for the Variable clocks, it's the whole system "philosophy", it's for the CPU and the GPU, it's constant power but varying clocks, on that particular point it's funny that xbox team mentionned locked clock so much.
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On the surface it's an odd point to make, about constant power and varying clocks. That's generally not something that an end-user cares about, outside of something battery powered. Give me locked performance and let the powersupply and cooler do their work. But maybe this plays into something we haven't seen yet.
 
chemical boy said:
It is necessary to speak clearly, PS5 is a disappointment and to date Sony are doing everything wrong. It seemed that today they would hit the table and it turns out that it is MS that has brought them down. PS5 is not a premium console. Not a $ 1,000 console. It's a $ 399
chemical boy said:
It is necessary to speak clearly, PS5 is a disappointment and to date Sony are doing everything wrong. It seemed that today they would hit the table and it turns out that it is MS that has brought them down. PS5 is not a premium console. Not a $ 1,000 console. It's a $ 399 console at most. And that is disappointing. Domde are those surprises that Ryan said was going to be announced? I will buy the output SX and wait for the PS5 pro. This PS5 doesn't seem like a well-made product, considering it's 36 cu and it looks like the watches have been forced to be above 10 TFLOS. By the way, there will be a big difference in the RT, in fact they have hardly named it. Osiris has teased us ...
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Sony have to fire Jim Ryan, he make a very Bad job very Bad decisions very Bad Marketing! He will Ruin the whole playstation Brand
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LiquidRex said:
So Ray Tracing will be 40% better on the XSX 😂

Just gets better, this is crazy from Sony 🤪
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How do you even get that number? Calculated fewer CUs and did you take into account at what frequency that GPU is running?

Xbox Series X GPU is running at 1,83GHz vs PS5 GPU running at 2,23GHz so it is 22% faster and that is not part of your equation so that comes from your ass most likely.
 
KAL2006 said:
I call bullshit on 10TF, I think PS5 probably closer to 8TF. And GPU clocks higher as CPU clocks lower etc.

They used 10TF as that's the max it hits and probably won't be 10TF all the time and if it is then CPU will get under locked more.

The lack of VRS and barely any mention of Ray Tracing says it all.

I think there will be a considerable gap between Series X and PS5. And people saying well PS5 will be checkerboard 4K and Series X will be native 4K so we won't tell the difference, what's stopping devs using checkerboard 4K on Series X.

As for faster SSD on PS5 that's cool but how many games will be designed around that other than exclusives as those games need to run on Series X and PC. At most you will get some quick load times in comparison but your talking a second or 2 difference.

The plus side PS5 looks to be cheaper than Series X but Sony may get beat on that end with Series S.
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Rewatching vid now, Cerny said he doesn't expect anything more than 2% dip in clocks from the cap. So that would put the GPU base clock at 10.07 TF, provided we take his claims at face value.

It's possible the drop is more than that, I would say it could be between 5% - 10% at most. Or a variable clock drop to 9.76 TF to 9.247 TF at lowest for more demanding games when the boost 2.23 GHz clock can't be sustained (either due to hardware resource demand or poor optimization). Honestly the mention of variable clock is a bit confusing because I'm assuming the 2.23 GHz is the default clock and it might drop down from that, but others are interpreting it as 2.23 GHz being the maximum cap and general clock performance is a bit lower than that usually 🤷‍♂️

But that is a very extreme example; Cerny seems confident it'll be near the 10.27 TF number vast majority of time so I'd say general performance is 10.07 TF - 10.28 TF probably 90%-99% of time.
 
o'dium said:
Certainly. I have several friends who are developers I'm various studios, and one had given me various bits of info. The info told me about the info drop on the 5th, which I alluded to with hints like Johnny 5 etc. That came to be. It was verified before posting it with @Mod of War and I posted some hints, but it came true. The original hints they gave me on spec was that it was 10.5ish with a target of 11.5, and that they were currently on the lower end of that value but hit some thermal issues. But this wasn't verified with Gaf. I then got updated values that it was 11.6, and that there was still thermal issues. This was verified, and I then posted some pigeon hints and fun.

Now here's the thing. The original value? Is was pretty much spot on. 10.5ish with thermal issues could mean that's where it was at, at one points, before being lowered to 10.2. That's realistic to me.

It's my believe that the values were changed by my friend because at this point they knew I was posting it on Gaf, and they got the jitters or something. I don't know, I'm still trying to figure that part out, and don't want to instantly jump to him being a dick.

So sadly, that's all there is to it. No massive crime novel, no hidden tricks. I got fed good info, and bought it. But then that info changed and I used that as an update, and it burnt me.

There isn't much else to say. Sorry it never turned out right, but at least we had a laugh along the way and made the news.
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So you're saying that they, Sony, are possibly releasing where they're at currently....with thermal issues or non optimal thermal performance or maybe just something along those lines to pause and think about if purchasing a PS5....something similar to the thermal GPU overheating issue in the 360? ( Though that was a design flaw from what I've heard whereas this with Sony may be pushing the clocks too high?)
 
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:messenger_grinning_sweat:
Apollo Helios said:
Has anyone not see 62% bigger CUs > 36 PS5 CUs = 58 PS4 CUs
those compute units are HUGE
and it is heavily customized and running at unheard of 2,2 GHz which will increase its bandwidth so much that it will have better RT performance or quality for same perf, no matter what Tflops number is thrown around.
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In your Dreams?
 
Aceofspades said:
People trying to paint this as being similar to Xbox one vs PS4 know nothing at all and are really exaggerating the differences.

First GPU TF difference is way less than last gen , way less than the mid gen refreshes too. At best case 20% to Xbox unlike 40% last gen, most of this will be mitigated by 4k resolution.

PS5 unlike Xbox One WILL have some specs advantages (incredibly fast SSD, I/O , Unified ram at higher BW, and higher fillrate)

Audio chip is available on both ( Sony expressed more detail and apparently had more emphasis on it, Cell SPUs like architecture) still to be seen .

Cerny clearly expressed that having high clocks can be very advantageous to games and they were able to maintain a really unusually high clocks (2.23Ghz on a console form is unheard of, he said that it will be maintained around that clock or %10 at worst case ~2.0Ghz) he clearly stated that a 4TF GPU with less CUs @high clock is better than 4TF GPU with more CUs @ lower clocks. Saying that, XsX is clocked high too but not ridiculously high like PS5.

He also said that People will be pleased by cooling solutions they did, he said Sony never did it before. Amazing news.

He fixed PS4 most annoying problem. The long process of patching the games. Ultra great news.

RT is still up in the air, but I expect XsX to perform better due to more CUs on the chip. Still needs to see to what extent this advantage can be.

All in all , the situation is nothing like last gen and frankly PS5 looks like a well thought beast of a machine.
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^this
I think maybe some of us are a bit excessive. That said, communication wise I find this move from Sony totally insane.
 
darrenskywalker said:
So you're saying that they, Sony, are possibly releasing where they're at currently....with thermal issues or non optimal thermal performance or maybe just something along those lines to pause and think about?
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Huh? No, not at all? I'm saying the original value i was given was 10.5 but ran very hot. The plan I was told was to fix the cooling and see what happens as they hd a higher target in mind. But the end value comes in at 10.2, which suggests to me that the original values I was given were actually somewhat correct. I mean look at those clocks, I can believe it. Later on I was given 11.6 and I ran with that and stuck with that, but I think that value was given to me on purpose because they had second thoughts about the original info.

Either way you look at it, I was wrong. Simple as that. But I'm not running away from that.
 
VanSiriusGabriel said:
^this
I think maybe some of us are a bit excessive. That said, communication wise I find this move from Sony totally insane.
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If anything, it shows that Sony are confident about their machine, they have nothing to hide. After MS reveal, they could have altered their presentation to focus on their amazing SSD solution and Audio, they could have added DS5 too to keep momentum, but they didn't and went super detailed on their machine which inspires nothing but confidence and pride.
 
For me this was expected....

devilNprada said:
My speculation for what it's worth...

Xbox moves toward competitive PC style gamers (hence the mini tower) "the go in your room and play Overwatch on two monitors crowd"... With frequent more powerful machine releases, eventually standardizing competitive gaming. Basically PC gaming with console efficiency. They will start this generation with something they are trying to present as a console to retain their home console fan base, but it will evolve to eventually being priced out of the home console market.

Sony stays with the living room gaming experience 'true console' nitch. "Casual chill out on the couch and play on the big screen."

This is the generation the two split in terms of competition with each other, and go their own direction. It will boil down to how and what type of games you play .I.E. I don't think anyone is looking to play Pokemon on a bigscreen.

Spec wise.. I like the 9+ quiet energy efficient Sony (console) and 12+ Xbox (mini tower)at a significant price difference.

Collaboration will be healthier than competition and exclusion.
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We didn't see games running on real hardware.
We didn't see how the real difference in performance and graphics is.
We don't know if the PS5 is a jet engine.
We don't know the pricing.

Some of you only see the TF and CU count. Consoles are out in 7-9 months (maybe!). It's enaught time to REALLY see which console is better.

SNES looks better but wasn't the best performing console it's gen. Look at games and not data sheets.
 
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Aceofspades said:
If anything, it shows that Sony are confident about their machine, they have nothing to hide. After MS reveal, they could have altered their presentation to focus on their amazing SSD solution and Audio, they could have added DS5 too to keep momentum, but they didn't and went super detailed on their machine which inspires nothing but confidence and pride.
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Yes, they had nothing to hide yet they are hiding everything to the eye of the average consumer. I got like 5% of what Cerny said, the majority is probably clueless. Even some "tech people" here much probably do not have half of the comprehension Cerny has of this system until they work on it.
 
Mr Moose said:
VRS?
Edit: Oh do you mean the DXR stuff?
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oh yeah my bad i meant Variable Rate Shading


n5lyPcS.png
 
X-Fighter said:
We just don't know, right? DF will let us know in November, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's 9.2 most of the time, and the XSX is 30% stronger in GPU.
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Actually have you watched the presentation? Because there it was explained that only instances like HZD map sequence or GoW map sequences are unnecessary power drains where PS4 and Pro fans go crazy and the frames become choppy for no reason (as can be seen by us, but behind the scenes explained by small triangles causing it). Now on PS5 these instances are where the gpu and cpu will use less power and down clock as needed.
In the presentation it is also explained that frequency goes down slightly, and that equates to TF figures more closer to peak 10.2 TF and 9.2 is mountains off, we don't know if it even goes below 10.1 or 10 and you're on your quest for GitHub narrative sayin 9.2 most of the time.
 
VanSiriusGabriel said:
Yes, they had nothing to hide yet they are hiding everything to the eye of the average consumer. I got like 5% of what Cerny said, the majority is probably clueless. Even some "tech people" here much probably do not have half of the comprehension Cerny has of this system until they work on it.
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This presentation was meant to be for devs at GDC. Thats why you have devs ecstatic about PS5, they know its a brilliant machine.

Sony still have plenty of time to show their box, the form, DS5, PSVR2 the games...etc.
 
thicc_girls_are_teh_best said:
Rewatching vid now, Cerny said he doesn't expect anything more than 2% dip in clocks from the cap. So that would put the GPU base clock at 10.07 TF, provided we take his claims at face value.

It's possible the drop is more than that, I would say it could be between 5% - 10% at most. Or a variable clock drop to 9.76 TF to 9.247 TF at lowest for more demanding games when the boost 2.23 GHz clock can't be sustained (either due to hardware resource demand or poor optimization). Honestly the mention of variable clock is a bit confusing because I'm assuming the 2.23 GHz is the default clock and it might drop down from that, but others are interpreting it as 2.23 GHz being the maximum cap and general clock performance is a bit lower than that usually 🤷‍♂️

But that is a very extreme example; Cerny seems confident it'll be near the 10.27 TF number vast majority of time so I'd say general performance is 10.07 TF - 10.28 TF probably 90%-99% of time.
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Like why the fuck would you overclock the GPU by 2% that seems highly unlikely, they could have just said 10tflops then.
 
CrustyBritches said:
xCloud server blade. :whistle:
IhJIhL5.jpg


-"When you make a game for Series X, you make the game for xCloud."
-"All about eliminating friction."
-"How do make a game that acts real?" ~Powerful CPU changes the game.
-"Streaming aware" means that, perhaps, if you designed the game for big screen on console, when the user is on phone the UI will resize for visibility. Also, optimize and customize tuning for input latency on console vs phone.
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Where can I buy this?

Kenpachii Kenpachii Fair point, wouldn't make sense to apply variable boost if it's only boosting by 2%. So maybe the 10% figure is more to what the differential actually is.
 
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Zero707 said:
oh yeah my bad i meant Variable Rate Shading


n5lyPcS.png
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"While Cerny doesn't mention technologies such as machine learning support or variable rate shading, PS5 does indeed deliver hardware-accelerated ray tracing via its Intersection Engine"
I hope they go into more detail about this stuff soon.
 
Aceofspades said:
This presentation was meant to be for devs at GDC. Thats why you have devs ecstatic about PS5, they know its a brilliant machine.

Sony still have plenty of time to show their box, the form, DS5, PSVR2 the games...etc.
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Still, they knew everyone was watching, c'mon. If they didn't calculate this they really are off the balcony here.
 
The Digital Foundry style videos of PS5 vs SX for cross-platform games are going to be painful for Sony. However I'm not sure how the power difference is going to be a good marketing differentiator unless they can point at very specific things or performance milestone the new Xbox can do that the PS5 can't.
 
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