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[leroidys]

The Wii U is such a cluster-cuss. First, the novelty of the controller is nowhere near as compelling as the motion controls of its predecessor because well, everything has had a touch screen in the last few years, so it is not novel at all and therefore would have never gained anyone's interest anyway.

It was far too expensive. People see Nintendo devices as cheap toys.

No goddamn games.

Nintendo cannot create any kind of traditional console. Wii U is too close to a traditional console experience. They should have learned with the Gamecube that no one wants a console from them. Though people value novelty, which allowed Wii to skyrocket. After Kinect refined motion controls (eliminating the barrier of having to use a controller, for good or ill), motion controls are no longer a novelty. Touch controls are already old.

I don't see anything under the sun which will kindle interest in a Nintendo console ever again, apart from an incredibly cheap device. All the major novelties have already been developed. VR is too awkward to experience.

Wii U is dead, we can put a fork in it. Anything else they come out with will see similar sales. Wii sold to casuals, they are in the mobile space now. Anything targeting casuals will be competing with tablets and phones without actually being a tablet or phone. Its like going into a gun fight with a knife.

I don't understand how they didn't get the novelty part. The Wii worked because they could do these kinda crappy motion controls for really cheap, and it was something nobody had done before. Case in point, PS Move was far, far superior at tracking 3D movement than even WR+, and failed to garner any real attention.

The U-pad is just a crappy tablet, well after they have become ubiquitous. Calling it a "tablet controller" even is overselling it... it's just half of a DS with abysmal battery life and range. I don't understand why they thought this would succeed were GBA-GC connectivity failed.

 

[monome]

In my humble opinion, their biggest failure out of the gate was not effectively communicating why people need the gamepad and how it enhances the way you play those games you want.

Off-TV is pretty self-explenatory.

NintendoLand may be no Wii Sports, but it did the job of showing several Gamepads enhanced game scenarios.

WiiU lacked marketing appeal to the 20/30 years old demographic.

WiiU lacked financial appeal to the children demographic. I appeared too costly to parents when compared to multi-purposes tablets by Google/Apple.

Since the grown-ups did not want a WiiU, the kids simply stayed on their parents' tablets rather than lust after the status symbol of playing with the big boys, whereas had the WiiU been big with grown-ups, many tantrums would have happened and many parents would have bought a WiiU in order to restore peace to the family dinners.

The other big contributing factor is how Nintendo can manage releasing products in Japan and oustide it. They clearly missed an opportunity by not differentiating either the features or the look. After Wii's success, I concede some executives at Nintendo probably suffered of hubris...and pressure from shareholders to compete globally with a 100% in-house entertainment product.

Mii Plaza is nice. It's not worth a global unified online account.

Whatever is said on WiiU, the truth is it is a very shivering cold shower for Nintendo.
Xbox is well implanted.
Sony is not willing to give up.
and the tech giants are aligning their pawns towards the conquest of an expanded entertainment landscape.

I believe a short term solution would be to release a retro line of home/portable consoles, at attractive prices, direcltly bought from Nintendo, combined with a mix of VC and upgraded games. both new consoles being slight hardware revisions to the current 3DS/WiiU as to maintain potential sales for those systems, and with a proper amount of paint over the OS. then recut 3DS/WiiU prices to make them easier to pick up at big retailers, hoping for parents shopping for food/etc...might get fond memories of their Wii moments when passing by.

 

[AzaK]

In my humble opinion, their biggest failure out of the gate was not effectively communicating why people need the gamepad and how it enhances the way you play those games you want. I don't even seriously question their decision to go with it, as much as I do their lack of preparedness to effectively create demand for it. MS really set the best example with how they brought Kinect to market the first time and how they manufactured demand for a complete unknown, disruptive device. The GP should have been easier given user data on touch pad behavior.

There's been a lot of other major issues, but to me that was a big marketing failure and they haven't recovered yet. It's a good device that no one wants, and no pricing or mixed messaging is going to get people to buy something they simply do not understand and desire.

I'm not sure they could have sold it. It's a novel device but not compelling enough to override the power of the PS3/360's games nor the PS4 and XBO's freshness and tech. There are very very few games that really show how the gamepad adds significantly to the experience and there's vey little else interesting about the machine. The online is just like what we've had for years. The OS is very Wii like and simple. The core tech is just a small notch more than 8 year old machines and we've yet to see anything superb.

If we forget us gamers and think of the casual crowd maybe they should have made it more like a tablet (higher res, capacitive, slim) and marketed the tablet nature of the device as a two part machine coupled with the console. Shown Facebook, Twitter, and fucking angry birds on it. Show them doing all the tablet things that people want and then juxtapose that with core games being played on the tv and separately on the gamepad.

Maybe that sort of thing might have worked but I think the specs and for factor of the gamepad would have had to be different.

 

[Log4Girlz]

I'm not sure they could have sold it. It's a novel device but not compelling enough to override the power of the PS3/360's games nor the PS4 and XBO's freshness and tech. There are very very few games that really show how the gamepad adds significantly to the experience and there's vey little else interesting about the machine. The online is just like what we've had for years. The OS is very Wii like and simple. The core tech is just a small notch more than 8 year old machines and we've yet to see anything superb.

If we forget us gamers and think of the casual crowd maybe they should have made it more like a tablet (higher res, capacitive, slim) and marketed the tablet nature of the device as a two part machine coupled with the console. Shown Facebook, Twitter, and fucking angry birds on it. Show them doing all the tablet things that people want and then juxtapose that with core games being played on the tv and separately on the gamepad.

Maybe that sort of thing might have worked but I think the specs and for factor of the gamepad would have had to be different.

Gamepad should have been a tablet, with all electronics contained in the unit and a small fan (like the surface pro). It would have to take a knock on power and be only slightly more powerful than Wii. But that could have been interesting. Now, that would have been very similar to their handheld, but if it could beam video to the TV, wirelessly communicate with controllers etc, and be sold for cheap, that would have been something.

 

[E-phonk]

If we forget us gamers and think of the casual crowd maybe they should have made it more like a tablet (higher res, capacitive, slim) and marketed the tablet nature of the device as a two part machine coupled with the console. Shown Facebook, Twitter, and fucking angry birds on it. Show them doing all the tablet things that people want and then juxtapose that with core games being played on the tv and separately on the gamepad.

They definitely did a lot less tablet-y stuff with it than i was expecting.
It should have been able to run:
- facebook/twitter/instagram for teenagers
- casual games like angrybirds, candy crush, chess, touch tetris, bejeweled, ...
- email client, some cooking software (just convert the DS one to wii U) and other utility software that they allready made for DS
- all of the touch series from nintendo DS should have been on this, and all of the software they made for Wii. The weather channel, that little quiz thing, brain training, even nintendogs etc..

As it is, it's a console with tablet without any real software that makes a tablet interesting for the masses.

 

[monome]

Gamepad should have been a tablet, with all electronics contained in the unit and a small fan (like the surface pro). It would have to take a knock on power and be only slightly more powerful than Wii. But that could have been interesting. Now, that would have been very similar to their handheld, but if it could beam video to the TV, wirelessly communicate with controllers etc, and be sold for cheap, that would have been something.

No.

after Wii, Nintendo knew they had no choice but to bring their games in HD.
Tablet only scenario would have been nightmarish tech-wise. Existing chips were not there yet for your scenario.

 

[Log4Girlz]

No.

after Wii, Nintendo knew they had no choice but to bring their games in HD.
Tablet only scenario would have been nightmarish tech-wise. Existing chips were not there yet for your scenario.

Again, it could not be the same tech inside the Wii. It would need to be closer to actual tablet chips. But really the point is moot, they didn't go that route and instead released this thermonuclear bomb of a console.

 

[Griss]

I believe a short term solution would be to release a retro line of home/portable consoles, at attractive prices, direcltly bought from Nintendo, combined with a mix of VC and upgraded games. both new consoles being slight hardware revisions to the current 3DS/WiiU as to maintain potential sales for those systems, and with a proper amount of paint over the OS. then recut 3DS/WiiU prices to make them easier to pick up at big retailers, hoping for parents shopping for food/etc...might get fond memories of their Wii moments when passing by.

I've been saying this for a couple of months now, but I was talking about it as their next console a couple of years off. With recent news, something like this needs to be accelerated if they are to avoid both 2014 and 2015 being loss-making years, which would be 5 in a row. Frankly I'm not sure they can avoid losses in those years without a new hardware release of some kind or a foray into mobile.

I really think you could sell WiiU hardware to the masses as a VC box, you'd just need a total rebrand to remove the stench of a failed product and an old fad and also a totally different price point for both the hardware and software. They did a similar thing with the Gamecube, after all.

As ever, though, I believe Nintendo's time as a serious home console maker is probably up. Whether they go third party for their AAA titles or move out of that space entirely is something I can't predict.

The fact that 3DS games are now full 'console-like' experiences makes me wonder if we might see a repositioning of their output like so:
Before: Home consoles have the premium, full-fat experiences, handhelds have the cheaper, simpler experiences
Now: Both home consoles and handhelds have deep, expensive to create full-fat experiences
Future: Handheld has the full-fat, AAA games, while mobile receives the simple, cheap experiences

I still believe there's a market for dedicated handhelds (edit: but only one). It's just a lot smaller than it used to be, and more price sensitive than ever before.

 

[monome]

Again, it could not be the same tech inside the Wii. It would need to be closer to actual tablet chips. But really the point is moot, they didn't go that route and instead released this thermonuclear bomb of a console.

their biggest pb is they made a home console DS and fucked it badly by not even having the successful 3rd party IPs on DS appear.

there ought to be a Layton game on WiiU already.

 

[Griss]

They definitely did a lot less tablet-y stuff with it than i was expecting.
It should have been able to run:
- facebook/twitter/instagram for teenagers
- casual games like angrybirds, candy crush, chess, touch tetris, bejeweled, ...
- email client, some cooking software (just convert the DS one to wii U) and other utility software that they allready made for DS
- all of the touch series from nintendo DS should have been on this, and all of the software they made for Wii. The weather channel, that little quiz thing, brain training, even nintendogs etc..

As it is, it's a console with tablet without any real software that makes a tablet interesting for the masses.

I genuinely believe that the entire problem was that they never saw the gamepad as a tablet, and didn't anticipate that the market would view it as such, and judge it wanting.

They started out to design a controller, and thought the screen made it better, and unique - following on from their supremely successful DS dual screen design. This mode of thinking gave us the tablet like gamepad, but I don't think they ever realised that they were swimming into that red ocean.
Nintendo - 'We made the best classic controller ever! Like a better DS!'
Market - 'You're selling the shittiest tablet ever. Like a shitty iPad/Kindle Fire.'

I just don't think they saw it that way, and that was part of the problem.

 

[Log4Girlz]

I've been saying this for a couple of months now, but I was talking about it as their next console a couple of years off. With recent news, something like this needs to be accelerated if they are to avoid both 2014 and 2015 being loss-making years, which would be 5 in a row. Frankly I'm not sure they can avoid losses in those years without a new hardware release of some kind or a foray into mobile.

I really think you could sell WiiU hardware to the masses as a VC box, you'd just need a total rebrand to remove the stench of a failed product and an old fad and also a totally different price point for both the hardware and software. They did a similar thing with the Gamecube, after all.

As ever, though, I believe Nintendo's time as a serious home console maker is probably up. Whether they go third party for their AAA titles or move out of that space entirely is something I can't predict.

The fact that 3DS games are now full 'console-like' experiences makes me wonder if we might see a repositioning of their output like so:
Before: Home consoles have the premium, full-fat experiences, handhelds have the cheaper, simpler experiences
Now: Both home consoles and handhelds have deep, expensive to create full-fat experiences
Future: Handheld has the full-fat, AAA games, while mobile receives the simple, cheap experiences

I still believe there's a market for dedicated handhelds (edit: but only one). It's just a lot smaller than it used to be, and more price sensitive than ever before.

I'm always on the fence with this but, perhaps its not over yet. I think they just need to release a very cheap, OUYA like device which shares tech with their handheld and play its games along with its own (to prevent droughts). Make profits off unique controllers and innovative F2P titles.

They could also make a gaming tablet, if done right they have a chance. I mean, they're already competing almost directly with them. May as well join in. It is crucial that any controller inputs can be hidden away quickly to look as slick as any tablet and they would need full android, which requires support for play store, but they could have eshop be exclusive to their hardware. That option of course has many difficulties, but hey, its either figure it out or gtfo of hardware.

 

[Mpl90]

The only thing they can do now with Wii U is to complete development and release all the big content announced / not announced yet for 2014 (and 2015 - like Zelda, probably), try to give the console as much value as possible with continuous bundles (if they release FTP games, they should put as many of them as possible in these bundles), and then start lowering sensibly the amount of support in 2015. Which doesn't mean "killing the console", which would mean seriously damaging consumers' trust in the company for the next future, but just let it go, with titles of less and less relevance, and then being ready for next handheld (Fall 2015 / Q1 2016) and next console launch, in Fall 2016 / Q1 2017. With next console being an extension of the handheld, but quite more powerful (like 2x-3x RAM). If both sell very well, then go with the "Nintendo family" plan detailed by wsippel, by releasing the entry-level handheld and the tablet-like, and then...who knows.

 

[E-phonk]

Also, learning from Sony and MS - it wouldn't hurt for their next console to have a lot of "definitive version ports" from Wii U to fill their launch window. Even HD'ify some Wii titles.
Have wii sports club/wii fit pre-installed on launch, etc...

They can't have a drought anymore they need new firstparty software every month in it's first year, just like they did with Wii.

 

[Griss]

I'm always on the fence with this but, perhaps its not over yet. I think they just need to release a very cheap, OUYA like device which shares tech with their handheld and play its games along with its own (to prevent droughts). Make profits off unique controllers and innovative F2P titles.

They could also make a gaming tablet, if done right they have a chance. I mean, they're already competing almost directly with them. May as well join in. It is crucial that any controller inputs can be hidden away quickly to look as slick as any tablet and they would need full android, which requires support for play store, but they could have eshop be exclusive to their hardware. That option of course has many difficulties, but hey, its either figure it out or gtfo of hardware.

Your comment reminds me how much Nintendo loves peripherals. From the Wii Fit board to the Fit Meter to the various 'zappers' and 'wii wheels' etc. If they were to go third party in the home console space they'd still need a hardware department for their handhelds and for all of their peripherals. I don't think it would gut their staff half as much as some people believe. Agree on the cheap home hardware though. If they have anywhere left to go, it's there.

The only thing they can do now with Wii U is to complete development and release all the big content announced / not announced yet for 2014 (and 2015 - like Zelda, probably), try to give the console as much value as possible with continuous bundles (if they release FTP games, they should put as many of them as possible in these bundles), and then start lowering sensibly the amount of support in 2015. Which doesn't mean "killing the console", which would mean seriously damaging consumers' trust in the company for the next future, but just let it go, with titles of less and less relevance, and then being ready for next handheld (Fall 2015 / Q1 2016) and next console launch, in Fall 2016 / Q1 2017. With next console being an extension of the handheld, but quite more powerful (like 2x-3x RAM). If both sell very well, then go with the "Nintendo family" plan detailed by wsippel, by releasing the entry-level handheld and the tablet-like, and then...who knows.

I've had a huge issue with their Zelda release planning for a while now, and releasing Zelda U on a dead platform will only make it worse. Skyward Sword arrived far too late for the Wii, and so late that the Wii U had no chance of a Zelda in its first year. Zelda U could have changed the tenor of the conversation around the machine at e3 2012. It couldn't have hurt. If we end up getting Wii U Zelda in 2015, that means that whatever hardware Nintendo do next, Zelda Team will be nowhere near ready to release anything to help it launch.

It's such a heavy hitter that I feel like they HAVE to find a way to get it back on a better schedule. I really believe that Twilight Princess sold a lot of Wii Us to a lot of hardcore gamers, and convinced the Nintendo diehards that it was still a machine for them. Maybe a lot of these people ended up disgusted with the machine in time (not me, but I know many who were), but it did the trick at launch. They need that kind of star power for whatever they do next.

 

[jpax]

Has anybody seen this?

http://www.nintendonews.com/2014/01/nintendo-fusion-could-be-nintendos-next-gen-hardware-name/

It sounds really silly

 

[QaaQer]

In my humble opinion, their biggest failure out of the gate was not effectively communicating why people need the gamepad and how it enhances the way you play those games you want. I don't even seriously question their decision to go with it, as much as I do their lack of preparedness to effectively create demand for it. MS really set the best example with how they brought Kinect to market the first time and how they manufactured demand for a complete unknown, disruptive device. The GP should have been easier given user data on touch pad behavior.

There's been a lot of other major issues, but to me that was a big marketing failure and they haven't recovered yet. It's a good device that no one wants, and no pricing or mixed messaging is going to get people to buy something they simply do not understand and desire.

The only thing that could have made the tablet compelling is if more than one could be used at the same. Then you could have had some really great game ideas with local multiplayer and a fantastic selling point. But of course you bump up against cost.

 

[ekim]

Has anybody seen this?

http://www.nintendonews.com/2014/01/nintendo-fusion-could-be-nintendos-next-gen-hardware-name/

I sounds really silly

GPGPU: Custom Radeon HD RX 200 GPU CODENAME LADY (2816 shaders @ 960 MHz, 4.60 TFLOP/s, Fillrates: 60.6 Gpixel/s, 170 Gtexel/s)
CPU: IBM 64-Bit Custom POWER 8-Based IBM 8-Core Processor CODENAME JUMPMAN (2.2 GHz, Shared 6 MB L4 cache)
Co-CPU: IBM PowerPC 750-based 1.24 GHz Tri-Core Co-Processor CODENAME HAMMER
MEMORY: 4 Gigabytes of Unified DDR4 SDRAM CODENAMED KONG, 2 GB DDR3 RAM @ 1600 MHz (12.8 GB/s) On Die CODENAMED BARREL
802.11 b/g/n Wireless
Bluetooth v4.0 BLE
2 USB 3.0
1 Coaxial Cable Input
1 CableCARD Slot
4 Custom Stream-Interface Nodes up to 4 Wii U GamePads
Versions with Disk Drive play Wii U Optical Disk (4 Layers Maximum), FUSION Holographic Versatile Disc (HVD) and Nintendo 3DS Card Slot
1 HDMI 2.0 1080p/4K Port
Dolby TrueHD 5.1 or 7.1 Surround Sound
Inductive Charging Surface for up to 4 FUSION DS or IC-Wii Remote Plus Controllers
Two versions: Disk Slot Version with 60 Gigs of Internal Flash Storage and Diskless Version with 300 Gigs of Internal Flash Storage

Sure...

I love these

 

[QaaQer]

Sure...

I love these

haha, a console with 11 cpu cores.

 

[Log4Girlz]

Sure...

I love these

I love fake specs, they are so bad. Remember what the Revolution was supposed to be before it was revealed to be just an upclocked gamecube?

 

[ekim]

Codenamed RAM really gives it away.

 

[jpax]

Sure...

I love these

I know! 4GB DDR4 and 2GB DDR3... Not sure if troll or desperate fan

 

[spekkeh]

The Wii U is such a cluster-cuss. First, the novelty of the controller is nowhere near as compelling as the motion controls of its predecessor because well, everything has had a touch screen in the last few years, so it is not novel at all and therefore would have never gained anyone's interest anyway.

I still think Nintendo should market the damn Miiverse more, but take it outside of games. Everyone has tablets, yes, but they're not very good for drawing. Not a lot of people have Wacom tablets, though most would find it cool. uDraw was pretty big for a short time, selling to casuals, but lacked the clout and couldn't be sold to the gamer public. Sitting on the couch, drawing, sharing your work with friends, adding in games based on your drawings. It has untapped potential way past the 'look it's kind of like a low grade tablet'.

 

[Log4Girlz]

I know! 4GB DDR4 and 2GB DDR3... Not sure if troll or desperate fan

Its funny how most fans want something technologically competitive, while Nintendo has given up that race. Its not like they're going to suddenly realize "Hey, the money is with hardcore gamers!", no, they'll see their biggest success, the Wii, which captured casuals with withered technology, and try to replicate its success.

I still think Nintendo should market the damn Miiverse more, but take it outside of games. Everyone has tablets, yes, but they're not very good for drawing. Not a lot of people have Wacom tablets, though most would find it cool. uDraw was pretty big for a short time, selling to casuals, but lacked the clout and couldn't be sold to the gamer public. Sitting on the couch, drawing, sharing your work with friends, adding in games based on your drawings. It has untapped potential way past the 'look it's kind of like a low grade tablet'.

Marketing the system or any of its features is throwing good money into a pit for no reason.

 

[Griss]

I love fake specs, they are so bad. Remember what the Revolution was supposed to be before it was revealed to be just an upclocked gamecube?

It always makes me sad how many people believe such things for no reason other than they WANT to believe...

I wasn't a member during the WUST days, but I lurked for years. And those WUST threads... they were ridiculous. It took quite a while post-reveal for a lot of people from those threads to accept the reality of what Nintendo had made compared to what they wanted them to have made.

 

[spekkeh]

Marketing the system or any of its features is throwing good money into a pit for no reason.

I don't agree. The Wii U is dead, yes, but if they can get the userbase up to 10 million or a little above, then at least their big games could be profitable, which means they won't have to close down developers and fire off all their good staff.

 

[Griss]

I still think Nintendo should market the damn Miiverse more, but take it outside of games. Everyone has tablets, yes, but they're not very good for drawing. Not a lot of people have Wacom tablets, though most would find it cool. uDraw was pretty big for a short time, selling to casuals, but lacked the clout and couldn't be sold to the gamer public. Sitting on the couch, drawing, sharing your work with friends, adding in games based on your drawings. It has untapped potential way past the 'look it's kind of like a low grade tablet'.

I don't think drawing is a big pull for most people. Most people are simply too crap at it, and it makes us feel bad. I can barely manage a stick-man. Always felt like shit in art classes at school. For those who do like art, the Miiverse posting box is far too small.

Nintendo realises this, which is why they added stamps, so that non-art people could join in the visual fun. But that created the issue where there's just 'stamp-spam', which isn't good either. On top of that, the whole thing is very slow, requiring about 5 more 'clicks' than necessary to ever post anything. Outside of its implementation in games, which I love, I don't think Miiverse is great, and it's certainly not a feature that will sell hardware to anyone.

 

[Taker666]

I know most of you are speaking from a financial point of view but ugh, this sounds awful. All this screw the customers for more profits.

but it's what the others do..so why not?

As I said..most people just see the initial price tag and ignore the rest. They see the Wii U as $299 the PS4 as $399, the Xbone as $499...and that's it. They ignore the extra $180 dollars for not being able to use last gens controllers, they ignore the $300-$360 online fee for the generation, they ignore the the lack of backwards compatibility.

That's an extra $500(ish) dollars for the other machines in their lifetime that everyone is accepting/ignoring...and Nintendo is missing out on.

It's not the direction I want the industry to go in... but pretty much everyone else has happily accepted it...so Nintendo might as well join the party so they can keep that initial RRP down.

 

[Cheerilee]

I love fake specs, they are so bad. Remember what the Revolution was supposed to be before it was revealed to be just an upclocked gamecube?

What on Earth could that light mean?

 

[shinra-bansho]

Not a lot of people have Wacom tablets because not a lot of people want or need Wacom tablets. And if people still wanted to Draw Something, then OMGPop wouldn't have been shuttered.

 

[Log4Girlz]

It always makes me sad how many people believe such things for no reason other than they WANT to believe...

I wasn't a member during the WUST days, but I lurked for years. And those WUST threads... they were ridiculous. It took quite a while post-reveal for a lot of people from those threads to accept the reality of what Nintendo had made compared to what they wanted them to have made.

Man, its amazing how much hype there was from fans, but Nintendo did everything in their power to present the system in the most boring manner possible. They killed all hype. I for one was hoping of something closer to 1 terraflop, which is a pittance nowadays. Anything below 600 gflops was unimaginable. When will we ever learn lol.

 

[Azure J]

Man, its amazing how much hype there was from fans, but Nintendo did everything in their power to present the system in the most boring manner possible. They killed all hype. I for one was hoping of something closer to 1 terraflop, which is a pittance nowadays. Anything below 600 gflops was unimaginable. When will we ever learn lol.

Man, I loved the WUST era of GAF, but when those cold hard numbers started showing up. Even worse when PS4 pulled the coup of the decade with the 8GB GDDR5 deal coupled with the specs that we knew about.

Nintendo really didn't need to do much to make Wii U (or more precisely, their offering for this gen) radically more appealing. (Never forget AMD quad core + 640SP/8CU + 2 - 4GB GDDR5 + Better Wiimote) Now, it's just a whole mess that has the majority of people thinking they just can't be a part of the console market anymore.

 

[Log4Girlz]

Man, I loved the WUST era of GAF, but when those cold hard numbers started showing up. Even worse when PS4 pulled the coup of the decade with the 8GB GDDR5 deal coupled with the specs that we knew about.

Nintendo really didn't need to do much to make Wii U (or more precisely, their offering for this gen) radically more appealing. (Never forget AMD quad core + 640SP/8CU + 2 - 4GB GDDR5 + Better Wiimote) Now, it's just a whole mess that has the majority of people thinking they just can't be a part of the console market anymore.

In terms of the console market, they have been left in the cold. They have no idea how to compete. They've had one resounding success with the NES prior to the Wii, all other systems have been on a downward spiral of sales. Wii U is no surprise. And I expect that unless they do something drastic, their next console will not outperform it.

 

[Mondy]

Has anybody seen this?

http://www.nintendonews.com/2014/01/nintendo-fusion-could-be-nintendos-next-gen-hardware-name/

It sounds really silly

Typical modern journalism; they're all going off the single report which is utter bullshit to begin with.

Nintendo doesn't know what a teroflop is.

 

[Brickhunt]

Many pointed out the lack 3rd party game, but one thing I was also worried was the 1st party line for the Wii U. I think the success of Mario and Donkey Kong may have blinded both Nintendo and fans on how much power these franchise actually have to compel consumers to buy console.

The Wii was launched with two flagship titles: WiiSports (For casuals) and Twilight Princess (for core gamers). I think people also focused too much on WiiSports and overlook the importance of TP on the strength of the Wii's launch. It allowed the console to reach both the casual audience and the traditional gamer audience.

Besides TP at the launch, we already knew that Mario Galaxy and Metroid Prime 3: Corruption would be launched at 2007. By the time of E3 2007, we had a confirmation of Super Smash Bros releasing at the end of the year (eventually delayed) and Mario Kart for 2008. Not to mention that WiiFit also ensured a momentum for casual gamers.

Basically, even if you bought a Wii in the drought between the launch window and SMG release, there was at least a promise of very high quality games coming in "short" time, a momentum that was maintained by the E3 2007.

With the Wii U, both the core and casual line-up for the launch were extremely bland. By the time the Wii launched, we only knew of Wonderful 101 and Bayonetta coming in 2013 (Bayonetta eventually delayed to 2014), a Super Smash Bros U that everyone already knew it wouldn't come 2013. There was no promise of games in the same level of SMG and MP3 coming soon. The 2013 Wii U's momentum was dreadful, and Nintendo Directs were a horrible replacement for live-streamed conferences, they sucked at maintaining momentum.

I think Nintendo should had been less secretive about the 1st games in development and started teasing up Donkey Kong, 3D Mario and Mario Kart already in 2012. Give potential consumer a sense that good stuff is coming up both in short and long term.

Not to say that a more diverse line would also had helped a lot. People underestimate the value of "smaller" IPs, like F-Zero, Metroid e Star Fox could had to attract consumers. Even if you don't believe these games will sell, as a conjunct, they do give the impression of a healthy environment for games.

 

[antronoid]

Sure...

I love these

Hah, I think Nintendo would be the last company I would trust with a diskless console.

 

[MadOdorMachine]

Man, I loved the WUST era of GAF, but when those cold hard numbers started showing up. Even worse when PS4 pulled the coup of the decade with the 8GB GDDR5 deal coupled with the specs that we knew about.

Nintendo really didn't need to do much to make Wii U (or more precisely, their offering for this gen) radically more appealing. (Never forget AMD quad core + 640SP/8CU + 2 - 4GB GDDR5 + Better Wiimote) Now, it's just a whole mess that has the majority of people thinking they just can't be a part of the console market anymore.

One thing I don't see a lot of people talking about is how Nintendo abandoned one of their core design principles with the Wii U. I don't know if they followed this pattern in the past on purpose or not, but Wii U was a departure from it despite it's name implying the exact opposite. In the past, Nintendo has released a console and then it's immediate successor improved on it in just about every conceivable way. After the second iteration, they introduced a whole new concept and way to play games. Ex:

NES -> SNES - Improved 2D graphics and controls.
GB -> GBA - Improved 2D graphics and controls.
N64 -> Gamecube - Introduced 3D gaming and anolog controls and then improved them.
DS -> 3DS - Introduced mobile 3D & touchscreen and then improved them.
Wii -> Wii U - Introduced motion control and then abandoned them as the main input.

In those early days of speculation, I was pretty convinced of a general idea Nintendo would aim for based off their track record. I figured it would be more advanced motion controls (like motion plus but better) with more face buttons on the remote. I imagined a GameCube button layout replacing just the "A" button that's there now and possible two triggers. Based on the 3DS, I was also certain we would have some type of head tracking and 3D like what Johnny Lee Chung prototyped. I wasn't a fan of 90% of the ways motion control was used on Wii, but I was eager and excited to see Nintendo improve on it.

Of course I was also hoping Nintendo had seen the error of making the Wii under-powered and would correct that with the Wii U. I can see the reasoning they basically remade the GC into Wii because they were taking such a huge risk, but in doing so, they lost all AAA third party support. Surely they would understand that Wii would have been even more successful if it were on par w/360 & PS3. I didn't think they would go that route again especially after the PR they were giving on how they wanted more third party support.

In the end, we got the Wii U as it currently stands. After the details of the system were announced and before the system launched, I knew it would be GC levels of success at best. The problem with the Wii U is that you can see the concept of a hybrid like system in it. What was even more perplexing and upsetting was immediately after it launched in Jan 2013 at CES, we saw this very idea unveiled with the Nvidia Shield and other similar devices. It only made the concept of Wii U feel even more half-baked. It also makes me wonder if Nintendo has people that are looking at emerging tech and how to apply it anymore. I know Iwata get's a lot of flack, but all of this (and more) has happened under his watch. I'm curious to see what steps he takes going forward.

 

[Log4Girlz]

One thing I don't see a lot of people talking about is how Nintendo abandoned one of their core design principles with the Wii U. I don't know if they followed this pattern in the past on purpose or not, but Wii U was a departure from it despite it's name implying the exact opposite. In the past, Nintendo has released a console and then it's immediate successor improved on it in just about every conceivable way. After the second iteration, they introduced a whole new concept and way to play games. Ex:

NES -> SNES - Improved 2D graphics and controls.
GB -> GBA - Improved 2D graphics and controls.
N64 -> Gamecube - Introduced 3D gaming and anolog controls and then improved them.
DS -> 3DS - Introduced mobile 3D & touchscreen and then improved them.
Wii -> Wii U - Introduced motion control and then abandoned them as the main input.

In those early days of speculation, I was pretty convinced of a general idea Nintendo would aim for based off their track record. I figured it would be more advanced motion controls (like motion plus but better) with more face buttons on the remote. I imagined a GameCube button layout replacing just the "A" button that's there now and possible two triggers. Based on the 3DS, I was also certain we would have some type of head tracking and 3D like what Johnny Lee Chung prototyped. I wasn't a fan of 90% of the ways motion control was used on Wii, but I was eager and excited to see Nintendo improve on it.

Of course I was also hoping Nintendo had seen the error of making the Wii under-powered and would correct that with the Wii U. I can see the reasoning they basically remade the GC into Wii because they were taking such a huge risk, but in doing so, they lost all AAA third party support. Surely they would understand that Wii would have been even more successful if it were on par w/360 & PS3. I didn't think they would go that route again especially after the PR they were giving on how they wanted more third party support.

In the end, we got the Wii U as it currently stands. After the details of the system were announced and before the system launched, I knew it would be GC levels of success at best. The problem with the Wii U is that you can see the concept of a hybrid like system in it. What was even more perplexing and upsetting was immediately after it launched in Jan 2013 at CES, we saw this very idea unveiled with the Nvidia Shield and other similar devices. It only made the concept of Wii U feel even more half-baked. It also makes me wonder if Nintendo has people that are looking at emerging tech and how to apply it anymore. I know Iwata get's a lot of flack, but all of this (and more) has happened under his watch. I'm curious to see what steps he takes going forward.

Nintendo created a novelty and felt that once it wore off, if they followed up with a simple refinement, that they would lose their entire market.

So they tried to create a new novelty. Failed miserably and lost their entire market.
I am not sure what would have happened if they put in a motion plus and kept the hardware the same to release at a cheaper price. I think Nintendo was somewhat correct in that once the novelty wore off, they'd lose their market share and that hypothetical Wii U wouldn't have done much better than the one we have now.

What it boils down to is that the market has changed. Going after casuals, as opposed to the "mature" western market as Sony and MS has, means having to compete against mobile head on. That's a war they cannot win without a mobile device. People want tablets and phones. Putting out another type of technology to entice these gamers is doomed for failure.

 

[spekkeh]

I don't think drawing is a big pull for most people. Most people are simply too crap at it, and it makes us feel bad. I can barely manage a stick-man. Always felt like shit in art classes at school. For those who do like art, the Miiverse posting box is far too small.

Nintendo realises this, which is why they added stamps, so that non-art people could join in the visual fun. But that created the issue where there's just 'stamp-spam', which isn't good either. On top of that, the whole thing is very slow, requiring about 5 more 'clicks' than necessary to ever post anything. Outside of its implementation in games, which I love, I don't think Miiverse is great, and it's certainly not a feature that will sell hardware to anyone.

No definitely not as it is now, not in the least because it's monochrome, they would have to develop it more, create a sort of deviantart of instagram like service for drawings, and have moderators 'downvote' the stamp spam. It's true that many people can't draw and don't want to, but I think it's big with kids to be able to be creative and share this (just look at minecraft). The stamp spam in a sense is testament to this; they take the time to stop an awesome game to doodle something dumb and then spam others with it. Add in drawing classes software and a steady release of other small creative apps and I think you have a low cost, possibly big value add.

 

[BumblebeeCody]

Nintendo should also consider lowering Iwatas position.

 

[Log4Girlz]

Nintendo should also consider lowering Iwatas position.

Into the basement you go Iwata.

 

[SolarPowered]

One thing I don't see a lot of people talking about is how Nintendo abandoned one of their core design principles with the Wii U. I don't know if they followed this pattern in the past on purpose or not, but Wii U was a departure from it despite it's name implying the exact opposite. In the past, Nintendo has released a console and then it's immediate successor improved on it in just about every conceivable way. After the second iteration, they introduced a whole new concept and way to play games. Ex:

NES -> SNES - Improved 2D graphics and controls.
GB -> GBA - Improved 2D graphics and controls.
N64 -> Gamecube - Introduced 3D gaming and anolog controls and then improved them.
DS -> 3DS - Introduced mobile 3D & touchscreen and then improved them.
Wii -> Wii U - Introduced motion control and then abandoned them as the main input.

In those early days of speculation, I was pretty convinced of a general idea Nintendo would aim for based off their track record. I figured it would be more advanced motion controls (like motion plus but better) with more face buttons on the remote. I imagined a GameCube button layout replacing just the "A" button that's there now and possible two triggers. Based on the 3DS, I was also certain we would have some type of head tracking and 3D like what Johnny Lee Chung prototyped. I wasn't a fan of 90% of the ways motion control was used on Wii, but I was eager and excited to see Nintendo improve on it.

Of course I was also hoping Nintendo had seen the error of making the Wii under-powered and would correct that with the Wii U. I can see the reasoning they basically remade the GC into Wii because they were taking such a huge risk, but in doing so, they lost all AAA third party support. Surely they would understand that Wii would have been even more successful if it were on par w/360 & PS3. I didn't think they would go that route again especially after the PR they were giving on how they wanted more third party support.

In the end, we got the Wii U as it currently stands. After the details of the system were announced and before the system launched, I knew it would be GC levels of success at best. The problem with the Wii U is that you can see the concept of a hybrid like system in it. What was even more perplexing and upsetting was immediately after it launched in Jan 2013 at CES, we saw this very idea unveiled with the Nvidia Shield and other similar devices. It only made the concept of Wii U feel even more half-baked. It also makes me wonder if Nintendo has people that are looking at emerging tech and how to apply it anymore. I know Iwata get's a lot of flack, but all of this (and more) has happened under his watch. I'm curious to see what steps he takes going forward.

This sentiment was echoed a lot before the WUST threads when info still wasn't concrete and I was truly excited to see Nintendo competing with the big boys while offering a novel motion control+pointer scheme. It was supremely disappointing to see the Wii-mote get tossed out on it's ass in favor of a dual analog+single touchscreen scheme. Someone messed up when they designed the Wii U looking to ride the coattails of the Wii brand after the main control scheme blatantly went in a wholly different direction. Nevermind the major damage they'd done to the brand with the horrible software crash the Wii experienced in the last two years of it's life.

No way I'm falling for that "revolution->evolution" theory again.

 

[MadOdorMachine]

Nintendo created a novelty and felt that once it wore off, if they followed up with a simple refinement, that they would lose their entire market.

So they tried to create a new novelty. Failed miserably and lost their entire market.
I am not sure what would have happened if they put in a motion plus and kept the hardware the same to release at a cheaper price. I think Nintendo was somewhat correct in that once the novelty wore off, they'd lose their market share and that hypothetical Wii U wouldn't have done much better than the one we have now.

What it boils down to is that the market has changed. Going after casuals, as opposed to the "mature" western market as Sony and MS has, means having to compete against mobile head on. That's a war they cannot win without a mobile device. People want tablets and phones. Putting out another type of technology to entice these gamers is doomed for failure.

Maybe so, I don't remember seeing their reasoning behind it, I just know they abandoned the pattern I noted above. Again, that pattern may or may not have been intentional. Another problem is that if they had chosen to follow that pattern and make an incremental improvement to Wii, the specs of the Wii U would have been fine had they released it earlier. I feel like Motion + should have never been released on Wii as it segregated the market. I feel like they should have released Wii U and motion + together a few years earlier. There are so many mistakes they made that it's really kind of mind boggling.

The market has changed, I'll agree, but a large problem is Nintendo's timing. The gamepad would probably be great as a stand alone tablet. As I and other have said, it's a shame Nintendo didn't see the emerging tech coming and build their entire hardware base off of it. They could have had incremental power levels of hardware that all share the same library. Ex. Small handheld is low powered and lowest graphical setting. Tablet is medium powered and at the very least has a higher resolution. Console has the best graphics.

Whether Nintendo wants to admit it or not, they are competing with Microsoft, Apple, Sony and Samsung. There are ways they can offer more compelling hardware and services without breaking the bank and abandoning their core gaming principles.

 

[E-phonk]

Basically, even if you bought a Wii in the drought between the launch window and SMG release, there was at least a promise of very high quality games coming in "short" time, a momentum that was maintained by the E3 2007.

Launch window (nov-dec 2006) had:
Twilight Princess
Wii Sports
Trauma Center
Call of Duty 3
Far Cry
Elebits
Excite Truck
Need for speed
Red Steel
Pokemon battle revolution
Super monkey ball
Tony hawk downhill jam
Wii play

That's a nice variety of launch games.

In the next 12 months they had (first party published only now):
Super Mario Galaxy
Metroid Prime 3: Corruption
Wii Fit
Battalion Wars 2
Big Brain Academy
Donkey Kong Barrel Blast
Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn
Super Paper Mario
Link's Crossbow Training
Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games
Mario Party 8
Mario Strikers Charged

That totally trumps the Wii U's 2013 in both variety and quality. That's on average one game a month, I wouldn't call that a drought.

 

[Stone Ocean]

Please don't remind people of that Wii Far Cry game lol

But yeah, between launch and Smash the Wii was fucking loaded with first party games. I had no reason to regret my purchase until 2008.

 

[ab.aeterno]

As I said..most people just see the initial price tag and ignore the rest. They see the Wii U as $299 the PS4 as $399, the Xbone as $499...and that's it. They ignore the extra $180 dollars for not being able to use last gens controllers, they ignore the $300-$360 online fee for the generation, they ignore the the lack of backwards compatibility.

That's a silly thing to include. I have only two Wiimotes, for instance, neither of them with Motion Plus. I'd have to rebuy 4 controllers for a WiiU, to be comparable. Meanwhile, I don't intend on buying another DS4 because there's so few local multiplayer games to make it worth it, IMO.

Has anybody seen this?

http://www.nintendonews.com/2014/01/nintendo-fusion-could-be-nintendos-next-gen-hardware-name/

It sounds really silly

We have just received an anonymous tip from one of our very reputable sources regarding possible information related to Nintendo’s next-generation hardware; for both its home and portable consoles.

I basically can't stop laughing. Wasn't this posted elsewhere first? Even if it wasn't, literally nothing here sounds plausible, and certainly not for Nintendo, who has disregarded the pursuit of absolute power for systems. It reads like poor fan fiction wish fulfillment.

 

[Brickhunt]

@E-phonk, when I said "High quality games", I was talking about the big, AAA games that everyone was looking forward. While I agree these are very good games, I do argue that the reason most core gamers were buying the Wii was to play SMG, SMBB and MP3. (Games that happened to be already announced in 2006 alongside the Wii)

Nintendo created a novelty and felt that once it wore off, if they followed up with a simple refinement, that they would lose their entire market.

So they tried to create a new novelty. Failed miserably and lost their entire market.
I am not sure what would have happened if they put in a motion plus and kept the hardware the same to release at a cheaper price. I think Nintendo was somewhat correct in that once the novelty wore off, they'd lose their market share and that hypothetical Wii U wouldn't have done much better than the one we have now.

What it boils down to is that the market has changed. Going after casuals, as opposed to the "mature" western market as Sony and MS has, means having to compete against mobile head on. That's a war they cannot win without a mobile device. People want tablets and phones. Putting out another type of technology to entice these gamers is doomed for failure.

Honestly, that is a very big 'what if'. Even if that hypothetical Wii U didn't do better than the Wii U of now. An improved Wiimote+Nunchaku would definitively be cheaper than the GamePad, so unless it was supposed to be with mindblowing motion controls, it would be already worth it over the GamePad.

Besides, there is no actual data proving that people didn't want motion controls/IR aiming anymore. The main reason why the 'novelty' fell of was because Nintendo stopped supplying the Wii with games. If people base their claim on PlayStation Move or Kinect 1, then it boggles my mind that they don't considerate that sold-separately devices would never get the support from developers like a packed in device like the Wiimote. (Actually the same reason Wii M+ didn't really take off with 3rd parties)

 

[E-phonk]

@E-phonk, when I said "High quality games", I was talking about the big, AAA games that everyone was looking forward. While I agree these are very good games, I do argue that the reason most core gamers were buying the Wii was to play SMG, SMBB and MP3. (Games that happened to be already announced in 2006 alongside the Wii)

True, but the complaints about the software situation would have been a lot less if Nintendo managed to release Battalion Wars 3, Fire Emblem: U, Paper Mario U and Mario Strikers Ultimate in 2013.

Not their big AAA titles, but good solid releases that speak to the older/core nintendo fanbase (that can be enjoyed by all).

Heck, just the announcement of these 4 games for 2014 in this months Direct, would result in enthusiastic reactions and I'm sure a few extra Wii U purchases from people who are currently on the edge.

 

[monome]

I wonder how many of the blood thristy posters are american in here.

Do you post your outrage every time an american company CEO burns through the company's assets, leaves with millions and gets to do the same at another company if only as a Board director?

Iwata greenlited the WiiU, which is a fiasco, yet at the same time he greenlited the 3DS which apparent quick demise turned out to do okay, especially with regards as to how the tablet/smartphone is thriving these days...

WiiU was never doomed for the beginning. It just did not get traction...how many electronic products just get no traction?

are we in a situation where Nintendo still make products whereas the market for them has vanished? or been dragged to being a zero profits one?

Do you, personnally or professionnaly, succeed in everything you do. even the most mundane things?

I can understand the frustration at not being addicted to a Nintendo product, that the craving to bow before our Japanese Gaming Lords is missing from our lives but Iwata is just doing his job of running a company without betting everything on black.

Rest assured that would Nintendo face financial collapse, its IPs and other assets would end up in the hands of other companies. It's publicly traded business.
But the rush for mobile games is not an endaring thought, IMO.
Nor is the prospect of Nintendo burning its cash in a move to out-tech Sony.
As far as Apple/Google/MS are concerned, they are just too rich and too big companies to even think about competing in their space. there are no gentleman agreements in the tech/entertainment industry. Nintendo would be facing tons of hurdles only to get the same level of leverage on the supply/distribution part of the business.

 

[AppleBlade]

I wonder how many of the blood thristy posters are american in here.

Do you post your outrage every time an american company CEO burns through the company's assets, leaves with millions and gets to do the same at another company if only as a Board director?

Iwata greenlited the WiiU, which is a fiasco, yet at the same time he greenlited the 3DS which apparent quick demise turned out to do okay, especially with regards as to how the tablet/smartphone is thriving these days...

WiiU was never doomed for the beginning. It just did not get traction...how many electronic products just get no traction?

are we in a situation where Nintendo still make products whereas the market for them has vanished? or been dragged to being a zero profits one?

Do you, personnally or professionnaly, succeed in everything you do. even the most mundane things?

I can understand the frustration at not being addicted to a Nintendo product, that the craving to bow before our Japanese Gaming Lords is missing from our lives but Iwata is just doing his job of running a company without betting everything on black.

Rest assured that would Nintendo face financial collapse, its IPs and other assets would end up in the hands of other companies. It's publicly traded business.
But the rush for mobile games is not an endaring thought, IMO.
Nor is the prospect of Nintendo burning its cash in a move to out-tech Sony.
As far as Apple/Google/MS are concerned, they are just too rich and too big companies to even think about competing in their space. there are no gentleman agreements in the tech/entertainment industry. Nintendo would be facing tons of hurdles only to get the same level of leverage on the supply/distribution part of the business.

Good post, though I do not necessarily agree with everything you said. Nintendo burning cash to out-tech Sony was not something Nintendo had to do to keep their console close enough in power to make next-gen ports a possibility. Instead of going for the most powerful cpu that fit their budget they put on the restriction of backwards compatibility at the cost of performance. Not only making PS4/Xbone ports an issue but even PS3/360 ports are an issue because the CPU is in some ways inferior to machines made a half decade ago. This is not a hindsight is 20-20 type of revelation, it was quite literally committing the same mistake twice which really irks me.

 

[MadOdorMachine]

Honestly, that is a very big 'what if'. Even if that hypothetical Wii U didn't do better than the Wii U of now. An improved Wiimote+Nunchaku would definitively be cheaper than the GamePad, so unless it was supposed to be with mindblowing motion controls, it would be already worth it over the GamePad.

Besides, there is no actual data proving that people didn't want motion controls/IR aiming anymore. The main reason why the 'novelty' fell of was because Nintendo stopped supplying the Wii with games. If people base their claim on PlayStation Move or Kinect 1, then it boggles my mind that they don't considerate that sold-separately devices would never get the support from developers like a packed in device like the Wiimote. (Actually the same reason Wii M+ didn't really take off with 3rd parties)

Pretty much this. The Wii started it's decline around 2010 IIRC, but it seems a big reason for this was the lack of software. I thought (and I'm sure many others did as well) that the reason was due to preparation for the Wii's successor, but that doesn't seem to be the case. I'd be interested to know what exactly was happening during this time period.

In either case, it would have been the ideal time to release an update to Wii. Everyone was calling for a Wii HD or Wii 2 and it never happened. I agree that there was no indication that people didn't want motion controls. The biggest problem I have with them is that they are best used in an VR/AR environment. It's ironic that 3DS launched w/Face Raiders as well. I thought for sure that was a clue of things to come, but it wasn't.

I wonder how many of the blood thristy posters are american in here.

Do you post your outrage every time an american company CEO burns through the company's assets, leaves with millions and gets to do the same at another company if only as a Board director?

Iwata greenlited the WiiU, which is a fiasco, yet at the same time he greenlited the 3DS which apparent quick demise turned out to do okay, especially with regards as to how the tablet/smartphone is thriving these days...

WiiU was never doomed for the beginning. It just did not get traction...how many electronic products just get no traction?

are we in a situation where Nintendo still make products whereas the market for them has vanished? or been dragged to being a zero profits one?

Do you, personnally or professionnaly, succeed in everything you do. even the most mundane things?

I can understand the frustration at not being addicted to a Nintendo product, that the craving to bow before our Japanese Gaming Lords is missing from our lives but Iwata is just doing his job of running a company without betting everything on black.

Rest assured that would Nintendo face financial collapse, its IPs and other assets would end up in the hands of other companies. It's publicly traded business.
But the rush for mobile games is not an endaring thought, IMO.
Nor is the prospect of Nintendo burning its cash in a move to out-tech Sony.
As far as Apple/Google/MS are concerned, they are just too rich and too big companies to even think about competing in their space. there are no gentleman agreements in the tech/entertainment industry. Nintendo would be facing tons of hurdles only to get the same level of leverage on the supply/distribution part of the business.

What does someone's nationality have to do with this? I'm American and I'm not calling for Iwata to resign. He does need to pull his head out of his *** though. There's a way to still be conservative and not abandon your companies principles while still expanding and meeting market needs/requirements. Their complete failure to not take action is what's upsetting and anyone with a brain could see that Wii U being successful was wishful thinking. It was apparent the system was underpowered and not going to get the third party support it needed before launch.