Metroiddarks
Member
They talk to have billions of polygons in the same scene but also they even specified were hundred of million per object not billion, where is the controversy?
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Wandering Leopard
Member
In that article, "millions" was written by the author and not a quote from Tim Sweeney; and "billions" was mentioned in relation to triangles not polygons, in the official presentation, by Epic's Technical Director, Brian Karis.
Who do you want to believe?
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xacto
Member
The author of that article is Chris Wallace; whatever you don't see in quotes in that article is what the author wrote. Where you see quotes, as in what Sweeney says, like this:
"It's all real," says Sweeney. "But the important thing is that this was not a vast new content development effort. Most of these assets just came straight from Quixel Megascans, and were put together pretty quickly into a scene. The whole point of this technology is to enable any creator to be able to build this kind of high quality scene without having to create each piece by themselves manually." - that's what's really being said by Epic Games CEO or the CTO or the VP of engineering which were interviewed by the news outlet.
So going back to the unquoted part of the article, that's what your author, Chris Wallace, came up with, that's where you see the word "millions".
To be clearer on the subject, there's the demo video of UE5, timestamped for you, where you can actually hear the word "billions" since we're counting triangles:
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Ascend
Member
Let's quote what he exactly said...
"There are over a billion triangles of source geometry in each frame, that nanite crunches down losslessly to around 20 million drawn triangles."
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bitbydeath
Member
Check this thread out.
PlayStation 5 [OT] Taking Over The World One SSD At A Time
DISCLAIMER: This is an information thread, not a comparison thread. Please leave your comparisons or MeToo's for other such threads. Also please tag me if you believe something of value is missing. Other Applications available at launch: Funimation Plex...
bitbydeath
Member
I didn't say it wouldn't be available to all platforms. They're building around PS5 features that don't exist in other platforms because PlayStation has a long history of selling well and someone at Epic decided so.
PaintTinJr
Gold Member
It is certainly good that the quote has been straightened out, but in many ways getting it wrong is inconsequential to the topic IMHO, because the important part is rendering polygons at pixel sizes from assets that are orders more detailed- that's amazing IMO whether thousands, millions or billions of pixels. Rendering polygons that small looks like it removes so much noise from the final image, because either the shader or the rasterization process are anti-aliasing the edges just from doing their job normally - at the sub pixel scale.
Using real-time GI on top of that and effectively noiseless textures looks like the icing on the cake.
Bo_Hazem
Banned
Triangles are polygons friend.
im familiar with ps5 techCheck this thread out.
PlayStation 5 [OT] Taking Over The World One SSD At A Time
DISCLAIMER: This is an information thread, not a comparison thread. Please leave your comparisons or MeToo's for other such threads. Also please tag me if you believe something of value is missing. Other Applications available at launch: Funimation Plex...www.neogaf.com
And like I said it is pure bull crap. I don't care who said it.
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HAL-01
Member
this is flat earther level of denial. Just because you don't understand how theyre doing it doesnt mean its "bull crap".
Either take the time to learn how the core technology works or dont comment about it.
vpance
Member
Sweeney says they've been working very closely with Sony on storage for a long time.
It makes sense for Epic to be in the ear of Sony. They have a game changing feature in virtual geometry and they want to sell their engine on that, so they have to work with system architects to make an optimal SSD to ensure it gets used.
yewles1
Member
They specifically said in the demo that the statue was over 33 million triangles, and that the big room had 500 of them which equated to over 16 Billion (Thousand Million or Milliard for EU folk) and that the entire demo contained 100's of billions of triangles total. BTW, triangles and quads are the two most common forms of polygon primitives, which consist of multiple vertices, edges, then a face.
sonomamashine
Member
An advertisement deal with Epic = UE5 only runs on PS5
Hahahahaha nice try tho.
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Good job explaining. And like I said I do not believe they are rendering any of those statues at 33 million polygons. They are obviously saving a lot of data by having the same object replicated 500 times. Still, their numbers don't add up.
Nikana
Go Go Neo Rangers!
And they will do the same on XSX and mobile. Every platform will have advantages in some capacity and the engine will be tailored to each one.
Like every single engine on the market.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
lmao. im dying.
sonomamashine
Member
Trying to make the most money possible by making an engine to adapt to all platform.
My best guess from what I have read is that UE5 allows the developer to import high geometry models and the engine automatically generates lod data based on the target system. So while the imported data may contain billions of polys the actual rendered scene does not. This saves the developer time from having to create lod models manually. Again the above is my opinion based on what I have read. Don't take it as fact.
PaintTinJr
Gold Member
It feels like you are struggling with the context. They aren't rendering 33M polygons per model, or even storing all 33M in RAM, they are successfully storing just the ones facing the camera per frame (at an imagine quality of around 1 polygon per pixel) to make the issue of not having it in memory a moot point - all the visible geometry necessary to convince you all the polygons for all models are there, are there wherever the camera moves.
If you aren't familiar with BVH acceleration structures or hidden surface removal then I can see why you'd think it doesn't added up; and this is even harder to accept as it is cutting edge hardware and a cutting edge software solution to this very in-depth area of rendering.
This is an opinion of a dev on the ps5 ssd speed :
"The SSDs are obviously the biggest change, although probably less important than some people who think they're black magic are making them out to be. They won't cure cancer, but they potentially make loading a thing of the past . You can instantly transport across the map through a portal in my game with no pop-in or anything, and that's at 60 FPS.
And that's while targeting generic SATA SSDs on PC for compatibility. I don't even wanna' know what you could *need* the PS5's SSD for"
"The SSDs are obviously the biggest change, although probably less important than some people who think they're black magic are making them out to be. They won't cure cancer, but they potentially make loading a thing of the past . You can instantly transport across the map through a portal in my game with no pop-in or anything, and that's at 60 FPS.
And that's while targeting generic SATA SSDs on PC for compatibility. I don't even wanna' know what you could *need* the PS5's SSD for"
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Demon2blades
Member
Nice selection but there's also quite a few accounts from Devs praising the ssd of the ps5 for other reasons .
PaintTinJr
Gold Member
Something else that I remembered from watching the UE5 demo was that it seamlessly transitions from inside to outside in real-time, which at the time I was thinking, well that's interesting, normally space partitioning structures need optimised for indoor or outdoor at top visual fidelity, and would need a big load time corridor for the transition. Like Amazing Spiderman does when you go indoors. And then I forgot as the outdoor visuals of the demo were stunning.
Question on that front is, does UE5 have a new hybrid space partitioning structure? Or is the SSD and IO so fast that it can transition between different space partitioning structures at running gameplay speed?
Question on that front is, does UE5 have a new hybrid space partitioning structure? Or is the SSD and IO so fast that it can transition between different space partitioning structures at running gameplay speed?
amstradcpc
Member
Tell him to see UE5 video presentation.
Dr Bass
Member
There are a bunch of devs who had no idea what UE5 was about to show before yesterday. Of course they weren't thinking about using it for loading cinema quality assets and virtualized geometry in scenes. They were thinking in terms of what they were already familiar with. I saw a couple game devs "freaking out" on twitter over what was shown yesterday, so I think those past statements have to basically be completely disregarded at this point.
HAL-01
Member
You're getting close now. In a way, yes. The geometry engine bypasses conventional LOD systems and simply increases or reduces the polycount of assets on the fly, depending on their distance to the camera. From the viewpoint of the camera, it would just look like detail is unlimited.
amstradcpc
Member
Cerny tried to explain it all in its presentation but some didnt want us to believe SSD speed would improve games in more ways than loading times!
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B_Boss
Member
Oh yeah man, that's using logic from the site itself basically. It's good to make clear what a site says so misunderstandings are fewer if you know what I mean. PR fluff, marketing fluff, etc. lol. Always good to steer clear of it and understand what's really going on when appropriate
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TLZ
Banned
bitbydeath
Member
PS3 didn't get this luxary. Typically engines don't incorporate hardware quirks.
TearInto5th
Member
Yo
You could tell he really didn't want to be making the video.
T
Three Jackdaws
Unconfirmed Member
Epic Says That One Moment In Its PS5 Tech Demo Wasn’t To Hide Loading
One part of Epic’s new Unreal Engine 5 tech demo that stuck out to me was when the protagonist inches through a narrow passage to enter a cave. It’s the kind of thing I’ve seen hundreds of times this console generation and learned to associate with games buying time while a new section is being...
kotaku.com
Some of us already knew this but still good to clear things up.
"The actual goal of that part was to force the player camera to be really close to the wall to show how much detail there is in the scene," a spokesperson for Epic told Kotaku in an email. "We were not trying to hide any loading but actually show good looking assets in close-up."
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Nikana
Go Go Neo Rangers!
Except Tim Sweeny said on a Sony stage that the PS3 is easy to develop for.
So he was lying then but not now?
BadBreathOfTheWild
Member
A lot of game developers—particularly from the smaller studios—don't know much about how the engines they licence work internally. Game engine developers are a completely different breed to game developers.
Designing and creating a game using something like Unreal Engine is mostly a case of creating art assets and whatever logic the game needs in straight-forward C++ or even Unreal's own Boilerplate/scripting system.
Not all "game developer" feedback and sound-bytes are equal, even within the same studio. Bigger studios that have an in-house engine are worth listening to on what this kind of IO opens up, not some indy studio using Unity/Unreal.
People that are good at both engine and game design are an extremely rare breed. They're usually very different disciplines. Sweeney had to hire in when he was still called Epic MegaGames as he knew how to make a good engine, but not a popular game. Cerny is another engine/tool guy more than a game designer (Knack). These people know how to make an engine, what concessions and compromises they have to make, what the limitations are, where the bottlenecks are etc.
It's the difference between designing and machining a nice widget people want and designing and building the 5-axis CNC machine that allows you to make it.
On the topic of what will change the world of manufacturing, I'd trust the guy that designed the CNC machine over the guy spinning 3D models around in CAD.
Designing and creating a game using something like Unreal Engine is mostly a case of creating art assets and whatever logic the game needs in straight-forward C++ or even Unreal's own Boilerplate/scripting system.
Not all "game developer" feedback and sound-bytes are equal, even within the same studio. Bigger studios that have an in-house engine are worth listening to on what this kind of IO opens up, not some indy studio using Unity/Unreal.
People that are good at both engine and game design are an extremely rare breed. They're usually very different disciplines. Sweeney had to hire in when he was still called Epic MegaGames as he knew how to make a good engine, but not a popular game. Cerny is another engine/tool guy more than a game designer (Knack). These people know how to make an engine, what concessions and compromises they have to make, what the limitations are, where the bottlenecks are etc.
It's the difference between designing and machining a nice widget people want and designing and building the 5-axis CNC machine that allows you to make it.
On the topic of what will change the world of manufacturing, I'd trust the guy that designed the CNC machine over the guy spinning 3D models around in CAD.
TLZ
Banned
Hello Xbox warrior
Welcome to the arena!I don't think people like to hate MS. I think it's MS are good at making people not like them. Personally, I'm still looking forward to what they bring to the nextgen table, but their last Inside Xbox didn't help. It was all talk no substance so far. That disappoints me a lot.
I'm still waiting cautiously though. Still waiting for them to blow my green 12tf socks off.
saintjules
Member
Keighley is on Live doing a Q&A if anyone is interested
The more I thought about it this it what I think. Suppose for illustration you had an object that was 100 by 100 polys. Your budget for this object is 100 polys. At the farthest distance you would read every 10th vertex(really not quite this simple). As you zoom in your object budget would increase since in now occupies more of the screen. You now read every fifth and so on as you get closer.
If this is the approach then like I said billions of polys per scene is bull crap. You still have a reasonably small poly budget which if it is approximately 1 poly per pixel is 3.7 million polys per frame. Now that I can believe.
My questions for this approach.
1. How much processing power is needed to generate these new polys?
2. Are they also using a similar procedure for textures?( Like what Microsoft seems to be doing).
3. How much space are these huge datasets going to take up?
Edit: one question. Why are you bringing up the geometry engine? We are talking general purpose software here. UE5 is going to run on ps5, Xbox series x, pc, some phones and probably even current gen.
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Andodalf
Banned
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BadBreathOfTheWild
Member
If Microsoft don't do well it's bad for Xbox and PlayStation fans. PlayStation without competition will become expensive and lazy.
Sony has historically delivered its best with competition. It only got into this business to begin with to spite Nintendo after they pulled out on a collaboration.
If the XSX is well priced it will do MUCH better than XO. If XSX doesn't do well, we all lose.
I'm getting both, although at this point favouring PS5 first and XSX after the first price reduction (assuming the launch prices are sane and similar).
Sony has historically delivered its best with competition. It only got into this business to begin with to spite Nintendo after they pulled out on a collaboration.
If the XSX is well priced it will do MUCH better than XO. If XSX doesn't do well, we all lose.
I'm getting both, although at this point favouring PS5 first and XSX after the first price reduction (assuming the launch prices are sane and similar).
Audiophile
Member
Wonderful post!
Bo_Hazem
Banned
Absolutely! This is one of the hidden "secret sauce" features of the PS5 that is FINALLY being talked about. So the thing is sooo advanced that it has a dedicated cooling system for the internal electronics that also serves the users by, and at a proper time determined by biometric heat readings from the camera, give the users blow..........jobs......... Hmmm... It sounded better in my head than it looks on paper?
TLZ
Banned
bitbydeath
Member
That has nothing to do with incorporating the functions of cell into Unreal or any other third party engine.
HAL-01
Member
Please listen, this is something everyone already explained. There's 20 million triangles processed per frame, not 3.7. the "1 tri per pixel" is just a comparison of relative size. If you only processed tris within direct line of sight you wouldnt be able to do any lighting or physics calculations as the half of every asset facing away from the camera would be missing. They're also doing the same for textures, yes.
As i said before please stop calling bull**** about tech you clearly only have a superficial understanding of.
TheAmazingSpiderMan
Member
A direct quote from an article by The Verge day of UE5 demo.
Sweeney says "Epic has been working closely with Sony for years now on ensuring UE5 can best utilize the upcoming PlayStation's unique architecture"
Lol
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TLZ
Banned
Shmunter
Member
I'm also curious to the rebuttals that a faster memory pipeline having no benefit. Link to the Alex reasoning?
Nikana
Go Go Neo Rangers!
How does it not? Tim Sweeny said the PS3 was easy to program for. He said he got unreal running in 2 months on PS3. How is that not incorporating the unreal engine into cell?
bitbydeath
Member
Because it was never designed to take advantage of the architecture.
if anyone interested of the source of this .. a mod from an arabic forum chated with the developer personally ..
link : https://www.true-gaming.net/boards/...بلايستيشن-بدأ-البث.47394/page-11#post-1839356
The dev also said next gen games will look much better than UE5 demo with even 60 fps
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