HAL-01
Member
Naughty dog's and guerrila's games are Sony's graphical tour de force. They won't let a little multiplat engine demo steal their thunder
- Status
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
Why couldn't Sony still have the same gap the specs say they have? It is not like they have sat on their arse and did not bother setup the "software" side of the equation and thus maintain the kind of gap the specs suggest: you can see how the effective compressed data rate does close the gap a bit 4.8 GB/s vs 8-9 GB/s once you have both vendors factor in compression (but it is still the official specs, MS is not claiming further gains on top of that that massively close the gap even if you see SFS as more efficient or easier to use than PRT and whatever enhancement Sony took advantage of).
SF being a nice case of taking something that can be done in software on top of PRT (it itself doing the same about virtual texturing) and providing a built in HW acceleration for it. So just investing in HW does not mean a lack of respect for the software world. I have no reason to believe that Sony does not, in its own custom OS completely free from BC concerns with the wider desktop ecosystem, they have not tackled the same file system I/O concerns as MS. The general consensus is that there is no way they would be able to get decent speed out of it (even if they targeted half the speed they went for) without doing that. If they found a really superb way and provided HW acceleration for some of those steps even better.
I also feel that, similarly to when the "we invented DirectX, no way we would surrender a 40% advantage" was made by MS in the past, there is a feeling that, especially after Xbox One X, that for Xbox fans Xbox being better in specs is a given and if PS has better specs somewhere there has to be a mitigating factor that actually washes that away and makes it next to meaningless.
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Sinthor
Gold Member
That's a really loaded set of assumptions. Let's analyze that just a little bit:
I think we can stipulate that both companies are experienced in developing both software and hardware at this point- fair? The same type of argument has been made in the past about MS having some feature in say DirectX that wouldn't be available to Sony and Sony has made their own API or used a third party that negated that issue. Enough of this kind of thing has happened that I think a reasonable observer would say both are pretty darned skilled on the software side of things.
So let's assume that both companies have an interest in removing bottlenecks and improving performance as much as possible and do so with their software. What about Sony adding additional hardware with the budget saved by not having a larger piece of silicon, indicates that this was NEEDED in any way? Isn't that simply a design choice and along a different path, much the way MS spent more budget on a larger piece of silicon with more CU's? To turn this around, would it be fair to assume that with system I/O, Microsoft's decision to utilize a larger GPU was NEEDED in order to make up for their shortfall on the software and system architecture side? I think we'd both say that's not the case. These are simply different design philosophies. Whether those philosophies were purely the paths chosen or whether they also were rooted in a different cost and pricing strategy remains to be seen. The same could be said for the addition of specialized audio hardware. Is that to make up for some shortfall in capability that MS and Sony have so that they couldn't address the issues with software? Or is it a value add that augments and improves the performance of these machines?
Bottom line, a LOT remains to be seen, especially in how both systems perform relative to each other. But I don't think it's a valid assumption to be saying a piece of added hardware was needed to overcome some imagined shortfall in the area it addresses. Neither is going the other way with software features or functionality needed to address some shortfall in hardware. Now, one or both of those things could be true, but we have no way of knowing.
I mean, it's cool to speculate and that's all we're doing. But again, looking at this objectively I think it's more logical to assume that both companies are doing the most that can be done with software and doing a good job of it. So where hardware is added to augment, I think it's more logical to believe that it is just that...an AUGMENTATION, and not the admission of some issue there that had to be addressed with hardware because they lacked the expertise or ability to handle the problem in software.
Metroiddarks
Member
Because believe is not an argument that is why you basically say something because you think since the begining XSX is better in everything his is ad conditionally ''XSX could better because you believe
so for this reason if true'' see doesn't makes senses.
Or even worst you are saying an Affirming the consequent "if the total bandwidth is higher that means the IO/SSD is faster" in your case "The XSX IO/SSD is better for this reason its bandwidth is better" doesn't work also.
Is okay to have personal preferences of what kind of games do you like for example but not for say I believe this is not religion.
pasterpl
Member
You seriously prefer people who talk a lot of shit and do very little?
lol, it wasn't me who said that thing about shit, btw. I don't think that MS talks a lot and delivers shit in regards to xsex, it is some Sony fanatic that made that statement.
What I am saying is that I like when A company have open communication, that interacts with its fans etc. Instead of operating in "stealth" mode allowing internet to drive and create narrativ.
Rusco Da Vino
Member
All that magic SFS/BCPack bullishit that you usualy read here is directly cooked by TimDog and the rest of the ResetEra Discord FUD.
Same fallacies, same fantasies, same captures!
Same fallacies, same fantasies, same captures!
SFS is RDNA3 or even RDNA5++, why not?
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Sinthor
Gold Member
Sure it could. The point of the demo was to should what would be possible to do with the UE5 technology...at least at the stage it is in today (Doesn't release until some time in 2021, remember- likely mid to late 2021). But of course, that would require the developer to have the budget and resources to allocate the assets to the project. For example, I think they were pushing things to show off the technology by using 8k assets directly. I think a normal developer would probably use 4k assets or even lower in order to save some time and resources in the art and also implementation.
But the short answer is yes..a game could be created with that level of detail. Hopefully by the time UE5 actually releases it will be possible to go even FURTHER, assuming you have the resources. Exciting times ahead and it's worth noting that UE5 is engineered to work on a LARGE number of platforms while doing it's best to take advantage of any strengths those platforms possess. That means like we've seen with UE4, there will be a lot of cool games based off of this engine for this next generation and beyond, most likely.
Metroiddarks
Member
Hahaha ok I understand wrong your prefer a company even if talk shit, yes is good in the personal I don't care.
bitbydeath
Member
When?
Killer Sakoman
Member
Microsoft Engineers are so brilliant that they were able to optimize the graphics api to utilize only one tenth of the teraplots. That's why XSX with 12.1 terablogs will perform as 121. 1 teraclocks. You Sony fans will cry when you see ue5 running on XSX at 8k 120 ft/s.
Source: Tommy Fisher
ToadMan
Member
Do I think the actual term "Xbox Velocity Architecture" was the plan from the beginning? No I don't. I think that combination of words is a marketing term used to represent the various extra components associated with the SSD interface. Sony called theirs the I/O Complex - the term a hardware designer would use rather than the marketing department.
Do I think that MS expected the need to have custom hardware and software for their SSD solution? Yes, of course.
The thing is these systems probably started being drawn up back in 2016. At that time they consult manufacturers, think about technology, where gains can be made and what cost point they want to hit and start assembling ideas.
Much of the actual tech they're assembling now is probably only something they've had "real" performance specs and test beds for in the last 6 months or so.
When it's all assembled and tested Sony got 5.5gb/s and MS got 2.4gb/s. Maybe both companies expected the performance for themselves, but I think MS got wind of Sony's claimed figures and concluded this might be a marketing problem.
As MS what would you do? Risk losing yet another console gen because the SSD solution you started to spec 3 years ago isn't going to match the competition, or take steps with software to try and mitigate the problem or obfuscate the limitation?
Enter the term Xbox Velocity Architecture to conjure up ideas of speed and start looking for ways to eek out performance - texture gymnastics with SFS here, additional compression with BCPack there, minimise the processor overhead with directstorage and next thing you know MS are looking like despite their 2.4gb/s speed, they can claim to match PS5 performance with some software magic all for zero computing power cost.
But there's no such thing as a free lunch ....
I think MS are marketing to speed because they feel that it is a relative weakness of their system. I think MS are also looking for ways to increase throughput and that's why we're hearing about BCPack, SFS, DirectStorage - all features to try and mitigate the speed disadvantage or at least muddy the waters on PowerPoint slides in the offices of game developers.
Whether transfer speed is a weakness of the Xsex vs PS5 isn't known yet. That's the funny thing - all this effort might be a waste for MS and they could have gotten away with little more than rudimentary SSD support and left the rest to developers to figure out.
I mean Sony developed the cell at great cost in the expectation the raw power would deliver a major victory for them only to find developers unable to get the power out of it in economically viable timescales. Sony could have stuck a bog standard PowerPC in PS3 and achieved better results both technically and in sales.
Maybe Sony have made the same mistake again and way over engineered their storage solution, or maybe they haven't. But from a marketing perspective MS need to perform better this generation and that starts now with the marketing to enthusiasts.
In all likelihood neither console will have a storage issue that is practically noticeable to consumers.
Snowdonhoffen
Member
Date: May 19, 2020 [Tue] 16:00 - 17:10 (JST)
Which is right now according to Google
Here's the site but it hasn't started yet: https://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/IR/library/presen/strategy/
Sinthor
Gold Member
All that magic SFS/BCPack bullishit that you usualy read here is directly cooked by TimDog and the rest of the ResetEra Discord FUD.
Same fallacies, same fantasies, same captures!
Wow.. These guys are really reaching. Wild assed guesses, supported by assumptions and backed up with techno-babble. In the end, they cannot proved or know what they are saying. I wouldn't have a problem with it if it was being presented as assumption and speculation, but they are trying to present these things as fact and that means being misleading. Either unintentionally or...and they seem educated enough I tend to believe...intentionally. I mean, these are just hobby devices. Toys. It's funny how some people end up identifying so strongly with products or companies that it can almost become a religion and make them behave in similar ways.
Metroiddarks
Member
All that magic SFS/BCPack bullishit that you usualy read here is directly cooked by TimDog and the rest of the ResetEra Discord FUD.
Same fallacies, same fantasies, same captures!
Why this guy just love to say so stupid things, even for discord this guy is so stupid.
First understand the technology then after use as argument in that way, I posted this in other thread but is useful here.
- SFS is the best thing ever happen to the memory
- Yes it is good they improve that last solution because you know this far of be new, right ?
- This is new they told us
- Not exactly a similar solution appears in since the generation of Xbox 360 and PS3 was use for ID software for use megatextures
and after this gen both consoles announced as part of its API PS4 called 'Partially Resident Textures' and Xbox One 'Tiled Resources'
-But they announced this will decrement in almost 3x times or higher the use of memory
-Yeah that is not true because first we already have a similar technology, second you are thinking Play didn't improve it in 7 years and actually
you cannot use every time
-You only hate Xbox of course they can use
-They said not me, this is just an improvement and actually already GPU of NVIDIA are compatible so yeah is not so exclusive
But hey is not like Xbox lied the spec sheet they just forget in which year they live and what technologies exists and its limitations.
Know something funny the guy MixterMedia of whatever is called said in 2014 the solution of Xbox one was 100 to 1 compare to PS4, yeah sure.
HAL-01
Member
Link to watch Sony corporate strategy meeting is here: https://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/IR/library/presen/strategy/
It should've begun already but it hasn't
It should've begun already but it hasn't
BadBreathOfTheWild
Member
What Unreal Engine 5 demo'd was something Epic and Sony had been working towards for a few years. You can bet Sony's first party studios are up to speed and doing something similar or even different to leverage the IO performance.
Unreal Engine isn't in competition with proprietary first-party engines. Bend Studios even used Unreal Engine instead of creating their own (a massive undertaking) for Days Gone.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
All that magic SFS/BCPack bullishit that you usualy read here is directly cooked by TimDog and the rest of the ResetEra Discord FUD.
Same fallacies, same fantasies, same captures!
SFS is RDNA3 or even RDNA5++, why no?
Well... the arguments did feel at least rehearsed and they move in sync from thread to thread, I find that quite believable.
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ZehDon
Member
Great post - and I absolutely made a boat load of assumptions, pure speculation on my point: half the fun, for me.
Anyway, design philosophies are certainly at play - for example, it would make sense that Microsoft, a fundamentally software focused company, would put more emphasis on their software to solve problems, because it's what they've built their empire on. Sony's been in the hardware game for eons, so it makes sense they'd also play to their strengths. That's one component of it, no question. Cerny is bringing lots to the table at Sony as well, so we're starting to see the continued value of his expertise. I've said it before: Cerny is respected for a reason, so I'm not downplaying what him and his team have done.
For me, engineering always comes down: you do not do something unless you need to. Everything is done to achieve a goal. If Sony offloaded their I/O onto bespoke hardware, it's because they needed to in order to achieve a goal. So, that reason can be anything: it could be for latency goals, read speeds, heat dissipation, or component availability, or because their protocols were bottlenecking the I/O pipe. The short of it is Sony needed to offload it. Microsoft, on the other hands, didn't do this - so, there must also be a reason they didn't do this. Like Sony's reason, Microsoft's reason could be anything: perhaps they couldn't afford to, maybe they didn't have room to, they couldn't accommodate the additional heat, or - potentially - they had no need to. It's the balancing act of hardware engineering.
My insight is this: if Sony's I/O didn't create a significant load on the CPU, they wouldn't have put it on its own hardware and Cerny wouldn't have taken the time to explain that doing this frees up the CPU. Likewise, if Microsoft's I/O didn't create a significant load on the CPU, Microsoft wouldn't have explained that their new protocols freed up the CPU, negating the need for extra CPU power to handle the I/O. Taking both companies at face value, Sony indirectly said they needed to free up the CPU, so they added extra hardware. Microsoft directly said they needed to free up the CPU, and so wrote new software. I feel like these explanations and assertions from both companies imply that they both ran into bottlenecks, and solved the issue in different ways - playing to their strengths.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
Sure and despite their core strengths you see sometimes curious inversions if tendencies. You see cases where Xbox stroke a better HW tradeoff or achieved better HW - SW collaboration and you see cases where Sony has better software solutions (the linker on PS3 was reportedly better than the one Xbox 360 developers could play with and PS4 libGCM API allowed a lot cheaper draw calls than Xbox One API especially earlier in the generation).
I think what really helped Sony to lunch above its weight as a company was selecting a great Software Engineer like Cerny that consulted for a lot of high performance developers and directly coded and designed a lot of key parts in games himself as chief system architect of the platform (he does not need to be the top most expert transistor level design guru at that position, but have enough appreciation of the domain he is optimising for and direction of HW and SW tech). That was something few people expected and given PS4, PS Vita, PS4 Pro, and PS5 HW and SW tooling there is for me a clear pattern showing he is actually good at it and leading a team that is performing very well.
Vae_Victis
Banned
Sinthor
Gold Member
Roger that. It's fun to speculate for sure. In a way this is kind of like the pre-season in the NFL right? Every team is a potential Super Bowl champion and it's cool to try and puzzle out how the teams will really perform once the games are live and count. I see where you're coming from with the hardware route. We'll have to see from what we learn here in the future and from how performance is of each piece of hardware, relative to the other. Good times!
I am REALLY looking forward to seeing more actual gameplay and learn more about the hardware too. And yes, of BOTH platforms even though I plan on getting the PS5. I think that this will be a really great generation and we'll see some really cool games. Maybe even some innovations in gameplay due to the massive increase in CPU performance in particular.
bitbydeath
Member
Still nothing.
Is Sony delaying investor meetings too now?
Should be about to start now, they added the note:
Please click this link after 16:40 JST.
ZehDon
Member
Absolutely - this is a fun speculation game we only get to play once every six or so years, so I try and enjoy it
And, as crazy as it sounds, I'm kind of looking forward to consoles that really are quite different - I was convinced after the PS4 and Xbone were both basically the same that the days of interesting or new hardware in consoles was over. I'm glad I was wrong 
HAL-01
Member
they're having trouble, Cerny didn't design their powerpoint streaming pipelineStill nothing.
Is Sony delaying investor meetings too now?
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Guys it's hard to stay on top of all your posts here, any of you have a life outside this forum? kidding
Regarding all the reports of praises the ps5 been getting for its development ease. That easy development could/would include getting the maximum performance out the ps5, hitting its stated theoretical peak almost every time. Some of that performance will be attributed to the ssd advantage depending on the nature of what's it doing.
Not sure if something like this has been talked about already, but I believe there's more 'general' performance benefits in Sony's implementation of the Speed-Step. There's much more to it than just offsetting the frequency between cpu and gpu when one of them gets too hot to maintain a constant power draw. Cerny had talked about the importance of thermal equilibrium between cpu and gpu, the emergent behaviour of this is optimum performance (I would guess). I know it's been discussed here that work being done is equivalent to transistors being flipped which is equivalent to current drawn, equivalent to heat generated (exponentially) . I've read talks somewhere (can't remember source) that these speed-step frequency changes are very granular happening within cycles, leads me to think Sony have made something more advanced. The speed-step is keeping tabs on the data exchange between CPU and GPU constantly tweaking the frequencies/phase to mitigate any stalls/misses such as one won't be waiting on the other and have them working at optimum harmony depending on the data being crunched, constantly re-tuning both ever so slightly that makes a dramatic overall gain. My guess the coherency engine might have something to do with this, the name kinda make sense
I may be waay off the mark here, time will tell. Hoping not to wait too long to find out
kiddingRegarding all the reports of praises the ps5 been getting for its development ease. That easy development could/would include getting the maximum performance out the ps5, hitting its stated theoretical peak almost every time. Some of that performance will be attributed to the ssd advantage depending on the nature of what's it doing.
Not sure if something like this has been talked about already, but I believe there's more 'general' performance benefits in Sony's implementation of the Speed-Step. There's much more to it than just offsetting the frequency between cpu and gpu when one of them gets too hot to maintain a constant power draw. Cerny had talked about the importance of thermal equilibrium between cpu and gpu, the emergent behaviour of this is optimum performance (I would guess). I know it's been discussed here that work being done is equivalent to transistors being flipped which is equivalent to current drawn, equivalent to heat generated (exponentially) . I've read talks somewhere (can't remember source) that these speed-step frequency changes are very granular happening within cycles, leads me to think Sony have made something more advanced. The speed-step is keeping tabs on the data exchange between CPU and GPU constantly tweaking the frequencies/phase to mitigate any stalls/misses such as one won't be waiting on the other and have them working at optimum harmony depending on the data being crunched, constantly re-tuning both ever so slightly that makes a dramatic overall gain. My guess the coherency engine might have something to do with this, the name kinda make sense
I may be waay off the mark here, time will tell. Hoping not to wait too long to find out
pasterpl
Member
that's some reaching, no, I don't prefer companies that talk shit (I never said anything like this), please don't be that blinded fanboy that is that focused on their brand of love that feels the urge to offend others.
why I have got a feeling that if Sony would apply ms approach you would be praising them for how open they are
pasterpl
Member
Not E3: When to expect Sony’s and Microsoft’s next big summer events
We are not getting an E3 in 2020. Instead, we are getting an endless march of loosely affilliated announcements. But what about Sony and Microsoft?
venturebeat.com
chigstoke
Member
All that magic SFS/BCPack bullishit that you usualy read here is directly cooked by TimDog and the rest of the ResetEra Discord FUD.
Same fallacies, same fantasies, same captures!
SFS is RDNA3 or even RDNA5++, why not?
Staggers me how anyone can still talk about RDNA3. Timdog and his raving bunch of absolute loonies need to take a breather for 5 minutes.
BGs
Industry Professional
Hey, I didn't say anything about buttons, then don't say that I did.Lol everyone just missed this
Snowdonhoffen
Member
Sony will introduce Sony AI into Gaming!
PlayStation Assistant confirmed (it seems)
PlayStation Assistant confirmed (it seems)
HAL-01
Member
At the end they're gonna reveal Yoshida was rendered in real time 4K on a PS5 the entire time
BGs
Industry Professional
I have not said anything about buttons.
Metroiddarks
Member
Don't think so for luck I have a good job so I can afford to buy any console, game or PC I want so you will never find me satisfied with nothing. I can complain for any of the 3 companies for hours:
Playstation: they forget his japanese AAA first party games since many years ago also the multiplayer just doesn't exists.
Nintendo: is allergic to advances in technology and when they make game taking inspiration in other games they just doesn't recognize because everything they do is original.
Xbox: buy is console is probably not worth it if you can buy a good PC, they have lustrums without a game which actually care in the industry.
The reason of why register in this forum is because I saw many people doesn't know how to discuss/debate for example when I mention the word fallacy more than one doesn't
had an idea of what I was talking about and this is basic concept for a good debate. I prefer a good debate and lost than say one company win .... these a billionaire company they
will good without me.
It is true that it bothers when someone says something without any support and I saw more of this in Xbox fan side because in my theory they feel hurt for the constant mocking
of the other side and because Xbox social networks encourage that behaviour.
Also when someone say make some part of a videogame is trivial, man most of the people doesn't has an any idea of how hard is do a simple game.
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Metroiddarks
Member
Please don't be the 'Hi Kinect/Xbox play game' of Sony I hate those systems XD
Bonsaibäumchen
Member
Using the PS Camera you can already use your voice to control your playstation.
Nothing new. Maybe now you won't need the camera just the gamepad.
FranXico
Member
You don't even need the camera, any audio input does that.
HAL-01
Member
Someone just asked about how will covid affect ps5 launch. "For ps5 at this moment towards the years end shopping season release hardware and software are on schedule"
FeiRR
Banned
Next David Cage's game: lick S1/S2 sensors alternately.
BGs
Industry Professional
I just wanted to know what the real background to the question was.
EDIT► Sooner or later a PSVRx will be wireless. Surely when they are ready and it does not affect much the price or the VR experience (due to the weight).
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SSfox
Member
All that magic SFS/BCPack bullishit that you usualy read here is directly cooked by TimDog and the rest of the ResetEra Discord FUD.
Same fallacies, same fantasies, same captures!
SFS is RDNA3 or even RDNA5++, why not?
Wonder what kind of drugs this guy take, should be some good stuffs.
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Metroiddarks
Member
ZehDon
Member
"Improve your PlayStation 5 with the infinite power of the cloud."Well, there it is. The mysterious MS-Sony partnership finally revealed.
You are mixing up several things and that may be the reason why you are a bit puzzled regarding Microsoft.
1) The Spider-Man Demo never was meant for public. We don't know, what Microsoft may have shown behind closed doors.
2) Right, Spider-Man Demo was an optimised tech demo to show SSD capabilities. Taking their loading times, they worked more than just a night at it.
3) I don't know Microsoft strategy but their tech demo has some messages likes "Look, your games load much faster in comparison to the old generation" "Oh wait, it's you old game, just take ist over to next generation" and some smaller ones like "Oh, you don't know the game? It's SoD2 available on game pass"
4) Funny thing: Microsoft loading tech demo is representative and Sony isn't. Even if Sony ever releases an optimised version of Spider-Man, their other several thousand games aren't. Microsoft has shown what you can expect when you start an old game on an new console: Better experience.
I'm fully aware of Sony's magic I/O system and their fast SSD and I expect some gains im comparison to XsX. But people are far overestimating shit right now.
The only thing we have from Sony are some technical sheets soft washed for a semi-technical half baked PR YouTube presentation. However, in June we should get a good presentation with gaming reality.
I'm really excited to see the reality and some won't like either of them, neither XsX nor PS5. People with expectations outside of Sony's and Microsoft's PR bubble are going to be happy.
ethomaz
Banned
Crapgamer basically vanished after he become "Sony fanboy".
Nobody talks about him anybody.
That tells you the difference between the communities.
- Status