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NFL Week 11 |OT| Turn Your Head and Cough

Talon

Member
I think I've come to the conclusion that isolation metrics simply aren't applicable to a sport where cause and effect are so intertwined with each subsequent play. Unlike baseball where each new pitch (for the most part) essentially resets the gameboard, no such thing happens in football.
Right. Football is less of a quantitative game than baseball for the following reasons.
  • Every decision is affected by the previous play in context of the score, location on the field, etc.
  • Coaches have a far greater say on what happens in a given play
  • It's an 11-on-11 sport where every player affects the play in varying degrees
  • There's a limited sample size of 16 games against different teams
 

eznark

Banned
Right. Football is less of a quantitative game than baseball for the following reasons.
  • Every decision is affected by the previous play in context of the score, location on the field, etc.
  • Coaches have a far greater say on what happens in a given play
  • It's an 11-on-11 sport where every player affects the play in varying degrees
  • There's a limited sample size of 16 games against different teams

Squicken jerks off the ANFLS so it's no surprise he is a fan.
 

LevelNth

Banned
Every week it changes, but right now my biggest gripe with QBR is the bizarre weight on taking a sack. For a stat that is supposed to isolate quarterback performance, it sure puts a huge emphasis on not getting sacked (I think we can all agree that it's not 100% up to the QB whether or not he gets sacked). It also seems to treat taking a sack almost as big as throwing a pick, which is bizarre.

There is also a huge premium on running plays, which is retarded.

I think I've come to the conclusion that isolation metrics simply aren't applicable to a sport where cause and effect are so intertwined with each subsequent play. Unlike baseball where each new pitch (for the most part) essentially resets the gameboard, no such thing happens in football.

Personally, I think the most useful stat tracking being done is that Billick big play stat that I can never remember the dumb name for.
My issue with the QBR stat is that ESPN wanted to create this unheralded end all be all stat, and felt they were super awesome enough that they could judge the ambiguities themselves.

To what degree was the sack the fault of the QB, the line, the back missing a pickup, etc.? Sure the QB tossed the ball 55 yards in the air (they love talking about how QBR takes YAC into consideration), but where is the consideration for the diving catch made, or the catch made in double/triple coverage?

A QB will get a TON of QBR points for a 35 pass behind in the 4th quarter down the seam to a wide open receiver, when the reality is the play would only have happened be for it the amazing block on the edge by a lineman, and even David Carr being able to make a throw like that.

QBR is idiotic. If and when I care about stats, I want hard numbers. Not ambiguity of idiot analysts.
 

Talon

Member
My issue with the QBR stat is that ESPN wanted to create this unheralded end all be all stat, and felt they were super awesome enough that they could judge the ambiguities themselves.

To what degree was the sack the fault of the QB, the line, the back missing a pickup, etc.? Sure the QB tossed the ball 55 yards in the air (they love talking about how QBR takes YAC into consideration), but where is the consideration for the diving catch made, or the catch made in double/triple coverage?

A QB will get a TON of QBR points for a 35 pass behind in the 4th quarter down the seam to a wide open receiver, when the reality is the play would only have happened be for it the amazing block on the edge by a lineman, and even David Carr being able to make a throw like that.

QBR is idiotic. If and when I care about stats, I want hard numbers. Not ambiguity of idiot analysts.
Don't conflate the inadequacy of the static with the lack of consideration to these other factors.

Quantitative methods are lacking for a qualitative product such as football.

Your bolded statement is pretty much: "This stat isn't stat enough."
 
QBR or whatever it is tries to incorporate too much, and is basically useless as a result. Assuming you have access to other, "purer" metrics, like advancednflstats's EPA/WPA.

In general, team sports are too chaotic for a single frankenumber to be an adequate measure of a player's ability.

I think I've come to the conclusion that isolation metrics simply aren't applicable to a sport where cause and effect are so intertwined with each subsequent play. Unlike baseball where each new pitch (for the most part) essentially resets the gameboard, no such thing happens in football.
Quantitative methods are lacking for a qualitative product such as football.
It depends where you look. The problem is actually not that the metrics are lacking, it's that sample size is too small to make meaningful proclamations about any particular player -- apart from obvious stuff, like "Aaron Rodgers is good, Matt Cassel is bad". You're better off with the raw data (including "how does the success of player X's team compare to the mean, weighing all plays equally?"), and then realizing that supporting cast, quality of opponent, and small sample size will always create uncertainty.
 

LevelNth

Banned
Don't conflate the inadequacy of the static with the lack of consideration to these other factors.

Quantitative methods are lacking for a qualitative product such as football.

Your bolded statement is pretty much: "This stat isn't stat enough."
Because that's all a stat is and can ever be. QBR tries to be qualitative, but then put it in stat form to legitimize it. It's bullshit and disingenuous, and results to nothing more than analysts hiding their 'analysis' and opinions inside a numerical stat.

Get it out!
 

eznark

Banned
It depends where you look. The problem is actually not that the metrics are lacking, it's that sample size is too small to make meaningful proclamations about any particular player -- apart from obvious stuff, like "Aaron Rodgers is good, Matt Cassel is bad". You're better off with the raw data, in this case "how does the success of player X's team compare to the mean, weighing all plays equally?"

Right, and if QBR was transparent and ESPN shared the data it uses with the general public I would love it! I would still think the formula is retarded but if it results in us getting our hands on data that is not widely available I'd be thrilled.
 
I honestly can't figure out what is going on with Miami's o-line. Pouncey has had a great season at center but Long and Incognito both seem to be getting worse as the year goes on. It's understandable with Martin given that he's a rookie but I don't see how any of the other guys have an excuse. Early in the year the Dolphins had great success running the ball but they have looked consistently awful over the past few weeks, and I don't think that's the fault of the RBs. The o-line is just getting destroyed by whoever they're up against, even when it's the 31st ranked run defense in the NFL (the Bills). And Tannehill has been getting abused consistently as well.

It's just so strange because early in the year the o-line seemed like the brightest spot for this team and now they just look like a liability.
 

jbug617

Banned
My Wii-U shipped today, I hope New Egg doesn't take long with my New Super Mario Bros U.

Also QBR is irrelevant it's just a stat they made up to have another talking point.
 

Goro Majima

Kitty Genovese Member
QBR is dumb.

I like looking at all the stats like YPA, QB rating, INTs, TDs, Yards, and the ever important completion percentage.

What was wrong with that system? Not conducive enough for twitter posts or something?
 
“Couldn’t run the ball and we couldn’t throw the ball, either,” running back Reggie Bush said. “That’s pretty much the offense. Can’t run or throw it.”
lol

The Miami Dolphins, ladies and gentlemen.
 

Kave_Man

come in my shame circle
Apparently the Gangnam style dude is going to be the halftime entertainment for the Bills game in Toronto.

I may go to that game anyways as one of my buddies is a die hard Bills fan. He went last time and just said you can get some dirt cheap prices after the first quarter is over.
 

Goro Majima

Kitty Genovese Member
Apparently the Gangnam style dude is going to be the halftime entertainment for the Bills game in Toronto.

I may go to that game anyways as one of my buddies is a die hard Bills fan. He went last time and just said you can get some dirt cheap prices after the first quarter is over.

I think I would prefer him doing the Superbowl halftime show just to see the looks on my relatives faces.
 

squicken

Member
Every week it changes, but right now my biggest gripe with QBR is the bizarre weight on taking a sack. For a stat that is supposed to isolate quarterback performance, it sure puts a huge emphasis on not getting sacked (I think we can all agree that it's not 100% up to the QB whether or not he gets sacked). It also seems to treat taking a sack almost as big as throwing a pick, which is bizarre.

There is also a huge premium on running plays, which is retarded.

I think I've come to the conclusion that isolation metrics simply aren't applicable to a sport where cause and effect are so intertwined with each subsequent play. Unlike baseball where each new pitch (for the most part) essentially resets the gameboard, no such thing happens in football.

Personally, I think the most useful stat tracking being done is that Billick big play stat that I can never remember the dumb name for.

I agree with almost all of this. I just used to completely dismiss it, but now I sort of see its usefulness. For a long time YPA was what was touted as the big number to look at, but with some teams going back to 70s offenses and having their QBs hand off or go deep so much, it's a little skewed

But ultimately all football stats are flawed b/c you can't isolate anything. I just think QBR is less flawed than I previously thought

edit: I don't know what ANFLS is
 

squicken

Member
I
It's just so strange because early in the year the o-line seemed like the brightest spot for this team and now they just look like a liability.

Long has to be hurt. There's no way he just went from really good/great to subpar. Incognito was never good. He has never had any lateral movement and was basically just a mauler. Him getting more exposed probably has a lot to do Long's fall off
 

LevelNth

Banned
It's better than QB rating, which is all I think they set out to accomplish.

Then again, QB rating is stupid.
I disagree, QB rating is fine. People just tend to use it as a metric for 'how well a QB throws', which is false; it isn't an end all be all stat for QB's either. It's more just about efficiency, but again, like every other stat, needs to be viewed with other statistics also in mind.

This is why Luck's QB rating is low, but looking at other stats it's easy to see why that is (average distance of throw, etc.).
 

squicken

Member

I was actually thinking about what Urlacher said about cut blocks. Would a fair trade off to outlawing that be that defensive linemen could no longer use their hands to bat down passes? Would fans want to see that? How much contact can be removed before fans walk away?

edit:

lol


Jim Thomas ‏@jthom1
Stat of the week: Rams punter Johnny Hekker has more passing yards this season (42), than Jets quarterback Tim Tebow (40).
 

Seanspeed

Banned
I disagree, QB rating is fine. People just tend to use it as a metric for 'how well a QB throws', which is false; it isn't an end all be all stat for QB's either. It's more just about efficiency, but again, like every other stat, needs to be viewed with other statistics also in mind.

This is why Luck's QB rating is low, but looking at other stats it's easy to see why that is (average distance of throw, etc.).
Its not even just about looking at it with other stats in mind. Its just that people treat stats as any sort of 'conclusive' matter in the first place thats the problem. Sometimes stats can represent reality quite well, other times not so much. Generally, a higher QBR has correlated to better quarterback play. That exceptions exist doesn't make QBR useless, its just a reminder thats its still just a stat and not any final word on the matter.
 
I can't remember if you checked out their old stuff/if you liked them, but the new Destinity CD is out and it's solid
I did check them out and I did like them, thanks for the heads-up! I see that it's also on Spotify so it looks like I've got something to listen to on the way home from work today.
 
None too surprising but Cutler is out this week due to the concussion:

ProFootballTalk @ProFootballTalk

Bears announce Jay Cutler's out this week because of concussion

Same for Vick:

Adam Schefter @AdamSchefter

Hardly a surprise but Eagles QB Michael Vick will not play Sunday and Nick Foles will start.
 
I was actually thinking about what Urlacher said about cut blocks. Would a fair trade off to outlawing that be that defensive linemen could no longer use their hands to bat down passes? Would fans want to see that? How much contact can be removed before fans walk away?

perhaps its just my bias towards defense but I don't feel they should have to give anything up. Batted passes aren't injuring anybody, cut blocks are.
 

Milchjon

Member

Article rambles on too long, but I figure GAF must love these two paragraphs:

Any contact with the QB is a game suspension. Below the knees? Four games. The head? Eight.

It’s terrible, I know, the thought of Tom Brady never getting his knee bent backward or Joe Theismann not getting his leg snapped in half like a dry twig or a concussed Alex Smith not having to throw a TD pass with blurred vision.
 

Kave_Man

come in my shame circle
Someone mind c/p the whole article?

Sure, why not?

I’ve got theories on where football is headed. Lots and lots of theories.

I won’t say they’re all outlandish, or bizarre, but let me put it this way: I used to get a kick out of running them by Brad Childress when he was the coach in Minnesota and, before that, the offensive coordinator in Philly, and when he’d see me coming he’d laugh and shake his head and yell out something like, “Oh no, what crazy stuff have you got for me now?”

To name a few: possible rule changes; innovative ways to reduce injuries; the evolution of the quarterback; and offenses in general. Oh, and why teams should replace all current scouts with talent evaluators who are women.

For a long time I’ve also had one on the future of quarterbacks (or lack thereof) buried deep in my notebook, but it still seemed just a little too far out there to bring up.

This week, though, in just four plays the league lost four marquee quarterbacks (Jay Cutler, Michael Vick, Ben Roethlisberger and Alex Smith) to injury -- and along with it pretty much the fate of four franchises and maybe even the outcome of the entire playoff race.

And all of a sudden the crazy idea that sometime in the next 10 years the NFL would outlaw all contact on quarterbacks didn’t seem quite so outlandish anymore.

The truth is we really aren’t all that far away from turning quarterbacks into punters.

It’s already illegal to hit a passer above the shoulders, below the knees, into the ground, while he’s in the grasp, from behind by the collar, after he releases the ball or once he begins to slide. How big of a leap is it from there to banning all contact?

Considering how much quarterbacks mean to the bottom line in football -- offense equals entertainment, entertainment equals $9 billion in revenues -- and how hard it is to even find or develop or keep 32 decent passers healthy these days, is it really that ridiculous to think that someday soon the NFL might just step in and make them completely off-limits?

Not if you understand how historically the NFL has regularly and dramatically altered its rule book in favor of promoting offense and scoring (and cash flow) above all else.

In 1977, dominant defenses had brought scoring to its lowest point in 35 years.

What did the NFL do?

It made it illegal to contact receivers more than five yards off the line, blockers were allowed to extend their arms and open their hands on pass plays (commonly known by its more technical name: holding), a seventh official was added to monitor pass interference downfield and refs began to stop play when QBs were in the grasp.

And what did these outlandish, crazy, girly-man rule changes bring?

Not much.

Just the blossoming of the West Coast offense, the invention of the spread and basically, the pass-first, high-flying, high-scoring, video-game, fantasy-football era of the game we all enjoy so much today.

By the way, if you don’t think the NFL is capable of radical changes to the very DNA of the sport all in the name of profit, you aren’t paying attention. How else can you explain why, with thousands of former players lining up to sue the NFL because of safety and health concerns, the owners simultaneously would be pushing to add more games to the schedule?

If they would risk that much to boost profits by maybe 10 percent, what would they do to protect the one position that holds the entire future of the sport in its hands on every snap?

I’m not sure the NFL can even wait 10 years to encircle quarterbacks in new layers of rules like so much bubble wrap.

Half of the top 10 QBs in the league right now already have had to battle back from career-threatening injuries.

This week, in just four plays, passers making more than $53 million collectively were rendered almost as worthless as the tickets fans bought in hopes of seeing another epic rivalry game between the Ravens and the Steelers -- who, it turns out, are 0-4 against Baltimore without Ben.

Steelers backup Byron Leftwich -- who I tweeted yesterday has a glacial windmill throwing motion that looks like he was tutored by Pete Townsend -- is not exactly a good fit in a system the relies on short, timing routes.

Meanwhile, fans in San Francisco and Chicago, expecting Cutler and Smith to provide a preview of the NFC Championship Game, will now more than likely be treated to something closer to a UFL preseason tilt manned by Bears backup Jason Campbell (31-39 as a starter with an NFL-low passing-attempt distance of a paltry 6.6 yards) and 49ers second-year pro Colin Kaepernick (career TDs: zip).

Poor Bears fans have seen this before. Chicago was 7-3 last season and in a prime position for a deep playoff run until Cutler got hurt and backup QB Caleb Hanie lost four in a row.

How long will fans in Chicago and elsewhere continue to pay $400 to take a family of four to watch an inferior product? How long will they pay Cutler ticket prices for Hanie performances?

At the prices the NFL charges. I’m shocked no one has sued yet for their money back. I’m serious.

Ask yourself this question: If you paid 400 bucks to see the Rolling Stones this fall and Mick Jagger got a cold or sprained his ankle and couldn’t perform, you think the promoters would trot out Chad Kroeger and still hold the concert?

Of course not. But the Eagles are about to replace Vick with Nick Foles and no one’s gonna think twice about it.

Because of player health concerns, the league can no longer market itself and hook future fans by subtly selling the breathtaking violence of the sport. That used to be our drug.

The future of the game, however, belongs to fast-thinking thrill-seekers weaned on the Web, iPods and Madden.

Let’s be honest, it belongs to the guys with five fantasy football teams.

To convince them to open their wallets, the NFL needs scoring and entertainment and lots of it. And to produce that, they need healthy quarterbacks.

In the end, too much is riding on keeping those rainmakers in the pocket safe and sound for the NFL to continue to protect them with just flags and fines and lectures.

So then the question becomes: How do we do it?

Bodyguards? Velvet rope and bouncers around the pocket? A popemobile bulletproof golf cart for Tom Brady?

I don’t think you want to eliminate the pass rush altogether. The tension and battles it creates is one of the best parts of the game. So the league would have to come up with some kind of sensor or signaling device or, honestly, a time limit, that would blow the play dead and spot the ball where the QB is standing if the pass rush gets close enough before he can get rid of the ball.

(Does that sound like flag football a bit? Yes, it does. Congrats, you’re starting to catch on.)

On scrambles, either the current rules apply (a QB outside the pocket can be treated like a running back by Ndamukong Suh) or we just eliminate the scramble altogether. If the QB can’t find anyone to pass it to before Suh triggers his sensor, then the play’s over.

And if -- sorry, when the league does this, it has to go all the way.

No fines and flags.

Just ask Cutler how well that’s working as a deterrent.

Any contact with the QB is a game suspension. Below the knees? Four games. The head? Eight.

It’s terrible, I know, the thought of Tom Brady never getting his knee bent backward or Joe Theismann not getting his leg snapped in half like a dry twig or a concussed Alex Smith not having to throw a TD pass with blurred vision.

But when it happens, we all have to try and focus on the positive and what could be the next great wave of offensive innovation in a league full of meatheads wearing Sansabelt pants where the last big idea (the West Coast) is about to turn 40.

Because once you eliminate the threat of injury to the quarterback, a lot of cool stuff can happen.

For starters, superstars like Peyton Manning could play forever.

Also, you won’t need as many blockers. If that leads the league to reduce the number of players required on the line of scrimmage from seven to six, that extra man could become an eligible receiver downfield.

What’s more, with six-man receiver sets, the game would continue to evolve into a form of basketball on grass. It wouldn’t be long before we’d see a "second line of scrimmage" downfield where, after completions, the receivers actually run a second "play" by pitching, lateraling or handing the ball off to another playmaker in the open field.

(Defenses would have to respond by getting smaller and faster, making the game safer and open to more regular-sized kids on the high school and college level. Dwindling participation? Fixed. You’re welcome, Roger.)

When the Fleming Rule goes into effect to protect quarterbacks in 2020 and save the NFL as we know it, games that end 45-40 will be considered low-scoring defensive battles. You will need a super computer to calculate your fantasy football results, which, of course, you’ll wear on your wrist.

And the QBs in Super Bowl LIV each will surpass 1,000 yards passing in a single game for the first time in history.

You can have that as your NFL future.

Or you can look forward to championship games that end 10-6 and feature Scott Tolzien versus David Carr and Caleb Hanie taking on Tyrod Taylor.

Let that sink in for a bit.

And when you realize I’m right, I’ll share my theory that proves how offensive tackles will one day evolve into hybrid, pass-catching tight ends.
 

eznark

Banned
Just the blossoming of the West Coast offense, the invention of the spread and basically, the pass-first, high-flying, high-scoring, video-game, fantasy-football era of the game we all enjoy so much today.
I want this guy to die gruesomely and for it to be caught on video and widely disseminated for all to enjoy.

And thanks, Kave!

Steelers backup Byron Leftwich -- who I tweeted yesterday has a glacial windmill throwing motion that looks like he was tutored by Pete Townsend -- is not exactly a good fit in a system the relies on short, timing routes.

Fucktard McAwfulwriter even quotes his own fucking tweets. Jesus. Goat pen mauling would be too good a death.

Let’s be honest, it belongs to the guys with five fantasy football teams.
I'm out, fuck you Kave for making me read this.
 
I want this guy to die gruesomely and for it to be caught on video and widely disseminated for all to enjoy.

And thanks, Kave!
Seriously, this is so awful. Why doesn't anyone appreciate defense anymore? I think it'd be refreshing to see a SB with a final score of something like 10-6 once in awhile, honestly.

What’s more, with six-man receiver sets, the game would continue to evolve into a form of basketball on grass.
Shoot me now.
 
So there has been a lot of talk the last day or so in Philly about Lurie supposedly wanting to hire Chip Kelley, and I am curious if any college coaches that coached a gimmick offense have been successful in the pros? I guess you could say Barry Switzer, but he was only successful with Jimmies players.
 

Milchjon

Member
I want this guy to die gruesomely and for it to be caught on video and widely disseminated for all to enjoy.

And thanks, Kave!



Fucktard McAwfulwriter even quotes his own fucking tweets. Jesus. Goat pen mauling would be too good a death.


I'm out, fuck you Kave for making me read this.

Shhhh, you're just old.

(I also think it reads like he's quietly chuckling along while writing all this down.)
 

LJ11

Member
So there has been a lot of talk the last day or so in Philly about Lurie supposedly wanting to hire Chip Kelley, and I am curious if any college coaches that coached a gimmick offense have been successful in the pros? I guess you could say Barry Switzer, but he was only successful with Jimmies players.

His offense isn't based on gimmicks, at its core it's a run heavy scheme. They run all the traditional runs, along with options. They run power sweeps out of the gun, I wouldn't call that a gimmick.

Only concern would be the smaller hashes, and Kelly finding an athletic center so he doesn't have to limit his run options.
 

eznark

Banned
So there has been a lot of talk the last day or so in Philly about Lurie supposedly wanting to hire Chip Kelley, and I am curious if any college coaches that coached a gimmick offense have been successful in the pros? I guess you could say Barry Switzer, but he was only successful with Jimmies players.

Is speed really a gimmick?
 
Seriously, this is so awful. Why doesn't anyone appreciate defense anymore? I think it'd be refreshing to see a SB with a final score of something like 10-6 once in awhile, honestly.


Shoot me now.

10-6 because of stellar defensive play on both sides of the ball, fine.

10-6 because of fuckball and teams with shitty offenses through and through, not so much.
 
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