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Deleted member 775630
Unconfirmed Member
He's making games for PC with lower specs, I don't see an issue here unless he thought that the minimum PC requirements for games would be the PS5/XSX specs.
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He's making games for PC with lower specs, I don't see an issue here unless he thought that the minimum PC requirements for games would be the PS5/XSX specs.
existensmaximum
Member
You haven't experienced the UI of the Wii U then, I guess?
Grinchy
Banned
Yeah, it's so obvious even for someone without any background in this stuff.
We saw a lot of that nonsense talk months ago when MS was pretending that generations were dead and every game would scale between them. Forum posters were defending it with some asinine logic.
Then, MS pivoted and stopped pretending they would be supporting 2 generations at the same time when Craig Infinite (the only actual game that was being developed as a cross-gen game in their whole stable) turned out to be such a bust.
Now, they're pretending that a low-spec machine with 1/3 the GPU power and a horribly-gimped RAM situation will just require a "Click here to lower resolution for the S" button. And once again, we have to hear about "scalability." Why can't people see this reality for what it is?
CrysisFreak
Banned
Well for the longest time I thought GPU would be the only difference and that does scale with resolution, maybe not perfectly but whatever.
The reduced RAM size is a surprise to me and I don't see how this contributes to easy scalability. At all.
Explosive Zombie
Banned
No, he isn't. They make games for the minimum CONSOLE specs and those consoles just so happened to be old enough that old as shit PCs can run it, too. They don't need or want that for next gen, they want things to move forward.
jimbojim
Banned
Looks like now you missed that post about scalability deliberately. And he mocks other dev which are bitching about XSS for a good reason.
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D
Deleted member 775630
Unconfirmed Member
So you truly think they would make games for PS5 as the minimum requirements PC spec? So leave behind all those players on PC? Yeah, seems realistic...
Explosive Zombie
Banned
The casual, I don't have money market buys CONSOLES... PC market is mostly for gaming enthusiasts and people with cash to burn, you won't be leaving them behind, the PC community has been frustrated for years over games not advancing further due to consoles hampering them, WE WERE COMPLAINING ALL THE WAY BACK WHEN WATCH DOGS RELEASED, the better version hidden within the code for "parity" reasons. Literally since these consoles launched PC gamers have bemoaned them holding games back.
jose4gg
Member
1 - Games on PC can have another optimization process that sometimes can take to 1 year because some developers don't care to release on PC at the same time they do in consoles.
2 - Think 3/4 years ahead, the specs of the PS5 won't be as crazy because even right now they are not crazy at all.
3 - He isn't saying it's impossible to develop for XSS, he is saying it will be hard... that's it...
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Deleted member 775630
Unconfirmed Member
I would checkout Steam hardware survey if I was you. PC gaming market is much bigger than you think, and a lot of them have shitty PC's.
Explosive Zombie
Banned
Yeah and they make games like CSGO, Dota 2 and shit like that very popular.
Felessan
Member
PC is "beggars can't be choosers" - quality quickly deteorate below "target" specs, which is usually at about console level (not minimal specs). I doubt that MS will be happy/allow drastic cuts of image quality for XsS.
And if XsS will be part of target specs - it will hold back XsX and PS5 (and PC as well). We see it all the time on PC, where PC version is improved where it can be easily improved (like resolution, fps, texture quality and some simplier effects). We don't see anything like UE5 demo or Ratched/Spiderman:SS on PC, even though power level should be there already for some time, as no AAA games developed with PC specs as base, and with current-gen consoles in picture - you can do only so much that current gen can handle.
Alex Scott
Member
So when people like Gavin and Dusk say something ridiculous about PS5 in negative light that should be taken at face value.
But when an actual developer who has actually ported games and criticize XBOX, because he knows it could cause issues., well what does he know?
Developers don't want to make games for HDD or sata as minimum spec. And we as games should encourage that.
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jimbojim
Banned
I think you missed when Cerny said "almost instantaneously"
Anyway, instant swaping between worlds in Ratchet would be quite disorienting for player. Anyway, mind you that games on cartridges have loadings too.
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D
Deleted member 775630
Unconfirmed Member
Doom sold +2mil copies on PC. All of them have amazing PC's I guess?
Where did I ever say that Gavin or Dusk are right?
existensmaximum
Member
Yeah, then there's also the ray-tracing situation. I mean, they could just turn RT off for the Series S I suppose, but then they'd have to put in a lot of extra work to fix the reflections, lighting or whatever some other way. I guess?
NoviDon
Member
The vast majority of pc gamers' systems are generations old and barely able to play the current games on piss low settings. The narrative that most pc gamers are enthusiasts, and consoles are holding pc gaming back, is a lie. On release xsx and ps5 will wipe the floor with the vast majority of peoples gaming rigs and raise the bar on graphics yer again. Console gamers know this, so I idk why you guys keep trying to push this false logic in our faces.
CrysisFreak
Banned
I think their idea is that RT requirements will scale down proportional to resolution which makes sense tbh
lepermessiah
Member
Personally I think this Series S was a dumb idea. 
zufuel
Member
The Xbox Series X can stream and record gameplay in 4K at 60 fps
But what can the Series S do?
www.polygon.com
Explosive Zombie
Banned
Doom Eternal was made to run on PS4/XB1, so long as your PC is competitive with those pieces of crap you're fine. Citing sales is a weird way to argue this, though, most rigs can't handle RDR 2, wanna guess whether or not it outsold Doom Eternal on PC?
Which is why the most popular PC games are Fortnite, CSGO, Dota 2 and stuff like that which anyone can run. The point is you're not leaving PC gamers behind by jumping forward, they're ALREADY largely behind. The people who care about being left behind will upgrade their PCs while everyone else keeps playing free to play games like League of Legends.
Vae_Victis
Banned
It's worse than that. If the fears about XSS drastically holding back third party games are proven correct over the next couple of years (when cross-gen dies), Microsoft just gifted Sony a valid and perfectly justifiable reason for buying third-party games exclusivity.
Usually so-called "moneyhatting" is considered a bit of an asshole move, because you are basically paying a developer to make a game not available to somebody else. But with this, Sony can just say " We struck a deal to ensure that X game will be able to take full advantage of the PS5 without being held back." And they would be right, and it would paint them more as paying to ensure PS5 users get a better game in the end instead.
NoviDon
Member
So I'm assuming that if your a developer looking to develop for series x, you have to make a series s variant in order to get your game released on the platform? So what happens if xbox's marketshare doesn't increase, or only slightly increase. What if it slips? And developers are having to spend way more of their increasing budgets doing magic tricks to fit a AAA next gen title in a little speaker box, without an increase in revenue to offset the new costs? This could be a huge disaster for the xbox division. its Russian roulette, console war edition.
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Deleted member 775630
Unconfirmed Member
The reason why I cited sales was because you said that Steam hardware survey doesn't matter, because a lot of those games can be played on very low specced PC's. So I'm merely saying that still a lot of people also bought Doom on PC, and not all of them have high-end PC's. So for as long as the developer makes PC games that are targeted at PC's that are specced lower than the XSS, there's isn't really a story here.
Explosive Zombie
Banned
I've never seen someone more confused than you. I'm not sure you understand the argument.
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Deleted member 775630
Unconfirmed Member
I've got the same feeling, but feel free to enlighten me.
Explosive Zombie
Banned
Not sure I'm that interested. You're using people who own a PC for the various other reasons to own a PC and happen to play free to play games like Team Fortress 2 or something as proof most PC gamers aren't enthusiasts. It's patently dumb. Even if what you're saying is true, what does it matter for what I'm saying? The big budget AAA games are too much for these people to handle NOW usually, that's WHY they stick to games like Fortnite or Overwatch, why would there be some big problem with leaving them behind next gen? There won't be. They were always behind. Two million people buying Doom Eternal is such a small portion of the PC gaming community you cite, in fact small enough I'd wager YES, the majority of them DID have good gaming rigs. I mean, yeah, there are always people on PC who buy a game and then whine it won't run on their toaster, check Steam reviews constantly for that shit, it's fun. The biggest audience for big AAA games will always be on CONSOLE not PC so this idea of leaving people behind is crap.
geordiemp
Member
RaySoft
Member
Im sure some still won't get it though...
geordiemp
Member
Personally I think this Series S was a dumb idea.
Actually its good idea of a 1080p lower spec console, just poorly implemented and gimped too far
FranXico
Member
They had to get its price below $400.
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existensmaximum
Member
That could push developers to ditch the Xbox and stick to PS5, potentially. I guess on the other hand, there's the compromise between making the game shine as much as possible and make as much money as possible (releasing it on as many platforms as possible), but also the time, money and effort it takes to do so.
I could see many games releasing on PS5 (and PC?) and later on the Xbox ecosystem, if the game does well enough.
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Zoro7
Banned
Its literally just a budget console to gain more market share.Personally I think this Series S was a dumb idea.
Xbox One / One X => Series X / Series S. I don't think they will sell much more than last gen.
I've long said that the Series S is needless device. At either side of it, Xbox fans will probably want the more powerful Series X. People wanting/needing to keep it cheap will stick with XB1 family of devices, knowing that MS have said their 1st party games will still be on GamePass day and date and will still support XB1 family of devices. No one needs to get a Series S just to sample GP games, for example.
People keep saying that there's lots of casuals and reletives, who'll automatically plump for the cheaper machine. But really, is there? If I was a kid and my parents had got me a SEGA Master System on Christmas morning instead of a SEGA Genesis, I'd explain the difference, and then we'd go get the better Genesis/Series X.
The only thing I see it doing is creating confusion (S vs X, because MS can't name their consoles properly), or a few might canibalize sales of the Series X itself. It just seems like a baseline console holding the generation back, again, as is MS's playbook all the time.
People keep saying that there's lots of casuals and reletives, who'll automatically plump for the cheaper machine. But really, is there? If I was a kid and my parents had got me a SEGA Master System on Christmas morning instead of a SEGA Genesis, I'd explain the difference, and then we'd go get the better Genesis/Series X.
The only thing I see it doing is creating confusion (S vs X, because MS can't name their consoles properly), or a few might canibalize sales of the Series X itself. It just seems like a baseline console holding the generation back, again, as is MS's playbook all the time.
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Self High Five
Member
This is the most objective take on the XSS situation so far:
"games where resolution is essentially the only major difference" will likely be cross gen games the next two years.
"games where other noticeable changes need to be made" will be engine dependent and will vary throughout next gen
"games that look and/or run badly on the S." will be common near the end of the gen.
See Control and SW Jedi Fallen Order from last year. The base consoles were big next gen leaps outside of CPU (huge RAM increase, mandatory HDD, big GPU jump) and they ran these two games like complete dog shit.
"games where resolution is essentially the only major difference" will likely be cross gen games the next two years.
"games where other noticeable changes need to be made" will be engine dependent and will vary throughout next gen
"games that look and/or run badly on the S." will be common near the end of the gen.
See Control and SW Jedi Fallen Order from last year. The base consoles were big next gen leaps outside of CPU (huge RAM increase, mandatory HDD, big GPU jump) and they ran these two games like complete dog shit.
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Bo_Hazem
Banned
Alex Scott
Member
Never seen you say it.
My point was Xbox fans are more likely to deny this sort off stuff.. XSS will be the minimum requirement this generation and it could hamper with the game design,
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SaucyJack
Member
I think it's been clear from very early on that Microsoft didn't focus as much on I/O, we're just starting to see the results now.
It was clear that it is pivotal to PS5 design from Cerny's Road to PS5 presentation, MS do not talk about it anywhere near as much because they do not have the same level of customisation around this. They're talking about 40x faster than current gen in their literature, Cerny was talking about 100x faster in road to PS5
NoviDon
Member
Exactly, this is MS not understanding the consumer base yet AGAIN. Not only that my friend, Microsoft will be competing at 300 with the switch. with potentially a 4k model holiday 2021, with the vanilla switch dropped to $199. MS could actually lose marketshare. I truly believe MS is handing sony the gen on a silver platter twice in a row.
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xacto
Member
Personally I think this Series S was a dumb idea.
I bet it looked good on paper for Microsoft.
xacto
Member
Is this 2013 all over again lmao. I swear grubb is a shill
So basically, in two sentences, Jeff Grub spewed three idiocies:
"S is genius"
"Sane world"
"Can't see the difference between 4K and 1080p"
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