AveragePhoenix
Member
Not what I have seen, but ok I guess.
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Sosokrates
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We know this about the tempest engine, we dont know what the audio solution for the xsx is, apart from a ninja theory dev saying its a seperate chip, but i dont take that as a confirmation.
FranXico
Member
You do know that there is such a thing as separate chips running on the same clock, right?
saintjules
Member
More into it:
It's suggesting that the company that Sony was trying to strike a deal with to implement software-based ray-tracing for current PS4 games might be Crytek. This could represent the HDR implementation/emulation on SDR, non-HDR games. Pretty interesting stuff, and could as well help to minimize the ray tracing penalty in future next gen gaming to have a hybrid solution.
PS4 Will Receive Software-Based Ray-Tracing for Crysis Remake
More into it: It's suggesting that the company that Sony was trying to strike a deal with to implement software-based ray-tracing for current PS4 games might be Crytek. This could represent something like the HDR implementation/emulation on SDR, non-HDR games. Pretty interesting stuff, and...www.neogaf.com
So similar to what Series X is doing?
Bo_Hazem
Banned
We know this about the tempest engine, we dont know what the audio solution for the xsx is, apart from a ninja theory dev saying its a seperate chip, but i dont take that as a confirmation.
Yes, and it's capable of real-time 3D audio ray tracing which needs a GPU-based engine as reported by AMD, capable of freeing CPU/GPU, with raytracing might be inside the engine or using the GPU RT cores. The XSX so far is a pre-backed 3D audio solution, with further calculations freeing the main CPU only. It can be considered freeing the GPU as well for not using real-time ray tracing for the audio.
Probably yes. But that's in PS4 so far.
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Thirty7ven
Banned
As far as I recall the latest Hitman was used as a point of comparison, a game that is cpu bound. It was a bit of a weird one honestly.
xHunter
Member
We know this about the tempest engine, we dont know what the audio solution for the xsx is, apart from a ninja theory dev saying its a seperate chip, but i dont take that as a confirmation.
Ok lets say they took one of the GPUs CUs and made it into the Tempest Engine. How do they come up with the 10.28 TF number now? You cant get to this figure with 35 CUs at 2.23Ghz.
Sosokrates
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So theres a seperate audio chip with 1 compute unit running at 2.23ghz?
Is that even possible? Not to mention the extra heat and power it would utilize on a chip that is already hot and power hungry.
FranXico
Member
The assertion that if the clock is the same as that of the GPU (this was said by DF, I am yet to find official statements by Sony, btw), then it must be the GPU is not correct.
Sosokrates
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If the tempest engine is part of the GPU they would not be incorrect in saying it has 36cus.
It would just mean 1cu can only be used for audio, unless the modified tempest cu can also be used for visual tasks if that what the dev decides.
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Tiago07
Member
Tempest Audio is separate from the GPU.
About the heat, it is only one CU, i don't think this is going to be real problem.
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Thirty7ven
Banned
Jesus Christ people, this tempest cu - gpu is loco.
SonGoku
Member
of course not lol that'd be like assuming XSX SSD & I/O was a reactionary half baked addition
DF comparison is flawed since the 5700 frequency is hitting diminishing returns by pushing frequencies beyond the silicon sweetspot: logic timing, power delivery and bandwidth
A proper comparison would have both cards run at lower clocks to eliminate variables and test the principle of running the entire GPU pipeline faster Cerny mentioned
Reminder to keep the topic on hardware speculation and off of the fanbase meta-commentary in this thread, thank you.
SonGoku
Member
This is a childish argument...
If they said 37CUs it would be false advertising, TE does not contribute to the GPU compute throughput
Its a stripped down CU used as a frame to design a SPU like audio accelerator (ASIC).
edit: my bad, missundertood you. I agree TE ASIC is most likely inside the GPU, its beneficial to be more integrated and lower latency when using RT units
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Sosokrates
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I cant say for sure, but it seems way to much of a coincidence for it not to be part of the main gpu block..
Also it would be way easier and cheaper to just have 44cus and have some cus for the tempest engine, then have a 40cu main gpu block (4 deactivated for yields) and a seperate block with 1 or 2 cus for tempest.
MasterCornholio
Member
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
I can't wait to hear more about this. Especially since it sounds like an SPU in the Cell which the audio on the PS3 was phenomenal.
Ass of Can Whooping
Member
You really just need to look at the PSVR, which also had its own dedicated audio chip. That was the test run for PS5
SonGoku
Member
You mean where in the GPU? That's a good question
Its a safe assumption it resides inside the GPU, since it used after all a CU as its frame. Plus that way it can use the GPU pipeline to integrate it to the system, more efficient and less latency this way.
Sosokrates
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Its not been confirmed or denied yet if tempest is separate or not.
Tiago07
Member
It's interesting to say that TE is a modified CU to do audio purposes.
If PS5 have 40 CUs and 4 dedicated for audio (like AMD True Audio Next), we theorically have 1.14TF for audio but we only have ~>100GFlops (and should be 285GF in a normal CU at 2.23GHz). But we don't look to better system in Amd tech only in Flops. The PS5 possibly could do a better audio because that part of the APU was MADE for this purpose, the less Flops means that the TE cannot do previously calculus better than True Audio Next, but we don't look for a texture or polygons, we are looking for Audio which is Rays, so a GF is more than sufficient.
If PS5 have 40 CUs and 4 dedicated for audio (like AMD True Audio Next), we theorically have 1.14TF for audio but we only have ~>100GFlops (and should be 285GF in a normal CU at 2.23GHz). But we don't look to better system in Amd tech only in Flops. The PS5 possibly could do a better audio because that part of the APU was MADE for this purpose, the less Flops means that the TE cannot do previously calculus better than True Audio Next, but we don't look for a texture or polygons, we are looking for Audio which is Rays, so a GF is more than sufficient.
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Thirty7ven
Banned
Of course it's separate otherwise you would bin the entire chip because of one faulty unit.
SonGoku
Member
Wait im confused...
Sosokrates
you aren't really pushing this 35CU narrative are you? 
Sosokrates
you aren't really pushing this 35CU narrative are you? Its separate from the 40CUs but still resides within the GPU, think of it like dedicated hardware inside the GPU
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James Sawyer Ford
Banned
What a garbage post. Cerny is working within a financial constraint given to him by Sony executives. He does not design Playstation hardware in a vacuum where he has unlimited budget. The PS4, PS4 Pro, and PS5 are great pieces of hardware.
Why would he not last long at Sony? He has the full confidence of the company, has a history of developing successful projects. PS4 will end up being the most successful Playstation console in terms of profit/revenue.
What exactly is bad about the PS5 that should cause him to get fired? Is it because the TFlops aren't as high as the XSX? He clearly focused on areas other than TFlops. The TFlops aren't even all that meaningfully lower. PS5 is only 15% less than XSX.
He prioritized SSD, which impacts developers and end users in terms of Quality of Life features (and will result in more rich graphics, too). I would say that he's a genius that put his priorities in the right areas, and we will see this proven correct soon enough when the games are revealed.
Cerny never made any comparisons to the XSX. But there are some advantages to a higher clockrate, and he talked about them. Why wouldn't he? He also mentioned a disadvantage.
Sosokrates
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PSVRs audio hardware was not based on RDNA2 hardware.
But if you could provide some info about it i will give it a look, i could not find anything about it.
Fake
Member
Wait im confused...
Its separate from the 40CUs but still resides within the GPU, think of it like dedicated hardware inside the GPU
Sometimes he do that. Just ignore him.
Ass of Can Whooping
Member
Seriously? I was referring to it being its own dedicated hardware chip independent of the PS4s GPU
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Tiago07
Member
Yeah I didnt want to mean that TE is not in the GPU (thats is a possiblity), I only want to mean that the PS5 GPU (for graphics, polygons and other things) is composed by 36CUs and TE is other thing.
For a example the TE's CU produces ~100 GFlops.
But one CU at 2.23Ghz should do 285,4 GFlops.
And Cerny didnt metion the TE when he said about the GPU, and TE cannot do graphics purposes, so is not 35CUs for graphics, it is 36.
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Sosokrates
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Basically he has to sell the console, you are not going to sell anything by talking about its disadvantage and negative points.
See the post i replied to, cerny is not just a pr man, but he is trying to sell the console, so some "PR" or whatever marketing term you want to use is required.
Cernys not going to say "unfortunately only 825gb after the OS is installed will have available space for a very small amount of games"
Instead cerny said "our data shows that that 825gb is enough space for most gamers" or something along those lines.
BluRayHiDef
Banned
You're the one trolling.
It still has not been confirmed what the layout of the SoC.
And i wonder why the tempest engine compute unit runs @ the same clockspeed as the gpu.
It would not make much sense for the tempest engine be clocked @ the same speed as the gpu if its a seperate chip lol.
If im right all those doubting me will have plenty of crow to eat
Also that quote of me was a joke, cant believe you went in my history and actually thought you had a good "gotcha" moment, its a joke lol, lighten up
What do you think @CatLady @thicc_girls_are_teh_best ?
The die of the PS5's APU actually has a total of 40 CUs in the portion that is the GPU. However, due to the yield rate of the APU causing all 40 CUs to be functional on only very few units of the APU, the APU is designed to utilize less than the total number of CUs. Hence, it's possible that the number of CUs that it is designed to use is 37: 36 for rendering tasks and 1 for audio computations.
However, I'm sure that I've read that the Tempest Engine is an independent hardware component (i.e. a chip) that's separate from the APU or at least separate from the CPU and the GPU but still within the APU. Whichever may be the case, the Tempest Engine is not one of the 36 CUs that are dedicated to graphics tasks. As for why it runs at the same frequency of the GPU, perhaps it has to do so in order to sync the audio with what's being rendered.
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MasterCornholio
Member
So 40 CUs with 4 disabled for better yields. And in addition to that there's a customized CU that's only used for audio within the GPU.
Is this more or less correct?
THE:MILKMAN
Member
We know this about the tempest engine, we dont know what the audio solution for the xsx is, apart from a ninja theory dev saying its a seperate chip, but i dont take that as a confirmation.
Do you have the timestamp to the above image in the Road to PS5 video as I can't find it?
As for the Tempest Engine...I can only assume it is contained within/next to the APU/GPU but is separate from it as from the first Wired article it was described as a 'custom unit' and talked about separately from the GPU too. Cerny also says it is a modified CU so I would think it can't be included within the 36CUs as it is different.
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Sosokrates
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Sosokrates
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James Sawyer Ford
Banned
Cerny is the lead technical architect. He's not a salesman. That's Sony's job. That's why you only see him when discussing the technical aspects of the console. Yes, he's trying to "sell" you on WHY he made the decisions for the hardware that he did. He's not trying to sell you a product.
Why would he be talking about disadvantages to his console? He doesn't have control over everything. Last gen, economics dictated an APU...that's why we got jaguar cores. That's not his fault, nor is it his place to say "yeah, the CPU sucks but AMD couldnt give us anything better". That's why Cerny often focuses on things that ARE in his control, like optimizations to the I/O, SSD, The Tempest Engine, etc. Cerny could have just slapped PC parts together without any thought but we'd be getting a lesser console as a result.
Cerny mentioned the 825GB SDD because it's a bizarre number unless you know WHY he made that decision, which is specific to the number of chips/lanes needed to achieve 5.5 GB/s. There's nothing wrong with that number at all.
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THE:MILKMAN
Member
Oh that is why I couldn't find it! Yeah Rich must have asked Cerny follow up questions in his call to get more details. Not quite enough to settle this yet, though....
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
"Sales" is subjective because you don't have to be an actual salesman cutting deals to be "selling". I do bean counting at work. I never meet cutomers at their head office anymore unless it's a odd case or emergency situation (like they are trying to rip us off). But my job internally is to get numbers straight, profits in line, and my "selling job" internally is making sure I can convince people to do the right thing and not waste company money. Then I "sell" to VPs the numbers are right now this. And if things go this way or that way, the company will lead to this.
I'm trying to sell people everyday, but don't wheel and deal with customers, or take part in creating tv ads with the ad agencies downtown.
Both Phil and Mark are salesmen. Phil is more an overarching face of MS, talks about the Xbox brand games holistically. Cerny is the tech guy whose job is to "wow" gamers with specs. Kind of like Carmack. Does Carmack still do stageshows for id? When he gets on stage, his job is to impress people with graphics demos, megatextures and hope game sites and gamers love it and write articles. He's not going to talk about Bethesda games as a whole.
I'm trying to sell people everyday, but don't wheel and deal with customers, or take part in creating tv ads with the ad agencies downtown.
Both Phil and Mark are salesmen. Phil is more an overarching face of MS, talks about the Xbox brand games holistically. Cerny is the tech guy whose job is to "wow" gamers with specs. Kind of like Carmack. Does Carmack still do stageshows for id? When he gets on stage, his job is to impress people with graphics demos, megatextures and hope game sites and gamers love it and write articles. He's not going to talk about Bethesda games as a whole.
SonGoku
Member
Precisely, TE is nothing like a traditional CU, i don't see how it would be part of the SAs block. Its its own separate thing within the GPU
Sosokrates
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I just gave an example of him "selling". So you can try and deny all you want but he still did it and will continue to doit. Cerny does some "PR", deal with it.
I was correct in my original post you replied, so please move on, I dont feel like debating with somone who again chooses to ignore facts, makes this whole thing rather pointless and more akin to politics, where truth doesn't matter and all that matters is winning.
Sosokrates
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Yes. You can probably guess which outcome im leaning on.
Ascend
Member
Not necessarily... If they can completely redesign a controller to be available at launch like they did with the PS3, they can definitely make a last ditch effort to enable something like SmartShift on their console, which is basically what they're doing. SmartShift requires an additional control module, which is hardly a big enough change to be considered an impossible one within a short time frame. And it's not as if the consoles are already being mass-produced.
They could have made the change back when the accurate leaks of the consoles were spread around.
AveragePhoenix
Member
I want to know something
How is the Playstation 5's SSD a "gamechanger" when all of the multiplatform games will be targeting HDD?
We'll only see a few improvements, the main one being load times, but then again, comparing SSD load times is like comparing bullet speeds.
The only games to take full advantage of PS5 ludicrously fast SSD are the First Party exclusives, which are going to be totally amazing.
At the end of the day, games are going to look better on the SXS and load faster on the PS5. Both consoles are going to be amazing.
How is the Playstation 5's SSD a "gamechanger" when all of the multiplatform games will be targeting HDD?
We'll only see a few improvements, the main one being load times, but then again, comparing SSD load times is like comparing bullet speeds.
The only games to take full advantage of PS5 ludicrously fast SSD are the First Party exclusives, which are going to be totally amazing.
At the end of the day, games are going to look better on the SXS and load faster on the PS5. Both consoles are going to be amazing.
Sosokrates
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We dont have confirmation, so it could be one of the 36cus, it is unlikely that there will be only 3 unactive cus. Sony wont want worse yields.
Ass of Can Whooping
Member
SmartShift is just one aspect of it. They're using bespoke tech to achieve those clockspeeds
Sixaxis was hardly a complete redesign either.
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DeepEnigma
Gold Member
And it's unlikely it'll be a stripped non graphics CU within the same 36 block.
Considering we have the TF amount that's not based on 35, but 36, no?
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James Sawyer Ford
Banned
please explain why you said Cerny should be fired?
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
So even though every site says PS5 has 36 CU active, you're thinking if the system has some disabled CUs in good condition, some PS5 systems might have 37 CU to work with?
So some systems will work better than others?
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Bo_Hazem
Banned
Let me give you the very short explanation as it's a bloated subject at this point and you'll get plenty of explanation if you use the search function:
(You don't need to do any extra work as a dev, the system (API, I/O, etc) is programmed to load only assets needed within your sight like on Horizon Zero Dawn but on steroids (more room for CPU/GPU optimization for more graphics and computations with less to no waste).
If you don't get it, watch the whole SSD talk in the GDC event and hear it directly from Markitect and it's explained thoroughly and clearly, people pretend that he's talking in a Mayan language..
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
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