FatKingBallman
Banned
Alex knows shit it seems
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Alex knows shit it seems
Elog
Member
People are involved in play with words which is warring at its worst. A little surprised that Alex continues to peddle in that.
Alex knows shit it seems
It is clear that the PS5 has the same functionalities from a hardware point of view with regard to mesh and VRS through the GE but it is obviously not exactly the same hardware solution that AMD has in RDNA2 for the PS5 but more or less exactly the same hardware solution as RDNA2 in the XSX. Both consoles support - with hardware - these exact functionalities. Is there a performance difference between the two? We do not know.
TheThreadsThatBindUs
Member
VRS hardware isn't some dedicated fixed function processing block. From what I gather, prior to this gen devs like the COD developer have been doing a version of VRS for years via a clever use of the already present MSAA hardware on the GPU. My understanding is that MS's VRS solution provides a tweaked version of this for a little more flexibility.
It seems Sony does VRS using a combination of the GE and Primitive shaders, so to distinguish it "software based" is pretty silly. All existing VRS implementations are mostly software based.
VRS as a concept will be mostly enabled by GPU compute, but like the Primitive/Mesh shader implementations across PS5, XSX and AMD/NVidia desktop GPUs the hardware enabling the feature will differ somewhat but will include mostly comms circuitry to allow injection of general compute into earlier parts of the graphics pipeline.
It's not like the RT hardware that has dedicated processing cores that are doing actual math. The dedicated hardware in the case of VRS and Primitive Mesh shaders is much closer to something like the ID buffer in the PS4 Pro, i.e. a functional change to enable a more flexible approach, rather than a hardware accelerator to perform an operation faster in fixed function silicon.
You're not providing an embedded ASIC to offload processing work to. It's more like opening up a new data path in hardware and software to allow more flexibility.
And with many features like VRS and mesh/primitive shaders, there are simply many ways to skin a cat, and so there can be equally many different hardware implementations (i.e. routing circuitry approaches) that all lead to the same goal of enabling the same new functionality.
And given the subject of the discussion, VRS itself is a performance optimisation. So asking questions about which hardware implementation enabling it provides the best performance is kinda missing the point. VRS as feature will save performance based on how devs apply it. So devs working on different platforms with different APIs and different software and hardware approaches to enabling the feature will lead to different results; that aren't solely an artefact of the differences in hardware implementation of the feature.
I suspect this is somewhat the issue Matt Hargaret was alluding to with his comments about VRS vs the GE. If devs can eliminate significantly more wasted GPU work using PS and the GE, they may not even bother with VRS on the PS5 version of the game and still get better performance than an XSX version using VRS alone. Fundamentally, the performance savings VRS brings are heavily scene dependent and are likely to be much less significant than the savings possible with the GE+PS/MS which are much broader in their scope of application.
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IllegalLemon
Member
Everything you need to know about architecture specifics for Rdna 2 is in here. But to simplify, it’s hardware supported within the architecture itself. Which should probably mean that both consoles have it, but the way it’s implemented/utilized differs. Series X has it baked within thanks to DX12U, PS5 doesn’t use DX12U however so I reckon Sony must’ve made their own flavor avoiding the use of the term VRS since Microsoft has that trademarked.
Shmunter
Member
That tweet is wrong. You do not need to calculate all pixels. You shoot out limited rays and interpolate and de-noise in between.
TheThreadsThatBindUs
Member
This is an alternative optimised approach to RT GI. He's talking about the traditional approach. He's not wrong. You're both right.
Regardless, the key point is that RTGI is bloody expensive. Even with denoising allowing you to reduce the per pixel ray sampling rate.
LiquidRex
Member
I'd be very surprised if the PS5 doesn't have its own version of VRS, they've invested too much in VR not to have the feature, also GE will probably handle it. Take a look at the new Bravia Engine and it's Cognitive Processor, something along those lines in the PS5 isn't out of the realms of possibility.
Riky
$MSFT
Seems to make it pretty clear, a Dev is saying it and Digital Foundry who must have their information from Devs.
LiquidRex
Member
Lunatic_Gamer
Gold Member
assurdum
Banned
Alex is obtuse as hell. Not supported VRS RDNA2 doesn't means VRS it's impossible to get. Why people continue to ask him something relative to the playstation? He is not interested in anything about it and he always uses pc argumentation. If the developers said they have their own version which worked on PS4 too, you think Alex can know more about it than them?
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TheThreadsThatBindUs
Member
He evidently has some knowledge about graphics rendering. But he isn't the subject matter expert he consistently tries to style himself as.
It's really a prototypical example of the Dunning-Kruger Effect at work.
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Lysandros
Member
Does it get as hot as a mid-high end PC GPU from five years ago?
assurdum
Banned
I don't discuss his knowledge. But every time someone ask to him something relative playstation doesn't adds anything relative to it, creating even more confusion. EG: when people ask to him about the GE on ps5 he recalled the GE on Vega like really? GE was everywhere well before Vega, what was the point? And with VRS still persists with the argumentation that RDNA 2 hardware is the only way possible. That's obtusity at this point
TheRedRiders
Member
RGT response to the PS5 die shot somehow negating the information he leaked including the PS5's GE influencing RDNA 3, he has however stated that the unified cache information came from different sources and not his regular AMD/Sony sources. In fairness his AMD leaks especially about RDNA 2 were spot on.
mejin
Member
He is one of DF staff, so everything he does and says is on purpose.
IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
Microsoft does not have VRS trademarked lol
But yes, MS has their SDK which supported VRS on nVidia Turing and now on AMD RDNA 2.
Does Sony have the same hardware from AMD? Do they just not have an SDK for it? Or do they have their own hardware (GE) for it?
Nobody knows. Everyone is making assumptions, I don't think any of them are particularly good but any of them could be true.
If I had to guess, I would guess Sony has the same hardware as AMD/XSX and either doesn't have an API yet or devs aren't using it because they are doing ports from PS4, so are just using their own software solutions.
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Bo_Hazem
Banned
ethomaz
Banned
Or you just can’t use the the DX12U implementation of VRS in PS5 and Sony doesn’t have it in their API.
You can implement hardware accelerated VRS in PS5... something you couldn’t in PS4 because it lacked the hardware units for that.
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IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
He's completely wrong there though lol.. Cerny confirmed AVX2 support in the Road to PS5.
AVX2 has been supported by AMD processors before they introduced the FPU.
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Bo_Hazem
Banned
Lysandros
Member
He can't possibly be objective or fair on anything related to a Sony console, that's against his very nature. I can't comprehend why this isn't obvious and widely accepted as such. He gave countless and priceless examples about the matter through the years. One must be completely blind to not see it.
ethomaz
Banned
That is a more light way because the hardware can’t do full GI thought RT... it is just a trick to save performance.
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carloseduardocd
Member
Setsuna Mudou
Member
VRS is the new Blast Processing it seems
Handy Fake
Member
Maybe it's not on the die?
ethomaz
Banned
Latency... it should be on die if not it is useless.
Lysandros
Member
I think that the real PS5 FPU is in the hearts of the believers.
TheRedRiders
Member
The real secret sauce was the friends we made along the way.
azertydu91
Hard to Kill
The real VRS is not the destination but the journey.
Handy Fake
Member
True true. What if they've moved it's functionality further up the pipeline like they did with GE?
I'm just spitballing here mind, I have no idea. Hehe.
Interfectum
Member
...and the friends we made along the way.
LiquidRex
Member
Remember all the talk, whispers, bollocks, whatever about Sony having thermal issues... Let's just prentend those rumours were true for this query: would it have been too late in the development process to make those cuts following Cernys Road to PS5 presentation to resolve the problem. Hypothetically speaking.
azertydu91
Hard to Kill
Yeah I wanted to say that but @villentretenmerth was faster.
Setsuna Mudou
Member
You're playing the N64 port of the game?Got an update for The Division 2. It is now foggy as fuck. Why would anyone want that? Uhh.
Interfectum
Member
Shmunter
Member
Seems to change dynamically. Loaded once, it was nighttime, another time -day and foggy as hell, 3rd time - day, less foggy ?!?Got an update for The Division 2. It is now foggy as fuck. Why would anyone want that? Uhh.
The ssr is shit, the prior bug with the cube maps obviously less accurate - but image was more stable.
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ethomaz
Banned
I don't think you can do these heavy changes (look at the size of the FPU they basically redesigned it) in few months... it was something done by AMD/Sony years ago... the silicon entered in final production in June... the ES before that already had that smaller FPU.
When Roda of PS5 happened they already have several ES in dev machines with these smaller FPUs.
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ethomaz
Banned
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Great Hair
Banned
The Madness of the PS5 Hunt
Millions of people are losing sleep and health in an attempt to snatch Sony’s latest console
IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
Xbox has all the RDNA 2 "hardware accelerated" features. PS5 doesn't.
That's the difference, and what their marketing says.
PS5 has their customizations outside of RDNA 2; and right now is outperforming XSX in most scenarios in cross gen.
This convo is just endless and will be kind of pointless for at least a year. What isn't pointless is that PS5 is performing great right now; slightly better than XSX... what the future hold's is anyone's guess.
That's the difference, and what their marketing says.
PS5 has their customizations outside of RDNA 2; and right now is outperforming XSX in most scenarios in cross gen.
This convo is just endless and will be kind of pointless for at least a year. What isn't pointless is that PS5 is performing great right now; slightly better than XSX... what the future hold's is anyone's guess.
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Werewolfgrandma
Banned
Yeah some corners need to be cut to get Price and performance wanted.
Lunatic_Gamer
Gold Member
LiquidRex
Member
Nintendo Direct Focused on 2021 Games Announced for February 17 - IGN
Nintendo has announced that a 50 minute Nintendo Direct will take place on Wednesday, February 17 at 2pm PT/5pm ET/10pm GMT and will feature "roughly 50 minutes of information focused on available games like Super #SmashBrosUltimate and games coming to #NintendoSwitch in the first half of 2021."
ethomaz
Banned
Already trying to guess which "new" Wii U game will be announced to Switch.Nintendo Direct Focused on 2021 Games Announced for February 17 - IGN
Nintendo has announced that a 50 minute Nintendo Direct will take place on Wednesday, February 17 at 2pm PT/5pm ET/10pm GMT and will feature "roughly 50 minutes of information focused on available games like Super #SmashBrosUltimate and games coming to #NintendoSwitch in the first half of 2021."www.ign.com
I can't miss that joke.
NXGamer
Member
How am I though? The Die shot shows that cut back extensions to FPU block and thus AVX2 extensions from Zen2.
Like I said in a later tweet to detail this, they could have left the Register at 128-bit so dual cycle AVX2 support, natively still present. Or cut the ISA's not needed as the entire system has off-loading De-comp/Comp anyway.
IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
So if AVX2 shouldn't exist on a CPU, why does Cerny call out their native support for it in Road to PS5, and even uses it as a justification for why they did the variable frequency tech?
He even coyly suggests that AVX2 usage shouldn't be or won't be minimal; again, pointing out that the variable frequency would maximize the potential of developers using AVX2.
And here you are having no clue that Cerny confirmed it:
And AVX2 has existed on AMD before Zen2.. the extensions aren't AMD's.. they are an extension of X86 itself. There are no "Zen 2 AVX2 extensions", just the FPU which improves their performance when the extensions are used. I don't think
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