Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Console tEch threaD

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SlimySnake said:
thats a short sighted view of things. Did putting games on PC make xbox exclusives better? quality wise or in general? i think exclusives designed for the sole purpose of selling a console has that much more incentive to be amazing. the game HAS to be good because it HAS to sell that console. it's the reason why Ubisoft, EA and Activision can churn out mediocre AC, COD and Battlefield games year after year because they know people on various different platforms will buy it anyway. they put the bare minimum effort and call it a day.

Where as sony had to count on their own console base to sell a decent number of units. Now they dont have to. All this good for gamers logic is flawed because in the end, a mediocre game isnt going to be good for gamers.

Exclusives define quality more than ever. Look at the GOTY award counts for the last 10 years. The last four years have been exclusives. 7 exclusives overall. We have seen games get watered down as they go to different platforms. if this happens with Sony exclusives, its going to be a miserable fucking future for Sony fans.
Click to expand...

From all that block of text I will choose to address your last sentence - I am a Sony fan, and it will not be a miserable future for me. So speak for yourself, you're no one's representative.
 
xacto said:
From all that block of text I will choose to address your last sentence - I am a Sony fan, and it will not be a miserable future for me. So speak for yourself, you're no one's representative.
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I am not claiming to be anyone's representative though?

If the games are mediocre like i hypothesized then the future will be miserable unless you like playing mediocre trash like watch dogs, division and ac odysssey.

Unless of course you are asserting that you are such a hardcore Sony fans that nothing they do will make you question your loyalty to Sony. I am a sony fan because i like the games they invest in. If other fans are fans because they feel this blind sense of loyalty to a fucking corporation then yes i have nothing in common with those fans.

this explains why certain fans are so quick to jump on me whenever i dare to criticize sony.
 
SlimySnake said:
Wtf is Sony doing?? Era mod is confirming reports that blooodborne is coming to pc.

Sony losing its exclusives to pc is the dumbest thing I've seen since ms took their exclusives to pc. Only dumber because ms owns Windows and has their own store.

Wtf is Sony doing? The good thing is that i don't have to buy their weak ass 10 tflops gpu and go with a 3080 to run games at 4k 60 fps on day one but this is a bad business decision.
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Dude you really need to relax and don't get so excited/annoyed so fast.

So making more money by releasing some of their exclusices on other plattforms is great. They'll make more money, have more customers that will bring even more money.
If they are more successfull as a company they can invest more into their next products. Be it movies,games,consoles or other hardware/tech. It benefits us all in the end.

Why do you care so much if other people can enjoy those great games on other platforms?
I on the other hand am glad. I hope more people will get to play sonys first party titles. Maybe they'll realize then what kind of greate games they produce.

I also appreciate all MS, Nintendo, Nvidia and Google are doing to create more/new places and ways to play. We as gamers all benefit from this. It pushes the industry and creativity forward.

Great times ahead!
 
I can't confirm this. This is a rumor. Didn't come from a Dev. Somebody DM me on Twitter and said Sony plans to make up for the wait and delay of the PS5 event when they do hold it. Take it as a grain of salt. What do they mean by making it up I don't know.
 
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Bonsaibäumchen said:
Dude you really need to relax and don't get so excited/annoyed so fast.

So making more money by releasing some of their exclusices on other plattforms is great. They'll make more money, have more customers that will bring even more money.
If they are more successfull as a company they can invest more into their next products. Be it movies,games,consoles or other hardware/tech. It benefits us all in the end.

Why do you care so much if other people can enjoy those great games on other platforms?
I on the other hand am glad. I hope more people will get to play sonys first party titles. Maybe they'll realize then what kind of greate games they produce.

I also appreciate all MS, Nintendo, Nvidia and Google are doing to create more/new places and ways to play. We as gamers all benefit from this. It pushes the industry and creativity forward.

Great times ahead!
Click to expand...

are you really thinking that these corporations will take that money to invest more in exclusives? well you have more faith in corporations than i do. a good example of this is sony gutting evolution studios even though ps4 was the fastest selling console of all time at the time and ps+ subs were literally making them a billion dollars a year. all that extra money and they gut the studio anyway.

anyway, i posted more about how losing exclusives is a bad deal for gamers in another post. you can read that below. its never going to be good for gamers because if it was, you would see third party multiplats getting goty every year.
thats a short sighted view of things. Did putting games on PC make xbox exclusives better? quality wise or in general? i think exclusives designed for the sole purpose of selling a console has that much more incentive to be amazing. the game HAS to be good because it HAS to sell that console. it's the reason why Ubisoft, EA and Activision can churn out mediocre AC, COD and Battlefield games year after year because they know people on various different platforms will buy it anyway. they put the bare minimum effort and call it a day.

Where as sony had to count on their own console base to sell a decent number of units. Now they dont have to. All this good for gamers logic is flawed because in the end, a mediocre game isnt going to be good for gamers.

Exclusives define quality more than ever. Look at the GOTY award counts for the last 10 years. The last four years have been exclusives. 7 exclusives overall. We have seen games get watered down as they go to different platforms. if this happens with Sony exclusives, its going to be a miserable fucking future for Sony fans.
Click to expand...
 
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BadBreathOfTheWild said:
I think if you keep your PS4 games on an external drive then m.2 PCIe 4.0 NVMe drives of sufficient speed and suitable form factor will be abundant and cheap on the open market before 825 GB becomes a problem. Certainly cheaper than a proprietary drive, and potentially of larger capacities, too.
It's a bit of a none issue for me personally. If we were limited to 825 GB for life then I'd be concerned, especially 4-5 years into the generation when the really big stuff that learns on the hardware capabilities starts coming out.

PS4's launched with 500 GB, and yet late in some PS4 games take a huge chunk out of that.
The same will apply here. The answer is storage upgrade, which will be even easier than ever before as you don't even need to replace the original drive any more, but merely add to it. Complete non-issue, as is an IO shredding 200 GB game of the future.

Upgrading a PS4 drive isn't an easy task for a beginner. Adding an additional m.2 drive to a bay will be child's play by comparison.
Click to expand...

Yup, you can get even 4TB:


Maybe slower than PS5's, but you can throw games less used there.
 
SlimySnake said:
but thats how it starts. Look up Phil Spencer tweets when Gears 4 made it to windows. he was all baghdad bobbing it saying its only one game. Herman did the same thing. and now just a couple of months later, we are going to get another ps exclusive show up on pc. this one didnt even get a pro patch.
Click to expand...
Because Phil Spencer and Herman Hulst are the same person.
 
SlimySnake said:
Wtf is Sony doing?? Era mod is confirming reports that blooodborne is coming to pc.

Sony losing its exclusives to pc is the dumbest thing I've seen since ms took their exclusives to pc. Only dumber because ms owns Windows and has their own store.

Wtf is Sony doing? The good thing is that i don't have to buy their weak ass 10 tflops gpu and go with a 3080 to run games at 4k 60 fps on day one but this is a bad business decision.
Click to expand...
Ah, you know you're in the next gen thread when you have that SlimySnake's daily FUD dose.
 
SlimySnake said:
I am not claiming to be anyone's representative though?

If the games are mediocre like i hypothesized then the future will be miserable unless you like playing mediocre trash like watch dogs, division and ac odysssey.

Unless of course you are asserting that you are such a hardcore Sony fans that nothing they do will make you question your loyalty to Sony. I am a sony fan because i like the games they invest in. If other fans are fans because they feel this blind sense of loyalty to a fucking corporation then yes i have nothing in common with those fans.

this explains why certain fans are so quick to jump on me whenever i dare to criticize sony.
Click to expand...

You know, at this point, I cannot wait tomorrow to see what other thing you're going to panic over.

Let me give you some news, I DO NOT CARE WHO YOU CRITICIZE, BE IT SONY, XBOX, OR TESLA MOTORS. I don't care, do you understand that? Also stop using "hardcore Sony fans" - that's Colteastwood territory, don't go there.

If you are a Sony fan, buy the game from Sony, play it on a Sony console, and stop fainting over the fact that a 4-5 year old game goes over to PC. Do you have shares at SIE? What's your problem with people enjoying a game? Are you THAT much of a fanatic? No one stole your precious game or console, just enjoy them and stop yelling, man, really.

Oh, more bad news, did you hear that also HZD is on PC now? Care to comment?
 
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MasterCornholio said:
I've been reading this thread since it was created but there's no way I'm brave enough to read through it again.

The madness the madness!!!

O3RT.gif
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The whole 2K pages? Well… uhh… what can I say? Guess… I guess that it's only 2K left until the reveal. Good job!
 
xacto said:
You know, at this point, I cannot wait tomorrow to see what other thing you're going to panic over.

Let me give you some news, I DO NOT CARE WHO YOU CRITICIZE, BE IT SONY, XBOX, OR TESLA MOTORS. I don't care, do you understand that? Also stop using "hardcore Sony fans" - that's Colteastwood territory, don't go there.

If you are a Sony fan, buy the game from Sony, play it on a Sony console, and stop fainting over the fact that a 4-5 year old game goes over to PC. Do you have shares at SIE? What's your problem with people enjoying a game? Are you THAT much of a fanatic? No one stole your precious game or console, just enjoy them and stop yelling, man, really.

Oh, more bad news, did you hear that also HZD is on PC now? Care to comment?
Click to expand...
I mean i called this when Horizon was first announced for PC and herman hurst was all this doesnt mean other exclusives will come to PC too!! I remember someone posting a tweet of Phil Spencer lying about how other xbox games will never come to PC and well we all know how that turned out. I mentioned all this back then and i was told the same thing you are telling me now, that horizon was a one time thing.

And i said this earlier, I am not a sony fan because i like their brand. Im a sony fan because i like their exclusives. i like the fact that they will let Ueda take 11 years to make the last guardian. I like the fact that they let Horizon be in dev for 6 years, ghosts for 6 years and gave sony bend 8 years to make days gone. No third party publisher does this because to them profits matter over quality. its why EA always fucks up bioware games forcing them to be released at the end of the fiscal year to get their profits up. its happened with mass effect 3, mass effect andromeda and now anthem. it happens every year with cod and battlefield and AC, games that get pushed out to take advantage of holiday sales in a really buggy state.

Would Sony push TLOU3 by six months if they didnt care about exclusives? if the end game is profits and thats the only reason for launching games on PC, profits, then the quality WILL degrade. at the end of the day, some suit will decide they need to launch a big game before their fiscal year results and that means rushing out a game. and thats just bugs and a few months of polish. no one is waiting 6-8 years to launch a game.
 
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SlimySnake said:
I mean i called this when Horizon was first announced for PC and herman hurst was all this doesnt mean other exclusives will come to PC too!! I remember someone posting a tweet of Phil Spencer lying about how other xbox games will never come to PC and well we all know how that turned out. I mentioned all this back then and i was told the same thing you are telling me now, that horizon was a one time thing.

And i said this earlier, I am not a sony for because i like their brand. Im a sony fan because i like their exclusives. i like the fact that they will let Ueda take 11 years to make the last guardian. I like the fact that they let Horizon be in dev for 6 years, ghosts for 6 years and gave sony bend 8 years to make days gone. No third party publisher does this because to them profits matter over quality. its why EA always fucks up bioware games forcing them to be released at the end of the fiscal year to get their profits up. its happened with mass effect 3, mass effect andromeda and now anthem. it happens every year with cod and battlefield and AC, games that get pushed out to take advantage of holiday sales in a really buggy state.

Would Sony push TLOU3 by six months if they didnt care about exclusives? if the end game is profits and thats the only reason for launching games on PC, profits, then the quality WILL degrade. at the end of the day, some suit will decide they need to launch a big game before their fiscal year results and that means rushing out a game. and thats just bugs and a few months of polish. no one is waiting 6-8 years to launch a game.
Click to expand...

7xSQk64.png
 
IkarugaDE said:
In general for everyone who wants to hunt for patents: Use the full "Sony Interactive Entertainment" only or (even better) the Japanese spelling "株式会社ソニー・インタラクティブエンタテインメント".
Click to expand...

You're flexing in Japanese now:messenger_winking_tongue:? That Captain Tsubasa game on Family Game seems like has built the basics. :lollipop_tears_of_joy:
 
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SlimySnake said:
I mean i called this when Horizon was first announced for PC and herman hurst was all this doesnt mean other exclusives will come to PC too!! I remember someone posting a tweet of Phil Spencer lying about how other xbox games will never come to PC and well we all know how that turned out.
Click to expand...
Phil never said that you take it back!
 
danhese007 said:
Do you also trust Dolby over Microsoft?


seus037.jpg


Their theater implementation supports 118 dynamic objects but home audio/game is limited to 32. Can it support more? Yes but as it stands their own implementation limits it. Mark Cerny did not pull that number out of thin air.
Click to expand...

Thanks a lot for that great input, lying or misinformation isn't Mark Cerny's trait.
 
Edit - Bo dont knowbhow a quote of you got in there, deleted with prejudice! 😝

ESTABLISHING REGIME said:
So fellas, i have 2 year 7.2 channel denon aV, Do you guys think i should upgrade n be ready for ps5?
Im a audio freak but denon i have atm does not support hdr i dont think.
Click to expand...

Didnt look at specs, but if it passes through 4K and HDR you should be fine.

Ill probably uprgrade a year or two in. I have an Onkyo 636 from like 2014. Still need a 4k TV too. Also want to see how the tempest engine works with headphones first. Will probably get Sony 1000xm4 before anything.
 
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GRIEVEZ said:
Its almost like people expect a fair tech assessment of a channel covering tech - without the necessity of downplaying, calling people liars and ridicule for people who were passionate/proud of their work :goog_unsure:



Its nice he admits faults, but wonder about the motivation behind it... Is it really about making it right - or saving face? In any case it could be resolved by covering this fairly (and actually researched) without Tim's involvement... that would make it more right, than to request a reset imho - which he says he's doing reading/watching material)
Click to expand...

Whatever it is, he apologized, and that alone is something. So let's give him the benefit of the doubt and wait for his video.
 
i come back after a couple days and that slimy snake is still here still freaking out about nothing lmao

Anyways i hope that Bloodborne pc port means we're also getting a PS5 60fps patch
 
SlimySnake said:
are you really thinking that these corporations will take that money to invest more in exclusives? well you have more faith in corporations than i do. a good example of this is sony gutting evolution studios even though ps4 was the fastest selling console of all time at the time and ps+ subs were literally making them a billion dollars a year. all that extra money and they gut the studio anyway.

anyway, i posted more about how losing exclusives is a bad deal for gamers in another post. you can read that below. its never going to be good for gamers because if it was, you would see third party multiplats getting goty every year.
Click to expand...

Dont worry, HZD2 will probably use insane streaming tech anyway that only ps5 can run anyway for a while. Sony are not stupid. You will have the last laugh... :messenger_sunglasses:
 
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aclar00 said:
Didnt look at specs, but if it passes through 4K and HDR you should be fine.

Ill probably uprgrade a year or two in. I have an Onkyo 636 from like 2014. Still need a 4k TV too. Also want to see how the tempest engine works with headphones first. Will probably get Sony 1000xm4 before anything.
Click to expand...

Do you torture your TV for long hours like I do? I just did 37 hours few days back on neogaf, imagine the bars and icon and what that would do to OLED's. Then pic Sony XH90 (X900H) as it supports full HDMI 2.1 features. If you are an OLED guy, then go for the old LG C9 or B9. Sony will most likely start with its own products for the Tempest (TV's, sound systems, etc).

And for headphones, you only need 2.0 Channel, but I'm with you there waiting for WH-1000XM4 if LDAC support is confirmed on PS5. You can wait for the new PS headest, heard that the Platinum has been discontiuned, or outsold, not sure, but a revision might come and implement Sony's LDAC tech for 990kbp audio quality bluetooth.

02E.jpg


The WH-1000XM4 might still have 40mm drivers, so maybe waiting for a new PS headset that's more gaming-centered with 50mm drivers could be better.

EDIT: Well, it's a mistake quote but hope this helps.
 
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Bo_Hazem said:
Do you torture your TV for long hours like I do? I just did 37 hours few days back on neogaf, imagine the bars and icon and what that would do to OLED's. Then pic Sony XH90 (X900H) as it supports full HDMI 2.1 features. If you are an OLED guy, then go for the old LG C9 or B9.

And for headphones, you only need 2.0 Channel, but I'm with you there waiting for WH-1000XM4 if LDAC support is confirmed on PS5. You can wait for the new PS headest, heard that the Platinum has been discontiuned, or outsold, not sure, but a revision might come and implement Sony's LDAC tech for 990kbp audio quality bluetooth.

02E.jpg


The WH-1000XM4 might still have 40mm drivers, so maybe waiting for a new PS headset that's more gaming-centered with 50mm drivers could be better.

EDIT: Well, it's a mistake quote but hope this helps.
Click to expand...

Looks like that Sony should be getting some reviews soon as its finally up for sale on Amazon and other sites.
 
HeisenbergFX4 said:
Looks like that Sony should be getting some reviews soon as its finally up for sale on Amazon and other sites.
Click to expand...

Been waiting for those reviews since CES 2020! But for sound quality, you better get the 65" or higher if you use built in speakers as that size and above will have acoustic, screen sound effects. The HX95 (X950H) has this interesting sound adaptation tech, Sony is really playing around with sound: (timestamped)




Funny thing it's the flagship for 4K but will not support full HDMI 2.1 like HX90!
 
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Every PS5/Sony related thread goes to shit any time there is a new rumor about one of their exclusives ending up on PC. I've made peace with the fact, that Sony exclusives are no longer in 'Nintendo tier protective' category once Horizon was confirmed on PC. Schreier in that very article wrote he heard more exclusive games will end up on PC. I'm assuming BloodBorne is one of them. I hope they don't shaft console user-base and prepare a proper PS5 patch for it.

We can discuss long-term implications for it, which is what SlimySnake SlimySnake is getting at. He just tends to be over-dramatic but the core point is important, how will Sony tread the line of protecting their cash cow i.e. gateway hardware (PS4, PS5) while at the same time fattening the profits of their exclusives? I'm sure these decisions are taken using ton of paper/research done by many many marketing firms across the globe, but I personally feel, that their exclusive software, is the biggest selling point of their hardware. Which in turn opens up an avenue of revenue in form of services, subscriptions, store purchases, MTX etc. once a user is hooked in.

You want more PC users to get into your ecosystem? Fine, one way of doing that is giving them a taste of what's on offer. But, at the same time, you have to ensure, you don't risk losing players from your current console user-base, it's a balancing act, and I'm surprised Sony are risking so much just to get few more bucks out of their software. Your average PC gamer doesn't have a high-end PC, they don't buy games at full price, some of them do bother to pick them up for $5-10 when there is store sale on Steam, while for the rest pirate market is still king. Diluting the USP of your console doesn't seem to be the smartest move, but what do we know?

The point about the quality of exclusives taking a dip, that could happen irrespective of the fact the game is an exclusive or not. It depends on the publisher, and as far as I see, the current regime at Sony seem to care about the quality of their software, which is evident by the time and money they give to their studios, so they wouldn't push a product, even if it comes at a fiscal cost. I don't see this changing in the future unless there is a huge upheaval in the top executives.
 
SlimySnake said:
but thats how it starts. Look up Phil Spencer tweets when Gears 4 made it to windows. he was all baghdad bobbing it saying its only one game. Herman did the same thing. and now just a couple of months later, we are going to get another ps exclusive show up on pc. this one didnt even get a pro patch.
Click to expand...

I 100% agree. My opinion.... there is one side of me who couldn't give two shits if Sony did this.....like if they treat PC gamers like first class citizens I'll upgrade my rig and avoid paying for PS Plus - no ifs or buts. However the older me understands that if Sony goes the way of MS, indeed the way of any other third party publisher, the level of quality, and variety in their games will tank - sooner or later. This little golden age for SIE that we saw this gen will be gone. And you can't count on Nintendo as a fall back when they're always stuck 5-7 years behind in tech. Console gaming and exclusives are necessary. Greed and misguided leadership does always get in the way of good things, unfortunately.
 
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icerock said:
Every PS5/Sony related thread goes to shit any time there is a new rumor about one of their exclusives ending up on PC. I've made peace with the fact, that Sony exclusives are no longer in 'Nintendo tier protective' category once Horizon was confirmed on PC. Schreier in that very article wrote he heard more exclusive games will end up on PC. I'm assuming BloodBorne is one of them. I hope they don't shaft console user-base and prepare a proper PS5 patch for it.

We can discuss long-term implications for it, which is what SlimySnake SlimySnake is getting at. He just tends to be over-dramatic but the core point is important, how will Sony tread the line of protecting their cash cow i.e. gateway hardware (PS4, PS5) while at the same time fattening the profits of their exclusives? I'm sure these decisions are taken using ton of paper/research done by many many marketing firms across the globe, but I personally feel, that their exclusive software, is the biggest selling point of their hardware. Which in turn opens up an avenue of revenue in form of services, subscriptions, store purchases, MTX etc. once a user is hooked in.

You want more PC users to get into your ecosystem? Fine, one way of doing that is giving them a taste of what's on offer. But, at the same time, you have to ensure, you don't risk losing players from your current console user-base, it's a balancing act, and I'm surprised Sony are risking so much just to get few more bucks out of their software. Your average PC gamer doesn't have a high-end PC, they don't buy games at full price, some of them do bother to pick them up for $5-10 when there is store sale on Steam, while for the rest pirate market is still king. Diluting the USP of your console doesn't seem to be the smartest move, but what do we know?

The point about the quality of exclusives taking a dip, that could happen irrespective of the fact the game is an exclusive or not. It depends on the publisher, and as far as I see, the current regime at Sony seem to care about the quality of their software, which is evident by the time and money they give to their studios, so they wouldn't push a product, even if it comes at a fiscal cost. I don't see this changing in the future unless there is a huge upheaval in the top executives.
Click to expand...

I think dear Slimy is having too much drama over it :messenger_winking_tongue: HZD1 will look like shit when you see HZD2 on PS5, that's why they didn't release it yet on PC:

"And to maybe put a few minds at ease, releasing one first-party AAA title to PC doesn't necessarily mean that every game now will come to PC," Hulst states in a new interview. "In my mind, Horizon Zero Dawn was just a great fit in this particular instance. We don't have plans for day and date [PC releases], and we remain 100% committed to dedicated hardware."

www.pushsquare.com

Not Every PS4 Exclusive Guaranteed for PC Release, Says PlayStation Boss

"100% committed" to PlayStation hardware
www.pushsquare.com www.pushsquare.com

They've already heard the voices, and they won't gamble further. Except one infamous guy that thinks HZD1 on PC will look better than HZD2 on PS5.
 
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geordiemp said:
Posters saying there is not room for high detailed graphics next gen, insomniac says no.

EVnaz1W.jpg


Blu ray disks now 100 GB, 2 disks 200 GB, current gen games 40 odd GB with so many dupes for streaming.

Next gen games are going to be awesome,
.
Click to expand...
add procedural generated stuff and data size should shrink even more if i think correctly
 
Bo_Hazem said:
I think dear Slimy is having too much drama over it :messenger_winking_tongue: HZD1 will look like shit when you see HZD2 on PS5, that's why they didn't release it yet on PC:

"And to maybe put a few minds at ease, releasing one first-party AAA title to PC doesn't necessarily mean that every game now will come to PC," Hulst states in a new interview. "In my mind, Horizon Zero Dawn was just a great fit in this particular instance. We don't have plans for day and date [PC releases], and we remain 100% committed to dedicated hardware."

www.pushsquare.com

Not Every PS4 Exclusive Guaranteed for PC Release, Says PlayStation Boss

"100% committed" to PlayStation hardware
www.pushsquare.com www.pushsquare.com

They've already heard the voices, and they won't gamble further. Except one infamous guy that thinks HZD1 on PC will look better than HZD2 on PS5.
Click to expand...
Reported for quoting an official source and do not include a link from a resetera mod.
 
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ESTABLISHING REGIME said:
So fellas, i have 2 year 7.2 channel denon aV, Do you guys think i should upgrade n be ready for ps5?
Im a audio freak but denon i have atm does not support hdr i dont think.
Click to expand...

Only upgrade if you use wireless and buy a Sony headset that supports Sony's high-res quality LDAC bluetooth.

If wired, any good pairs with only 2.0 channel will be good. The DualSense itself might be using LDAC as well, so don't rush and wait.
 
WhispersintheWind said:
I can't confirm this. This is a rumor. Didn't come from a Dev. Somebody DM me on Twitter and said Sony plans to make up for the wait and delay of the PS5 event when they do hold it. Take it as a grain of salt. What do they mean by making it up I don't know.
Click to expand...
Free PS5s for everyone on Gaf!
 
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If Herman Hults thinks he's the second coming of "good-talking" "savior" Phil Spencer and that PS nation won't see his BS and eat up that crap like unfortunate diehard Xbox gamers he has another thing coming.... PS ain't the shooter box. There is always wolves in sheep clothing talking about "inevitable futures" as they purposefully ram change down your throat to make a buck... specially by abusing their position in the market. Doesn't help that MS is worse - and as a result unable to capitalize on a mistake presenting no pressure risk.
 
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