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[M1chl]

I think the issue is, whenever the GPU is accessing the slow 3.5GB for games, that entire memory chip slows down to 336GB/s. At which point you've effectively got 4GB of GDDR6 at 560GB/s, and the remaining 9.5GB at 336GB/s.

No I don't think that the case, since speed is still the same and one chip is 56GB/s it just uses less chips in parallel. I am sure that the memory is going to be virtually split in to two pools. And based on how fast you need the data that many "lanes"/"threads" will be used on the memory controller.

 

[Omega Supreme Holopsicon]

That's your standard. Not mine. For me they both need to be considered. The games that can do both are the most impressive to me.

Well, if one of the latest pixar films ran in real time at 480p 30fps you wouldn't consider it better looking than most any game? How about footage from real life at 480p 30fps?

I highly doubt that.

The games may be more impressive by also being 4k and high framerate, but that does not necessarily mean better looking.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Cerny has really stuck to his strategy SSD, Audio,

I agree with you that long term it's probably a bad strategy but they're probably still in the experimental phase and looking at games on a case-by-case basis. If they're not happy with the results of Horizon 2 and GoW2 and they aren't attracting enough PC users over to PlayStation, I reckon they'll pivot. They haven't committed to that strategy it as of yet.

That PC Beggar is probably spreading BS, it's the case as well:

Dreams - PS4 Games | PlayStation

Explore the adventure game Dreams for console from the official PlayStation website. View features, game modes, videos & more. Buy on the PlayStation store now.

www.playstation.com

Ghost of Tsushima - PS4 and PS5 Games | PlayStation

Explore Action/Adventure game Ghost of Tsushima on PS4 and PS5. View info on all editions to buy, game detail, merchandise, videos & images and more. Shop now.

www.playstation.com

The Last of Us™ Part I - PS5 Games | PlayStation

Experience the emotional storytelling and unforgettable characters in The Last of Us rebuilt for the PlayStation®5 console.

www.thelastofus.playstation.com

 

[VanSiriusGabriel]

That's your standard. Not mine. For me they both need to be considered. The games that can do both are the most impressive to me.

Couldn't care less about details at this point.
Details are for trailers, better use the tech for expanding gameplay and interactivity. Graphics will improve anyway.
At this point in time, I completely refuse to play another corridor game with mediocre puzzle elements, but with good graphic.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Nah old God Of War >>>>>>> NORSE God Of War

Played all of them, the new one is the nearest game ever made to the word (PERFECTION). But you know, opinions differ.

 

[Audiophile]

The real secret sauce:

+

 

[VanSiriusGabriel]

Played all of them, the new one is the nearest game ever made to the word (PERFECTION). But you know, opinions differ.

There is definitely room to improve, but it's a more complex, refined and bigger game than any other in the old saga imho. It's a game built from 0, basically a new IP, so they did a great job as a start.

 

[CJY]

Care to share what exactly is going to be a compromise, nothing in memory is accessed by accident, nothing is loaded by accident And since graphics calculation and processing calculation is already split differently in code, even at the low level. I do not see really the issue and besides I am sure that engines going to already have a scheduler for this. Programming without any sort of API is long dead for this to be an issue.

I'm not really speaking of compromise from a programming perspective only, but mainly from a system design and RAM quantity point of view. Would you not say more RAM is better? Consistent RAM speed across the entire pool is better? Maybe as you say schedulers and API make this all invisible to the dev, but it strikes me as a compromise nonetheless from a system design POV.

 

[CJY]

I'll take a $100 bet with anyone that we're not going to see any 1st party AAA Sony Games (brand new, not remaster/remake) launch day-and-date with the console release across the entirety of the next generation and I have no insider info.

 

[ethomaz]

I'm not sure I follow. Do you mind explaining this a bit more?

How I will say...
You will need to access that part of the RAM anyway even if it was a fast access.
The difference is that you access less data than the others parts so if you put non critical data required in real-time for the render you will be fine.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Not yet, but there will be at the end of the year. Phison will offer a 7GB/s controller at the end of the year. The problem with those SSDs is the heat. For example the Samsung 970 Pro reduces its read spead after about 120 seconds of constant reading from 3.5GB/s to ~2.5GB/s. Like even the Corsair MP600 with its massive cooler hits 50-60°C and without that cooler it hits almost 85°C.

Depends, mine even with stress tests barely comes close to 59C. But first you peel off the sticker before placing it inside your system, and probably because my case blows with 3 fans from underneath keeps it pretty cool without a heatsink. The second cooler one is a SATA SSD behind the motherboard.

 

[EliteSmurf]

is this true ? i think it's too early

False alarm I guess .

 

[M1chl]

I'm not really speaking of compromise from a programming perspective only, but mainly from a system design and RAM quantity point of view. Would you not say more RAM is better? Consistent RAM speed across the entire pool is better? Maybe as you say schedulers and API make this all invisible to the dev, but it strikes me as a compromise nonetheless from a system design POV.

Compromise, to make it work is probably better compromise, MASSIVE compromise. I wouldn't say so. And if they are made it work through API, so that's it's actually beneficial to not have a split RAM pool, then it's probably better solution than slower speed across the board. Sure it will be better to run at unified speed, but if DF is anything to go by, they did this because of signal crosstalk. In that case it's pretty good compromise.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

There is definitely room to improve, but it's a more complex, refined and bigger game than any other in the old saga imho. It's a game built from 0, basically a new IP, so they did a great job as a start.

It's been too limited due to PS4, imagine how limited XSX games are going to be for the next 2 years. It'll at least consider PC's if not Lockhart 4TF.

The next God of War should expand a lot! People will melt if they see the next GOW.

 

[CJY]

How I will say...
You will need to access that part of the RAM anyway even if it was a fast access.
The difference is that you access less data than the others parts so if you put non critical data required in real-time for the render you will be fine.

So it's not a massive limitation as such, except for having less of the fast RAM overall. Would you call XSX RAM setup compromised versus PS5?

 

[quest]

Just like MS, Sony is looking beyond hardware. Hardware doesn't make as much money and cost a ton in R&D for hardware, the components, and the potential for huge losses. It's about having an ecosystem that's available on as many platforms as possible (mobile, PC,consoles,smart tv) etc...They are also putting all future MLB The Show games on Xbox and other platforms.

Like or not.

Problem is your trading a 100% of a digotal sale at 60 dollars for 70% at 20 dollars or less. The PC market is the cheapest and most patient out there they only buy from gabe and with deep discounts. It is not a market worth chasing when your consoles are selling a 100 million. You make a little money upfront but lose in the long wrong run less console sales with day 1 sales from your store.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Would you say it feels like Sony went for "expanded RAM" approach and MS went for the "faster storage" approach from what you can gather?

When that RAM of the XSX chokes with real next gen games from 3rd party, we'll see some real funny comparisons. 16GB honestly seems like a gamble for next gen, it should've been 24GB at least for both, but Sony has lesser problem in that regard.

 

[Audiophile]

The ideal solution would have been 8 16Gbps 2GB chips on a 256-bit bus for 16GB @ 512GB/s or 10 14Gbps 2GB chips for 20GB @ 560Gb/s.

Or even better, HBM2E..

Both clearly made cost-cutting decisions, both have their advantages and disadvantages, Sony's solution is easier, more flexible and provides a middleground. While MS' will fare better when reduced complexity and framebuffer sizes are required; and with greater optimisations.

Both solutions are compromises and I expect them to each pose a minor bottleneck in the long run. RAM chips are relatively speaking one of the easiest changes to make at this point, so here's hoping (though it's very unlikely). I think they should bite the bullet and push it to 8*16Gbps 2GB and 10*14Gbps 2GB respectively....with CPU access, GPU access, RT and contention to deal with they're both gonna cause issues in my opinion.

Sony have yet to mention OS reserves so a part of me is still hopeful for either a small pool of slow DDR4 for the OS or a smart swapping solution for the OS footprint given the I/O speed.

As for MS, I fail to see what they're doing. They're gimping their system over the cost-benefit ratio of 6*2GB + 4*1GB vs 10*2GB. They would have been much better off making a compromise elsewhere such as CU count, but no, they had to market 12TF...


The cool thing at least is that Sony have taken care of the fundamentals that effect games design up front such as the SDD, I/O, a CPU with only a negligible disadvantage and a universal, end-to-end audio solution. If they want to push more pixels, frames and fx in the future those things can be properly scaled should there be mid gen upgrades.

It's a smarter approach, take care of the function first and allow enthusiasts to upgrade the form later on.

 

[LordOfChaos]

Played all of them, the new one is the nearest game ever made to the word (PERFECTION). But you know, opinions differ.

I agree it was the best GoW game yet. My biggest complaint was all the waiting you did moving between worlds on the world tree and also slow "elevators", so the next GoW on next gen with this SSD is going to be amazing.

 

[quest]

The ideal solution would have been 8 16Gbps 2GB chips on a 256-bit bus for 16GB @ 512GB/s or 10 14Gbps 2GB chips for 20GB @ 560Gb/s.

Or even better, HBM2E..

Both clearly made cost-cutting decisions, both have their advantages and disadvantages, Sony's solution is easier, more flexible and provides a middleground. While MS' will fare better when reduced complexity and framebuffer sizes are required; and with greater optimisations.

Both solutions are compromises and I expect them to each pose a minor bottleneck in the long run. RAM chips are relatively speaking one of the easiest changes to make at this point, so here's hoping (though it's very unlikely). I think they should bite the bullet and push it to 8*16Gbps 2GB and 10*14Gbps 2GB respectively....with CPU access, GPU access, RT and contention to deal with they're both gonna cause issues in my opinion.

Sony have yet to mention OS reserves so a part of me is still hopeful for either a small pool of slow DDR4 for the OS or a smart swapping solution for the OS footprint given the I/O speed.

As for MS, I fail to see what they're doing. They're gimping their system over the cost-benefit ratio of 6*2GB + 4*1GB vs 10*2GB. They would have been much better off making a compromise elsewhere such as CU count, but no, they had to market 12TF...

It would of been nice to have 20 gigs but costs. In the digital foundry video Microsoft admits to having issues with signals at higher speeds hence the funky solution that they are making a lot of bandaids for but are transparent about it. I'm sure Sony had the same issues hence the slower ram chips and not the faster ones we all thought 16 or 18.

 

[PaintTinJr]

When that RAM of the XSX chokes with real next gen games from 3rd party, we'll see some real funny comparisons. 16GB honestly seems like a gamble for next gen, it should've been 24GB at least for both, but Sony has less problem in that regard.

Even if the XsX had been 336GB/s memory bandwidth, it is still really fast memory, and if both consoles are able to bypass existing bottlenecks to remove GPU data redundancy and increase GDDR6 utilisation per Field of Vision, then 16GB is a massive amount, still (IMHO)..

 

[Metroiddarks]

I just expect Sony increment that Ram speed because that if for me the main bottleneck.

Also I lost my hope in saw a game using raytracing in the same level as XSX but since time ago
I don't have much faith in any console so at least one of them should has a decent level.

 

[SmokSmog]

Xbox SX has 512Bit bus ? 320Bit for gpu and 192Bit for cpu.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

I agree it was the best GoW game yet. My biggest complaint was all the waiting you did moving between worlds on the world tree and also slow "elevators", so the next GoW on next gen with this SSD is going to be amazing.

I'm personally so sad about the reviews of Days Gone, it was one of the best games I've ever played, gameplay so good, graphically amazing, music, difficulty pretty balanced, the story and how it's represented feels so natural that I've never experienced anything near that level of "convincing" acting even in movies/series.

This soundtrack just makes you nervous when you approach a massive horde:



And when they notice you and come after you:



I can't imagine how many freakers can be there on PS5

Spoiler

I hate zombie games, so that's something.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

I just expect Sony increment that Ram speed because that if for me the main bottleneck.

Also I lost my hope in saw a game using raytracing in the same level as XSX but since time ago
I don't have much faith in any console so at least one of them should has a decent level.

Don't lose faith this too early, mate. Wait for them to show up. And that Godfall is just nothing to relate to although it looks decent.

 

[ethomaz]

So it's not a massive limitation as such, except for having less of the fast RAM overall. Would you call XSX RAM setup compromised versus PS5?

That only a game developer can say and I believe it is game per game case.
I guess games that needs more than 10GB of fast RAM will require a better management from the devs.

 

[SonGoku]

Sony should start a a kickstarter to get those much needed 18Gbps chips or at the very least 16Gbps

 

[megreotsugua]

That's alot of assumptions made off of generlizations here. Me doing the same, assumes that the compute advantage will win out on rasterization and rt and noticeably so. All of the vrr, mesh shading, SSD benefits, etc.. will be on the XSX as well.

Again, while I absolutely could be proven wrong, it sounds like the same rationalizing that xbox fans made back in 2013. This causes me to be very skeptical

Diminishing returns. XSX's 18% compute advantage is nothing and negligible considering PS5 GPU is faster.

The ultra fast SSD will not compensate for the lack of compute. It can't do that. But that advantage can be used to show greater detail and megatextures everywhere provided developers make use of that.

It's easily verifiable. You can crank up your PC games to highest texture resolution without performance penalty. All you need is that the large textures fit in your RAM or your SSD can stream them fast enough.

So the faster the GPU can be fed with data, the higher and more varied the texture is possible.

Insane details and texel density everywhere at every turn.

 

[ethomaz]

Xbox SX has 512Bit bus ? 320Bit for gpu and 192Bit for cpu.

There is only one bus... 320bits... it is shared by CPU and GPU.

 

[SonGoku]

Evilms Do you still have that memory chips bandwidth chart?

 

[VFXVeteran]

I agree with you that long term it's probably a bad strategy but they're probably still in the experimental phase and looking at games on a case-by-case basis. If they're not happy with the results of Horizon 2 and GoW2 and they aren't attracting enough PC users over to PlayStation, I reckon they'll pivot. They haven't committed to that strategy it as of yet.

What do you know about Sony's plans? Do you work at a Sony-owned studio?

 

[CJY]

What do you know about Sony's plans? Do you work at a Sony-owned studio?

Nope. Do you?

 

[VFXVeteran]

Nope. Do you?

I know enough to know that's not what they are thinking.

 

[CJY]

I know enough to know that's not what they are thinking.

*facepalm*. You have to be one of my most unfavourite posters on here with the way you love to say things without actually saying anything like some faux-insider, like your opinion matters more than everybody else's. It's frankly just strange to me.


Anyway, when I actually, when I say they "haven't committed", it's true. Not in the same way as MS have. Point is, nobody knows and I doubt they even know internally at Sony. Why would they know? They've got 3 million copies of Death Stranding sitting in warehouses unsold.

You keep trying to (not so subtle-y hint) that Sony have this grand strategy to release all their games on PC and "become a brand instead of just hardware". I call bullshit.

Edit: and I don't care what you think you know. Things can change on a dime in business.

 

[M-V2]

Imho, ray tracing is overrated (not saying it's not cool but overrated) it's demanding tech on the hardware, imo next gen should have held on this tech, until it becomes common & more GPU's can handle it properly.

 

[Metroiddarks]

Don't lose faith this too early, mate. Wait for them to show up. And that Godfall is just nothing to relate to although it looks decent.

Yeah I think both consoles will just use some specific geometry to interact with the rays, that should help a lot.... we also need to see how good will looks like games like
Batttlefield, Assasins Creed, Resident evil, Final Fantasy etc.

 

[Metroiddarks]

Sony should start a a kickstarter to get those much needed 18Gbps chips or at the very least 16Gbps

 

[megreotsugua]

I know enough to know that's not what they are thinking.

It's a corporate decision. It doesn't matter what your developer friends in the industry think.

Sony is smart enough not to give up their exclusive advantage. Hermen Hulst already made a clear statement regarding that. I don't know why people are still debating this.

Ah, FUD.

 

[VFXVeteran]

*facepalm*. You have to be one of my most unfavourite posters on here with the way you love to say things without actually saying anything like some faux-insider, like your opinion matters more than everybody else's. It's frankly just strange to me.

Not my opinion but facts. And I don't feel the unfavorite poster vibe. I haven't been trolled ever since the PS5 specs came out and the announcement of Horizon: Zero Dawn for PC.

I may be despised by some for not saying things people want to hear but that's OK.

I just don't like seeing language from people who act like they work right beside the people making decisions. If you were to say "my thoughts are.." or "I hope that Sony..." etc.. that would be OK. It's just annoying to make statements that I know are blatantly false.

 

[Audiophile]

I think if Sony are going to such lengths to create such a fast, highly parallel SSD + I/O Pipleline, they probably want to take advantage of it in the development of their first party titles.

With that being the case, they're likely to wait some time before PS5 games come to PC. As fast, highly parallel SSD drives will not be commonplace and mandating them will massively limit the user base and the subsequent cost-benefit ratio of bringing them to the PC platform.

I suspect HZD is coming to PC because they want to drum up interest for the PS platform and a sequel, plus it's designer around a HDD which is the minimum every PC user has. I suspect Death Stranding is coming to PC due to it being from an effective Second Party studio; and it too is designed around a HDD.

Once drives with appropriate overhead are commonplace I expect to see more PS5 titles arriving on PC, but I believe they will be built and optimised PS5 first and foremost; and will still likely come 6-18mths later to maintain the draw of the platform in the short to mid term.

 

[longdi]

Not my opinion but facts. And I don't feel the unfavorite poster vibe. I haven't been trolled ever since the PS5 specs came out and the announcement of Horizon: Zero Dawn for PC.

I may be despised by some for not saying things people want to hear but that's OK.

I just don't like seeing language from people who act like they work right beside the people making decisions. If you were to say "my thoughts are.." or "I hope that Sony..." etc.. that would be OK. It's just annoying to make statements that I know are blatantly false.

You have been the most accurate insider thus far.

About HZD and 1080 to 1080ti difference in performance.

I love my 1080ti, it still runs games like fine wine. 1080 is struggling now. Big CU part have always have more secret sauce leftover.

 

[CJY]

Not my opinion but facts. And I don't feel the unfavorite poster vibe. I haven't been trolled ever since the PS5 specs came out and the announcement of Horizon: Zero Dawn for PC.

I may be despised by some for not saying things people want to hear but that's OK.

I just don't like seeing language from people who act like they work right beside the people making decisions. If you were to say "my thoughts are.." or "I hope that Sony..." etc.. that would be OK. It's just annoying to make statements that I know are blatantly false.

Well, I think it's pretty clear from the words "I reckon"... It's a speculation thread. That's what we're doing here and analyzing based on public knowledge and rumours.

You need to let up on that bullshit attitude of yours. I doubt you're despised by many on here, but I certainly do.

It's frankly ridiculous this idea you're trying to spin that Sony wants to get out of the hardware business when they're on the cusp of launching maybe their most important console yet in the face of stiff competition from MS. Sure, they're hedging their bets, like any decent company would do, but seriously, they way you're portraying things is just annoying.

 

[megreotsugua]

I think if Sony are going to such lengths to create such a fast, highly parallel SSD + I/O Pipleline, they probably want to take advantage of it in the development of their first party titles.

With that being the case, they're likely to wait some time before PS5 games come to PC. As fast, highly parallel SSD drives will not be commonplace and mandating them will massively limit the user base and the subsequent cost-benefit ratio of bringing them to the PC platform.

Well, they can require 64GB or more of RAM for the game to run.

But yeah I don't see Sony releasing their PS5 game to PC and giving up their advantage. They can probably do that when the PS6 is released.

I don't know why people are not paying attention to Hermen Hulst.

 

[VFXVeteran]

I think if Sony are going to such lengths to create such a fast, highly parallel SSD + I/O Pipleline, they probably want to take advantage of it in the development of their first party titles.

With that being the case, they're likely to wait some time before PS5 games come to PC. As fast, highly parallel SSD drives will not be commonplace and mandating them will massively limit the user base and the subsequent cost-benefit ratio of bringing them to the PC platform.

I suspect HZD is coming to PC because they want to drum up interest for the PS platform and a sequel, plus it's designer around a HDD which is the minimum every PC user has. I suspect Death Stranding is coming to PC due to it being from an effective Second Party studio; and it too is designed around a HDD.

Once drives with appropriate overhead are commonplace I expect to see more PS5 titles arriving on PC, but I believe they will be built and optimised PS5 first and foremost; and will still likely come 6-18mths later to maintain the draw of the platform in the short to mid term.

That is literally impossible to predict. That's not going to happen. There is no factual way of concluding , "Hey guys.. it's been 2-3yrs since Horizon Zero Dawn 2 was released on the PS5, surely the average PC user owns a Samsung EVO 850 PCIe 4.0 7GB/s SSD so we can release the port!"

The Sony SSD isn't going to make a game impossible to run on the PC.

 

[Audiophile]

Imho, ray tracing is overrated (not saying it's not cool but overrated) it's demanding tech on the hardware, imo next gen should have held on this tech, until it becomes common & more GPU's can handle it properly.

While its implementation while likely be far from ideal -- at least to begin with -- I think it's important to get it into mainstream [console] platforms which represent the baseline; sooner rather than later. This will allow innovation, standardisation and optimisation unlike anything we've seen yet. For all we know, those RT cores could be used to accelerate things we haven't even dreamt of yet.

In the mid to long term this will mean more effective implementations across the board and the tech advancing far faster than it otherwise could be. This will also mean devs can reap the benefits of increased efficiency and reduced workload when having RT as the only solution for a give component of a game (GI, Emissives, Reflections, AO, Shadows, Audio etc.) rather than having to create backup rasterization solutions for lesser platforms as a backup.

For eg. who knew that when morphological AA came about 10 or so years ago that such concepts would evolve into the jitter,+aa+motion blur+reconstruction layered on top of dynamic resolution scaling to produce an effect that gives you 80-90% of the results from 50-60% fo the horsepower.

The necessity of trickery and optimisation on consoles reap vast benefits.

 

[VFXVeteran]

Well, I think it's pretty clear from the words "I reckon"... It's a speculation thread. That's what we're doing here and analyzing based on public knowledge and rumours.

You need to let up on that bullshit attitude of yours. I doubt you're despised by many on here, but I certainly do.

It's frankly ridiculous this idea you're trying to spin that Sony wants to get out of the hardware business when they're on the cusp of launching maybe their most important console yet in the face of stiff competition from MS. Sure, they're hedging their bets, like any decent company would do, but seriously, they way you're portraying things is just annoying.

Like I said, people despise me for not liking what I say.. and that's OK.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Yeah I think both consoles will just use some specific geometry to interact with the rays, that should help a lot.... we also need to see how good will looks like games like
Batttlefield, Assasins Creed, Resident evil, Final Fantasy etc.

I was in love with ray tracing against most of the insanity and memes happened against NVIDIA, but I would easily take what Quixel showed without ray tracing as well. Mild ray tracing implementation would be a thing, mid-gen refreshes should boost that easily later on.

 

[megreotsugua]

the average PC user owns a Samsung EVO 850 PCIe 4.0 7GB/s SSD so we can release the port!".

It's not only the SSD raw speed. Cerny explained that in the video. The decompressor alone is as fast as 9 Zen 2 Cores. The DMA is two Zen 2 cores. The other custom chips in there to ensure that data in the SSD will be ready in less than a second. No bottleneck. (Look at XSX loading times, it's 9 seconds despite being 50% slower than PS5's SSD.)

How to do you think those bottlenecks in the I/O will be addressed in the PC space? Will AMD and Nvidia start building similar custom chips in their GPU? I guess that's possible.

 

[CJY]

Like I said, people despise me for not liking what I say.. and that's OK.

It's not what you say, it's how you say it.

If you know, for a fact, that Sony's intention is to move out of the hardware business... firstly, I wouldn't mind and secondly, I wouldn't want to hear it from you because it adds nothing to conversation and it's not relevant to what this thread is about at all... Which is next-gen consoles. Consoles... hardware.

Instead, you're talking about things 10 years out at a minimum. Again, I call bullshit, and I don't care what you think you know and your interpretation of what you think you know.

 

[M-V2]

While its implementation while likely be far from ideal -- at least to begin with -- I think it's important to get it into mainstream [console] platforms which represent the baseline; sooner rather than later. This will allow innovation, standardisation and optimisation unlike anything we've seen yet. For all we know, those RT cores could be used to accelerate things we haven't even dreamt of yet.

In the mid to long term this will mean more effective implementations across the board and the tech advancing far faster than it otherwise could be. This will also mean devs can reap the benefits of increased efficiency and reduced workload when having RT as the only solution for a give component of a game (GI, Emissives, Reflections, AO, Shadows, Audio etc.) rather than having to create backup rasterization solutions for lesser platforms as a backup.

For eg. who knew that when morphological AA came about 10 or so years ago that such concepts would evolve into the jitter,+aa+motion blur+reconstruction layered on top of dynamic resolution scaling to produce an effect that gives you 80-90% of the results from 50-60% fo the horsepower.

The necessity of trickery and optimisation on consoles reap vast benefits.

While I agree with you, but mark my words with that ray tracing thing you're gonna play most of your games at 30fps