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[rofif]

DLSS or FSR2 were never supposed to be scapegoats for lazy devs who cannot make other proper to them AA solution.
That said, I usually use DLSS quality with 4k.
On consoles, it's a tragedy because devs use shitty fsr2 to upscale to 4k from very low resolutions which it was never meant to do

 

[TheAssist]

Strange to make such a statment like that if you never did a new game. Getting an already project done from others companies IMO is the easy part. Is like copy/paste homework from others.

Clearly, you know a lot about game engineering

 

[Fake]

Clearly, you know a lot about game engineering

Top tier argument. Keep up, or until that tweet got deleted.

 

[Shifty1897]

What a mature, eloquent and well spoken developer! completely goes against the stereotype. whodathunkit?

Most senior devs I know cuss like sailors and can act like asshats because their code makes everything work so they're treated as unfireable rock stars.

Spoiler

I'm very jealous of them. My code is shit.

 

[YeulEmeralda]

The excuse is a big fat check from AMD/Nvidia/Intel.

 

[Buggy Loop]

The excuse is a big fat check from AMD/Nvidia/Intel.

Nvidia tried to simplify this

Streamline

developer.nvidia.com

Open kit for all upscalers, Intel signed. AMD didn't.

 

[BennyBlanco]

AMD is going to the top of my shitlist if they really paid to keep DLSS out of starfield. But for the reasons listed in the OP it will be easy for modders to get it working.

 

[GreatnessRD]

The excuse is a big fat check from AMD/Nvidia/Intel.

This is the correct answer. Everybody has a price and AMD, Nvidia and Intel has paid it before. Don't understand what the uproar is about. All of them has gatekept SOMETHING.

 

[Mr.Phoenix]

Strange to make such a statment like that if you never did a new game. Getting an already project done from others companies IMO is the easy part. Is like copy/paste homework from others.

wow....

 

[Fake]

wow....

IMO you guys should read the follow up conversation before getting triggered.

 

[TheAssist]

Top tier argument. Keep up, or until that tweet got deleted.

Oh so you do know some things about game development and realize that it doesn't matter whether you develop whole games or do ports jobs when it comes to the implementation of third party graphics API's. Good.

 

[Doctor Hades]

Didn't we already know this already?

AMD and NVIDIA both use anti-consumer practices to get people to buy their products over the competition but AMD are even worse because FSR can be used on NVIDIA and Intel GPUs anyway so by prohibiting the use of XeSS and DLSS in their sponsored games they aren't suddenly going to get people buying their GPUs. The more likely truth is that they have no confidence in their software so they do not want FSR being compared unfavourably to XeSS and DLSS. Why else would they restrict its use otherwise?

The problem with their approach, besides being utterly stupid, is that it just ends up drawing even more criticism over FSR when it is the only upscaling option available, e.g. The Callisto Protocol, Star Wars Jedi: Survivor and Resident Evil 4 where FSR was criticised for being sub-par in quality, especially in motion. When XeSS, FSR and DLSS are available then generally FSR gets a pass because people have more choices. Heck, even AMD GPU owners could use XeSS if it was available and they didn't like FSR.

AMD are idiots and personally I would never buy any of their products, CPU or GPU.

 

[01011001]

The problem with their approach, besides being utterly stupid, is that it just ends up drawing even more criticism over FSR when it is the only upscaling option available. When XeSS, FSR and DLSS are available then generally FSR gets a pass because people have more choices.

agreed. if all 3 are present then FSR2 is seen as the really nice alternative for AMD and Nvidia GTX users. if it's the only reconstruction option for no apparent reason, then it's instantly a bummer since better alternatives exist.

so every time a game has only FSR2 people will shit on the technology, making things worse for AMD.

 

[roosnam1980]

 

[damidu]

this was always pretty obvious, when even modders can add support.
just your scummy amd shenanigans.
not paying a penny for a game without dlss support.

 

[LakeOf9]

Ya I agree. I honestly blame amd for their restrictive licensing agreements and deals

 

[SlimySnake]

Didn't we already know this already?

AMD and NVIDIA both use anti-consumer practices to get people to buy their products over the competition but AMD are even worse because FSR can be used on NVIDIA and Intel GPUs anyway so by prohibiting the use of XeSS and DLSS in their sponsored games they aren't suddenly going to get people buying their GPUs. The more likely truth is that they have no confidence in their software so they do not want FSR being compared unfavourably to XeSS and DLSS. Why else would they restrict its use otherwise?

The problem with their approach, besides being utterly stupid, is that it just ends up drawing even more criticism over FSR when it is the only upscaling option available, e.g. The Callisto Protocol, Star Wars Jedi: Survivor and Resident Evil 4 where FSR was criticised for being sub-par in quality, especially in motion. When XeSS, FSR and DLSS are available then generally FSR gets a pass because people have more choices. Heck, even AMD GPU owners could use XeSS if it was available and they didn't like FSR.

AMD are idiots and personally I would never buy any of their products, CPU or GPU.

What sucks even more is that games are still using FSR 1.0 like FF16 and it really hurts their IQ.

Star Wars was using FSR2.0, not the latest 2.2 version which cleans up the IQ. It is shocking that AMD sponsored titles dont even use the latest AMD tech.

RE4 had an awful FSR implementation too. one of the worst Image Quality i have ever seen in a game.

 

[Fake]

What sucks even more is that games are still using FSR 1.0 like FF16 and it really hurts their IQ.

Star Wars was using FSR2.0, not the latest 2.2 version which cleans up the IQ. It is shocking that AMD sponsored titles dont even use the latest AMD tech.

RE4 had an awful FSR implementation too. one of the worst Image Quality i have ever seen in a game.

With make me wonder why they choose to use the outdated version instead of the lastest if is that easy.

FSR 2.2 could make a big difference to FF16. Or at least increase the minor resolution scaler to 900p instead of 720p.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

When you see AMD or Nvidia announcing that they're a development partner of a certain studio's game, now you know why certain features of the competing IHV's product are missing on those games.

This should surprise no-one.

 

[SlimySnake]

With make me wonder why they choose to use the outdated version instead of the lastest if is that easy.

FSR 2.2 could make a big difference to FF16. Or at least increase the minor resolution scaler to 900p instead of 720p.

FSR2.2 has a bigger GPU overhead than FSR1.0. Thats probably why

 

[M1chl]

I was saying this, was called idiot, so this feels good. Nixxes have amazing people, back in KC: D time they helped us significantly.

 

[Clear]

"All three APIs are so similar nowadays, there's really no excuse."

So why does FSR lag behind XeSS and DLSS in image quality and performance?

Because API's being similar doesn't mean that results are the same, just that the inputs/outputs used to patch it in are comparable.

 

[Fake]

FSR2.2 has a bigger GPU overhead than FSR1.0. Thats probably why

In the Cyberpunk case was implemented FSR 2.0, so the DLC will be fully supported by 2.0.

I gonna look right now to the 2.2 documentation.

 

[GymWolf]

A dude on reeee had the best way to put into words this situation:


I wonder how much AMD paid just to make people dislike them?

 

[SlimySnake]

I was saying this, was called idiot, so this feels good. Nixxes have amazing people, back in KC: D time they helped us significantly.

What's the dev LOE on something like this? Like just the engineering work. No QA testing or anything like that. I am wondering if its as simple as calling an API and passing in some parameters. I think Cerny mentioned that to get a PS4 Pro SKU working, it took one engineer a few weeks to get it running natively on the PS4 Pro. If Nvidia has provided documentation for their APIs, i would imagine its probably one devs work for a 10-20 days to integrate DLSS into their rendering pipelines. The modders for RE4 had it working within days so im wondering if its just a couple of days of work but the devs dont want to waste those few days doing something that they will have to allocate QA resources into.

Would the dev have to insert these APIs in hundreds of different places in the code or just a few spots or maybe even one? Is it really just that simple of a plug-in?

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

"All three APIs are so similar nowadays, there's really no excuse."

So why does FSR lag behind XeSS and DLSS in image quality and performance?

API = application programming interface.

He's saying that the implementation in code is similar. Not the functional algorithms thereof.

 

[GymWolf]

Temporal upscalers are all about performance optimization.

Do you realize that modders on their spare time add these features a couple of days after the game release, right?

 

[Buggy Loop]

"All three APIs are so similar nowadays, there's really no excuse."

So why does FSR lag behind XeSS and DLSS in image quality and performance?

They all use the motion vectors that have been prevalent in majority of games for the past >5 years where any form of TAA is implemented.

What you do with those motion vectors to upscale is up to how you build those upscaling modules. How you handle the nearest vectors, what matrix, will affect the jitter cancelling, which that's also where the AI solutions come in to have better predictability, removing the correlation errors and you would have less temporal ghosting, etc. All that can be done without AI solution but, they clearly perform better as of now.

So basically, they all use the same input, goes into a box, different output.

 

[M1chl]

What's the dev LOE on something like this? Like just the engineering work. No QA testing or anything like that. I am wondering if its as simple as calling an API and passing in some parameters. I think Cerny mentioned that to get a PS4 Pro SKU working, it took one engineer a few weeks to get it running natively on the PS4 Pro. If Nvidia has provided documentation for their APIs, i would imagine its probably one devs work for a 10-20 days to integrate DLSS into their rendering pipelines. The modders for RE4 had it working within days so im wondering if its just a couple of days of work but the devs dont want to waste those few days doing something that they will have to allocate QA resources into.

Would the dev have to insert these APIs in hundreds of different places in the code or just a few spots or maybe even one? Is it really just that simple of a plug-in?

This is even easier, basically one guy can do it in like a 3 days worth of work with DLSS, I would say 4 for FSR 2.0 and not really get into the XeSS stuff yet. You just basically have to give it your data, set up something which it will trip it off, select settings best for your type of game and so on. Most of the time mentioned is testing.

This is simpler than something like direct storage, because there you have to create some helper for loading data and then obviously use it everywhere where you load data. And this is the part where generally the code is messy, you are using old ass authoring tools, so it has some random ass compression, where you not really getting data any faster, since the decompression is the bottleneck and so on.

Metal FX, which is my jam right now, isn't this mature sadly and yes you can have it in the latest UE5.2, but for other projects, it is quite a ordeal to enable it. But it is new, so that's expected.

 

[simpatico]

I hope modders can figure it out. Or even Nvidia find a way to add it to the control panel.

 

[SlimySnake]

This is even easier, basically one guy can do it in like a 3 days worth of work with DLSS, I would say 4 for FSR 2.0 and not really get into the XeSS stuff yet. You just basically have to give it your data, set up something which it will trip it off, select settings best for your type of game and so on. Most of the time mentioned is testing.

This is simpler than something like direct storage, because there you have to create some helper for loading data and then obviously use it everywhere where you load data. And this is the part where generally the code is messy, you are using old ass authoring tools, so it has some random ass compression, where you not really getting data any faster, since the decompression is the bottleneck and so on.

Metal FX, which is my jam right now, isn't this mature sadly and yes you can have it in the latest UE5.2, but for other projects, it is quite a ordeal to enable it. But it is new, so that's expected.

Interesting. Thanks for the explanation.

And yeah, as soon as I saw modders add DLSS within days, I figured it was something simple. Again, its probably the testing which increases the scope of things and they would rather have that time spent fixing bugs elsewhere in the game. I sometimes have to fight my project managers to get 5 days of dev time because their argument is that with testing it becomes 8 days and then if QA finds something, its two business weeks. or half a month.

 

[HerjansEagleFeeder]

You'd think in a free market economy, companies are improving their customers experience when they compete with each other, not making it worse.

 

[ToTTenTranz]

Do you realize that modders on their spare time add these features a couple of days after the game release, right?

Then let them mod it.

Modders don't need to do extensive QA for every new feature, nor will they be met with pitchforks if their mod breaks the game.




Unless you're worried the mods won't provide a decent enough experience.

 

[killatopak]

I dare him to add DLSS to PS5 and XSX.

 

[Hudo]

Just because the engine that Nixxes use has a "trivial wrapper" for that stuff doesn't mean that these things can be added to Bethesda's engine just as trivially. I find that a somewhat knee jerk and poor comment from an engineer. He doesn't know the full story and we don't as well. And I refuse to believe that all the engine devs at Bethesda are idiots.

 

[Zathalus]

Then let them mod it.

Modders don't need to do extensive QA for every new feature, nor will they be met with pitchforks if their mod breaks the game.




Unless you're worried the mods won't provide a decent enough experience.

If you have one temporal upscaler then adding another is not going to require extensive QA or Dev work. They are so similar to each other (by design) that it really is that simple. Especially any sort of Unreal engine game.

And modding is not always a option, some games just cannot be modded.

 

[Ar¢tos]

The "dev friend", sure lol.

Also, "Fuck off n&$&#$&"

Is that word what I think it is?

Careful!
If they are both black you will be the bad guy for impeding their freedom of speech! (or something like that... ask Era for more details, they'll surely know)

 

[01011001]

Then let them mod it.

Modders don't need to do extensive QA for every new feature, nor will they be met with pitchforks if their mod breaks the game

extensive QA yeah sure.

 

[GymWolf]

Then let them mod it.

Modders don't need to do extensive QA for every new feature, nor will they be met with pitchforks if their mod breaks the game.




Unless you're worried the mods won't provide a decent enough experience.

From my understanding after reading this topic, it doesn't look like a complicate task...

 

[Bojji]

Just because the engine that Nixxes use has a "trivial wrapper" for that stuff doesn't mean that these things can be added to Bethesda's engine just as trivially. I find that a somewhat knee jerk and poor comment from an engineer. He doesn't know the full story and we don't as well. And I refuse to believe that all the engine devs at Bethesda are idiots.

Full story is that AMD pays to lock features of their competitors.

If devs implement FSR, there is not much work to implement DLSS and XeSS, this tech is very similar (but quality is different).

 

[yurinka]

No it sounds more like Company A is paying money to keep Company B's reconstruction technique to not being used.

Yep, some GPU companies make deals with a few AAA PC games to make sure they use their own tech, and maybe bundle the game with some of their GPUs, while also blocking the support of rival tech.

It's more common in PC games, because in console ports they already have the money from the console sales.

 

[hlm666]

So Nvidia and AMD are paying studios to not add the other's tech?

At the moment Nvidia isn't blocking anything of AMD. Because they have such an advantage in RT when they sponsor a game they just try get as much RT into it as they can and they don't want to block this from AMD hardware because then they destroy them in the benchmarks. I'm sure Nvidia would be blocking amdlss if the roles were reversed though.

 

[ToTTenTranz]

Full story is that AMD pays to lock features of their competitors.

If AMD does it then either Nvidia does it too but lies about it, or it's the most ineffective ploy ever considering there are a lot more DLSS2-only titles than FSR2-only.

 

[Bojji]

If AMD does it then either Nvidia does it too but lies about it, or it's the most ineffective ploy ever considering there are a lot more DLSS2-only titles than FSR2-only.

Most of dlss2 only games were made before FSR2 was available.

 

[ToTTenTranz]

Most of dlss2 only games were made before FSR2 was available.

Yet a large part of them were not.

Release Date​	Title​	Bundle/Cross Promo Partner​	FSR 1/2 Release​	DLSS Release​
05/30/2023​	System Shock Remake (WCCFTech failed to include in list)	NVIDIA​	None​	05/30/2023​
5/30/2023​	Vampire the Masquerade: Swansong (WCCFTech failed to include in list)	NVIDIA​	None​	5/30/2023​
5/2/2023​	Redfall	NVIDIA​	5/2/2023​	5/2/2023​
4/28/2023​	STAR WARS: Jedi Survivor	AMD​	4/28/2023​	None​
4/21/2023​	Dead Island 2	AMD​	4/21/2023​	None​
3/28/2023​	Last of Us Part 1	AMD​	3/28/2023​	3/28/2023​
3/23/2023​	Resident Evil 4 Remake	AMD​	3/23/2023​	None​
1/24/2023​	Forspoken	AMD​	1/24/2023​	1/24/2023​
12/2/2022​	Callisto Protocol	AMD​	12/2/2022​	None​
12/1/2022​	Marvel's Midnight Suns (DLSS2 + FSR1 only)	NVIDIA​	12/1/2022​	12/1/2022​
11/30/2022​	Warhammer 40K Darktide	NVIDIA​	11/30/2022​	11/30/2022​
10/27/2022​	Sackboy: A Big Adventure (WCCFTech failed to include in list)	NVIDIA​	None​	10/27/2022​
10/19/2022​	Uncharted Legacy of Thieves Collection	AMD​	10/19/2022​	10/19/2022​
10/17/2022​	A Plague Tale: Requiem (WCCFTech failed to include in list)	NVIDIA​	None​	10/17/2022​
10/04/2022​	Dakar Desert Rally(WCCFTech failed to include in list)	NVIDIA​	None​	10/04/2022​
8/23/2022​	Saints Row	AMD​	11/29/2022​	None​
8/12/2022​	Marvel's Spiderman Remastered	NVIDIA​	8/12/2022​	8/12/2022​
5/25/2022​	Sniper Elite 5	AMD​	5/25/2022​	None​

 

[poppabk]

Most of dlss2 only games were made before FSR2 was available.

Not according to PC gaming wiki. Exclusively DLSS titles outweigh FSR titles even after 2 launch. Also Nixxes just threw a bunch of Sony studios under the bus seeing as Returnal launched with only FSR 1 and Sackboy doesn't have FSR at all and the FSR mod is blocked, but they did take the time to implement DLSS 3. Sackboy being an Nvidia sponsored title is purely happenstance though I am sure.

 

[Torrent of Pork]

Last I heard the same guy that made the DLSS mod for Jedi Survivor claims he'll have it up for Starfield by the time the 5 day early release is done.

 

[Fuz]

Seems that the reason why we dont have FSR,DLSS and XeSS on all games is because companies pay to block the technology off:

This is what "journalists" should talk about, instad of the lack of pronouns in games.

 

[poppabk]

This is what "journalists" should talk about, instad of the lack of pronouns in games.

Maybe they could talk to Nixxes about why they haven't shared their trivial wrapper with other Sony studios that are porting to PC?

 

[Buggy Loop]

If AMD does it then either Nvidia does it too but lies about it, or it's the most ineffective ploy ever considering there are a lot more DLSS2-only titles than FSR2-only.

2 years headstart? Hard to process I know