Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Console tEch threaD

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PSXQ8 said:
At 0:36 they are leaving the xbox behind, Playstation team savages :messenger_tears_of_joy::messenger_tears_of_joy::messenger_tears_of_joy:

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They did it to themselves.
 
DaGwaphics said:
Have you ever researched the basic chip binning process? Clocks definitely play a roll.

Take Intels processors as an example, a small percentage of the best chips can hit clocks high-enough to be packaged as K series parts (with other limits like heat spread and power draw figured in). Let's say you commissioned a chip for a custom product on this same process and your design required k series clock speeds, you now have much lower yields than Intel because they can bin down and you have no room to do that with your custom chip. There is always that point where you could push clocks to an extreme degree and get 10 chips to a wafer that worked. No one would design a chip like that, but that doesn't equate to clock speed having no role.

Obviously all types of defectives play into the binning as well. Intel doesn't manufacture 20 different chips from the same fabrication process for nothing.
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Yes... that is why I said it is nonsense.

The yield issues are related to non-functional parts/units of the chip and not that the chip can't reach determined clocks.
All chips reaches the same clock... the binned chips are due some chips have a easy way to overcome the power envelop of the chip than others so they could easy reach high extreme clocks than others and not that the non-binned chip can't reach the clocks of the non-binned ones.

Said that these extreme overclock are in the over limit of the power envelop the chip was designed so it won't have performance gains in a proportional way to the clock.
 
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SatansReverence said:
A single pool of memory with variable speed depending on where data is stored is not even remotely the same as a split memory pool. It's not even semantics.
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It is neither, and it is both at the same time. It is like when you build a PC with 2 different speed sticks of RAM. The PC will perform to the lower spec RAM speed (although this in itself can be problematic). The only difference here is XS is smart enough to utilise both speeds of RAM more efficiently than a PC or so we are told.

A 10% failure rate in a sample of just 16,000 consoles, 11 years ago, when the PS3 was a year younger than the 360. Big oof.
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I'm quite certain that the quoted percentage is not correct, but even if it is 10%, it is within the general range of new hardware failure (albeit on the higher end of the spectrum). If you were to compare 360 in its first year, it was supposedly as high as 54% failure rate:


This alone would have staved off any recalls or lawsuits. YLOD was a general hardware error whereas RROD was more specific than that.
 
Roronoa Zoro said:
That game looks interesting but I hope they show some gameplay for it and that astronaut one with the girl and VR shit
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Pragmata for that astronaught & girl game. I was soo pissed when I saw the far off release date on that trailer, that game intrested me the most of that entire show.
 
ethomaz said:
Yes... that is why I said it is nonsense.
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Clock speeds absolutely do effect yields, as Intel and AMD have described themselves. 🤷‍♂️

I'm not sure what you are calling nonsense.

I'm not saying PS5 has a yield problem because obviously they would have chosen the final clock speed after already seeing the result of production.
 
DaGwaphics said:
Clock speeds absolutely do effect yields, as Intel and AMD have described themselves. 🤷‍♂️

I'm not sure what you are calling nonsense.

I'm not saying PS5 has a yield problem because obviously they would have chosen the final clock speed after already seeing the result of production.
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Wrong.

Intel and AMD never described something like that.

Like I said a chip is considered bad (yield issues) when it has units/parts of it not working like designed.
There is no relation with the clock.

All chips can reach the same clock.
Binned chips have are easy to overcome the designed power envelop so the clocks can go easier in extreme overclock but the performance doesn't scale in the same proportion as clock because you are over the designed power envelop.
 
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IntentionalPun said:
What games does MS even have coming that I'd want to see gameplay of? lol

You see me say it more about Sony games.. because.. get this.. I am interested in them. Also.. get this.. they have a presentation tomorrow.. so.. get this.. I was saying what I want out of the presentation.

MS has barely anything, and won't for years.. and I've consistently brought up that it's concerning they haven't even shown 3rd parties running on their hardware.

Just stop commenting about me? How many posts have you made the last couple of days where the only point was to insult me? Talk about get a life.

Tired of the endless bullshit here.. if you aren't swallowing Sony's pillowy loads constantly it's endless fanboy accusations.. Sony has barely shown SHIT.. as someone buying PS5 I want to see more.. these statements have nothing to do with Xbox or the sad little console war that goes on in some of your brains.
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Time for your pills I think. Deep breath.
 
Rocco Schiavone said:
Stop posting this fake shit.
For the last time because of the 12 channel interface for the SSD It's not possible to release a 2tb Version.

825gb, 1625gb 2475gb and so on.
Jesus.
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I think it is not economical / possible to make 196 GiB chips. I think it would be 64 GiB / 128 GIB / 256 GiB 825/1650/3300 chips
 
NoviDon said:
...Company announces a reveal date of their highly anticipated product->Scandalous rumor pops out of nowhere -> Gafers take it as gospel and freak out ->impending battle for the honor of your fandom breaks out->the truthfacts get revealed that completely shutdown the rumor ->Rumors continue to "leak" out, until the product is finally revealed-> Company announces reveal date for highly anticipated product...I'm think I'm seeing a pattern here..🤔
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I have found it completely asinine the sheer amount of FUD that xbox fans have tried shoveling. GAF might shut it down quickly, but that shit trickles-down to the likes of Facebook, and the 'games journalists/websites' then come along and regurgetate it for clickbait, knowing damn well it's not true.

I'd mostly say that the vast majority of any critisisms towards XB has come because of MS themselves (Craig, feel like no proper next gen games, Series S' limitations).
 
ethomaz said:
Wrong.

Intel and AMD never described something like that.
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They have multiple times. Intel has gone into great detail in regards to their binning procedures. AMD has discussed the binning process for Polaris, etc. K series processors are top binned parts, equivalent non-k parts are chips that could not support the k series clocks. Everything would be max clocks if this was not a consideration. LOL
 
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T-Cake said:
That is nonsense.
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Nope.

DaGwaphics said:
They have multiple times. Intel has gone into great detail in regards to their binning procedures. AMD has discussed the binning process for Polaris, etc. K series processors are top binned parts, equivalent non-k parts are chips that could not support the k series clocks.
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Nope.

Binning process like I explained is not related with clocks.
 
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IntentionalPun said:
What games does MS even have coming that I'd want to see gameplay of? lol

You see me say it more about Sony games.. because.. get this.. I am interested in them. Also.. get this.. they have a presentation tomorrow.. so.. get this.. I was saying what I want out of the presentation.

MS has barely anything, and won't for years.. and I've consistently brought up that it's concerning they haven't even shown 3rd parties running on their hardware.

Just stop commenting about me? How many posts have you made the last couple of days where the only point was to insult me? Talk about get a life.

Tired of the endless bullshit here.. if you aren't swallowing Sony's pillowy loads constantly it's endless fanboy accusations.. Sony has barely shown SHIT.. as someone buying PS5 I want to see more.. these statements have nothing to do with Xbox or the sad little console war that goes on in some of your brains.
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i think you're undercover agent for xbox i sense moles from 100 mile radius that avatar of yours is very suspicious. what's your goal in here?

prepares bait.... 🦴
sniff, sniff... 👀
ha... ❕
secret agent. stop snooping around...
tenor.gif
 
IntentionalPun said:
What games does MS even have coming that I'd want to see gameplay of? lol

You see me say it more about Sony games.. because.. get this.. I am interested in them. Also.. get this.. they have a presentation tomorrow.. so.. get this.. I was saying what I want out of the presentation.

MS has barely anything, and won't for years.. and I've consistently brought up that it's concerning they haven't even shown 3rd parties running on their hardware.

Just stop commenting about me? How many posts have you made the last couple of days where the only point was to insult me? Talk about get a life.

Tired of the endless bullshit here.. if you aren't swallowing Sony's pillowy loads constantly it's endless fanboy accusations.. Sony has barely shown SHIT.. as someone buying PS5 I want to see more.. these statements have nothing to do with Xbox or the sad little console war that goes on in some of your brains.
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Being a Sony fan myself I look forward to what Sony can show me tomorrow.

What interests me the most on the Xbox side is what that 12 tf machine can do head to head vs the PS5.

I know we wont see these comparisons until well after launch but I want to see Cyberpunk and Call of Duty some of those big games what are the differences.

Plus I have always enjoyed Forza so really look forward to seeing that on the XsX.
 
ethomaz said:
Nope.


Nope.

Binning process like I explained is not related with clocks.
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If you believe every chip can run the same speed with the same thermal and power curve, that's on you. In reality, silicone lottery losers get binned to a lesser product where they can still be usable.
 
DaGwaphics said:
If you believe every chip can run the same speed with the same thermal and power curve, that's on you. In reality, silicone lottery losers get binned to a lesser product where they can still be usable.
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That another bullshit story.

Nobody ever gets a lesse product chip lol

The clocks set for production CPUs are so below the curve to thermal affect the clock or life of the CPU that I really start to wonder where you read that made up claim.

Intel binning works like that.

They have a test phase called Class... it is basically a very large component tester that can execute assembly code to stress portions of the chip... it validate the thermals or better being simple it validates the voltages and temperatures where the chip begin to fail.

With that info plus the extending life testing (about 10 years for CPUs... Intel already have these data from previous chips) they define what is the secure voltages and temperatures they can work with the the chips that goes to retail.
That basically set the clock speed of the chip that will be shipped (you knows what the defines the clock is voltages and thermals)... that is a heavy safe clock that will never make the chip fail.

That is all done in design process before the chip goes in mass production.

The clock choose in that part makes safe all chips send to retail will not break the voltage and temperature limit... so it won't fail at the actual specs... all of them... Intel uses a very safe margin of error too (the chips can go higher in both voltages and temperature).

Yield issues has nothing to do with that.

Yield issues are related with non-funcional units or parts of a chip.

Sony PS5's chip is in masse production and already passed the "binning" tests that defines its voltages and temperatures (in simple terms what defines the retail clock) so all chips produced will reach that safe level.

Intel has tons of docs explained that but I won't waste my time looking at the Intel site after they changed it to way that is near impossible to find the released old docs.
 
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sircaw said:
Yer those foldings were a work of art, i used to look so forward to them, i think i was like 10 or something i begged my Father at the time to buy my a subscription to Mad mag, he bought me a 6 month one, it used to arrive in the post all rolled up. The first thing i used to do was check out the fold in, damn those were the good old days.

As for the game, i sadly never got to play it, lol but looks super fun.

Mad magazine was my penthouse or playboy of the times. :messenger_grinning:
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6dHQKLrbI0t7OR_zZxvLIm4A3kw=.gif
 
Even if Sony doesn't announce anything about console shipments tomorrow, we're only a few weeks away from quarterly reports. This being the Q2 report, means FY projections might be made. They would want to provide guidance for investors before the holiday season. Springing that kind of news after holiday sales have already been processed would not be a good look. So we'll know if there's any meat to the rumors in a matter of weeks, at most.
 
ethomaz said:
The clock choose in that part makes safe all chips send to retail will not break the voltage and temperature limit... so it won't fail at the actual specs... all of them... Intel uses a very safe margin of error too (the chips can go higher in both voltages and temperature).
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This is very true. And there will be chips that are functional (cache, working cores, etc.) that are over acceptable limits at X clock speed (require too much voltage). Those chips will not be used for this product. However, they may be used in a lower clocked product which could bring the voltage numbers back into safe ranges. There is a good reason why there are clock speed differences among the different chips binned from the same wafer. Intel will try and use every chip they can so long as the chip can fit within limits somewhere along the stack. A perfect 8 core chip may see 4 cores disabled just to correct the power curve that was making it useless as an 8 core product, and so on.
 
If I have to guess if Sony is having yield issues with PS5 that means the PS5's APU is having a large number of CUs defective that makes not possible to have more than 50% of the chips with 36CUs enabled.

Again it doesn't matter if 1000Mhz or 3000Mhz a defective CU will never works... and an active CU will works no matter the clock.
 
prinz_valium said:
So that's why every single design has the same yield and defect rates. Because they're all the same.
Sure that makes sense... I learn something new every day.

No there are no surprises, they know they have bad yield because of the design.
I never said that this is a surprise issue for Sony. It's just Bloomberg trying to sell it that way.
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You really cant learn stuff everyday as you seem to struggle.

Where did I say each design of die has same yield ? Is reading hard ?

I said with 30,000 wafers per week, the yields will be known and agreed since day 1 of full production.

You think running FinFET gates to 2.2 Ghz is a yield problem ? You realise Zen goes to 5 GHz now, the lower GPU is due to propagation delay of logic and the cooling requirements, some lower spec die might need more cooling, that will be accounted for in the engineering design.

If you think Sony would of designed a cooling solution with liquid metal and 2 patents that only works for 50 % of the die, you are an idiot.

If you want to think Sony have a worse 7nm yield than everyone else to support your FUD, well your reputation on GAF is well earned.
 
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HeisenbergFX4 said:
Being a Sony fan myself I look forward to what Sony can show me tomorrow.

What interests me the most on the Xbox side is what that 12 tf machine can do head to head vs the PS5.

I know we wont see these comparisons until well after launch but I want to see Cyberpunk and Call of Duty some of those big games what are the differences.

Plus I have always enjoyed Forza so really look forward to seeing that on the XsX.
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It's all about the driver. You can have a Lamborgini with a bad driver or a Ferrari with a good driver.
 
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DaGwaphics said:
This is very true. And there will be chips that are functional (cache, working cores, etc.) that are over acceptable limits at X clock speed (require too much voltage). Those chips will not be used for this product. However, they may be used in a lower clocked product which could bring the voltage numbers back into safe ranges. There is a good reason why there are clock speed differences among the different chips binned from the same wafer. Intel will try and use every chip they can so long as the chip can fit within limits somewhere along the stack. A perfect 8 core chip may see 4 cores disabled just to correct the power curve that was making it useless as an 8 core product, and so on.
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That is not how it works.

Marketing segmentation is a thing.
Most times you get the exactly same chip in lower products vs higher products except with some hardware or software lock to not allow the user to use the lower product chip as a higher product chip.

Unless the company hardware locked the chip you will reach the same level of a high-end chip (when the same chip)... that is why in old days (when AMD did only software lock) you could buy the lower clock product and push it over the higher clock product (eg. AMD "Barton" or the Intel "Banias").

Now use of defective chips in lower products exists at least in the begin of the production... chips with some units disabled will become cheaper units like a chip with 8 cores but 2 defectives will become a 4 cores product.
But it is very early in the mass production... when the machines are adjusted to that mass production the chips will reach a way over 90% of good yields (perfect chips) so Intel/AMD will basically use a fully functional 8 cores chips as a 4 cores chips due marketing segmentation.

That is why there are high chances to unlock 100% working disabled units in lower product CPU/GPU if the lock was made via software (via hardware is something no possible... you have the working units but can't use them).

Now if we enter in the overclock thing... well not all chips are equal so some start to fail with higher voltages and temperatures than others chips that allow better overclock even when it not delivery the proportional performance because the chip was not designed to these higher clocks.

Chip lottery happens in all segments... a lower clocked product can have a chip for better overclock than a higher clocked product... that happens a lot of time... you never saw news about AMD low end products with software update to release the locked units having better overclock potential than the K high-end model? That happens all the time in the overclock world... the K model is not always the best chip for overclockers.
 
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SlimySnake said:
i wont lie. out of all fanboys, i liked him the most. he was so sincere in his bs on both gaf and era. it sucks that he got perma'd on both sites because his nonsense always made me laugh.
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yeah he wasn't overtly anti-Sony, just really pro-MS to a ridiculous degree that he'd spread tons of fud

I found him funny too, but he wouldn't back down on things and it ended up getting him permed
 
BTW I forget to add.

Yield issues don't affect retail products... they are 100% functional in their specs.

Yield issues are a cost issue for the Foundry and their consumers (aka Sony)... it is something the Foundry and customer wants to fix ASAP because you lose money proportionally to the amount of chip you produce.
 
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Md Ray said:
So basically:

Native mode = Boost Mode: On
BC1 mode = PS4 Pro Legacy Mode (BM: Off)
BC2 mode = PS4 Legacy Mode (BM: Off)

images


Even aligns perfectly with the slide shown at the event. Thanks for that post.
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I would say that probably the "native mode" means just what is says, native mode.
If I wanted to associate this with backward compatibility, right now I'd say that it may relate more to the performance that we will see in PS4 games that are being submitted after mid-July, and not to the legacy boost mode.
Sony has dictated at end of May that all games should be submitted (and tested) with both platforms in mind.
 
ethomaz said:
Chip lottery happens in all segments... a lower clocked product can have a chip for better overclock than a higher clocked product... that happens a lot of time... you never saw news about AMD low end products with software update to release the locked units having better overclock potential than the K high-end model? That happens all the time in the overclock world... the K model is not always the best chip for overclockers.
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Absolutely, initial designs will factor in different quality levels of chips, but if demand is much greater for the "lesser" skus, obviously higher quality chips will be gimped to fit demand.

I'm not trying to be argumentative with you, I just don't agree that clockspeed is never a consideration when creating a SKU, etc. I'm sure nVidia and AMD have both released GPUs where the base specifications could have been higher, but lower numbers were used to ensure that the greatest number of chips could hit a power draw or thermal limit target.
 
PresetError said:
I don't see anything Xbox related in the frame. Care to give a clue or you were joking?
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BOX floating on the water? at 0:36 look closer I think they are trolling microsoft in this scene because this boat is going sideways and all the other boats are going forward toward a new gen.
 
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