Captain Hero
The Spoiler Soldier
Ouch
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Neo Blaster
Member
Waiting for the other kick, can't imagine what the poor guy will look like.
darkinstinct
...lacks reading comprehension.
Don't forget it is supposed to be a digital only SKU. Microsoft is making 30 % on every game sold for it, they can take higher initial losses. If it is indeed 4 TF they need to keep the price gap similar to the performance gap for people to want to buy in. A 349 4 TF Lockhart against a 499 12 TF XSX makes little sense. Especially with a potential 399 9.2 TF PS5 in the middle. XSS needs to be substantially cheaper than PS5 and even more so than XSX. Plus look at their other SKUs. They will no doubt keep selling Xbox One. You have the One S AD at 99, the One S at 149 to 199, the XSS at 249 to 299, the One X at 349 to 399 and then the XSX at 499 (with 500 GB, 599 for 1 TB). That's how I would price them. Basically an Xbox for every budget. Even a One S can play next gen games via xCloud.
darkinstinct
...lacks reading comprehension.
Do you remember the outcome? Nadella said if they are going to keep Xbox around, they would have to make big moves. Xbox is just their means of implementing the services. Like how they sell Surface devices, but what they really want to do is have others sell 2in1s and similar devices with a Windows 10 license. I am pretty sure that every penny Azure makes with PS Now in the future will be counted towards Xbox/gaming. And that will be subsidizing their own Xbox related efforts. Like Minecraft already does. It's on every platform out there and bringing in money for Xbox. They can spend that money on Game Pass, they can spend it on hardware subsidies. They currently do spend it on Game Pass to attract people, because if they are subscribed to the service they are more likely to buy into next gen hardware. Once next gen is here we will see a shift towards less Game Pass deals and possibly more direct support of the hardware. I don't think they will subsidize the XSX hardware, they also didn't do it with One X. But I can absolutely see them promoting the cheap Lockhart massively. One S AD was down to 79 € in Europe during the last holiday season. There's no way it was anywhere close to being profitable, it was just pushed into the market as a cheap Game Pass console. Lockhart will follow suit. When you can potentially make $180 a year per customer just from Game Pass Ultimate, you can afford to give the console away.
And there's also Xbox All Access. Which is an even cheaper entry point to the ecosystem. $20 a month including Game Pass Ultimate. That's $5 a month for an Xbox SAD. $8 for a One S and $16 for a One X. Currently in early access only at Amazon but it will come to all major retailers in 2020.
ANIMAL1975
Member
Thanks guys! Hope you're both right and appreciate very much your contributions to the thread!
Thanks for your insight on the matter BGs. That was a somewhat controversial but, at the same time, interestingly fair critic opinion. How much controversy do you think it will generate? Or better,... if you had to quantify, let's say, in a scale of 9.2 to 13.8 of controversy, what would be your figure? Ty
SportsFan581
Member
BGs
, I hear you. And I agree that both systems could certainly warrant $500 or $600 pricing. It's not about "complaining" about pricing. It's just about pointing out market realities. Even at $400, a strong contingent of the market will wait until the first $100 gets dropped. And even after that, some will wait for that first BF after the drop to get those $250 deals. It is what it is. People forget too that Genesis and SNES were impressive technology at that time (in the scope of gaming). Even the expensive cartridges we now make fun of offered some of the fastest data access times available (and better storage volume - 2-3mb - LOL) to consumers at that time. Consumers have a long history of expecting the same price to net them greater performance 5 - 7 years later, it's true that that is getting harder to accomplish, but that doesn't change the expectation. Not everyone has that silver spoon lodged as tightly as Jtibh's kid (jk, no malicious intent)
40% of Americans don’t have $400 in the bank for emergency expenses: Federal Reserve
Almost 40% of American adults wouldn’t be able to cover an $400 emergency with cash, savings or a credit-card charge that they could quickly pay it off, a Federal Reserve
abcnews.go.com
A $500 price shrinks your tent, a $600 price shrinks it further and so on. The first few months will go fine at any price, afterwords it's a different game.
I forgot about it not having a disk drive.
I don't see Microsoft selling that many Xbox SKUs in one go.
I think the way they will announce Lockhart is by first showing Series X, announcing the $500 expensive price, then straight after saying something like "for people who want to play the latest next generation games, have the benefit of SSD, the latest CPU, etc, but are price consious we have something for you, introducing Lockhart coming 2021 for $299"
Soon as Series X releases in holiday 2020 I think they will discontinue One X.
They will continue to sell One S. But that will be discontinued by 2022.
Then they will only support Series X and Series S (Lockhart) going forward in 2022 and onwards.
Smoke6
Member
Your post implies as if you knew Xbox IS gonna be more powerful than the PS4 in terms of Tf's or whatever. If that's your claim then can you please back it up or is it just speculation from what's being posted
Haha, man. Very little is confirmed about anything with the new consoles. Till we get something from an official source, then we're all just speculating.
Agnostic2020
Member
no i didn't mean XSX will be more powerful . I just said XSX will be specced very good. whether ps5 is ahead or behind was not my point
llien
Banned
Carefull now. I am a parent and i am in touch with reality.
So, average gamer is 35 y.o and he/she started gaming, when he/she was, wait for it, 23 y.o. Does it even remotely make sense to you? (yeah, stats are more nuanced than that, I know, my statement still stands)
Please stop projecting "I would buy it anyhow" into "it means higher price won't lead to lower sales". You will buy it even if it costs $599, now what?
Sales going down, when price goes up is a very well known phenomena. It is aggravated by existence of cheaper alternatives, which is why Sony is hesitant about announcing anything, on the one hand, they want to minimize per console losses, on the other, they don't want to cede market to MS.
I do.
Realistic price span is $449-549.
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Smoke6
Member
Ok cool you have very well written and thought out posts, I assumed you might be undercover dropping bread crumbs and shit... damnit!
Moridianae
Member
It slays me how much folks are clinging to the Github and it's subsequent extrapolation by YouTubers, etc.
Heisenberg and Osiris have both pegged the PS5 at higher than that, as well as several others who have knowledge a fair bit beyond ours.
Osiris' comment about people being upset on how close the systems will be doesnt point at 9.2 and 12.
Considering Jason Schreier's comment that both are targeting above Google 10.7, I think they're around 11 and 12, maybe even 12 and 13 by final revisions in June.
Matter of fact, I'd bet money that the final TF between the two consoles will be *less* than 1 TF(i.e 11.8 and 12.2 or even 12.6 and 13.2), which is why his statement of people being upset at no discernable difference makes the most sense.
Sony may have some troubles(if we spin the articles as such), but they didnt get to where they are by not listening or being intelligent with their strategies. A nearly 3TF difference goes against all credible information out there.
They've done a ridiculous job controlling all major leaks of this console than any time before. I'm pretty sure they'll reveal something before GDC, because they'd be hard pressed to stop it after that.
Heisenberg and Osiris have both pegged the PS5 at higher than that, as well as several others who have knowledge a fair bit beyond ours.
Osiris' comment about people being upset on how close the systems will be doesnt point at 9.2 and 12.
Considering Jason Schreier's comment that both are targeting above Google 10.7, I think they're around 11 and 12, maybe even 12 and 13 by final revisions in June.
Matter of fact, I'd bet money that the final TF between the two consoles will be *less* than 1 TF(i.e 11.8 and 12.2 or even 12.6 and 13.2), which is why his statement of people being upset at no discernable difference makes the most sense.
Sony may have some troubles(if we spin the articles as such), but they didnt get to where they are by not listening or being intelligent with their strategies. A nearly 3TF difference goes against all credible information out there.
They've done a ridiculous job controlling all major leaks of this console than any time before. I'm pretty sure they'll reveal something before GDC, because they'd be hard pressed to stop it after that.
Daniel_Mallorca1985
Member
hemo memo
You can't die before your death
darkinstinct
...lacks reading comprehension.
Not how I would do it. I would show all games running with all features enabled at 60 fps. Then at the end of the press conference I'd say: "All games you saw today were running on our entry model, Xbox Series S, launching at $299. It has all the features of our 499 high end model, just limited to 1080p. So if you don't have a 1080p TV or don't notice a huge difference between 1080p and 4K, this is the console for you. Affordable but without limitations."
That's how you sell it to customers. Not as a weaker alternative - but by selling it as the uncompromised entry model. Apparently there are no Lockhart devkits, it's only XSX. So the whole process is probably automatic.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
I thought Osiris dude well for the bait by Zhuge with the Fortnite tweet, which showed dude is a fake insider.
Jason hasn't said anything other than more better than Stadia 9.2TF is probably better than Stadia, when you look at Navi architecture GPU, SSD, RAM, CPU and etc.
Basically we don't know anything. I don't believe GitHub or the insiders like Osiris. All I believe is Series X is going to be really powerful due to the unusual big form factor and rumours of Lockhart being used as the weaker version so they can go all out with Series X. With Sony not saying anything about specs, and the rumoured BoM being $450 I just think PS5 will be weaker than Series X. However it's a question of how much weaker.
Bo_Hazem
Banned
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Captain Hero
The Spoiler Soldier
Well .. I believe in Osiris
llien
Banned
Guys, is it me, or does OP need more love?
I mean, shouldn't it be constantly updated to reflect relevant content of the thread approaching 1000 pages?
I mean, shouldn't it be constantly updated to reflect relevant content of the thread approaching 1000 pages?
A tiny part of the market does.
Microsoft openly boasted about chip size.
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HeisenbergFX4
Member
I believe in
OsirisBlack
as well and as people hate to hear this plans do in fact change and I would not under estimate the fear the Coronavirus is putting into these companies.
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Bo_Hazem
Banned
I thought Zhuge made a joke about we will hear something in Fortnite. Basically a cryptic tweet.
The all the fake insiders copied Zhuge with 2 weeks and Fortnite comments regarding PS5 reveal. Osiris was one of them.
Finally Zhuge then stated he did this as a joke, but fake insiders ran with it falling for the bait.
I'm not too familiar with Osiris, who is this guy and why is he reliable? What things did Osiris reliably leak in the past?
SportsFan581
Member
IF there is a low priced sku, I would assume that One S will be technically out of production before the new units hit the shelves, though it would probably take 12 -15 months for the channel to clear.
That's a big if, even if a low performance mode is required for certification going forward, is that just for cost reducing Xcloud (ensuring those that stream at 1080p by necessity or choice can be handled on cheaper, cooler hardware), or is this intended to facilitate a mobile variant down the road, or was the entire project a smoke screen, etc. Not a mention of anything official from MS just yet.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
I'm pretty sure Osiris's time stamp was before Zhuge, but could be misremembering.
Osiris was the first one to leak the PS4Pro.
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Sony has 3 consoles, why not 4 for MS? The embracements only affects a handful of FP games for around 12 month and casuals are not that much interested in FP at all. TP will also be released for PS4 just as they were for PS3 in 2013/2014/2015.
Casuals will also want to upgrade for better graphics and if they don't want to there is no real difference between PS4 and One S.
Gavin Stevens
Formerly 'o'dium'
PS5: 12.4TF
XSX: 11.6TF
That's why he's not "credible" to some, but Github is.
It works both ways though, as a lot of people in here refuse to believe there is any way the SX could be the higher spec console. Neither way is right at this point, and there is mixed signals about everything. But it's not just Xbox fans getting upset, as don't you dare say anything negative about Sony otherwise people get into a right roid rage and cant handle it.
At this point in time, you just can't say anything concrete, as it's just as likely the PS5 will be 9tf as it is it will be higher powered. We just don't know.
I think Microsoft's naming of the systems gives it away for different Xboxs they gave planned.
If I had to guess
PS5 - $400 - 9TF - 4K - 2020
Xbox Series X - $500 - 12TF - 4K - 2020
Xbox Series S - $350 - 1080p - 2021
Xbox Series D - $300 - 1080p - No UHD - 2022
PS4 Pro discontinued in fall 2020
Xbox One X discontinued in fall 2020
Xbox One S discontinued in 2022
Xbox One SAD discontinued in 2023
PS4 discontinued in 2025
If I had to guess
PS5 - $400 - 9TF - 4K - 2020
Xbox Series X - $500 - 12TF - 4K - 2020
Xbox Series S - $350 - 1080p - 2021
Xbox Series D - $300 - 1080p - No UHD - 2022
PS4 Pro discontinued in fall 2020
Xbox One X discontinued in fall 2020
Xbox One S discontinued in 2022
Xbox One SAD discontinued in 2023
PS4 discontinued in 2025
SportsFan581
Member
Did they? I thought they just took a picture of it.
Bo_Hazem
Banned
I think most believe it can go either way. I trust
HeisenbergFX4
as well and he favors XSX by 10% margin but all say they are pretty similar overall, which is good both ways being this close for the sake of not holding the industry back.
ArcaneNLSC
Member
Gavin Stevens
Formerly 'o'dium'
I think most believe it can go either way. I trust
I trust
HeisenbergFX4
as well, as he comes off more accurate, more professional, and more real. He could be full of shit for all I know, but he's not shown a serious edge of bias like other people. He's told it straight each time.However, and I'll reiterate the same point I've said a hundred times, people want these consoles to be close as possible. You absolutely do NOT want a massive gap, or worse, a larger gap, than before. That would cause head aches and games on the whole would suffer. it doesn't matter which one is 10% better, that's such a stupid figure that you won't even see it without DF coming in and doing a 400% zoom, while timing a blade of grass loading 0.675msec quicker on the one machine. To everybody out there playing the games, it won't even be seen.
So it really doesn't matter which machine is "best" now, and that's fan-bloody-tastic. A win win for all of us.
But right now, you can't make a solid bet on which will get that small stupidly not even important win, and so people are looking for that winning edge any way they can.
I just think Sony went for the conventional route of making the next generation system.
They probably have a conventional form factor though extra focus on better cooling. They probably targeted the standard $400 price though probably gonna have to take a bigger hit due to DRAM shortages.
While Microsoft went the unconventional route of making a PC tower like design. And making Lockhart to offset the expensive price of Series X.
By isolation if PS5 is 8-9TF it's still a huge upgrade to PS4 and is a traditional leap in terms of power. However because Microsoft went unconventional and have the possibility of having a 12TF they may take the power crown but not only a slight margin but quite a huge percentage. In the end this won't matter for casuals and that's why Microsoft also have Lockhart.
This is all my opinion based on rumours and the design of the Series X.
They probably have a conventional form factor though extra focus on better cooling. They probably targeted the standard $400 price though probably gonna have to take a bigger hit due to DRAM shortages.
While Microsoft went the unconventional route of making a PC tower like design. And making Lockhart to offset the expensive price of Series X.
By isolation if PS5 is 8-9TF it's still a huge upgrade to PS4 and is a traditional leap in terms of power. However because Microsoft went unconventional and have the possibility of having a 12TF they may take the power crown but not only a slight margin but quite a huge percentage. In the end this won't matter for casuals and that's why Microsoft also have Lockhart.
This is all my opinion based on rumours and the design of the Series X.
Disco_
Member
DUV is not the more direct path to 5nm. If you start out with 7nm duv, what we have now, you then move to 7np and then either 5nm or 6nm(which is scheduled to come after 5nm) then you are compatible with 5nm and you can port to that. With euv, 7nm+ which is ready for mass market later this year, you go straight to 5nm euv. 7np and 6nm were made for those that jumped to 7nm early and needed a way to transition to euv without reconfiguring their existing hardware.
If xsx is euv, a ~400mm2 die as was shown would suggest ~490mm2 on 7nm. That's enough for ~80cu and I believe that's accounting for CU size increase due to RT.
If we give any credibility to bloomberg, that means neither console is 7nm+ or both are. If both are, what is xsx doing with the remaining >20cu?
For future reference, 7nm and 7nm+ incompatibility was brought up early last year, it is known. People just tend to ignore it and the discussion never ends.
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Mass Shift
Member
True, but there's a confident vibe coming from them that wasn't present in any form in 2013. Back then they announced a reveal, then pushed it back to May, only invited a tiny few, shared no relevant specs, showed us fake Kinect functions, talked cloud power that didn't exist, limited access and tried to project confidence going into E3.
We all saw through it.
They seem very optimistic this time. Very sure of themselves and anxious to share what they've co-engineered with AMD. It's good to see, no matter whose specs come out, they made an honest effort this time round. And nobody is picking them for the win.
ThaMonkeyClaw
Member
I don't have disposable income, I'm not a millionaire, just a simple spoon salesman. I'm married, mortgage, 3.5 year old girl etc...
But I've got no problem dropping £500 on these things, day one, for both. I'm not waiting out a year just incase they drop it £20.
People have to remember that these things are going to be damn good machines, yes, even the paltry 16 generation old slow weak sauce 9.2tf PS5.Sit down, joke, chill out Sony tits.
So what you're getting is bloody fantastic. Plus as said, this thing will last you half a decade at the very least.
You can't just compare them to phones you have for a year because now the standard time you have a phone is two years, and even then, you pay monthly on your contract.
But I CAN compare it to other things. I just dropped £700 on a new bed for my daughter, which she will undoubtably destroy within a week because she's a freak of nature and is a clear foot taller than anybody else in her nursery. I spent £3k on a holiday for us all recently that lasted a week. Hell I spent £200 for some dodgy guy to come around and wallpaper our stairs.
£500 is pennies for what you get.
It's the age old discussion for us too of price vs enjoyment. Disregard the spec difference, because to me, spec means bugger all compared to the experience. You go to the cinema, and pay £15+£15 for tickets and then another £25 for food and drink, this lasts like 2 hours. So for 2 hours fun I just paid £55... which is crazy BAD value. (Hell, I build my own computers every time, you want to talk bad value for money!)
What you get from these machines is waaaaaaay better value. I understand people may not be in the position to have both, or even one, and taking the piss out of these people is a bit sad really. Not everybody has the same financial status, some people here are actual KIDS, without a job even. That's a totally different discussion.
But £500 it's a steal for what you are getting. They could quite easily charge more, even. The problem they have is charging enough to keep it going while not too much that they price themselves out of the market. And this is totally out of my realm of expertise haha. If it was me, I would take a big loss on the hardware, and sell that 12tf Xbox at £399.99 knowing I would make up the loss in other areas. But then, there's a reason I'm not running a multi million dollar business
Brilliantly said! And I totally understand about that daughter bed situation, when mine was around that age she decided to chew up the $500 bed frame we just bought her, so that hit close to home! Lol! Also, how do you put wallpaper on your stairs? I might need to see a pic of this?
EliteSmurf
Member
I know its not the majority but it still is a lot of potential sales for both companies.
Captain Hero
The Spoiler Soldier
I'm excited about three things the 1st is PS5 reveale , the 2nd is the last of us part 2 and the 3rd is that game which I can't say but I'm just going to pretend I never hint anything about it ..
Anyway..
OsirisBlack
HeisenbergFX4
and
BGs
those guys I can tell they are telling what they know not what they hear from a distance ..
Anyway..
OsirisBlack
HeisenbergFX4
and
BGs
those guys I can tell they are telling what they know not what they hear from a distance ..
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ResilientBanana
Member
It's not that. It's the fact that Osiris is wrong about 99% of the time.PS5: 12.4TF
XSX: 11.6TF
That's why he's not "credible" to some, but Github is
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
I think its the opposite. Ms typically goes with conventional design while Sony thinks outside the box. The emotion engine, the cell, 4kcb in the pro instead of brute forcing native 4k like the x1x.
Even the ps4 which was pretty orthodox went all in on gddr5 even though it was extremely expensive.
The giant computer case design isn't unconventional either. It's anything but.
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gaming_noob
Member
Bo_Hazem
Banned
Facts:
- We didn't see the retail form factor of the PS5.
- We didn't see the PS5 chip.
Thoughts:
I think both are using the same chip size, but if Sony is 10% less TF then they probably went with more RT, resulting a better performance with RT fueled with superior SSD speeds. Sony would undercut MS if it was the more powerful.
It's a speculation thread, why not speculate
- We didn't see the retail form factor of the PS5.
- We didn't see the PS5 chip.
Thoughts:
I think both are using the same chip size, but if Sony is 10% less TF then they probably went with more RT, resulting a better performance with RT fueled with superior SSD speeds. Sony would undercut MS if it was the more powerful.
It's a speculation thread, why not speculate
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Disco_
Member
They were still running around with "most powerful console" after ps4 specs were revealed.
You show confidence no matter what, not just when you know you've got the others beat.
Bo_Hazem
Banned
What's with this aggressive attitude with new little girls
I'm planning to switch to wireless headset for the next one coming for the 3D Audio from Sony, although I love my Astro A40, because my 1.5y daughter keeps pulling and chewing the wires
geordiemp
Member
Some of the mental gynastics in this thread is hilarious.
Phil farts so must be 12 TF, shu sneezes so muct mean 13 TF.
Memory prices are on the rise, both will use memory, but thats a negative for one company as my brain bloody hurts.
If XSX and Ps5 are the same, they will both be either $500 or $600, as compenies exist to make money for shareholders IMO.
If one of the next gen consoles is stronger, it will be $ 50 / $ 100 more for sure, there is no secret sauce this gen, both APU from AMD Navi and both using same memory, small differences in box and cooling is neglible.
Phil farts so must be 12 TF, shu sneezes so muct mean 13 TF.
Memory prices are on the rise, both will use memory, but thats a negative for one company as my brain bloody hurts.
If XSX and Ps5 are the same, they will both be either $500 or $600, as compenies exist to make money for shareholders IMO.
If one of the next gen consoles is stronger, it will be $ 50 / $ 100 more for sure, there is no secret sauce this gen, both APU from AMD Navi and both using same memory, small differences in box and cooling is neglible.
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