Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Console tEch threaD

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IntentionalPun said:
I mean.. literally my only point here is that Sony has been vague, I got jumped on for suggesting that.

We have no clue what percentage of games work with no changes after testing.. we don't know what of Sony's statements refer to boosted games vs just playable games. We have the words they've said, and they all add up to being fairly vague. What we do know is they DO NOT expect the top 100 games to be playable by launch. We don't know exactly WHY; did 90 of them work fine and the last 10 will take too long to fix? DId 50 of them work and they expect to fix 40 by launch? We don't know.. because... vagueness.

What we do know is they expect the vast majority to eventually work.. which is super encouraging.

Literally my only point, guess I'm some XBox fanboy.

(I couldn't fucking care less about Xbox Backwards Compat, I have ZERO games on my Xbox backlog, nor do I really care to enhance any of them as I PC game... but the assumption is I'm an Xbox fanboy.. it's fucking hilarious)
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your comment is vogue, can you elaborate?
 
ZeoZan said:

🤔🤔
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Hmm.. mistake? Or PS5 remakes and they don't have a PS5 option yet for their DB/web site to display?

Little early for submitting to PEGI though I iamgine..

edit: Oh, release date says tomorrow.. huh.. wonder if it's PS4 re-masters then and they picked the wrong platform?
 
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DrKeo said:
....
On a console, on the other hand, developers can have full control regarding in which of the "two pools" each piece of data goes. Both the GPU and CPU have access to the same memory address space but when one of them tries to access the first 10GB it will read the data from all 10 channels while if it is trying to read from the other 3.5GB it will do so utilizing only 6 channels.

When both CPU and GPU can access the exact same addresses, copying the data twice isn't necessary.
....
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On Xbox I'm pretty sure developers will have to use DirectX, and the One, OneX; and PC versions will deal with the Client/server aspect of the API based on what was most advantageous for the hardware wrapper to do, with data definiely being copied on PC.

You are suggesting that the client/server API abstraction can be ignored by developers - when the very reason for the abstraction is to let API specialists understand the wider issues and implement safe solutions that perform best and let developers focus on graphics development. The pools of memory have been partitioned for good reason on the XsX and suggesting that copying data from one to the other doesn't have advantages in scenarios ignores the difference in lost bandwdith the GPU incurs for not accessing data from is own 10GB, and ignores that CPU memory is commodeered for sent data, and the CPU would like to reclaim and repurposed that finite resource. Render instructions sent from the client(CPU) to the server(GPU) every frame will look no different to the API as sending a shader object, a vertex array,etc and that data does get copied, because it is expected to be resident in GPU memory because it gets rendered repeatedly while it is needed. No one is claiming two copies of the data will be mirrored continously, but instructions prepared on the CPU using the graphics API(client/server) still seem like a prime candidate on XsX for copying; especially as the API has to view the size of the data it is sending as an existential question, and therefore needs the client/server protocol mechanisms to handle such uncertain efficiently.
 
People should re-read this...
Z8fedDq.jpg
 
Just wanted to clear something up, on the "Ghost" trailer for Ghost of Tsushima, it says "captured in-engine from PS4 Pro." Does this mean it's in-engine footage captured from a PC or does it mean they used the engine to capture footage directly from the PS4 Pro? The wording is kinda confusing.


eBOFxJx.jpg
 
3liteDragon said:
Just wanted to clear something up, on the "Ghost" trailer for Ghost of Tsushima, it says "captured in-engine from PS4 Pro." Does this mean it's in-engine footage captured from a PC or does it mean they used the engine to capture footage directly from the PS4 Pro? The wording is kinda confusing.


eBOFxJx.jpg
Click to expand...
It is mix of actual gameplay and cinematic rendered in engine(not premade like the cinematics of games like GoW2 etc) on actual PS4 Pro. They are being as clear as possible in limited words.
 
IntentionalPun said:
The passage that said nothing about launch. Claiming it did is a lie; don't be a liar.

And now we are back to claiming tested means passed...

Seriously...

What's on second?

Let's move on.
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Ok, I get your points but you are being obtuse. Sony didn't use the exact specific language you want to be able to confirm for yourself- point noted. However, when they say they expect thousands of titles to be playable and are doing testing, the implication (which is a concept in thought and language) is that they are testing and verifying that those titles are working. They, just like other manufacturers cannot 100% guarantee that backwards compatibility. Some game might work till the very ending cutscene and then crash. So they're not going to say that. The implication in their statements is also that the backwards compatibility will be available at the launch of the PS5. So yes, you're accurate in that they did not 100% state "at launch" and that those thousands of games they have tested have been successful. But the implication is there. If those thousands they say they've tested were failing, do you not think they'd be trimming back their statements on BC? Would you expect them to announce BC like that and say "Yeah it's there, but it REALLY SUCKS right now! Hope we can make it better, but oh well!" I don't think so.

PR and ad statements are not crafted by companies like they are adults talking to 2 year olds where they have to be super specific, that's all. As you say as well, we will get clarity on this as we get closer to launch. Hopefully.

I mean seriously....(and not just to you) what was it like TWO FUCKING PAGES of this silly back and forth? Come on, man!
 
IntentionalPun said:
Yes; particularly since their statement about the top 100 games seem to indicate they won't have all of those ready at launch, (and how that was initially their only statement, and their "update" specifically avoided any statements about anything else ready at launch)

(With the caveat that they might have just been discussing boosted mode, granted the blog where they repeated that doesn't mention that at all)

@Deto : yeah I'm totally an Xbox fanboy got me pegged here

Apparently wanting to accurately discuss what has been said about something is a common trait of Xboyz.
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images
 
Did anyone watched Moore's Law Is Dead latest video?
He said something interesting: "I'm getting some leaks coming out about Horizon, that there should be a demo shown in a month, when supposedly the polygon count on the main character is more than every character in the previous game combined" and he added "If that's true, that's not the 10 teraflops allowing them to do that... i'ts the fact that they have to do half the draw calls or whatever that they used to have to"

Link:
 
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Snowdonhoffen said:
Did anyone watched Moore's Law Is Dead latest video?
He said something interesting: "I'm getting some leaks coming out about Horizon, that there should be a demo shown in a month, when supposedly the polygon count on the main character is more than every character in the previous game combined" and he added "If that's true, that's not the 10 teraflops allowing them to do that... i'ts the fact that they have to do half the draw calls or whatever that they used to have to"

Link:
Click to expand...


Tht would be insane but if someone can do it it's definitely guerilla, Sony Santa Monica, Sucker Punch or Naughty. All members of ice team BTW 😊
 
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Snowdonhoffen said:
Did anyone watched Moore's Law Is Dead latest video?
He said something interesting: "I'm getting some leaks coming out about Horizon, that there should be a demo shown in a month, when supposedly the polygon count on the main character is more than every character in the previous game combined" and he added "If that's true, that's not the 10 teraflops allowing them to do that... i'ts the fact that they have to do half the draw calls or whatever that they used to have to"

Link:
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Do you have a timestamp ? Please.
 
Kaiserstark said:
Do you have a timestamp ? Please.
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Draw call ability of the new systems is on a new level with the cpu upgrades. But 'half the draw calls' indicate mesh/primitive shaders where the GPU extrapolates extra details without the cpu sending it.

Many accomplished titles will take advantage.

EDIT:could also be the mysterious saucy Geometry Engine culling things before sending off to GPU
 
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Bladed Thesis said:
I think this is a next-gen speculation thread.
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And we speculate based on these fine images from current gen console, how much better could the sequel on PS5 be!

I understand your point but there hasn't been much new to talk about. Folks going round and round digging up and trying make more or less out of what was said, leaked and what not. Just a little side track doesn't hurt.
 
IntentionalPun said:
So they have, in fact, been vague about it.

Because that's what not saying something means. Everyone is making assumptions while claiming Sony said things.. that's my only real point.

"It's so obvious we didn't say it" is not really how conveying information works. And it's really not obvious.
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They said it, but you're just being a bit picky about it.
 
AMD bullish on Xbox Series X, PlayStation 5 sales despite coronavirus

"We expect semi-custom revenue to increase in the second quarter and be heavily weighted towards the second half of the year as we ramp production to support the holiday launches of the new PlayStation 5, and Xbox Series X consoles," AMD CEO Lisa Su said during her company's earnings call, noting that these consoles will be among the biggest product launches of the year.

www.digitaltrends.com

AMD bullish on Xbox Series X, PlayStation 5 sales despite coronavirus

AMD is optimistic about the rest of the year, thanks in part to the upcoming console launches of Microsoft's Xbox Series X and Sony's PlayStation 5.
www.digitaltrends.com www.digitaltrends.com
 
Snowdonhoffen said:
Did anyone watched Moore's Law Is Dead latest video?
He said something interesting: "I'm getting some leaks coming out about Horizon, that there should be a demo shown in a month, when supposedly the polygon count on the main character is more than every character in the previous game combined" and he added "If that's true, that's not the 10 teraflops allowing them to do that... i'ts the fact that they have to do half the draw calls or whatever that they used to have to"

Link:
Click to expand...

I wonder what VFXVeteran VFXVeteran would say about such potential leaks...

edit:

Soon we will have next gen games showcased. Either we will see a significant jump in games as most are expecting, or as a few have suggested there will be no leap and things will look about the same.

Either way it will be interesting to see the reactions.
Shmunter said:
Draw call ability of the new systems is on a new level with the cpu upgrades. But 'half the draw calls' indicate mesh/primitive shaders where the GPU extrapolates extra details without the cpu sending it.

Many accomplished titles will take advantage.
Click to expand...
The leak was the polygon count being that high, the draw call comments don't seem to be part of the leak, they seems to be speculation from the youtuber on what may be the reason. Draw calls might have fallen 10x or more, or there could be another reason.
 
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PaintTinJr said:
On Xbox I'm pretty sure developers will have to use DirectX, and the One, OneX; and PC versions will deal with the Client/server aspect of the API based on what was most advantageous for the hardware wrapper to do, with data definiely being copied on PC.

You are suggesting that the client/server API abstraction can be ignored by developers - when the very reason for the abstraction is to let API specialists understand the wider issues and implement safe solutions that perform best and let developers focus on graphics development. The pools of memory have been partitioned for good reason on the XsX and suggesting that copying data from one to the other doesn't have advantages in scenarios ignores the difference in lost bandwdith the GPU incurs for not accessing data from is own 10GB, and ignores that CPU memory is commodeered for sent data, and the CPU would like to reclaim and repurposed that finite resource. Render instructions sent from the client(CPU) to the server(GPU) every frame will look no different to the API as sending a shader object, a vertex array,etc and that data does get copied, because it is expected to be resident in GPU memory because it gets rendered repeatedly while it is needed. No one is claiming two copies of the data will be mirrored continously, but instructions prepared on the CPU using the graphics API(client/server) still seem like a prime candidate on XsX for copying; especially as the API has to view the size of the data it is sending as an existential question, and therefore needs the client/server protocol mechanisms to handle such uncertain efficiently.
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Highly doubt it. I don't know what the setup will be but I see no reason why this would happen. I assume you know what virtual functions and abstraction are?
Implementation can be different for each platform even using the same interface. Thats how multiplatform games are made.
 
Snowdonhoffen said:
Did anyone watched Moore's Law Is Dead latest video?
He said something interesting: "I'm getting some leaks coming out about Horizon, that there should be a demo shown in a month, when supposedly the polygon count on the main character is more than every character in the previous game combined" and he added "If that's true, that's not the 10 teraflops allowing them to do that... i'ts the fact that they have to do half the draw calls or whatever that they used to have to"

Link:
Click to expand...


"half the draw calls or whatever that they used to have to"

What does this mean, and is this something in hardware that enables them to do that? Would the SSD have anything to do with it?
 
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Metroiddarks said:
Well as we read the GE can eliminate the vertex before this go the memory so this solution is even
better than the last implementation.
Click to expand...

Interesting, I do remember that. I just didn't know how much better GE really would be in terms of being able to optimize graphics. All of this stuff is going to be fascinating to see play out
 
Metroiddarks said:
Well as we read the GE can eliminate the vertex before this go the memory so this solution is even
better than the last implementation.
Click to expand...

I think that is what Matt Hargett was speaking about as well sometime ago:

I didn't say what features PS5 has, just that the earlier you can cull vertices in the pipeline is better. Why shade triangles at half/quarter rate when you don't need to draw them at all?
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source:
 
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TLZ said:
Maybe we're tired of the same subjects being brought back over and over.
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James Sawyer Ford said:
"half the draw calls or whatever that they used to have to"

What does this mean, and is this something in hardware that enables them to do that? Would the SSD have anything to do with it?
Click to expand...
i think draw calls are all done on cpu. Lower draw calls would result in less cpu usage. I could be wrong but that's my understanding.
 
scie said:
I owned a Samsung NC10, believe me netbooks were the worst and against an Intel Atom N270 the 8 core CPUs in the old consoles were like the 8th wonder of the world...
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Netbooks are fine as long as you don't use Windows which can bring anything to its knees because Microsoft thinks that "optimization" is a term for accountants, not programmers.

3liteDragon said:
Just wanted to clear something up, on the "Ghost" trailer for Ghost of Tsushima, it says "captured in-engine from PS4 Pro." Does this mean it's in-engine footage captured from a PC or does it mean they used the engine to capture footage directly from the PS4 Pro? The wording is kinda confusing.
Click to expand...
In-engine may mean from PS4 but not in real time. Engine renders frames at any pace and you put them together to form a super-smooth video. But do you really doubt in Sucker Punch? Anytime in their release history when they didn't deliver a well made game?

Gamernyc78 said:
Tht would be insane but if someone can do it it's definitely guerilla, Sony Santa Monica, Sucker Punch or Naughty. All members of ice team BTW 😊
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ICE tech is shared between all proprietary studios, not only those that have ICE members. This means ICE team can help any developer who makes games for Playstation. For example, my friend's small studio got help from Santa Monica for their project and they also published it.

If you want to learn more about call draws and how the rendering pipeline works, there's a quite approachable presentation made not for programmers but artists, so less techno jargon. In general, call draws are a real pain in ass of realtime graphics and their optimization means a lot more than any teraflop count. Please bear in mind that the presentation is for traditional rendering setups, i.e. PCs and new consoles are going to cut a lot of corners in that process.

simonschreibt.de

Render Hell 2.0

🇨🇳 Chinese Version by Leon He 🇻🇳 Vietnamese Version by Vu Phuong Hoang Added a whole new book covering the pipeline in detail Added 2 new videos and 32 new links to great articles, whitepapers, ... Extended the section copying data from HDD to graphic
simonschreibt.de simonschreibt.de
 
B_Boss said:
I think that is what Matt Hargett was speaking about as well sometime ago:



source:
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First party would definitely make use of the bespoke PS5 architecture. Can't wait for some GDC tech info on how studios can harness some of this and how many resources it frees up on cpu/GPU and ram bandwidth.
 
Corndog said:
i think draw calls are all done on cpu. Lower draw calls would result in less cpu usage. I could be wrong but that's my understanding.
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Yes, cpu provides the draw calls and GPU acts on them. So culling things would be a benefit system wide for all processors including ram usage & bandwidth.
 
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I almost sure the trailer of the new AC will be CGI but If you have to bet in case to be gameplay where do you think was capture ?
a) PC (I think is this one)
b)XSX
c)Xbox one X
d)PS5
e)PS4 pro

BTW I love some the CGI trailers of AC.
 
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Thirty7ven said:
See, a fanboy.
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SlimySnake said:
truly shameful.
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WTF, I thought it's some fanmade TR remake at the first glance, but then I actually read the tweet and laughed hard, you guys either have no sense of humor or must be insecure about "your" precious plastic box.

Snowdonhoffen said:
Did anyone watched Moore's Law Is Dead latest video?
He said something interesting: "I'm getting some leaks coming out about Horizon, that there should be a demo shown in a month, when supposedly the polygon count on the main character is more than every character in the previous game combined" and he added "If that's true, that's not the 10 teraflops allowing them to do that... i'ts the fact that they have to do half the draw calls or whatever that they used to have to"
Click to expand...

That's exactly what Geometry Engine/Mesh Shading is for.
 
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