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[KungFucius]

We don't know that at all though. It's likely, yes, but people here acting like a brand new mobile chip can't possibly compete with what's in 3 year old consoles are frankly being ignorant.

Nintendo likely won't want this to be too expensive which limits the type of chip they can order, but a Tegra which outperforms an XB1 can certainly be made. Even one that outperforms a PS4 can be made. This one is just not that likely to do so based on the info we have now.

It does outperform it since you can play it on a plane. The switch is good enough ++. At some point you need to relax about the technical side and just enjoy the games. As a moron who owns a PS4/Xbone WiiU and 1080 Powered PC all hooked up to the same TV I can see this as the only console I will want moving forward. All I will miss is PS exclusives. ( I will admit that some are pretty great, but what's the point) I love high performance games and playing with that shit, but at the same time if I play a good 5+ year old title I missed, I don't really notice the gaps if the game is good.

On the other end I have a 4month old. This is perfect for adult gamers with kids. Give them the damn switch and play the top notch Nintendo games you want to play on the docking station. I love that about it. The other consoles cannot do that. That makes it much more valuable than a stupid PS4 to me.

Now if I was still in college and could only afford a console. ... I don't know. It would really depend on my tastes and what type of TV I had, if I had one which I always did and I always had some system. I am not sure. For the family market it is a must have. For the rest ?? I am giving my WiiU to my nieces and buying one regardless.

 

[KingSnake]

Oh, do know that Nvidia is more efficient than AMD when it comes to bandwith (and overall power)! But its advantages have to be used correctly by the developer themselves, as the performance differences between Dx12 and Dx11 PC games on Nvidia hardware have shown.

I think that is quite probable for a small, time and budget limited Activision/Ubisoft/ect team to not get the most of a lower specced Nvidia machine when tasked to port code designed for the AMD twins.

Read that article. It's not about DX11 or DX12.

 

[Renekton]

How does 4x A57 compare with 8-core Jaguar?

 

[Schnozberry]

How does 4x A57 compare with 8-core Jaguar?

We don't even know if that's accurate.

 

[Lonely1]

The bolded isn't true at all (at least when it comes to bandwidth). The main differentiator between the two (tile-based rendering on Nvidia) is completely invisible to software, and wasn't even known about until a year or two after the hardware had already been released.

This is true, but do you expect tile rendering being able to cover the bandwidth deficit of a Tegra (lets say parker) when compared to the consoles? Honest question! I would think that they would need to change to different rendering models to make the most use of the machine. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Read that article. It's not about DX11 or DX12.

Is a fact that many (most?) developers have struggled to match Nvidia own Dx11 stack with their Dx12 implementations, some times spectacularly.

 

[……forgetit]

The most interesting thing to me is that the handheld is pretty obviously actively cooled. That by itself makes me think it's more powerful than most think.

 

[Schnozberry]

This is true, but do you expect tile rendering being able to cover the bandwidth deficit of a Tegra (lets say parker) when compared to the consoles? Honest question!

Is a fact that many (most?) developers have struggled to match Nvidia own Dx11 stack with their Dx12 implementation, some times spectacularly.

Nintendo won't be using DX at all, so it's an irrelevant comparison. You aren't going to make up for large bandwidth deficiencies with tiling and compression, but they could minimize them with embedded memory or a generous cache setup.

 

[Easy_D]

The innards are based on low power consumption chips and tech found on other portable devices. That's not a console.

Customly made chip based on existing tech doesn't exactly scream "existing in other portable devices" though.

 

[Grampa Simpson]

Could be an X2 variant. That's also 256 visa cores. Just drop the Denver cores. Would probably help the battery life being on Pascal.

 

[Lonely1]

Nintendo won't be using DX at all, so it's an irrelevant comparison. You aren't going to make up for large bandwidth deficiencies with tiling and compression, but they could minimize them with embedded memory or a generous cache setup.

The whole point of DX12 (and Vulcan) is that it gives lower level access to the developers, and so far have they struggled to match all the optimizations that Nvidia made for them with their Dx11 drivers. Working with a Nintendo API would be similar, given that the code they are tasked to port is written and tested primarily for the AMD consoles. Can you follow me now?

 

[KingSnake]

Is a fact that many (most?) developers have struggled to match Nvidia own Dx11 stack with their Dx12 implementations, some times spectacularly.

There's no DirectX on Switch. It all depends on the API and the integration with the OS. And Nvidia brags that they did a good job:

https://blogs.nvidia.com/blog/2016/10/20/nintendo-switch/

The Nintendo Switch’s gaming experience is also supported by fully custom software, including a revamped physics engine, new libraries, advanced game tools and libraries. NVIDIA additionally created new gaming APIs to fully harness this performance. The newest API, NVN, was built specifically to bring lightweight, fast gaming to the masses.
Gameplay is further enhanced by hardware-accelerated video playback and custom software for audio effects and rendering.
We’ve optimized the full suite of hardware and software for gaming and mobile use cases. This includes custom operating system integration with the GPU to increase both performance and efficiency.

I don't see Nvidia bragging about something that would need to render at 504p on the TV.

 

[BBboy20]

The most interesting thing to me is that the handheld is pretty obviously actively cooled. That by itself makes me think it'smore powerful than most think.

Well, a WiiU at the palms of your hands was to be expected.

 

[jdstorm]

It does outperform it since you can play it on a plane. The switch is good enough ++. At some point you need to relax about the technical side and just enjoy the games. As a moron who owns a PS4/Xbone WiiU and 1080 Powered PC all hooked up to the same TV I can see this as the only console I will want moving forward. All I will miss is PS exclusives. ( I will admit that some are pretty great, but what's the point) I love high performance games and playing with that shit, but at the same time if I play a good 5+ year old title I missed, I don't really notice the gaps if the game is good.

On the other end I have a 4month old. This is perfect for adult gamers with kids. Give them the damn switch and play the top notch Nintendo games you want to play on the docking station. I love that about it. The other consoles cannot do that. That makes it much more valuable than a stupid PS4 to me.

Now if I was still in college and could only afford a console. ... I don't know. It would really depend on my tastes and what type of TV I had, if I had one which I always did and I always had some system. I am not sure. For the family market it is a must have. For the rest ?? I am giving my WiiU to my nieces and buying one regardless.

If you are in college always go nintendo. Mario Kart/Drunk local multiplayer will get you laid.

 

[Lonely1]

I don't see Nvidia bragging about something that would need to render at 504p on the TV.

I find running a PS4/XB game on a handheld at 504p to be very impressive. Good job Nvidia!

 

[Donnie]

We, he's indeed saying stuff that makes sense to me, like a Tegra (any Tegra or mobile chip for that matter) being bandwidth-limited when compared to the consoles, this having a negative effect for rendering scenarios that require high bandwidth, which happens to be many console games.

Now, I would be very happy if Nintendo included a pool of faster VRAM so that this wouldn't be an issue! But I'm kind skeptic on a handheld approaching the XBOne GPU power at this point in time.

He's claiming Parker, which has 50GB/s bandwidth is 1/8th the performance of XBoxOne (which has 68GB/s) due to bandwidth differences. Again he's adding up ESRAM and main bandwidth for Xbox One, comparing it directly to only main bandwidth on Parker AND still getting the bandwidth for Parker wrong anyway (1/8th total Xbox One bandwidth is 25GB which is Maxwell's bandwidth not Parker). That's before we even get into how stupid it is to compare one set of bandwidth to another and assume linear performance differences based on that.

Its all fine and well to say it sounds sensible for a mobile chip to be bandwidth limited vs a console, but the specifics of what he's saying are complete nonsense in numerous ways.

 

[KingSnake]

I find running a PS4/XB game on a handheld at 504p to be very impressive. Good job Nvidia!

This is disingenuous, really. I better go to sleep, there's nothing more to discuss here.

 

[FStubbs]

Fixed as of latest Super eps

Wouldn't PC be Beerus or Whis?

 

[Lonely1]

Its all fine and well to say it sounds sensible for a mobile chip to be bandwidth limited vs a console, but the specifics of what he's saying are complete nonsense in numerous ways.

Yeah, that part is likely wrong. I find everything else to be very plausible.

This is disingenuous, really. I better go to sleep, there's nothing more to discuss here.

What is is disingenuous? And are you sure you are not the one who isn't understanding what implies working with the different APIs?

 

[WhiteWaterM00se]

Ok everyone. Very simply, can this run ports of Xbone games?

Could we see ports like Overwatch, For Honor, Destiny, Battlefield or Battlefront? Or with this system have to live and die by unique experience only in Switch?

 

[KingSnake]

What is is disingenuous?

Because you keep pointing out "on a handheld" when we discuss on some pretty clearly defined specs (Parker vs. Xbone) and about rendering docked on the TV.

"on a handheld" makes no difference in this context.

 

[Lonely1]

Because you keep pointing out "on a handheld" when we discuss on some pretty clearly defined specs (Parker vs. Xbone) and about rendering docked on the TV.

"on a handheld" makes no difference in this context.

Different rendering modes for wireless mode vs docked are pure fan speculation. All leaks/rumors report no difference and Nintendo has gone on record that the dock only charges the device and provides connectivity. The sooner people accept that the Switch is a handheld with tv-out the better imho.

Now, I would love to taste delicious crow, though! As long as games are optimized for the hanheld, since I love handhelds!

 

[Astral Dog]

I have to agree with bytesized here, for obvious reasons.

I mean.. Guys.. This is Nintendo. You know surprises are never in the good direction with them.

You actually think, there is universe where Nintendo will show a worldwide reveal trailer with games that are way below what the machine can do, for reasons.. And then suddenly in 5 months everything will be way better ?

The sad truth is, i remember everyone in those speculation threads talking about what would be the minimum tegra performance for that range of price etc.. That was not counting on Nintendo's philosophy.

Which may have been from the start "having the WiiU in portable form is INCREDIBLE and people will be AMAZED at it. It's like 100x times more advanced than a 3ds for christ sake. So let's have that. Let's have a console that has the same graphics on tv and in portable mode cause that will be amazing. So if we have WiiU graphics in the portable, let's scale the tv mode to that for parity.

Or of course the console is super powerful and showing 3 games (4 with Mario but some seems to disagree) with exact WiiU graphics for the worldwide reveal may have been a sad mistake from them. Not even counting the absolutely abysmal message it sent everyone "Hey, This is the wiiu again".

what the hell

 

[Skittzo0413]

Ok everyone. Very simply, can this run ports of Xbone games?

Could we see ports like Overwatch, For Honor, Destiny, Battlefield or Battlefront? Or with this system have to live and die by unique experience only in Switch?

Yes, possibly with some settings reduced but there shouldn't be technical problems in porting those titles.

That in no way guarantees that these companies will see any financial incentive in porting those games though.

 

[KingSnake]

Different rendering modes for wireless mode vs docked are pure fan speculation.

What do you think the scalable processor in the OP refers to?

What do you make of this:

We’ve optimized the full suite of hardware and software for gaming and mobile use cases.

I have the impression that you don't even read what's posted. You already came in here with your opinion and nothing makes it move one bit.

At least say so, I can save some energy.

 

[Lonely1]

What do you think the scalable processor in the OP refers to?

What do you make of this:



I have the impression that you don't even read what's posted. You already came in here with your opinion and nothing makes it move one bit.

At least say so, I can save some energy.

You are reading way to much into that... (Handheld gaming isn't gaming!?). And I believe that you are the one who came here with a preconceived opinion, as blu an other Nintendo hardware speculator regulars can attest, I'm very positive when it comes to Nintendo hardware and entertained the idea of a more powerful non-handheld mode, but that looks very unlikely atm IMHO.

 

[Votron]

How does 4x A57 compare with 8-core Jaguar?

^ THIS..Regardless if the spec has been clarified or not..

 

[Gotdatmoney]

Have we deduced whether or not it's pascal. With this being nintendo I assume no but rumors are everywhere

 

[Lonely1]

Have we deduced whether or not it's pascal. With this being nintendo I assume no but rumors are everywhere

For me, the picture is clear: the rumors state that the fineld devices being pascal, with (a batch of) the dev kits being Maxwell.

 

[Skittzo0413]

You are reading way to much into that... (Handheld gaming isn't gaming!?). And I believe that you are the one who came here with a preconceived opinion, as blu an other Nintendo hardware speculator regulars can attest, I'm very positive when it comes to Nintendo hardware and entertained the idea of a more powerful non-handheld mode, but that looks very unlikely atm IMHO.

Then what do you make of the vent(s) and the insider reports of active cooling? Surely it wouldn't be actively cooled while in portable mode, as that would give this an atrocious battery life. That in and of itself highly suggests an increased performance docked mode, if only to reach 1080p on a TV.

 

[KingSnake]

You are reading way to much into that... (Handheld gaming isn't gaming!?). And I believe that you are the one who came here with a preconceived opinion, as blu an other Nintendo hardware speculator regulars can attest, I'm very positive when it comes to Nintendo hardware and entertained the idea of a more powerful non-handheld mode, but that looks very unlikely atm IMHO.

You haven't actually answered anything. OK, I wait for blu to attest what you say.

 

[tiredheadcrab]

I am trying to think of a popular device that is not made by Nvidia, that has their own Tegra chips inside them.

I had a Sony Tablet S which was terrible and never took off.

There was that Motorola Phone that came out around 2010. It was, I believe one of the first devices to have a finger print reader, and it was placed on the back. It wasnt as good as touch id or nexus print.

The current Pixel tablet has the X1.

I am sure there are a few more phones. But they were not successful. I am not sure how the Shield devices are doing.

Switch is a big grab for them and their Tegra chips. However I feel like they barely caught on and I am wondering if Nvidia is going to keep making these.

 

[antonz]

I am trying to think of a popular device that is not made by Nvidia, that has their own Tegra chips inside them.

I had a Sony Tablet S which was terrible and never took off.

There was that Motorola Phone that came out around 2010. It was, I believe one of the first devices to have a finger print reader, and it was placed on the back. It wasnt as good as touch id or nexus print.

The current Pixel tablet has the X1.

I am sure there are a few more phones. But they were not successful. I am not sure how the Shield devices are doing.

Switch is a big grab for them and their Tegra chips. However I feel like they barely caught on and I am wondering if Nvidia is going to keep making these.

Nvidia really wont need shield devices if they can keep a solid development path in place for Nintendo to stay with them. At this point Switch is direct competition to any potential future shield device.

 

[Lonely1]

Then what do you make of the vent(s) and the insider reports of active cooling? Surely it wouldn't be actively cooled while in portable mode, as that would give this an atrocious battery life. That in and of itself highly suggests an increased performance docked mode, if only to reach 1080p on a TV.

Active cooling in handheld mode is a very Nvidia thing to do!

The Nvidia Shield has excellent battery life too! Better than the 3DS and the Vita.

You haven't actually answered anything. OK, I wait for blu to attest what you say.

Answer what? Did you pose any question?

 

[KingSnake]

Answer what? Did you pose any question?

Yes. Two questions in the last posts.

Edit:

Active cooling in handheld mode is a very Nvidia thing to do!

If Switch is actively cooled all the time then the whole "on a handheld" makes even less sense. Because it would mean that Tegra runs at high clocks (at least Pixel C levels) all the times. So the difference to Xbone is lower even in handheld mode. I think you put yourself in a bit of a trap here.

 

[Skittzo0413]

Active cooling in handheld mode is a very Nvidia thing to do!

The Nvidia Shield has excellent battery life too! Better than the 3DS and the Vita.

For some reason I thought just the Shield TV was actively cooled. Doesn't the Shield handheld use a TK1 though? Which generates much more heat than a Pascal Tegra?

Also we have Laura K Buzz saying she's heard that the dock does increase performance, which all adds up to a fan in the dock that cools the screen portion through the vents when docked. Obviously nothing is confirmed yet but it's seeming like a safe bet at this point.

 

[Lonely1]

For some reason I thought just the Shield TV was actively cooled. Doesn't the Shield handheld use a TK1 though? Which generates much more heat than a Pascal Tegra?

Also we have Laura K Buzz saying she's heard that the dock does increase performance, which all adds up to a fan in the dock that cools the screen portion through the vents when docked. Obviously nothing is confirmed yet but it's seeming like a safe bet at this point.

The Shield Portable uses Tegra 4. Its old and I have been waiting years for a succesor, and looks like the wait is comming to an end!

I would personally prefer an active cooled handheld over higher docked performance. So maybe I'm indeed a bit biased.

Yes. Two questions in the last posts.

I told you that you don't read. I'm not sure I should continue this discussion, I don't enjoy talking to a wall.

I answered by "you are reading too much into that". That's my answer, leave it or take it.

If Switch is actively cooled all the time then the whole "on a handheld" makes even less sense. Because it would mean that Tegra runs at high clocks (at least Pixel C levels) all the times. So the difference to Xbone is lower even in handheld mode.

No, it makes perfect sense. My position is that 1/3 to 1/2 of XBOne GPU performance would make the Shift the most powerful handheld in the market by a good marking. It's closest competitor (The ipad pro) is bellow that and has a much bigger aluminum body to dissipate the heat.

 

[shark sandwich]

How does 4x A57 compare with 8-core Jaguar?

A57 likely significantly outclasses Jaguar in single-threaded performance.

Back when PS4 was announced there was an article that compared Jaguar vs Cortex A15. It was a pretty close contest and A15 actually came out on top in a few benchmarks.

A57 (which is an evolution of the A15 with 64-bit support) is around 20% faster than A15 at the same clock speed when running 32-bit code. Haven't seen any good benchmarks of it running in 64-bit mode, but the 64-bit ARM instruction set is supposed to be a lot more efficient. (e.g. Apple's iPhone CPUs get a pretty significant boost in 64-bit mode http://www.anandtech.com/show/7335/the-iphone-5s-review/4 )

 

[UncleSporky]

To add to that, seemed like the dock may blow air in the bottom here and it goes through the top. I believe Emily that it's actively cooled, my question is, is the fan in the dock or the tablet.

[IM G]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CvQDl4ZUMAAztKJ.jpg:large[/IMG]



Leaving the fan in the dock would be pretty elegant imo. Pass through a relatively large heatsink, while not having a moving part in the expensive and battery bound tablet.

On the one hand, no moving part in the handheld, and slightly lighter.

On the other...shortsighted of them to eliminate the possibility of one day enabling "console mode" when portable, releasing a better battery to support this, etc.

Remember, 3DS saw its hardware "enhanced" for Smash by rebooting into full RAM mode. They could do the same later with Switch, if portable fan is an option.

 

[Spyder_Monkey]

How's Super Metal Dave reacting?

 

[LegendOfFalcon]

The most interesting thing to me is that the handheld is pretty obviously actively cooled. That by itself makes me think it's more powerful than most think.

That's a good point! For example the nvidia shield tv is not actively cooled. I know we don't usually get specs from Nintendo, but with Nvidia being involved I'm hopeful we'll get more detail from Nvidia down the road.

 

[Grampa Simpson]

Maybe they do gsync on the tablet. Would allow them to drop the clock rate when portable and still stay smooth.

 

[Nipo]

The Shield Portable uses Tegra 4. Its old and I have been waiting years for a succesor, and looks like the wait is comming to an end!

I would personally prefer an active cooled handheld over higher docked performance. So maybe I'm indeed a bit biased.



I answered by "you are reading too much into that". That's my answer, leave it or take it.



No, it makes perfect sense. My position is that 1/3 to 1/2 of XBOne GPU performance would make the Shift the most powerful handheld in the market by a good marking. It's closest competitor (The ipad pro) is bellow that and has a much bigger aluminum body to dissipate the heat.

Well we're getting new iPad pros in a few weeks right? I assume a $1000 tablet will be more powerful than a $300 one.

 

[Hellgardia]

I would bet maxwell on devkits with pascal on the final product.
Nvidia has been quiet about denver cores and i think the a57 have been confirmed. Pity they are not a72s though

Edit: nvm the a57 are on the devkits but are not confirmed for the final product i believe

 

[Schnozberry]

The whole point of DX12 (and Vulcan) is that it gives lower level access to the developers, and so far have they struggled to match all the optimizations that Nvidia made for them with their Dx11 drivers. Working with a Nintendo API would be similar, given that the code they are tasked to port is written and tested primarily for the AMD consoles. Can you follow me now?

I follow you just fine. I think we're on different subjects. You were talking about the deficiencies in memory bandwidth between the Switch and the consoles, and somehow that became a tangent about API's.

There is no chance the Switch is as powerful as the PS4 and Xbox One. My point was that the bandwidth could be made less of a handicap if they used embedded memory or a sizeable cache setup. The source you pulled from Anandtech seems to want to make a direct comparison between the raw numbers, which can be misleading with how differently Tegra and AMD GCN manage memory. I don't think the Switch is some beast of a Pascal GPU that is held back by it's paltry memory bus. It's a much more balanced system than Maxwell.

How the Nintendo API stacks up to DX12 and GNM/GNMX is an open question. The fact that Nvidia had low level OS access and assisted with the tool chain is promising.

 

[Doctre81]

^ THIS..Regardless if the spec has been clarified or not..

Considering jaguar was barely beating some A15's i say pretty comparable actually.

 

[Oblivion]

So...do we know exactly how powerful this thing is?

 

[ChuyMasta]

So...do we know exactly how powerful this thing is?

I'd like to think of it as a Wii U pro, or Wii U +.

 

[Palladium]

I would bet maxwell on devkits with pascal on the final product.
Nvidia has been quiet about denver cores and i think the a57 have been confirmed. Pity they are not a72s though

Edit: nvm the a57 are on the devkits but are not confirmed for the final product i believe

At the least they finally have the wisdom to just adopt a still modern-for-the-time ARM core and GPU for a portable instead of the custom garbage chip used for the 3DS.

 

[HooYaH]

I'd like to think of it as a Wii U pro, or Wii U +.

Duct tape.

 

[antonz]

I would bet maxwell on devkits with pascal on the final product.
Nvidia has been quiet about denver cores and i think the a57 have been confirmed. Pity they are not a72s though

Edit: nvm the a57 are on the devkits but are not confirmed for the final product i believe

If Parker ends up in the final kit as has been suggested A57 would remain. Parker for the most part is Tegra X1 enhanced with better memory systems and all the efficiency gains of Pascal and a die shrink.