FranXico
Member
PS5 was originally a 2019 console that got delayed.PS5 game development had almost 2 year headstart, and we know for sure that devkits of PS5 could have such a headstart
PS5 was originally a 2019 console that got delayed.PS5 game development had almost 2 year headstart, and we know for sure that devkits of PS5 could have such a headstart
Also such late support for XSX makes sense because Scorn developers stated that they've just get XSX devkits.What i found :
(06-26-2018)
(10-17-2019)
- Added a new secret NDA-ed platform.
(02-17-2020)
- Added initial support for a new secret platform. Contact Mitch for details.
(06-03-2020)
- Added a new secret platform. ( i think its the same platform as 10-17-2019 )
- Updated to PS5 SDK 1.0. ( i think its 6-26-2018 NDA-ed platform)
- Updated to secret platform 2020-05. ( i think its the same platform as 10-17-2019 and 02-17-2020)
My conclusion :
- Cerny said they switch to Kraken back in 2017 , Kraken is another RAD tool beside BINK and it was LAST MOMENT decision
- Bink have supported PS5 from 06-26-2018
- they never mention XSX so a new secret platform is just XSX
- Bink support for XSX started in 02-17-2020
- PS5 game development had almost 2 year headstart, and we know for sure that devkits of PS5 could have such a headstart
Its not just people here.Why are we so against facts on this forum.
Cerny said RDNA 2 people said it wasn’t.
Cerny said 10TF people said 9.
Sony literally just said they are on target for a holiday 2020 release, people here are still saying it might be delayed.
That's a private detective type of digging. Nice catch!What i found :
(06-26-2018)
(10-17-2019)
- Added a new secret NDA-ed platform.
(02-17-2020)
- Added initial support for a new secret platform. Contact Mitch for details.
(06-03-2020)
- Added a new secret platform. ( i think its the same platform as 10-17-2019 )
- Updated to PS5 SDK 1.0. ( i think its 6-26-2018 NDA-ed platform)
- Updated to secret platform 2020-05. ( i think its the same platform as 10-17-2019 and 02-17-2020)
My conclusion :
- Cerny said they switch to Kraken back in 2017 , Kraken is another RAD tool beside BINK and it was LAST MOMENT decision
- Bink have supported PS5 from 06-26-2018
- they never mention XSX so a new secret platform is just XSX
- Bink support for XSX started in 02-17-2020
- PS5 game development had almost 2 year headstart, and we know for sure that devkits of PS5 could have such a headstart
PS5 GPU had to be OC'ed to the extreme just to not look weak next to XSX GPU, so of course Cerny wanted to direct people attention to something else (I/O and tempest audio).Microsoft always brag about their strong points.
VA architecture was presented as something so much better than HDD. But it was overshined by 12TF.
On the other side Sony was clear : we are Going for I/O bottlenck and making best solution in whole Gaming industry. Not only better than hdd but better than everything on the market. GPU is nothing special on paper but it should be enough if you combo This with our solution.
I'm not suggesting such absurd things like secret GPU in the powerbrick. Everything I wrote are facts, because we still waiting for full XSX and PS5 architecture breakdown and both Sony and MS can still surprise people. For example do we know if PS5 will support VRS and directML AI? Do we know for a fact if MS indeed build a dedicated audio block? No. The reality is you are making definitive conclusions way too soon.XSX also has little LEDs and a power cord. This means nothing until demonstrated. So far, game switching says it's way slower but that's not a very good proof.
Yes, I'm making a conclusion. Maybe I know things, maybe not. I don't want to end up as a dead pigeon. Your arguments are the secret GPU in the powerbrick level.
CGI can be anything.
Aaaaaaand we're back at OC thing. It's absurd. The whole OC thing started because on of the earliest devkits on RDNA1 had lower clocks. Guess what, later devkits were with RDNA2 and handled higher clock. It does not mean it was OC'ed for fuck sake.PS5 GPU had to be OC'ed to the extreme just to not look weak next to XSX GPU, so of course Cerny wanted to direct people attention to something else (I/O and tempest audio).
We know for a fact PS5 I/O is faster, but we still dont know if it will translate into better graphics fidelity besides tech demos.
I'm not suggesting such absurd things like secret GPU in the powerbrick. Everything I wrote are facts, because we still waiting for full XSX and PS5 architecture breakdown and both Sony and MS can still surprise people. For example do we know if PS5 will support VRS and directML AI? Do we know for a fact if MS indeed build a dedicated audio block? No. The reality is you are making definitive conclusions way too soon.
PS5 GPU had to be OC'ed to the extreme just to not look weak next to XSX GPU, so of course Cerny wanted to direct people attention to something else (I/O and tempest audio).
Great job, warrior.PS5 GPU had to be OC'ed to the extreme just to not look weak next to XSX GPU, so of course Cerny wanted to direct people attention to something else (I/O and tempest audio).
[...]
Everything I wrote are facts
I mean common, i have feeling that this is becoming "zaitsu speculation thread" because of how much i writing here but from my perspective only counter arguments that some people here have are :FUD and tales from your arse.
Why do people make stuff up and lie blatently when every other poster is going to look at them and know they are a dick ?
PS5 GPU had to be OC'ed to the extreme just to not look weak next to XSX GPU, so of course Cerny wanted to direct people attention to something else (I/O and tempest audio).
I can't believe nothing from the conference/showcase/whatever has leaked yet? Great job by Sony for keeping it under wraps but at least a little snippet would be nice.
I think you haven't read the patent carefully.
Each section starts with an exposition on how bad things are in the current PC SSD architecture and then continues to show how Sony SSD removes that bottleneck.
If you open any SSD tech docs you will see both SRAM and SDRAM in the controller. The function of both is explained in the exposition.
You can also read a pretty coherent docs here http://www.openssd-project.org/mediawiki/images/Jasmine_Tech_Ref_Manual_v.1.4e.pdf (example of a generic PC SSD controller and how it works, take notice what SDRAM and SRAM is used for).
It's just another pole shift from the desperate who have little space left. If you pay close attention to what devs (including our own wonderful @BGs ) have been saying, this was much needed and welcomed by the industry as development costs just kept rising.
When you make an AAA game, engine development is a small team, sound design is a small team, etc. but graphics is done by a huge crowd (another crowd is game testers but that's another thing). Until the pandemic, people wanted to earn more every year so costs have been rising but games are still the same price as 10 years ago. That's why we get DLCs, season passes, in-game purchases, games as service and all that hidden crap. The new paradigm will allow every studio, from small to big, to cut costs on content creation.
If you realize that those impressive cave scenes in UE5 demo were created with 6 asset sets of rocks, you know that every dev studio out there is anxiously waiting to implement that technology. I read somewhere than a group of 20 people created this demo in half a year. Now take 500 people and give them 3 years, which is what most huge publishers do. Of course it doesn't scale linearly but also in both directions: assets can be reused, AI can be used to generate content like terrain, vegetation, weather. When you don't have to worry about baking light and textures into the scene, you are free to do other things.
When I look at Division 2 and how incredibly it depicts parts of two real cities, I can't wait to see what devs can do with new technology. Scanning of real life assets is huge and, when you don't have to spend hundreds of hours downsizing the results, will be even bigger.
I call that "games can't be that big" another FUD idea directly from a certain Discord channel. Games can be bigger than ever. Can they be more engaging than the usual 100-hour grind fests? That's up to their designers, not technology.
When you make an AAA game, engine development is a small team, sound design is a small team, etc. but graphics is done by a huge crowd (another crowd is game testers but that's another thing). Until the pandemic, people wanted to earn more every year so costs have been rising but games are still the same price as 10 years ago. That's why we get DLCs, season passes, in-game purchases, games as service and all that hidden crap. The new paradigm will allow every studio, from small to big, to cut costs on content creation.
If you realize that those impressive cave scenes in UE5 demo were created with 6 asset sets of rocks, you know that every dev studio out there is anxiously waiting to implement that technology. I read somewhere than a group of 20 people created this demo in half a year. Now take 500 people and give them 3 years, which is what most huge publishers do. Of course it doesn't scale linearly but also in both directions: assets can be reused, AI can be used to generate content like terrain, vegetation, weather. When you don't have to worry about baking light and textures into the scene, you are free to do other things.
When I look at Division 2 and how incredibly it depicts parts of two real cities, I can't wait to see what devs can do with new technology. Scanning of real life assets is huge and, when you don't have to spend hundreds of hours downsizing the results, will be even bigger.
People stay at home. If you spill the beans, it's over some form of digital communication, which isn't safe. If not for the pandemic, I'd get some info myself, speaking face to face with people.It amazes me how everything has been kept super top secret for so long.
Cerny said "RDNA2 based" not that it maters, because it was confirmed by Lisa Su laterWhy are we so against facts on this forum.
Cerny said RDNA 2 people said it wasn’t.
Cerny said 10TF people said 9.
Sony literally just said they are on target for a holiday 2020 release, people here are still saying it might be delayed.
Goalpost post Unreal 5 demo:We know for a fact PS5 I/O is faster, but we still dont know if it will translate into better graphics fidelity.
Probable goalpost once first-party exclusives are shown:We know for a fact PS5 I/O is faster, but we still dont know if it will translate into better graphics fidelity besides tech demos.
If all else fails:We know for a fact PS5 I/O is faster, but we still dont know if it will translate into better graphics fidelity besides tech demos and first-party exclusives.
...until an upgraded Xbox copying the PS5 IO system design is released.Diminishing returns
And here is the problem I was talking about. I can’t wait for next gen to be here so I never have to come back to this thread.Cerny said "RDNA2 based" not that it maters, because it was confirmed by Lisa Su later
Cerny said 10TF max. We still don't know what real average computing power there is.
Sony said that they are on target for holiday release and now that date disapered from they web page.
Maybe they should spend some more time communicating about what they are doing instead of filling 20 minutes of presentation supposedly addressed to game developers with talking about technology which exists in gaming for years now (steam audio was published in 2017).
Yes. Remembers me on Apples best times where it was hard to find any information or insider.It amazes me how everything has been kept super top secret for so long.
With how you were trying to correct me when I said the logical addresses the host (CPU/game) uses differ from the actual physical addresses the flash chips use I don’t think you read it at all.
This is precisely how the storage system in the Sony patent you linked works.
Secondly, and I don’t know why you’ve yet to acknowledge it: in the context of the Cerny slides and discussing PS5 “SRAM” refers to a “large pool” of memory sitting outside of the flash drive and on the main SoC, and that is precisely what I was referring to when someone asked if that pool of RAM would be used for the address mapping table.
It wouldn’t be because it sits distant from the controller over a PCIe link and would add too much latency.
You then told me it doesn’t matter because the physical addresses are requested from there anyway, and the data has to be sent over PCIe anyway, which shows not only do you not understand what I was talking about, but you didn’t understand what the Sony patent you linked was actually talking about.
It precisely made the point I was making before I even saw this patent:
Controllers are responsible for physical addresses and selecting where to write.
Hosts are agnostic of this and deal with logical addresses.
Controllers have a lookup table to convert from logical addresses to physical addresses.
On SSD memory is used to store this table to speed up random read performance.
SSDs without a large enough pool to store this table nearby suffer not just in write performance but in random read performance.
Sony is trying to improve random read performance that much that this patent suggests that even DRAM isn’t fast enough and they can get away with SRAM if they’re clever with how they use these lookup tables and can swap in different ones depending on the kind of IO action.
You haven’t read the patent at all if you think this is an exposition of how things currently work. The patent is describing exactly how to improve on how things currently work by the changes mentioned above.
To get back to my original point and the only thing I argued (which is corroborated by the patent):
The SRAM as shown in Cerny’s slide is not used for logical/physical address look up table. It’s too distant.
An SSD having close access to a large enough pool of RAM (be it DRAM or SRAM or both or anything else) to store this look up table not only improves write performance but random read performance, too.
Random read performance is important to gaming and ultimate IO performance as indicated not only in Sony’s patent (which clearly is inspired by PS5 and not some other machine) but by Cerny himself who said a benefit of SSD is no need for large runs of sequential data containing duplicate data.
SSDs don’t have seeks, but there is still overhead associated with a lot of queued file requests. One such overhead being relating logical address to physical address, which is not only still happening on PS5, but is even explained in detail in the patent linked.
How life looks like without this thread?And here is the problem I was talking about. I can’t wait for next gen to be here so I never have to come back to this thread.
Not really. I've always said that I thought the PS5 SSD tech is amazing, but that it might be overpowered. We should wait for the games, but there are a couple of devs that said this the same thing now.You mean like hope that velocity architecture is close enough to Sony solution ? Far fetched Logic. You choose what you want to belive.
Only the SSD though. Not the GPU. And let's not forget diminishing returns, which no longer applies to GPU power, but rather SSD bandwidth.PS5 is overpowered. You've heard it first on NeoGAF, folks. Now let's wait for news outlets to catch up with this thread.
I remember exactly the same argument being thrown 7 years ago when it turned out that X1 is much weaker than PS4: our console is more balanced. Then IGN said that there's no difference between 720p and 1080p, which was in turn parroted by DF.Only the SSD though. Not the GPU. And let's not forget diminishing returns, which no longer applies to GPU power, but rather SSD bandwidth.
You won't see such courtesies from RL toward the PS5 this time around, I'll tell you that.I remember exactly the same argument being thrown 7 years ago when it turned out that X1 is much weaker than PS4: our console is more balanced. Then IGN said that there's no difference between 720p and 1080p, which was in turn parroted by DF.
We just miss an Xbox exec getting banned and we're done.
I like that our friend Bo here takes as a personal obligation to read through the entire thread.
There is no point in continuing this discussion.
Really. Everything I've said is in the patent.
Including how file names are directly mapped to blocks (surprise, Sony SSD doesn't follow PC LBA legacy).
If you want to understand why Sony solution is unique and performant (and doesn't need any SDRAM on controller side) you can just carefully read it.
Tempest Engine can handle 3D audio whereas the dedicated sound chip on XSX can't do 3D audio, for 3D audio MS has software acceleration(Project Acoustics) which would require CPU/GPU resources.I am slightly confused here, can some one help me understand this a tad bit better . I think i have muddled up my understanding of this.
I thought that both consoles had dedicated sound chips/ hardware.
So after watching that video, Sony has a dedicated piece of hardware (Tempest engine,) .
It does not require cpu resources to power it or process the sounds from it.
Microsoft has a sound engine( Project Acoustics) but has no dedicated hardware chip so it still requires the console's cpu to process its effects.
Not sure if i explained it correctly but does this sound right?
PS5 is overpowered. You've heard it first on NeoGAF, folks. Now let's wait for news outlets to catch up with this thread.
We have no idea how the audio setup looks in the XSX. Bo_Hazem might claim otherwise, but the reality is that the only thing we know is that there is a "dedicated audio chip".
Edit:
Also worth noting that Atmos supports more than 32 sources, even though Bo_Hazem claims otherwise. It sounds like a personal vendetta, but it's certainly odd how much FUD is spread from certain users.
I saw it , 6 wentilators? Crazy right
That design has grown on me immeasurably.
Also want to point out that someone on Twitter brought up this same point shortly after the demo came out and someone from Epic responded and said that UE5 was made to make games, not tech demos and that they have kept storage in mind. But he wouldn't go into details. I'll trust his words over the CEO of a company who doesn't even have access to the new engine yet.You know I say this because of a direct quote from the CEO from Mooneye Studios, right? They said the demo could never be made into an actual game because that game would be way too big, hundreds of gigabytes.
But feel free to tell me how the CEO of Mooneye Studios is wrong, I'm obtuse and you apparently know better than actual developers.
EDIT: Quote was not by Epic, but by the CEO of Mooneye Studios. Changed my post for this.
I saw it , 6 wentilators? Crazy right
I remember that statementAlso want to point out that someone on Twitter brought up this same point shortly after the demo came out and someone from Epic responded and said that UE5 was made to make games, not tech demos and that they have kept storage in mind. But he wouldn't go into details. I'll trust his words over the CEO of a company who doesn't even have access to the new engine yet.
I can answer that only one way. You have no idea what you are talking about.The XSX sound chip offloads the CPU, because it's the same, old fake 3D audio, CPU-based:
Oh sure and you do ?I can answer that only one way. You have no idea what you are talking about.
oops
Further, affinity with processing handled by the accelerator 42 such as read data buffering to a built-in SRAM, encryption, and tampering check is enhanced in terms of data size, thus preventing disruption of processing halfway.
I can't believe nothing from the conference/showcase/whatever has leaked yet? Great job by Sony for keeping it under wraps but at least a little snippet would be nice.
Project Acoustic as library curently is software based because it exists now. You can use it in your game for xbox right now. It was confirmed by audio guy from Ninja Theory that Series X has hardware audio and now they don't have to fight for CPU and GPU resources.Tempest Engine can handle 3D audio whereas the dedicated sound chip on XSX can't do 3D audio, for 3D audio MS has software acceleration(Project Acoustics) which would require CPU/GPU resources.
They will put their anc headphones in boxGoodbye jet engine, hello Falcon rocket. I'm starting to think PS5 will have fan noise cancellation tech built-in.
Mebbe that's what the noise cancellation tech mooted for the Dualsense is for.Goodbye jet engine, hello Falcon rocket. I'm starting to think PS5 will have fan noise cancellation tech built-in.