alucard0712_rus
Banned
I'd like to like Nintendo but cartridges killed it for me. No textures - no win.
Also hated PS for texture warping, lol.
Also hated PS for texture warping, lol.
I wouldn't hold Wipeout at 20 FPS against Saturn in a comparison with N64. The frame rate of this game is hardly an indictment of the hardware. The truth is that N64 was also a strong contender for 20 FPS chugfest champion and Wipeout 64 slowed down in multiplayer like a lot of multiplayer games. So many N64 games had slowdown, even top titles like Goldeneye, Ocarina of Time and Mario 64. Frame rates weren't scrutinized then like they are now. We kind of accepted it as part of the transition to 3D polygons from 2D sprites.Dude, no, that thread is the worst place to get informed about the N64. Sega 16 members are absolutely biased agaist the console and will scratch the bottom of the barrel to find things to say against it.
Yet, they didn't even know Wipeout on their beloved Saturn run at 20 fps.
It was a good forum a long time ago where some knowlegable members would share technical info but they left and its been just a Sega fanboy pit for a while now.
and it's a bit exaggerated about Saturn not being able to do "true" transparencies.
It's only one game but Doom 64 is the most well aged game from that whole generarion IMO. Perfect 30 fps frame rate, sharp graphics and textures and the best use of the Doom engine oficially, ouside modern source engines ofc.Growing up with N64, I can confirm that most of the games did not age well imho.
I didnt say it was. Neither it does for the N64. I pointed out the lack of knowledge by the Sega 16 members for their favorite console. They were so eager to point out how some N64 games like Wave Race run at 20 fps but when they learned Wipeout on Saturn also does run like so it was like a red pill moment for them.I wouldn't hold Wipeout at 20 FPS against Saturn in a comparison with N64. The frame rate of this game is hardly an indictment of the hardware.
It's only one game but Doom 64 is the most well aged game from that whole generarion IMO. Perfect 30 fps frame rate, sharp graphics and textures and the best use of the Doom engine oficially, ouside modern source engines ofc.
There are a few other games that aged well. Banjo-Kazooie has a nice balance of good enough frame rate, good textures and architecture. F-Zero X is still as fluid as ever and controls feel much tighter than GX IMO. Graphics are simple yes but that doesnt prevent it from being a well aged game.
Most N64 games will benefit from a CRT, more so than PSX or Saturn. On a modern display the N64 faires the worst. But on a CRT, Banjo-Kazooie might as well be the best looking game of that generation.
N64 games didn't age very well. I love NES/SNES games and even 90s Build Engine Shooters or DOOM and so on, but N64 are tough to play for me.Growing up with N64, I can confirm that most of the games did not age well imho. This includes fan favorites like Mario Kart 64 and the original Smash Bros.
PS2 graphic wise succeeded partly to the support but the other and very important part was that the system had the capability for displaying those effects it was very difficult to use but the capabilities are there and developer little by little exploited most of it, is not enough to give support to a system the system requires something on it to achieve the desired effects and performance, in saturn case it was difficult to use but only to obtain a subpar result(in 3d) in most cases compared to playstation,
there were interesting ideas like the infinite planes, but there were a lot of resources wasted in the way the quads get together wasting fillrate, saturn while relied on multi processing it wasnt the only console to do that, other earlier consoles also used many processors, even in playstation we saw very amazing at the time effects such as a video in the background with 3d graphics on top that requires multi processing too,
ps2 was a difficult to use console because it was radically different in its way of doing 3d, but it had a clear idea of what it wanted to achieve and had paths to use it in an easy way and others more complex, in saturn it appear as a mismatch and by some interviews of the time it appear it was a lot of different engineers wanting to put something on it just for the sake of it, it has very memorable games and is a good system but oh boy it has lot of problems
do you have any idea of how the game internally work in order to do those transparencies?, they are extremely important because the game is everything about translucent fire any third party at the time in their place will simply cancel the game or move it to playstation
Ill search for a video that explains
I think "only usable under limited conditions" is a better description - but the conditions were sufficiently limited that even a lot of highly competent developers decided not to bother. The basic issue is that the Saturn texture scaling does quite large amounts of overdraw - with a fully opaque texture you can't see this because whatever was written last wins (although it sometimes causes texture shimmer with a moving camera) - but with blending turned on the results were pretty ugly because the blending effect was applied multiple times and the more times it was applied the less of the background color remained. The worst case was when dealing with a degenerate quad with two coincident vertices - as you got closer to the merged vertices the overdraw rate went up and the transparency effect got weaker.
If you were using a texture that only used a shear transformation, it rendered OK because each pixel was only being written once. But a lot of developers (IMO, quite reasonably) just threw their hands in the air and decided to use screen door transparency on the 3D stuff and only use HW transparency for the BGs since that worked without problems.
I think, as shown in the "Most impressive 3D-Games for the Sega Saturn" thread, it wasn't just about huge/first party productions but simply the level of know how, talent and care of the studio involved in a game's development. Many of Saturn's great looking games are by smaller companies and teams. Not that they reach peak performance and leave the best of PlayStation in the dust (like most PlayStation games don't do that either), but good, solid games with good, solid graphics that on the whole don't look like they come from a different generation as some people seem to believe.Well I think in a lot of cases it came down to the developer. Sega's own 1P efforts, the ones that weren't rushed, were up there with the best 3D PlayStation games from 1995-1997 and in some cases exceeded them. VF2 was the best-looking and running 3D fighter on the market for a while from a technical POV, and had higher resolution than any PS1 game. Internal efforts like Clockwork Knight were visually as good as early 2.5D platformers on PS1, etc.
Well I think in a lot of cases it came down to the developer. Sega's own 1P efforts, the ones that weren't rushed, were up there with the best 3D PlayStation games from 1995-1997 and in some cases exceeded them. VF2 was the best-looking and running 3D fighter on the market for a while from a technical POV, and had higher resolution than any PS1 game. Internal efforts like Clockwork Knight were visually as good as early 2.5D platformers on PS1, etc.
The problem was that only Sega's 1P studios had best SDK access at the start, and most of their internal teams were more accustomed to parallel processing, especially the arcade studios like AM2 (who made the much-improved SGL 2.0 SDK for later 1995 that eventually got out to 3P devs). I'm well aware that certain 3D effects that were automated on PS1, like transparencies and certain lighting effects, you had to put in more work to get them on Saturn. I also know that there were pipeline issues with the dual CPU approach since they couldn't both access the bus simultaneously, and other things like that.
PD2 Zwei is an on rail shooter and even then its visuals arent as good as warhawk(free movement) to give an example, you can speak about its awesome music, lore, art and design were top notch at the time but not its graphics or its tech were better than other games on the marketBut, not every subpar 3D game on Saturn was purely due to the hardware, considering a lot of them were from 3P devs who prioritized PS1 in part due to its design and in part due to "Sony money" currying favor with the publishers who then dictated what the teams would focus on. Because, again, the hardware itself was very capable of 3D in the right hands when you look at 1P efforts; there was very little on the market for ANY market that matched the visuals of PD Zwei in 1996, for example.
N64 games didn't age very well. I love NES/SNES games and even 90s Build Engine Shooters or DOOM and so on, but N64 are tough to play for me.
I generally would say that 2D games aged much better than 3D games.I'd actually go a step further and argue that a large majority of games from all gens havent aged well or weren't even that enjoyable for their era to begin with.
JRPGs, fighting games, NHL titles, and shmups seem to hold up best. Maybe I'm just biased to my taste though.
I generally would say that 2D games aged much better than 3D games.
its debatable but at the time the best looking fightiung game was considered to be battle arena toshinden the scenes in VF2(and tekken) were very poor in comparrison, I suggest you to read the game press of the era from america and japan they directly compared it to VF2(saturn version) and tekken and considered toshinden the better looking game
PD2 Zwei is an on rail shooter and even then its visuals arent as good as warhawk(free movement) to give an example, you can speak about its awesome music, lore, art and design were top notch at the time but not its graphics or its tech
sorry but what you mean by this?:
part due to its design and in part due to "Sony money"
this sounds as a very poor argument you said "very little in the market compared to PD2 Zwei(1996)" but you obviously missed games like warhawk(1995) and then you claim sony paid developers when "the system design wasnt a problem" how you determine when the system is not a problem? how you know sony paid developers on every other case? sorry but sound as a baseless accusation I am surprised you dont accuse nintedo too since Yamauchi was in office back then and we know how he pressed third party specially during the master system era
the technical problems of the saturn are well known you can read about it
![]()
Questions about Sega Saturn
Good day! Have some questions about Sega Saturn. Actualy I have a lot of them, but I will not ask all already. 1) What advantage was to have two CPUs in Sega Saturn? 2) How big really was the problem with two CPUs with one memory bus? 3) Why did main RAM was split in two parts SDRAM and DRAM...forum.beyond3d.com
Not the one time that mattered....when you chose the N64 over the PS1 as a child! LOL!Laugh all you want dude, but I'm picking the console with Tekken, Ape Escape, and the Squaresoft games every time.
That sucks, it was really good back in the day (if I am remembering the correct site, that is).Dude, no, that thread is the worst place to get informed about the N64. Sega 16 members are absolutely biased agaist the console and will scratch the bottom of the barrel to find things to say against it.
Yet, they didn't even know Wipeout on their beloved Saturn run at 20 fps.
It was a good forum a long time ago where some knowlegable members would share technical info but they left and its been just a Sega fanboy pit for a while now.
Are you sure you're not thinking of VF1 or VF Remix? VF2 was one of the few Saturn games that the American gaming press praised. For good reason. I'm sure there were exceptions, but I vividly remember BAT always being compared to VF1 and Remix, because VF1 and BAT were both launch titles. VF2 took shit to a different level, but that is just my opinion. I don't think I was as impressed with such a graphical leap until Quake (and probably GLQuake, at that).its debatable but at the time the best looking fightiung game was considered to be battle arena toshinden the scenes in VF2(and tekken) were very poor in comparrison, I suggest you to read the game press of the era from america and japan they directly compared it to VF2(saturn version) and tekken and considered toshinden the better looking game
Every generation has the cream everyone remembers and the shit everyone doesn't. Hell, I consider Yar's Revenge to be one of the greats, and that's from the 2600 era. I still play it a couple of times a year. I don't mean "for it's time", I mean fucking GREAT.I'd actually go a step further and argue that a large majority of games from all gens havent aged well or weren't even that enjoyable for their era to begin with.
JRPGs, fighting games, NHL titles, and shmups seem to hold up best. Maybe I'm just biased to my taste though.
P polybius80 is just willfully ignorant of what the Saturn has showcased and doesn't want to educate himself but just start list wars shit so he can always point to this one prettier game, as if anyone ever said the Saturn trashed the PlayStation rather than that it wasn't so awful in comparison.Well that's a MASSIVE lol for whatever press at the time considered Toshinden better-looking than Saturn VF2 or even Tekken 1 IMO. You can say it arguably had better character designs than those games, but VF2 Saturn was a lot smoother and so was Tekken. Both games also had better texture work and better attack animations in terms of fluidity.
Graphics include art and artistic design, and those were areas where it shined especially over games like Warhawk. While a more apt comparison would be to other on-rail shooters, games like PD Zwei still look as good if not better than many of the best-looking PS1 games from that pre-1998 period, and in Zwei's case art design played a massive role in it.
And, for what things it would've had a hard time replicating tech-wise if it were a more open shooter like Warhawk, the same could be said for Warhawk if it were a rail shooter.
Zwei did a lot of great work with VDP2 tech which would've been very difficult to replicate on PS1 hardware.
I am not saying there are no deals but you refer to every time "the system is not a problem" then not recognize the shortcoming of the games and now you are mixing art style as the technology involved in graphics which is the discussionIt's not a poor argument; that's part of what happened at the time. Sony did in fact make lucrative deals with a lot of 3P publishers, including Western ones, in an effort to sway support away from Nintendo and Sega and towards PlayStation. If you think financial incentives weren't in play for securing things like Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest or (late into its dev cycle) prioritizing PS1 for extra polish on games like Tomb Raider, then you should probably think on it a bit more.
I'm not saying money is the only reason a lot of developers ended up preferring PS1, far from it, but it DID factor pretty notably into that preference. That's the way it is with any other entertainment industry, so a company knowing how that could work in those fields like Sony, why would they not leverage it to gain an advantage in gaming when the opportunity was there to do so?
When I said "very little in the market compared to PD Zwei", I don't know why you bring up Warhawk to contest that when that would probably be one of the few games which did, so it would justify my statement. Even so, they are two different styles of shooters, and artistically they go for very different things, tho if I were being honest on as an artistic whole, Zwei trumps Warhawk but that doesn't make Warhawk unimpressive for its era, far from it. I also don't see how me saying Sony used their financial resources to curry up various deals and provide support for developers which in turn would've leaned their preferences to PS1, contradict with me also saying that the system design was friendly to work with. Both things can be true simultaneously.
These aren't baseless accusations; they're common-sense conclusions based on what we know in terms of business practices from platform holders today, combined with understanding of their financial and technical resources available to them at the time they entered the market. And, in Sony's case, knowing they would have expertise in terms of marketing and product deals from other entertainment sectors like film and music, they would utilize within their gaming efforts as well. Speaking of Nintendo, I've definitely talked of their anti-competitive licensing agreements in the Famicom/NES era, and the fact they were among the worst with licensing costs for platform holders of the time. They were even successfully sued in NA on anti-trust violation grounds in 1991 and had to provide rebates to NES owners due to it!
I already said so in another post, but that is EXACTLY my memory of the time, regarding BAT vs VF in the press (and USENET wars, lol). I do remember, after VF2 (Saturn) came out, a LOT of coping about how the high frame rate didn’t matter because “the eye can’t see more than 30 fps” and “VF2 resolution sucks because it’s interlaced”. Heh.Watch them @ 480p, and it becommes increasingly obvious Toshinden is the least visually impressive of the three. It also had a lower native resolution; you might be confusing VF2 with VF1 (non-Remix); Japanese and especially American magazines regularly compared Toshinden to VF1 on Saturn and considered Toshinden better visually, which it was. But very few said similar for Toshinden when compared to Tekken 1 (outside of probably character design), and especially when compared to VF2 on Saturn.
The game is artificially locked at 20 fps I hacked the game to unlock the frame rate and it goes beyond 20 fpsDude, no, that thread is the worst place to get informed about the N64. Sega 16 members are absolutely biased agaist the console and will scratch the bottom of the barrel to find things to say against it.
Yet, they didn't even know Wipeout on their beloved Saturn run at 20 fps.
It was a good forum a long time ago where some knowlegable members would share technical info but they left and its been just a Sega fanboy pit for a while now.
You're officially the first person I've put on Ignore on NeoGAF.
![]()
yes my bad wrong bat and wrong vfAre you sure you're not thinking of VF1 or VF Remix? VF2 was one of the few Saturn games that the American gaming press praised. For good reason. I'm sure there were exceptions, but I vividly remember BAT always being compared to VF1 and Remix, because VF1 and BAT were both launch titles. VF2 took shit to a different level, but that is just my opinion. I don't think I was as impressed with such a graphical leap until Quake (and probably GLQuake, at that).
not tech wise
no sorry, an on rail shooter commonly looks better than other games for their simple nature of being a corridor where scenes are severely restrictedand even in those circumstances zwei have a lot of grahical problems compared to games like warhawk for example you can compare episode 3 of zwei and the walls and the same giant 3d sprites trees repeated over an over
the same applies to the rest of the game, its graphics tech wise are not really on par to what was available in similar games
sure the infinite planes are good feature that PS1 and N64 can have a hard time replicating, but on the other hand when it comes to more basic features like the gouraud of the saturn where the banding is way more pronounced
and ilumination doesnt looks as good or look basically absent then the saturn had a difficult time replicating and lets not forget that while infinite planes are nice and good the drawdistance of the rest of elements was tipically shorter than the other consoles so pop up was a more annoying problem on saturn, even with the gradient of travelers tale
I am not saying there are no deals but you refer to every time "the system is not a problem" then not recognize the shortcoming of the games and now you are mixing art style as the technology involved in graphics which is the discussion
there are thousands of games that generatation you first said that sony paid when the system wasnt a problem then you argued that the deals sony did were proof wich is a poor argument as there are thousands of games, then you back tracking saying that money wasnt the only reason it appear you are trying to hard to not recongnize the playstation was a mucn more attractive system for its simplicity and power instead you try to sustain that sony paid everybody to prioritize over saturn which is ridiculous
oh don't be confused, I chosed warhawk because it was the most similar games and was already on the system I wanted to use elemental gearbolt but was released in 1997 so its not fair
I could simply say "crash bandicoot" as that also works in a corridor(in most scenes) its not a flying shooter but tech wise has better textures, illumination, probably better polycounts overall and how the character 3d model works was very innovative but of course can be argued its a different game which I try to avoid in a comparison, warhawk' freedom works against it graphic wise yet it still its better tech-wise than PD2
yes they are, you are using false equivalence to try to make an argument wich you are trying to change above as you realized made exaggerations, just because sony made some deals it doesnt mean there are deals to prioritize ps1 over saturn on every game released for both system or canceled in saturn,
in fact there are notable examples of the contrary as takara released a toshinden 2 ura a special version with lot of exclusive content despite toshinden games being very related to playstation brand at the time yet tech wise was horrible,
another example is quake, why sony didnt paid for a quake port specially when lobotomy already had a working prototype? why duke nukem was worst on psx and the saturn used slavedriver as engine if sony pays everybody?
shouldnt playstation use that engine instead? oh it was published by sega so sega paid to sabotage playstation version? of course not, the dev had trouble with the engine and nobody offered a bigger budget as simple as that similar to the doom port for saturn
<snip>
All games with locked fps will go higher if you unlock them. The lock is there for consistency and to maintain a stable frame rate that syncs with the TV. Most devs prefer that over a higher but also variable frame rate.The game is artificially locked at 20 fps I hacked the game to unlock the frame rate and it goes beyond 20 fps
Honestly, I'm sure several (a lot of?) developers needed an actual incentive to make a game for the PSX. Nintendo and Sega had been in the console game for forever, and Sony was a new unknown (with consoles, that is). If I'm a developer I have to ask myself if it's worth it to bother trying to learn the ropes for coding a game on a new console that was made by a company who has never made a console before. I mean sure they worked with console parts, but this was Sony's first foray into an industry that they had only had background/behind-the-scenes involvement in up until this point. I think incentives definitely helped some developers work with Sony, and I think that once they began working with Sony they found that there was a lot Sony had to offer to solidify their involvement with the PSX going forward. I could be wrong, but it makes sense in my head.![]()
Honestly, I'm sure several (a lot of?) developers needed an actual incentive to make a game for the PSX. Nintendo and Sega had been in the console game for forever, and Sony was a new unknown (with consoles, that is). If I'm a developer I have to ask myself if it's worth it to bother trying to learn the ropes for coding a game on a new console that was made by a company who has never made a console before. I mean sure they worked with console parts, but this was Sony's first foray into an industry that they had only had background/behind-the-scenes involvement in up until this point. I think incentives definitely helped some developers work with Sony, and I think that once they began working with Sony they found that there was a lot Sony had to offer to solidify their involvement with the PSX going forward. I could be wrong, but it makes sense in my head.![]()
True, but none of this was unique to Sony and in the case of 3DO publishers didn't have to pay any royalties whatsoever. But back to Nintendo, they also had a practice of limiting cart production by certain publishers and even certain game releases. IIRC Square got pissed at them doing this with one of their latter SFC/SNES releases (and that of course played a part in them leaving Nintendo 5th-gen).My understanding is that the primary incentive Sony used was waiving the license fees for the first {x} games for the early adopters/. They were also a lot more flexible in their handling of excess production - if you ordered too many carts from Nintendo and the game didn't sell well, that was your problem. Sony were willing to consider cancelling the license fee in this case although you still had to pay the media costs that was a much smaller amount of money than would be the case with ROM carts.
True, but none of this was unique to Sony and in the case of 3DO publishers didn't have to pay any royalties whatsoever. But back to Nintendo, they also had a practice of limiting cart production by certain publishers and even certain game releases. IIRC Square got pissed at them doing this with one of their later SFC/SNES releases (and that of course played a part in them leaving Nintendo 5th-gen).
Sega's own policy with cart orders had its strictness too but it was a ways bit more lenient than Nintendo's, and publishers like EA got very good agreements altho even then, they were up to their shady practices that have made them infamous today (reverse-engineering MegaDrive and using it against Sega).
CD ROM.What was innovative about PSone? Buying out 3rd party exclusives? N64 by a mile.
You need to remove these ones as PlayStation had them too (hell even Windows did).Audio innovations: N64 had support for surround sound, so, the list will also have: *Dolbly Surround
* ADPCM compression (here's why the N64 sounds doesn't take the same space as redbook audio)
Thanks for the input. I'll edit my post to reflect this info.The PSX had support for Dolby and used both Pro-Logic and Pro-Logic II mixing if the game included a mix for it. Off the top of my head I believe Croc on PS1 even had the Dolby logo to indicate that in the options screen. I believe Alien Resurrection was one of the few late stage
I know you've just edited this in, ...but that's also something the PS1 could do with a plug-in too. Hell in that case the PS1 also supported VCD and SVCD too via plug-in cards to inject custom BIOS.Audio innovations: N64 had support to
*MP3 playback.
Oh, another thing that I didn't know. I knew that I've missed some things when I was making the list and was wondering what cuold be in the place of what was removed, then I remembered that some Rare games use MP3 to encode audio, and putted that in. Out of curiosity, what's the case when PS1 make use of MP3?I know you've just edited this in, ...but that's also something the PS1 could do with a plug-in too. Hell in that case the PS1 also supported VCD and SVCD too via plug-in cards to inject custom BIOS.
Oh, another thing that I didn't know. I knew that I've missed some things when I was making the list and was wondering what cuold be in the place of what was removed, then I remembered that some Rare games use MP3 to encode audio, and putted that in. Out of curiosity, what's the case when PS1 make use of MP3?
Edit: you talked about VCD features through a third party accessory, but N64 also had that, music CD and ROM on CD with Doctor V64. In fact, when making the N64 list, I choose not to include any 3rd party accessory or adapter of any kind, as, in my opinion, they don't represent an innovation made by the console manufacturer itself.
Cool! I will look for some footage of it playing some VCDs. I think that could make a huge success if it were launched here in Brasil. In any case, that's some pretty interesting thing to put in a PSX list, of someone is willing to make one.The PSX was capable of playing Video CD without any add-on hardware - but only if you got the specific model that could do that. It never sold very well simply because the third-party cards were cheaper and hence it was dropped after a single product generation.
![]()
Cool! I will look for some footage of it playing some VCDs. I think that could make a huge success if it were launched here in Brasil. In any case, that's some pretty interesting thing to put in a PSX list, of someone is willing to make one.
Thank you very much, but I found a pretty interesting video. It's in this link, if anyone is curious:The model number is SCPH-5903 - if you have problems finding any video then I can record some for you, although I'm not sure I have any VCDs around any more - if not, there are usually still people selling them at the market in Sham Shui Po so I'm sure I can get my hands on some.