Support NeoGAF

[RetroGamingUK]

This post was provided to you by IgnorantGamingUK

Oh, a Neo Member.

3D adventure was just kicking when Saturn was alive. Unless you are comparing to Playstation games from 1998/1999 which people love to do (but in this case we should look at Dreamcast games, not Saturn. Because these were Dreamcast years for Segafans, Sonic Adventure suddenly counts ! OUCH). Tomb Raider II and III might have been released if it wasn't for Sony paying for exclusivity. II was in development.

3D platformers : see 3D adventure

And yes, we got Burning Rangers that fits these categories, and this game is awesome. Bulk Slash is also pretty excellent.

Driving : so we are not counting both Wipeouts, Destruction Derby, Daytona USA and CE, High Velocity, Initial D, Need for Speed, Road Rash etc...

RPG : so Mystaria, Dragon Force and Shining the Holy Ark never existed in the West. "Japan got Grandia" lol. Japan got like a gazillion RPGs on Saturn, a ton were awesome. Lunar remakes, Wachenroder, Terra Phantastica, Atlus games and obviously Grandia.

Sports : so we are ignoring all SEGA sports games, including Sega Worldwide Soccer games, the excellent NHL and NBA games by SEGA (especially the 98 games), Winter Heat, Steep Slope Sliders etc...

You didn't talk about shmups as well, while this is an area in which the Saturn was an excellent console. You probably omitted it involuntary.

Conclusion : if we ignore all the games released on Saturn, Saturn had no games.

Tomb Raider II and III - there’s mixed stories regarding these, regardless of the causes, for customers Tomb Raider II not coming to Saturn was a huge blow considering the original was THE game of Christmas 96 for both PS1 and Saturn. I think E3 1997 was the point where many Saturn owners just gave up on the platform.

Driving games - again, Sega Rally was the only really good one. The original Daytona played well but was an ugly mess, the CCE remake looked nice but was incredibly dull to play in comparison. The rest of your list was largely late ports with horrendous frame rate drops, pop in and ugly mesh transparencies

As for the shmups, hard to form an opinion as I never got to play any of them (I think Bernie Stolar is to blame for that). I think by the mid-late 90s these kinds of games were seen as a throwback in the west and wouldn’t have sold well.

 

[Alexios]

This post was provided to you by IgnorantGamingUK

Oh, a Neo Member.

3D adventure was just kicking when Saturn was alive. Unless you are comparing to Playstation games from 1998/1999 which people love to do (but in this case we should look at Dreamcast games, not Saturn. Because these were Dreamcast years for Segafans, Sonic Adventure suddenly counts ! OUCH). Tomb Raider II and III might have been released if it wasn't for Sony paying for exclusivity. II was in development.

3D platformers : see 3D adventure

And yes, we got Burning Rangers that fits these categories, and this game is awesome. Bulk Slash is also pretty excellent.

Driving : so we are not counting both Wipeouts, Destruction Derby, Daytona USA and CE, High Velocity, Initial D, Need for Speed, Road Rash etc...

RPG : so Mystaria, Dragon Force and Shining the Holy Ark never existed in the West. "Japan got Grandia" lol. Japan got like a gazillion RPGs on Saturn, a ton were awesome. Lunar remakes, Wachenroder, Terra Phantastica, Atlus games and obviously Grandia.

Sports : so we are ignoring all SEGA sports games, including Sega Worldwide Soccer games, the excellent NHL and NBA games by SEGA (especially the 98 games), Winter Heat, Steep Slope Sliders etc...

You didn't talk about shmups as well, while this is an area in which the Saturn was an excellent console. You probably omitted it involuntary.

Conclusion : if we ignore all the games released on Saturn, Saturn had no games.

Facts. Saturn has way more great games in a diverse range of genres, arcade or longform, than most folks ever played on systems with the best attach rates (even counting rentals). Trolls who harp on WipEout XL not being as good as on PS (despite a larger draw distance, so similar to the Tomb Raider differences between the two systems) somehow don't have a problem with games that perform similarly or worse on PS/N64 because then it's somehow worth it to play them, it's only when a game on Saturn isn't 60fps that it's so important it becomes unplayable and it doesn't count

Noone said it's as powerful as PlayStation/N64 (in 3D) but it wasn't a gen behind or bad either.

Oh wow, out of the 6 3D action heavy titles here half are actually 60 fps! No way, Saturn sucks!

Saturn can't do lighting, don't see games like PDS (and the other half above) & think different!

Oh noes, why don't all games use pure polygons like on PS to be so much better than on Saturn?!

Who cares if a game's moving skies, water, flat ground or whatever isn't true polygons but uses other parts of the hardware? How stupid would it be to render it with polygons just to appease that thinking when it looks so great in many games using it correctly/artistically? Just earlier someone posted wireframe shots of how Tekken 3's flat 2D backgrounds actually use polygons when doing a similar effect years earlier on Saturn with VF2 and DOA (in all cases because neither Saturn nor PS could have the arcade full 3D stages) or later with Fighters Megamix was done with VDP2, so what when results are similar? If anything it means the PS was less efficient in that, having to use all those polygons just to have a 2D background that won't distort to hell and back as the camera moves or whatever. Of course at the same time, somehow they're not actually able to also appreciate Duke Nukem 3D more on Saturn for not using the essentially 2D build engine but Lobotomy's Slavedriver 3D engine instead. Or hate on PlayStation's great 2D like SOTN for using polygons instead of real 2D or whatever. Or hating RE 1-3, FFVII-IX, etc., lol, only Saturn is lame for using 2D with 3D.
​

PS: Quake II on PlayStation ranges between < 15 & > 40 fps and is never locked, it's uncapped as situations vary from looking at walls to encounters. It's hardly stable or consistent but to some (and DF) it's an incredible impossible port as the inconsistent/low fps yet great games on Saturn suck

 

[RetroGamingUK]

AM2 really deserve more credit for how they managed to get Virtua Fighter 2 running so well on that mess of a console, especially after so many were put off by Virtua Fighter 1’s visuals.

It may not have been noticeable on small CRTs at the time but the below 4K videos shows how they did it.

The ring and backgrounds are all rendered using VDP2 (the 2D chip), the backgrounds use multiple 2D layers and the floor uses that mode 7 technique that the SNES used in games like Mario Kart

That means that VDP1 is being used entirely to render the two characters and the 4 verticals edges of the ring. In Saturn the characters render at 480p and the rest at 240p (the video exaggerates this by showing 4K characters).

Last Bronx and Dead or Alive (again, annoyingly stuck in Japan) use the exact same technique. It goes some way to explaining why fighting games often looked so good on the Saturn while the rest of the 3D games looked a bit bleh

 

[simpatico]

As far as games that can still be fully enjoyed today with no reservations?

Saturn has god tier Capcom fighters and a smorgasbord of elite shmups.

N64 has Mario 64 and Goldeneye.

Having this debate is an affront to the art form.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

It depends what you think of those Capcom fighting games.

As soon as I played Virtua Fighter 2 those Capcom fighters instantly became dated in my eyes, they felt like a throwback to the MegaDrive days.

While people were hyping up Marvel vs Street Fighter in 1997 I was instead looking forward to Last Bronx and Dead or Alive instead, the former disappointing gameplay-wise and the latter never getting a release.

 

[Little Mac]

Saturn had some serious bangers … but nothing that reached the highs of Mario 64, Ocarina, or Goldeneye. My vote is for Nintendo.

 

[nkarafo]

AM2 really deserve more credit for how they managed to get Virtua Fighter 2 running so well on that mess of a console, especially after so many were put off by Virtua Fighter 1’s visuals.

It may not have been noticeable on small CRTs at the time but the below 4K videos shows how they did it.

The ring and backgrounds are all rendered using VDP2 (the 2D chip), the backgrounds use multiple 2D layers and the floor uses that mode 7 technique that the SNES used in games like Mario Kart

That means that VDP1 is being used entirely to render the two characters and the 4 verticals edges of the ring. In Saturn the characters render at 480p and the rest at 240p (the video exaggerates this by showing 4K characters).

Last Bronx and Dead or Alive (again, annoyingly stuck in Japan) use the exact same technique. It goes some way to explaining why fighting games often looked so good on the Saturn while the rest of the 3D games looked a bit bleh

Here's a capture of the game from a console instead of emulation (if you are going to use emulation Mednafen/Beetle is more accurate).



It looks and moves great. But the characters also look a bit flat because of the lack of any light sourcing.

IMO Fighting Vipers looks better on the Saturn (even though it doesn't move as graciously), because it has better lighting.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

It looks and moves great. But the characters also look a bit flat because of the lack of any light sourcing.

IMO Fighting Vipers looks better on the Saturn (even though it doesn't move as graciously), because it has better lighting.

I think Tekken 3 might be the only fighting game from that generation that’s “hi-res”, has lighting and doesn’t look blocky.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

Fighting Vipers/Megamix added lighting but paid for it by dropping to 320x240 (as opposed to Virtua Fighter 2’s 640x480 and Tekken 3’s 384x480)

 

[Fluffytheterrible]

If you live in Japan = Saturn
If you live in the west and have a way to play sin and punishment = n64

 

[Majukun]

N64 without a doubt

But I'm biased

 

[DeaconOfTheDank]

Better than FFVII in my opinion. I've definitely been playing a ton more of the Saturn lately after tapping into the Japanese library. Absolutely crushes the rest of the competition when taking that into account.

Of course, Ocarina of Time is the GOAT so there's that... Still, I would give it to the Saturn when all is said and done.

 

[cireza]

Wait what? You count games released on other machines and games that were not released at all?

No I don't. Reading comprehension issues ?

Need for Speed and Road Rush were multiplatform releases that were about the same quality on PS1.

So what ? They count as good racing games on PS1 but not on Saturn ?

This is beyond dumb.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

No I don't. Reading comprehension issues ?

You very clearly did.

“3D adventure was just kicking when Saturn was alive. Unless you are comparing to Playstation games from 1998/1999 which people love to do (but in this case we should look at Dreamcast games, not Saturn. Because these were Dreamcast years for Segafans, Sonic Adventure suddenly counts !”

Odd how you keep bringing up the Japanese games in your counter arguments, yet conveniently leave out the fact that Saturn continued to get new games in Japan up until 2000 when it doesn’t suit your argument.

So which Saturn games released in 1999 were able to keep up with PlayStation’s advancements?

There don’t seem to be any, Saturn’s capabilities seemed to max out with Burning Rangers (along with its frame rate and clipping issues)

 

[YCoCg]

Back then, obviously N64, but now in hindsight I'd lean more towards Saturn.

 

[cireza]

“3D adventure was just kicking when Saturn was alive. Unless you are comparing to Playstation games from 1998/1999 which people love to do (but in this case we should look at Dreamcast games, not Saturn. Because these were Dreamcast years for Segafans, Sonic Adventure suddenly counts !”

Thanks for confirming you have reading issues.

My sentence clearly states that if you are not counting Playstation games from 1998 and beyond, then we are not counting 1998/1999 Dreamcast games.

Word is "Unless" and then "but in this case"

conjunction

1. Except on the condition that; except under the circumstances that.

Hope this helps.

So back to comparing Saturn to PS1 games during years both consoles were active, you will see that full 3D adventure/platform games weren't exactly getting released by hundreds. So how does this make a valid argument for the Saturn not having a lot of these games already ?

Odd how you keep bringing up the Japanese games in your counter arguments, yet conveniently leave out the fact that Saturn continued to get new games in Japan up until 2000 when it doesn’t suit your argument.

Support in 2000 ? Only meaningful games that were released after 1998 are Street Fighter Zero 3 and D&D Collection. Everything else was end of life projects, VNs etc... with little risk/investment. Maybe because Dreamcast was released in 1998 in Japan

So which Saturn games released in 1999 were able to keep up with PlayStation’s advancements?

Street Fighter Zero 3 crushed the PS1 and was released 1999, D&D as well of course. Every other game was moved on the Dreamcast, and people were playing on it. Minor games like Soul Calibur, you know...

 

[RetroGamingUK]

Street Fighter Alpha 3, that’s it?

Looking some of the most advanced 3D games on PlayStation released 1999, where are the Saturn technical equivalents when you remember that the console was still going in Japan…

Metal Gear Solid
Ridge Racer Type 4
Dino Crisis
Wipeout 3
Soul Reaver
Ape Escape
Quake II

 

[cireza]

Street Fighter Alpha 3, that’s it?

Looking some of the most advanced 3D games on PlayStation released 1999, where are the Saturn technical equivalents when you remember that the console was still going in Japan…

Metal Gear Solid
Ridge Racer Type 4
Dino Crisis
Wipeout 3
Soul Reaver
Ape Escape
Quake II

In 1999, the Dreamcast had :
Virtua Fighter 3Tb (1998)
Sonic Adventure (1998)
Evolution
Sega Rally 2
Power Stone
Marvel vs Capcom
House of the Dead 2
Blue Stinger
Dynamite Cop
KoF 99 Dream Match
SFA3
Seaman
Soul Calibur
Time Stalkers
Giga Wings
Chuchu Rocket
Zombie Revenge
Maken X
Virtua Striker 2

As stated, development had switched to Dreamcast back in 1998.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

In 1999, the Dreamcast had :
Virtua Fighter 3Tb (1998)
Sonic Adventure (1998)
Evolution
Sega Rally 2
Power Stone
Marvel vs Capcom
House of the Dead 2
Blue Stinger
Dynamite Cop
KoF 99 Dream Match
SFA3
Seaman
Soul Calibur
Time Stalkers
Giga Wings
Chuchu Rocket
Zombie Revenge
Maken X
Virtua Striker 2

As stated, development had switched to Dreamcast back in 1998.

Reading comprehension issues?

I clearly stated the Saturn.

Speaking of Dreamcast, one of my top 3 consoles of all time! Absolutely love that thing.

Back to the Saturn, when it came to full 3D it was an utter joke of a machine that relied on SNES style Mode 7 to fill in the gaps and fell over every time it tried it tried to do otherwise.

 

[cireza]

Reading comprehension issues?

I clearly stated the Saturn.

Speaking of Dreamcast, one of my top 3 consoles of all time! Absolutely love that thing.

Back to the Saturn, when it came to full 3D it was an utter joke of a machine that relied on SNES style Mode 7 to fill in the gaps and fell over every time it tried it tried to do otherwise.

I think missed this edit, so I will simply to you here :

Your thought process has to be one of the dumbest and most retarded I have seen since I joined. You are basically using a year during which we know a console was abandoned, and had almost no games released, as a way to demonstrate that another console had a better year.

Back to the Saturn, when it came to full 3D it was an utter joke of a machine that relied on SNES style Mode 7 to fill in the gaps and fell over every time it tried it tried to do otherwise.

You have not a single idea what you are talking about. Keep in mind that on this very forum, there are people who develop games on these old consoles and have, you know, some real, factual knowledge about how they work and what they do. Not some kind of ridiculous statements from fanboys that don't have a clue about what they are talking about.

 

[Sorcerer]

While the N64 had some revolutionary bangers, Mario 64, Golden Eye, Ocarina, there just is not enough on the system as a whole. The droughts really hurt. I remember being so excited for the system based on Mario 64, only to find myself defecting to PlayStation very quickly. Seeing all those used PS1 games for as little as 10 bucks compared to 70 bucks was insane. Unfortunately for the Saturn, you had to live in Japan or import like crazy to make the most out of it.
I would choose the Saturn regardless, but it was a great system that was defeated by Sega keeping most of the gold in its home country.

 

[nkarafo]

No I don't. Reading comprehension issues ?

Because i thought we are comparing game libraries on N64 (or PS1) with Saturn games. Sonic Adventure is not a Saturn game. Unreleased/cancelled games surely don't count as games in the library?

Surely it's my bad and i must have missed something.

You have not a single idea what you are talking about. Keep in mind that on this very forum, there are people who develop games on these old consoles and have, you know, some real, factual knowledge about how they work and what they do. Not some kind of ridiculous statements from fanboys that don't have a clue about what they are talking about.

The factual knowledge is that the Saturn was the weaker console of the three when it comes to 3D graphics. It's a comparison game.

 

[cireza]

The factual knowledge is that the Saturn was the weaker console of the three when it comes to 3D graphics. It's a comparison game.

Surely it was. Doesn't mean that it was using a glorified mode 7. VDP2 could do much more than this. Having to explain this is utterly ridiculous.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

Surely it was. Doesn't mean that it was using a glorified mode 7. VDP2 could do much more than this. Having to explain this is utterly ridiculous.

No one’s saying it was, but compared to N64 and PlayStation most of the 3D games that run well relied on flat VDP2 floors.

This was great for the fighting games and the likes of Panzer Zwei. Whenever anything beyond this was attempted (Tomb Raider, Quake, Burning Rangers) the frame rate really suffered.

Still, it’s difficult to fathom how Sega Rally and Daytona CCE run well on that system, the coders behind that engine worked wonders.

 

[nkarafo]

Whenever anything beyond this was attempted (Tomb Raider, Quake, Burning Rangers) the frame rate really suffered.

To be fair, Quake on the Saturn was better than the N64 port. Though the N64 port was a bit smoother and faster, it had a lot of geometry cuts and looked closer to the ugly GL version while the Saturn port looked closer to the software PC version (with the nice dynamic lights) and had less geometry cuts.

Same applies for Duke Nukem 3D. Which is, honestly, even better looking than the PC version (if you play at low res). The SlaveDriver engine Lobotomy made for the Saturn did wonders for the machine. IMO, these were the developers that came closer than anyone else at maxing out the system.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

I’ll quote John Linneman “Quake on Saturn does not run well”, it routinely drops to 10fps (2:22)

The drops to 10fps always occur whenever there’s a 3D polygonal enemy on the screen, something Exhumed and Duke Nukem didn’t have to deal with

 

[cireza]

Still, it’s difficult to fathom how Sega Rally and Daytona CCE run well on that system, the coders behind that engine worked wonders.

And Burning Rangers, and Exhumed, and Duke Nukem etc...

So you are basically recognizing that the console had strengths and weaknesses, you know what these are, yet your are conducting an argument against the console based on its weaknesses ignoring its strengths. Back then consoles were different, these were much better times and more interesting. You can choose whatever full 3D PS1 game as some demonstration that it was better than Saturn, but I can choose whatever VPD2 heavy Saturn game and demonstrate that the PS1 could not do it in the same way.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

PS: Quake II on PlayStation ranges between < 15 & > 40 fps and is never locked, it's uncapped as situations vary from looking at walls to encounters. It's hardly stable or consistent but to some (and DF) it's an incredible impossible port as the inconsistent/low fps yet great games on Saturn suck

Never gets close to the slideshow 10fps that the Saturn version regularly reaches, so that video’s 2 minutes of my life I’m not getting back.

The Saturn version ran like dogshit most of the time and you know it!

 

[Alexios]

Never gets close to the slideshow 10fps that the Saturn version regularly reaches, so that video’s 2 minutes of my life I’m not getting back.

The Saturn version ran like dogshit most of the time and you know it!

There is no Saturn version

Besides, wildly flunctuating between that huge range of fps (~14 is close to 10 btw and that's just the demo playback, not the worst it gets) is pretty shit, like Sega Rally 2 on Dreamcast going from 30 to 60 fps makes it worse than locked 30 fps racers (thankfully there's a cheat to lock it to 30 so yay).


A more steady, if overall lower, framerate is much more preferable (so they should have locked Quake II on PSX to 30 if not lower too, the dips would feel less severe and there'd be no issue with the dips from 40+ to 30 either in that case).

Glad you only found fault with that part of the post so now I've corrected you there's none.

 

[cireza]

The Saturn version ran like dogshit most of the time and you know it!

The Playstation version of the first Quake in 1997 did not ran at all.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

There is no Saturn version

Besides, wildly flunctuating between that huge range of fps (~14 is close to 10 btw) is pretty shit, just like Sega Rally 2 on Dreamcast going from 30 to 60 fps makes it worse than locked 30 fps racers (thankfully there's a cheat to lock it to 30 so yay).

A more steady, if overall lower, framerate is much more preferable (so they should have locked Quake II on PSX to 30 if not lower too, the dips would feel less severe and there'd be no issue with the dips from 40+ to 30 either in that case).

Glad you only found fault with that part of the post so now I've corrected you there's none.

Well aware of those points.

Look, I’m not some Digital Foundry snob, fluctuating frame rates don’t bother me, they didn’t bother me on PS Quake Two and they didn’t bother me on Sega Rally 2.

But anyone who isn’t a total fanboy will agree that 10fps is UNACCEPTABLE.

 

[Spukc]

N64
Had some fucking bangers.

Any 3d game on the saturn had shit on n64

 

[RetroGamingUK]

Tomb Raider, another big game on Saturn where the frame rate is just an acceptable in big open areas with enemies.

I read in CVG that more development time would have been needed to get Tomb Raider II running on Saturn, though I’m guessing it wouldn’t have worked at all without a redesign using VDP2 for the flat floors. There’s much bigger areas in that game that take place outdoors in well lit areas, I doubt Core would be able to hide Saturn’s pop in with darkness second time around

 

[bundylove]

The n64 was by far nintendos best console ever.
But i couldnt handle this god awful controller that i didnt know how the fuck to hold best so i dont get cramps.

Saturn when i came out had some grrat titles. Daytona with a steering wheel was the bomb.
Lots of arcade ports and lots of support.

They were both great in their own way.
They were both destroyed by playstaion.

N64 biggesr issue was the low meg cartridges. Nintendo lost ff7 to sony cuz of this. And others followed them. Then the cost of games was a big factor as well as pirateted games for ps and saturn made developers pull out of the n64 .

 

[Parazels]

I’ll quote John Linneman “Quake on Saturn does not run well”, it routinely drops to 10fps (2:22)

The drops to 10fps always occur whenever there’s a 3D polygonal enemy on the screen, something Exhumed and Duke Nukem didn’t have to deal with

Only the dogshit like Perfect Dark is allowed to run at 10 fps!
(Do not be surprised, I really hate this fake "masterpiece" !)

 

[RetroGamingUK]

Only the dogshit like Perfect Dark is allowed to run at 10 fps!
(Do not be surprised, I really hate this fake "masterpiece" !)

Yeah it’s a shame because there’s a bloody good game under there but the frame rate was just horrific at times.

 

[Parazels]

I

Yeah it’s a shame because there’s a bloody good game under there but the frame rate was just horrific.

I played Perfect Dark 1 at 60 fps on Xbox and hated every single level. I didn't enjoy the game at all.
I gave it up in the middle of the final level, my patience ran up.

 

[SirTerry-T]

The problem with Saturn was that outside of fighting games there wasn’t much quality in other genres compared to PlayStation. Yes you’d get the odd gem, but outside the top 10 games that get repeatedly listed it wasn’t great (unless you imported games from Japan)

3D adventure - after Tomb Raider there’s little else that was great (there was a late port of Resi 1)

3D platformers - you’re spoilt for choice on PS/N64, on Saturn you basically had Croc (Burning Rangers might fit this category)

Driving - Sega Rally was and still is great, outside of that though it’s largely bad arcade ports with abysmal frame rates

RPG - outside of Panzer Saga and Shining Force III little to write home about (Japan got Grandia)

Sports - outside of Athlete Kings there’s little of quality, bad EA ports and no ISS/PES

Sega Worldwide Soccer was one of the best footie games of that generation.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

Sega Worldwide Soccer was one of the best footie games of that generation.

It had impressive animations (including tricks) when released and I ended up buying it myself. Wasn’t a good football game though, passing was awful.

For the 5th generation I’d say only the following are still good to play…

ISS Pro/PES series
ISS series (N64)
FIFA series (98 onwards)
This is Football series

The rest have aged badly, but it was an interesting generation with seemingly every publisher releasing an attempt. The Actua Soccer series seemed to be well regarded at the time, again they’ve aged terribly.

 

[SirTerry-T]

Respectfully disagree.
Anyway,only one of that gen had Radiant Silvergun.

Saturn wins.

 

[Parazels]

It had impressive animations (including tricks) when released and I ended up buying it myself. Wasn’t a good football game though, passing was awful.

For the 5th generation I’d say only the following are still good to play…

ISS Pro/PES series
ISS series (N64)
FIFA series (98 onwards)
This is Football series

The rest have aged badly, but it was an interesting generation with seemingly every publisher releasing an attempt. The Actua Soccer series seemed to be well regarded at the time, again they’ve aged terribly.

ISS was great.
FIFA was ok, until I found out ISS
This is football had great visuals, but only one way to score a goal

 

[dsp]

Super Mario 64 wins for me every time. Though I do see that Saturn has SoTN available for it so that's cool. Nothing is gonna beat the countless memories of my friends and I getting stoned and playing Goldeneye. I also adore Star Fox 64. I played the 64 a lot, with only the PS3 beating it in playtime, I imagine. Wave Race 64, San Francisco Rush, 1080 Snowboarding, Star Wars: Shadows of the Empire, Mortal Kombat Trilogy, Turok, Perfect Dark, etc. Had a lot of fun playing that system. Mostly everyone I knew had a 64 too so we'd all swap games. I'm sure we would have had a blast if we all had Saturns at the time. Don't know why no one I knew had a Saturn. I never even had an SNES, had the Genesis (including Sega Channel like a real boss).

 

[Evil Calvin]

N64 had like one true RPG. Had a few revolutionary games like Mario 64 and Ocarina of Time...but the rest was ....'meh'. Also most were a frame rate shit show and a blurry mess. Rogue Squadron was good, but like Mario 64 and Ocarina ...they do not hold up well now at all. Saturn had it's own issues with trying to do any 3D games. But there were some great games like Panzer Dragoon Saga, Saturn Bomberman, Astal, Guardian Heroes, Mr Bones, Quake, Nights, Radiant Silvergun, Dark Savior, Magic Knoght Rayearth, Panzer Dragoon..... Both systems had a few great games but both had major issues and most games for these do NOT hold up well. Saturn games hold up better as they mostly were 2D,

 

[Buggy Loop]

N64

My Saturn experience was short because the price was just insanity in Canada. But even revisiting it later in life it was "ok".

Mario 64, Zelda Oot & MM, Wave Race 64, F-Zero X, Goldeneye 007, Star Fox 64 (the last good one), 1080 snowboarding, Mario Kart 64, Super smash bros, Paper Mario, Perfect Dark, Sin & Punishment, Conker, Rogue Squadron, Doom 64, Banjo-Kazooie

Like the literal definition of my teenage years. Me and my friends would spend senseless amounts of time in Goldeneye or smash bros. I must have complete Star Fox also like a hundred times.

 

[ForAcademicPurposes]

N64 left a legacy.

 

[Sojiro]

Not voting since I don't have enough Saturn exposure to comment (I do plan on picking a Saturn up sometime in the near future, with a satiator). I think N64 has the more revolutionary games (between Mario 64 and OoT), and it's the better multiplayer machine, but looking into the Saturn's full library (especially all those JP games that never left Japan) I would probably have to side with Saturn on this one. This whole generation is just awesome though between the three.

 

[Warnen]

Saturn easy the 2 d games still look great today, nothing on the n64 holds up.

 

[S0ULZB0URNE]

saturn neck beads are mad lol. not my fault saturn is a failure with no games.

Saturn had plenty of games.

 

[Daniel Thomas MacInnes]

The obvious answer is: Both.

Nintendo 64 and Sega Saturn are different enough that their software libraries compliment one another with few overlaps. If you want 3D platformers/adventures like Super Mario 64, Rayman 2, Shadowman or Zelda Ocarina, you'll choose Nintendo. If you want 2D brilliance and fast-paced arcade games, both 2D and 3D, you'll choose Sega.

It's like having two food shops on the same block, one sells tacos, the other sells pizzas. Whichever you prefer that day comes down to what you're hungry for. Personally, I find that to be the best of all possible worlds. My favorite games consoles excel at one or two specific areas, standing apart from the rest.

 

[Alexios]

Tomb Raider, another big game on Saturn where the frame rate is just an acceptable in big open areas with enemies.

I read in CVG that more development time would have been needed to get Tomb Raider II running on Saturn, though I’m guessing it wouldn’t have worked at all without a redesign using VDP2 for the flat floors. There’s much bigger areas in that game that take place outdoors in well lit areas, I doubt Core would be able to hide Saturn’s pop in with darkness second time around

Yeah, 10 fps dips are "an acceptable" (how much are you frothing to type like this while pretending it's the other guys who are the fanboys) but 14 to 40+ is just fine and dandy because 14 is apparently so damn far from 10, give me a break & cope. I don't think you wanna call out Saturn hiding its pop in with darkness in Tomb Raider of all games, lol. I'm thinking you haven't even played any of the games you are trying to discuss here (so of course you don't deem any you haven't played as classics, no shit), just google search for hot takes. Saturn is at the top & PS at the bottom here, cope:

For all we know it'd run similarly on Saturn had it been "optimized" the same as the PS version's way lower draw distance (and missing water distortions).

Also whaaat the Gran Turismos aren't locked 30fps racers, who would have thought that, it's only Saturn racers that suck if they have dips, the Gran Turismos are shiny, as is MGS which crawls when FPV/OTS/not the impressive top-down pac-man cam.

Of course nobody bashes the low framerates and untextured polygons of the combat sequences in the PS killer app that is FFVII either, because such things don't matter, naturally people who like that aren't gonna harp about some dips in PDS, right?

Glad you still haven't found fault with my post riddled with ace 3D and 2D (that don't need the RAM cart) games on Saturn you partially quoted/skipped, that means it was spot on and there's nothing to argue against, thanks for the seal of approval.