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NHL news: Bertuzzi charged for attack on Moore
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Kabuki Waq
Member
wow this is just getting stupid now.
Chopin Trusty Balls
First casualty in the war on idioticy.
They should rename to Wrestling on Ice.
This isn't bad for hockey.
When the attack happened, everybody reported it as what hockey is all about, and if there were no threat of serious penalty, then the general public would have no choice but to agree.
Not only is it good for hockey, but it's also the right thing to do.
When the attack happened, everybody reported it as what hockey is all about, and if there were no threat of serious penalty, then the general public would have no choice but to agree.
Not only is it good for hockey, but it's also the right thing to do.
Mike Works
Member
I would rather have what should happen in regards to HOCKEY happen instead of a result to appease the casual american fucking media.Archaix said:
It should have stayed internal, but if this really fucks Moore over, then he should get some damages as a result. Bertuzzi was an idiot who crossed the line. All it takes is one act to ruin someone's life forever. So it's that one infraction that Bertuzzi will be remembered for. He me feel genuinely sorry, but unfortunately, that don't mean shit. 
PEACE.
PEACE.KilledByBill
Member
What's with all these Bertuzzi.... apologists blaming the U.S. media for this? Do you guys need to watch what he did to Moore again? Bertuzzi is a good hockey player but he completely lost it during that game and he has to take responsibility for his actions.
It really diminishes the quality of the game when incidents like this happen. Whether its McSorely trying to take Brashear's head off with a stick, Domi giving Scott Niedermeyer a bloody concussion with an elbow to the face, or Bertuzzi tackling and slugging Steve Moore from behind there has to be severe repercussions to stamp behavior like that out of the game. It really shouldn't matter whether it's in the hands of the NHL or the Gov.
It really diminishes the quality of the game when incidents like this happen. Whether its McSorely trying to take Brashear's head off with a stick, Domi giving Scott Niedermeyer a bloody concussion with an elbow to the face, or Bertuzzi tackling and slugging Steve Moore from behind there has to be severe repercussions to stamp behavior like that out of the game. It really shouldn't matter whether it's in the hands of the NHL or the Gov.
They'd be no charges at all if Bertuzzi and his fellow Canucks idiots, er teamates hadn't been shooting their big mouths off about getting the guy a couple weeks before. He's got no one to blame but his own dumb ass. And if I was Steve Moore I'd sue Bertuzzi for so much money, I'd be collection cash from his grandkids. I imagine that'll be forthcoming.
darscot said:
How is it the context of the sport? Did he not get mutiple misconduct penalties? Doesn't a misconduct penalty by definition mean "conduct not in keeping with the context of the sport"? I suppose the guy who took that stick to the face in Hamilton was carved up in the context of the sport too (not that I feel sorry for him, he swung his stick first and simply missed).
At no time was Moore near death. Again more media hype. He never technically had a broken neck according to the medical reports. He had a non displaced fracture and not a complete fractures at that. He cracked a vertabra. Other players have had the same injury and missed a handfull of games. I know its Canada I'm just tired of people saying it was a crime when you I know damn well the same thing in any other sport would be no big deal.
Mike Works
Member
So you're saying the guy who hit Kirby Puckett in the head should've been charged with assault then.Archaix said:
darscot said:
Who gives a shit? Lay charges in those sports as well if you must. You act as if hockey is fucking ballet the way you're talking. Everyone knew that the Nucks wanted to hurt Moore, and Bert especially wanted to do so. And he did. So now he's getting his. Tough shit for him.
Again, this wouldn't be a problem if there hadn't been a lot of talk about payback by the Canucks (and I know several players and/or coaches were going on about this), and if Bertuzzi hadn't stalked Moore for like 5 minutes before cold cocking him with a sucker punch. If it was a random situation, I doubt he's getting charged.
Mike Works
Member
I'm not defending what Bertuzzi did (disclaimer out of the way), but did Bertuzzi talk about payback before the game?Shinobi said:
Also, how does him talking to him for 5 minutes (most likely "asking" him to fight) make matters worse? Would it have been better if he had not talked to him before he attacked him?
But the thing is they don't. That's my point. Bertuzzi COULD have killed a person with an action like that, but Moore was never close to dying.Archaix said:You do not want to get me started on who in baseball should be prosecuted
darscot said:
Tell that to the BC Crown...
Mike Works said:
I meant stalking (I just edited it), with the 5 minutes being an obvious exaggeration. Though I imagine those moments was slow motion for almost everyone in the building.
I just can't feel sorry for Bert...this is hardly the first "mistake" he's ever made in the game of hockey, and the situation was just stupidness in my view. I'm not gonna hope that he goes to jail, but putting a scare into him and others who believe in this frontier justice by any means neccessary bullshit in the NHL might be the only way to get rid of the mentality, since the league is obviously too pussy to do anything.
Mike Works
Member
Well, we've already had this conversation on the previous iteration of this forum before, so there's not much point in us getting into this again.Shinobi said:
What scare could the BC Crown possible put into Bert? You have to spend an extra day at Canuck Place, pay a 1000 dollar fine. It's a joke no matter how you slice it. There is nothing the Crown can do that would even compare to the punishment handed down by the NHL. And thats how it should be. Let the NHL handle there own business.
I understand your other points (that it is a tough sport), but that doesn't apply here.
Punching, in the context of hockey, is generally permitted when there is a fight. Fighting is a part of hockey.
But what Bertuzzi did was not even in the context of a fight (as Moore didn't face Bertuzzi and drop his gloves). It was a sucker punch, something that is not allowed in hockey.
It is akin to McSorely's stick to the head of Brashear. A cheap shot that dealt a lot of damage...enough damage for the Police to press charges.
It's not even close to what McSorely did. McSorley hit Brasher who was completely unaware of the hit coming in the face with a two handed slash. He then skated up and spit on Brashear as he lay convulsing on the ice.
Bert asked Moore to go he refused so he sucker punched him. It was a sucker punch of sorts as Moore didn't turn to face him. But you see wild punches thrown all the time scrambles in the crease and a guy gets up and just pops another guy. It's not that uncommon. 99% of the time it's harmless. This turned into what it was purely do to the fact that the GM of Colorado refused to read the injury report and said Bert broke his neck. No other team in the league would ever have reported the injury to the media. They did it to get the hype. If the GM of Colorado had stepped to the mic and said upper body injury. Bert probable get the rest of the season end of story. Moore broke Naslunds elbow but we didnt hear about it till the playoffs were over and it happened first.
Bert asked Moore to go he refused so he sucker punched him. It was a sucker punch of sorts as Moore didn't turn to face him. But you see wild punches thrown all the time scrambles in the crease and a guy gets up and just pops another guy. It's not that uncommon. 99% of the time it's harmless. This turned into what it was purely do to the fact that the GM of Colorado refused to read the injury report and said Bert broke his neck. No other team in the league would ever have reported the injury to the media. They did it to get the hype. If the GM of Colorado had stepped to the mic and said upper body injury. Bert probable get the rest of the season end of story. Moore broke Naslunds elbow but we didnt hear about it till the playoffs were over and it happened first.
If Bertuzze ended Moore's career, costing him millions of dollars in the process, what should happen? It's the context of the sport bullshit doesn't fly when some prick has ended your career due to unsporting play. The fact that he got a penalty means he did something outside the rules. This is fine if it was an accident, which it is in other sports.
Boxing - guys go out to injure each other, but not necessarily kill. If a death occurs though, it's accepted b/c that is the nature of the sport. However, if the boxer decks some guy after the fight is clearly over, and ends up ruining his career, then that's assault IMO. There's a line that can be crossed, and I think it's pretty much common sense.
Baseball - Again, you could possibly hurt, but if it's unintentional, then that's fine. If a pitcher goes out there with the intent to headhunt, and beans a guy, fracturing his skull and maybe putting him in a coma. You don't think there should be backlash or punishment beyond a worthless suspension? One guy is out for good b/c of another guy's actions. And those actions were not in the spirit of the game, so that constitutes assault again IMO.
You play a game. A GAME. This can't be forgotten. Sports are games meant to entertain fans and instill the thrill of competition in the participants. I don't care how heated or competitive it gets, it's still a game. You have to operate within the confines of that game, and that means you leave the thuggery at the door. Goons are a part of hockey, but there is a difference between intimidation and trying to hurt someone. You can put a lick on someone in a game without intent to injure. Ray Lewis knocks guys out of their frames every down. But I doubt he's out there looking to end someone's career. It's a game. Part of it means getting hit, but you expect the guy to get up and have another go at it. Bertuzzi crossed that line and brought a fight to a game. He deserves whatever punishment he gets IMO. PEACE.
Mike Works
Member
Ray Lewis is out there to make the tackle first and hurt the guy second. If he sees the QB completely open for the sack, do you think he's just going to push him over?Pimpwerx said:
Goons are a part of hockey, but there is a difference between intimidation and trying to hurt someone? So when two thugs get into a fight, they're just trying to intimidate one another and not try and hurt them while they're punching each other in the face?
There is definitely a factor of intimidation when it comes to physical contact in ALL sports, but if you think players never try to hurt one another, you've got some nice blinders on, buddy.
If Bert intended to injury him why was he the guy that called the trainers out. If you watch the replay with sound or actually saw the game. You would notice that the Vancouver trainers are the first guys out there. Bert never intended to hurt him he intended to punch him in the head. And he got suspended for it he deserves what the NHL gave him but enough is enough.
Mike Works
Member
Bob Boughner I think it was of the Colorado Avalanche did the same thing to a player a few weeks after this incident. Came up from behind him and sucker punched the guy in the back/side of the head.
Why aren't any of you calling for his head?
Because the person he hit didn't fall down and [Media] break his neck [/Media]. I can understand not pressing charges because of the severity of the resulting injuries, but the total lack of attention given to the matter was ridiculous.
Why aren't any of you calling for his head?
Because the person he hit didn't fall down and [Media] break his neck [/Media]. I can understand not pressing charges because of the severity of the resulting injuries, but the total lack of attention given to the matter was ridiculous.
There's no difference. Bertuzzi hit Moore, who was completely unaware of the hit coming to the side of the head. He then punched him once more while he laid unconscious on the ice.
Moore skated away from Bertuzzi, his back was away from him, and it was a good while AFTER Bertuzzi called on him to fight. It was COMPLETELY away from the play.
I think you'd understand the situation more if you've played hockey yourself.
Why should he turn to face him if he's skating towards the play?
Again, if you've ever played hockey (competitively, not piddly-ass street hockey every Saturday), you'd understand what was happening.
But they aren't blatant attacks meant to injure. THAT is the difference.
What Bertuzzi did was criminal, it's the GM's DUTY to report the incident on their end. Moore broke Naslunds nose with a clean hit, which goes back to your original point, this isn't ballet. It's a tough sport. Naslund knows that he can't complain and whine about a clean hit. It's like Yzerman complaining about the puck he got to the eye. It's a part of the game. But if it was the result of a dastardly, illegal and cowardly actions, then they have every right to tell us what happened to the victim.
Personally, I don't think Moore's hit on Naslund should have gone without a suspension.
Sure, technically it's "clean", but it's dangerous. That, I think, should be the biggest consideration.
Anyways, back to the original topic...you can disagree with me and I can disagree with you. In the end, all I have to say is that justice is being served. Nothing you or I say on this forum will change that.
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
I don't think he shoul go to Jail, or even face monetary charges (UNless Moore wants ).
So long as the guy never plays hockey again, justice will be served. He snaped once, he'll snap again.
So long as the guy never plays hockey again, justice will be served. He snaped once, he'll snap again.
First not sure what your watching but Bert hit him once and once only. He never hit him while he was down. He had his arm pulled back as the guys piled on. He never hit him again he did wave the trainers on to help Moore.
I have never heard of any injury report being read that close to playoffs. Please inform of a time when a GM is clear about injuries down the stretch or in the playoffs?
Bert did not intend to injure him. He intended to punch him in the head. Probable because Moore took a dirty hit on the captian of the team. Cut him up gave him a concusion and broke his elbow. The league may say it was clean but he was head hunting a captain. There is a price for that in the NHL you get punched in the head for that.
I don't think Moore deserved what happened to him he did deserve a punch in the head.
Bert deserved to be suspened because things went to far. That is the reality of it. Everything else is just hype from the media.
I have never heard of any injury report being read that close to playoffs. Please inform of a time when a GM is clear about injuries down the stretch or in the playoffs?
Bert did not intend to injure him. He intended to punch him in the head. Probable because Moore took a dirty hit on the captian of the team. Cut him up gave him a concusion and broke his elbow. The league may say it was clean but he was head hunting a captain. There is a price for that in the NHL you get punched in the head for that.
I don't think Moore deserved what happened to him he did deserve a punch in the head.
Bert deserved to be suspened because things went to far. That is the reality of it. Everything else is just hype from the media.
Someone call a doctor! I shot this guy with the intent of just grazing him to intimidate. But I think I shot him in the face instead. It's pretty bad. I feel sorry about what happened, but don't be mad at me, b/c I only intended to scare him, not kill him.
Intent means shit when it was clearly a cheapshot. He didn't even square up with the guy where you can say his injuries were due to lack of skill at fighting. This was a blindsided cheapshot that may not have been intended to injure, but it did. Every action has a consequence. Bertuzzi must have assumed that there was a chance, even slight, that he could have done some serious damage. If he didn't, then he's an idiot. He now has to accept the consequences for his actions. I don't think an apology will bring back Moore's career or the money. It's a copout after the fact. Hockey is violent, but how many guys end careers due to intentional action? Not many. It's usually an accident. This was not, so there's no excuse. Bertuzzis isn't the victim here, Moore is. Bertuzzio can still play on the ice without a threat to his life. You can't say the same for Moore.
Don't get me wrong. I would have preferred for this case to have stayed in hockey. That Red Wings player could have sued Claude Lemieux those years ago for jacking him up, but he didn't. If it can be resolved ammicably, then great. But if Moore wants to press charges, then I can't fault him for that. It seems fully warranted given the circumstances. PEACE.
Do you guys even follow the story. Moore has not lost a dime and his career is not over. If his career is over it's because the Avalanche line up is a tough one to crack and he is on the bubble. It has nothing to do with his injuries he will make a full recovery and should suffer no effect of the punch. Do you guys think that NHL players are not insured for exactly this kind of thing? ALl this talk of law suits and Moore pressing charges is more media hype. Moore has not charged Bert with anything!
I'm not getting into this again - I don't have the emotional energy to expend. But I will say this:
- Shinobi, the only two members of the Canucks organization who were popping off in the media regarding retaliation against Moore for the Naslund hit were Brad May and Marc Crawford. Nobody else.
- Bertuzzi's hit absolutely deserved an investigation by the Crown, especially considering the similar circumstances under which the McSorley incident occurred. McSorley had been goading Brashear the entire game to try and fight, and Brashear (rightly) refused, since the Canucks were handing the Bruins their ass. It was at the end of the game that McSorley boiled over and attacked Brashear with the stick. Is there a marked difference between barking at a guy for 5 minutes to fight as opposed to barking at him for 55? That's not for me to say.
- The Colorado Avalanche's Bob Boughner pulled a near carbon-copy against Jonathan Cheechoo of the San Jose Sharks a few weeks later and there was NO ATTENTION paid to it at all. That was more galling than anything else, although I'm glad Cheechoo wasn't hurt.
Now, whether or not Moore can turn around to sue Bertuzzi, I'm a little dicey on. I'm sure Bob Goodenow has his lips to the ears of Moore's and Bertuzzi's representatives, and if this was all swept under the rug - depending on the outcome of the court case - I wouldn't be surprised one iota. I'm not saying that it's right or wrong, but it is the way of the world when it comes to business and the amount of money involved.
- Shinobi, the only two members of the Canucks organization who were popping off in the media regarding retaliation against Moore for the Naslund hit were Brad May and Marc Crawford. Nobody else.
- Bertuzzi's hit absolutely deserved an investigation by the Crown, especially considering the similar circumstances under which the McSorley incident occurred. McSorley had been goading Brashear the entire game to try and fight, and Brashear (rightly) refused, since the Canucks were handing the Bruins their ass. It was at the end of the game that McSorley boiled over and attacked Brashear with the stick. Is there a marked difference between barking at a guy for 5 minutes to fight as opposed to barking at him for 55? That's not for me to say.
- The Colorado Avalanche's Bob Boughner pulled a near carbon-copy against Jonathan Cheechoo of the San Jose Sharks a few weeks later and there was NO ATTENTION paid to it at all. That was more galling than anything else, although I'm glad Cheechoo wasn't hurt.
Now, whether or not Moore can turn around to sue Bertuzzi, I'm a little dicey on. I'm sure Bob Goodenow has his lips to the ears of Moore's and Bertuzzi's representatives, and if this was all swept under the rug - depending on the outcome of the court case - I wouldn't be surprised one iota. I'm not saying that it's right or wrong, but it is the way of the world when it comes to business and the amount of money involved.
Mike Works
Member
1) Naslund getting elbowed/checked when he was down on lower ice level by a rookie who wasn't even looking for the puck is the same as Yzerman getting hit in the face with a puck? Are you joking?Fight for Freeform said:
2) How is justice being served if he gets charged but not prosecuted (yet)?
3) Why aren't you mad about what Bougner did?
Because taking a "clean" hit from the opposition and getting hit in the face with the puck are both things that are part of the risk you take when playing the game. Both can be injury causing, but neither causes of injury are illegal practices within the game.
Because Moore deserves to have the police look into the situation and lay charges. The incident was charge worthy.
Had there been no charges, I would consider it an injustice.
Nevermind the outcome of the situation...I'm not here to see Bertuzzi go to jail for years on end or anything like that. I think that what's fair is that charges are laid against him, and that this sends a message to everyone in the NHL, and hopefully professional sports, that you cannot intend to hurt someone within the guise of sport and get away with it.
Of course I'm mad, where did I say that I wasn't? Frankly I think that by that time they should realize that suspensions should not be handed out simply when someone is 'sufficiently' injured, but when the action become dangerous. When the action clearly had some intent behind it, no matter what the resulting injury is, there should be a suspension.
I didn't bring up what Boughner did because it's not a part of this thread. I can go on and on regarding my opinions on certain hits, for you to gain insight about my opinion. But really, my opinion shouldn't matter much to you guys
. We are discussing something that's already been decided.I'm not going to read this thread. I'd probably end up replying to a million things. But I do want to say one thing that I had discussed with someone earlier.
The law can not be applied to sport, unless it is 100%. There are constant assaults. Hell, there are probably more sucker punches in basketball than hockey [hockey has the advantage of consent, therefore it often avoids sucker punches that instigate]. Some very severe that never get addressed. However, when a certain boundary is crossed, whether it concerns the actual attack or the consequences, then practically the full extent of the law is suddenly imposed on the game. It doesn't make any fucking sense.
The crown needs to either be somewhat consistent or simply fuck off and let the NHL handle its business.
The law can not be applied to sport, unless it is 100%. There are constant assaults. Hell, there are probably more sucker punches in basketball than hockey [hockey has the advantage of consent, therefore it often avoids sucker punches that instigate]. Some very severe that never get addressed. However, when a certain boundary is crossed, whether it concerns the actual attack or the consequences, then practically the full extent of the law is suddenly imposed on the game. It doesn't make any fucking sense.
The crown needs to either be somewhat consistent or simply fuck off and let the NHL handle its business.
darscot said:
Well maybe he'll do that if he plea bargains, which in one instance might not be a bad idea. Problem of course is that Bert could easily do something similiar in a future Canucks home game, and then what? You don't really want to set yourself up like that by admitting guilty.
Mike Works said:
But again, Bert tried to hurt Moore outside the confines of the game. It wasn't a one on one fight, or a clean, open ice bodycheck. It was a cold cock from behind. In football a QB knows that if a linebacker is wide open to plow his ass, he's gonna do it. That's acceptable risk. But once he's thrown the ball (plus a second or two for forward motion), he's no longer allowed to be nailed. If he is it's outside of the confines of the game, and he's penalized accordingly.
Mike Works said:
The same thing happened with McSorley...how many people defended him when he got charged? Next to no one outside of Don Cherry. Meanwhile you had several stick swings to the head in the following months that barely got a sniff by anyone. Such is life...every few years someone gets polarized for their actions (that player in Hamilton got the same sort of deal, even though all he did was merely retialiate with the exact same maneuver in an instant). But that's just all the more reason why Bertuzzi should've thought about the consequences before doing what he did. And he did it in the very same town and rink where McSorely got charged (with him being on the other bench), so it isn't like he couldn't have known what the possible ramifications were if he went overboard.
BTW, it's easy to ask the Crown to be consistent...I'd say the NHL oughta be first in line for that admonishment. As has been noted, this league has a nasty habit of laying into someone thick for an incident, while ignoring similiar occurances that happen just weeks later with little to no action. The BC Crown doesn't look after the league...it simply looks after what happens in BC. They already charged McSorley, and for that reason alone they almost had to charge Bertuzzi. So in effect, they are being consistent.
Come on. We (you) could bitch about the NHL all day, but that isn't what is at hand [in my post].
Sure, but consistent relative to what? This was my point:
"However, when a certain boundary is crossed, whether it concerns the actual attack or the consequences, then practically the full extent of the law is suddenly imposed on the game."
Whether that concerns McSorley or Bertuzzi, it doesn't matter.
Well it's consistent relative to the McSorley charge. Again, where were the people that defend McSorley? I didn't see 'em. There's a lot more defending going on with Bertuzzi, partly because there are more Canuck fans and partly because he's a player with actual talent in the prime of his career, as opposed to McSorley who was nothing but a goon in the twilight of his career at that point.
The question of course is should McSorley have been charged in the first place? I don't think so. But since they set the precedent with that case (and precedent is a foundation for law), they had little choice but to charge Bertuzzi. That's just the way it is.
The question of course is should McSorley have been charged in the first place? I don't think so. But since they set the precedent with that case (and precedent is a foundation for law), they had little choice but to charge Bertuzzi. That's just the way it is.
Yep - if the Crown had decided not to press charges, that would have made the BC justice system look like a bunch of amateurish homers. Like I said, I have no issue with the investigation, or even Todd being charged - and I'm the biggest booster of Bert on these boards.
You have to take responsibility for your actions. I'm just peeved that the NHL picks and chooses which incidents get wrist-slapped and which ones get megaton'd.
You have to take responsibility for your actions. I'm just peeved that the NHL picks and chooses which incidents get wrist-slapped and which ones get megaton'd.
Bertuzzi's involvement has inspired me, no doubt. But my argument remains independent of him. The relation between the NHL and the law, I mean. It's been enlightening. McSorley or Bertuzzi - it's bogus to me. You can't simply turn a blind eye to 99% of the unlawful shit that happens and then select particular cases based purely on ambiguous consequences and circumstances. It's such a weird, unstable relationship.
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