Moon_frogger
Member
well....certainly 30 minutes is enough time to make no more then the most brief, cursory observations. I mean, a couple hours might have been ideal for a preview but 30 minutes is almost worthless if you ask me.
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No Man's Sky previews (03-03-2016)
- Thread starter bombshell
- Start date
well....certainly 30 minutes is enough time to make no more then the most brief, cursory observations. I mean, a couple hours might have been ideal for a preview but 30 minutes is almost worthless if you ask me.
KCroxtonJr
Member
I don't think you can destroy an entire planet from existence, but the example always given about what is shared is something such as a space station being destroyed.
I don't think information on stuff like terrain destruction being shared is clear enough tbh, because if you destroy a mountain, and someone else shows up, shouldn't that be shared between the two players? Not everybody, but the two players at least, otherwise the other player would see you walk into a mountain if you walk in the spot you destroyed.
I could see them doing something like temporary data sharing between players who meet up, which then after you split up the data is stored locally for you but thrown away for the other player.
They NEVER go into real details about the MP aspect, but they have to have put a good amount of thought and time into it if you think about the whole get to the center idea. Maybe at first we will pretty much never see another player, but once people get close to or reach the center, the whole distance thing will no longer be such a problem.
HappyBivouac
Member
This is why the term "procedural generation" makes more sense than "random generation." Especially for No Man's Sky, because the entire, shared universe will have a single seed that will (likely) never change. There's nothing random about it.
Honestly, has it even been confirmed that we can physically see other players in the world? I see people talking about this all the time like it's been confirmed, but I don't recall that ever being explicitly stated. All I've heard is that we can see the impact of other players; named planets, creatures, maybe impacts on the economy, etc.
ichtyander
Member
It's persistent and exactly the same for everyone. I'd say it's somewhat safe to assume all of the building blocks assets and the algorithms are local, but the online server (as well as locally) holds the collective player data and their large scale actions (depleting a planet of resources, destroying a space station, every time you upload your findings to earn money etc.).
So every planet will generate the exact same way, each mountain, tree or pebble should be in the exact same position for everyone, every time a player visits that location, goes to that mountain etc. However Sean's recently mentioned that certain actions will only be stored locally, so you could potentially drill a big hole down to a cave, inscribe your name with a laser on the beach, and it should stay that way the next time you alone visit that location, at least that's how he phrased it. That might mean that, when and if another player visits that hole you made leading to a cave, they'll only see their original local terrain without the hole, which would be a bit silly (he'd see the original player clip through the ground entering the cave and similar shenanigans). Since the game is designed in such a way to pretty much never meet other players, that just might turn out to be true. Or, they might implement some data synching feature where if you start getting near a "slightly modified planet", the game might startt to seamlessly download certain data in the background, either through a p2p system directly from the hole-digging player or from Hello Games' servers if they store some of that data as well. All of those approaches pose unique problems so I'm not really sure how they'll solve that in the end. I'm suspecting they might go for the easiest and cheapest way possible, since they're a small team with a limited budget, so it's probably just local saved data for small stuff (might not even be totaly permanent, as in that message in the beach might disappear after a while), large changes are stored on a server and there'll be some differences (in relation to those user created small changes) between what both players are seeing. But everything else will be generated and seen exactly the same for all players.
Moon_frogger
Member
I must say this game is looking better and better. Still super on the fence about it. Can't wait for reviews and gaf impressions.
Handy Fake
Member
It'll need its own Photo Thread...
Thor Molecules
Member
I remember Sean once saying that the only time we'll know what we look like is when we see another player
I like that they are giving more detail while still keeping a lot of things under wraps. I'm happy with how things are looking because my base expectations of exploring still seem to be the core focus.
One thing I have to say is very disappointing to me from what they revealed is that there will be no Gas Giants in the game. I understand that they didn't want to include planets that the player couldn't land on or interact with meaningfully but I think they missed a huge opportunity in the form of moon systems or even stations in the upper atmosphere of the Gas Giant. Our own Solar System provides examples of how interesting those systems can be and it's a shame we won't see that play out in the game.
Imagine a ringed gas giant like Saturn with three large moons that are explorable and smaller moons that can be exploited for resources. Imagine landing on a world and looking up to see the Gas Giant and it's rings looming above you, affecting the day night cycle profoundly and even giving you glimpses of some of the other nearby moons. I think that could have been amazing and it's a shame they didn't include that possibility.
One thing I have to say is very disappointing to me from what they revealed is that there will be no Gas Giants in the game. I understand that they didn't want to include planets that the player couldn't land on or interact with meaningfully but I think they missed a huge opportunity in the form of moon systems or even stations in the upper atmosphere of the Gas Giant. Our own Solar System provides examples of how interesting those systems can be and it's a shame we won't see that play out in the game.
Imagine a ringed gas giant like Saturn with three large moons that are explorable and smaller moons that can be exploited for resources. Imagine landing on a world and looking up to see the Gas Giant and it's rings looming above you, affecting the day night cycle profoundly and even giving you glimpses of some of the other nearby moons. I think that could have been amazing and it's a shame they didn't include that possibility.
OmegaDL50
Member
Agreed. 30 minutes is a cursory glace.
In terms of the scope this game supposedly achieves. I mean 30 minutes in even Terraria isn't enough to leave your first Planet in the latest beta.
30 Minutes in Minecraft might let you maybe survive a single night, possibly two, but nothing so significant to make any larger impressions on some deep mining exploration.
It's like taking a glass of your favorite drink and using an eyedropper to drip a single drop on your tongue. Barely enough to even get a taste, but a curious enough that you know you want even more.
There is tons of information available, we know about how the game uses procedural generation from weapons, to ship parts, to even planet terrain, and creatures on each planet. We know each planet has Standing Stones and Glyphs that let you learn languages from various alien factions to properly communicate for the sake of trading and building good standing. We know the games audio uses some sort of dynamic system that changes accordingly for each creature or engine hum for each ship. We know the central goal is to get to the center of the universe for something specific.
I want to know more and I guess I simply have to be satisfied until June when I actually play it for myself, but dammit I wish I had more before I play the game.
Check out this article, its a bit dated so things might have changed, but it is one of the most extensive coverages regarding multiplayer.
http://www.gameinformer.com/b/featu...ng-of-no-man-s-sky-as-a-multiplayer-game.aspx
From what I remember reading, the smaller actions you perform on a planet are only saved locally on your PS4/PC. The larger scale actions (such as the extinction of a species; you monster!) will be saved so that when the next person visits that planet, those major changes will be present for them.
My expectations for this game are firmly in check, but nothing that I'm reading or seeing about this game seems impossible. It's just the first time that a studio, especially one as small as Hello Games, has dedicated this much time and effort to try and attempt something of this scale with procedurally generated content.
I love the idea of landing on a planet, cataloging its flora and fauna, and exploring its caves and oceans, and whatever monoliths and landmarks are present. I'm not particularly interested in killing things, or blowing things up. It's just that ever since I was a kid, outer space, science, aliens, and exploration have always been a fascination of mine, and I've always dreamed of a game where I can not just fly through the galaxy on a space ship, but actually find a planet, land on said planet, and explore the planet to my hearts content. This game has the 6 year old in me squeeing with delight, even if it doesn't have an insane number of complex systems and micro-managing. I don't need quest lines and hours of NPC dialogue. Just that vast galaxy filled with potential has me looking forward to it.
I'm particularly interested in exploring the ocean of a strange planet, and seeing what kind of weird creatures live within, or finding a network of underwater caves with rare minerals in it. My wife is also very intrigued and excited by this game. She's a huge fan of games like Minecraft, Terraria, Skyrim, Mass Effect, Fallout, Dragon Age, etc, and she spends hours exploring every nook and cranny of those games. I wish the two of us could co-op together, but that will probably actually come in later updates to the game post launch.
I can easily see myself sitting back on my bed/couch, and just vegging out, losing myself over a weekend after a long work week, and having a blast.
I'm not the biggest VR guy (most of it gives me a headache), but No Man's Sky would be the game that made me go, "Yeah, I need to play this in VR."
It just looks like such a relaxing, intriguing game.
EDIT:
After watching that video that has the raw audio samples, I'm beginning to form some theories about your player character: The game is called No Man's Sky, and it's been reasonably confirmed by Sean that there is no Earth in the game. So I don't think the player character is human at all. The grunts and noises of the player character in that video did not sound human at all. I do think they sounded ape like and strange. That leads me to believe the player character is also another alien species. I think this species originates in the center of the galaxy, and that is why you are trying to get there; to return home. There doesn't need to be a reason why you were stranded on the outskirts of the galaxy. You just are (you can make up a reason), and once you get home, you'll be with more people like you (ie, other player characters, and maybe NPCs of your race). It's simple, but I still think could be a satisfying "conclusion" to the game.
My expectations for this game are firmly in check, but nothing that I'm reading or seeing about this game seems impossible. It's just the first time that a studio, especially one as small as Hello Games, has dedicated this much time and effort to try and attempt something of this scale with procedurally generated content.
I love the idea of landing on a planet, cataloging its flora and fauna, and exploring its caves and oceans, and whatever monoliths and landmarks are present. I'm not particularly interested in killing things, or blowing things up. It's just that ever since I was a kid, outer space, science, aliens, and exploration have always been a fascination of mine, and I've always dreamed of a game where I can not just fly through the galaxy on a space ship, but actually find a planet, land on said planet, and explore the planet to my hearts content. This game has the 6 year old in me squeeing with delight, even if it doesn't have an insane number of complex systems and micro-managing. I don't need quest lines and hours of NPC dialogue. Just that vast galaxy filled with potential has me looking forward to it.
I'm particularly interested in exploring the ocean of a strange planet, and seeing what kind of weird creatures live within, or finding a network of underwater caves with rare minerals in it. My wife is also very intrigued and excited by this game. She's a huge fan of games like Minecraft, Terraria, Skyrim, Mass Effect, Fallout, Dragon Age, etc, and she spends hours exploring every nook and cranny of those games. I wish the two of us could co-op together, but that will probably actually come in later updates to the game post launch.
I can easily see myself sitting back on my bed/couch, and just vegging out, losing myself over a weekend after a long work week, and having a blast.
I'm not the biggest VR guy (most of it gives me a headache), but No Man's Sky would be the game that made me go, "Yeah, I need to play this in VR."
It just looks like such a relaxing, intriguing game.
EDIT:
After watching that video that has the raw audio samples, I'm beginning to form some theories about your player character: The game is called No Man's Sky, and it's been reasonably confirmed by Sean that there is no Earth in the game. So I don't think the player character is human at all. The grunts and noises of the player character in that video did not sound human at all. I do think they sounded ape like and strange. That leads me to believe the player character is also another alien species. I think this species originates in the center of the galaxy, and that is why you are trying to get there; to return home. There doesn't need to be a reason why you were stranded on the outskirts of the galaxy. You just are (you can make up a reason), and once you get home, you'll be with more people like you (ie, other player characters, and maybe NPCs of your race). It's simple, but I still think could be a satisfying "conclusion" to the game.
CarbonFire
Member
I agree that a Gas Giant with a ton of moons would have been cool. However there will be ringed planets in the game, they just haven't shown them off for whatever reason.
Handy Fake
Member
Imagine a ringed planet rising over the horizon of a planet you're busy dicking about on. Magnificent.
KCroxtonJr
Member
Good post, forgot about this article.
This part also just made something click in my mind:
We now know what the cover art is, which does in fact have a human-like character standing in the middle (my avatar
).
I also found this art, which has a similar character in it:
I've always thought that we would be some kind of like, android or something that is related to or created by whatever created the sentinels. The b-roll footage from the latest event gives us our first ever clue, as we can hear what the character sounds like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akDQbRE5yXc&feature=youtu.be&t=13m20s
I guess the helmet could make the voice sound like that, but I think if we were simply humans they wouldn't play coy about what we look like, I mean even in both of the concept arts we only see the character from behind. Interesting stuff to think about, can't wait to find out exactly what is going on.
MADGAME
Member
If the player character's species is relevant to the story, then I feel it should be revealed to the player who or what you are and not be a surprise along the journey. Maybe not before the game releases, but certainly at the start of the game. It would be immersion breaking to play as an intelligent, galaxy-traversing explorer yet not be self-aware of your own species or be surprised by your likeness through the course of play.
If not relevant to the story then I don't think it matters too much.
If not relevant to the story then I don't think it matters too much.
How deep can you dig? Do planets have cores?
Think about it: if the record of something like a tunnel you dug is forever locally stored, you could conceivably dig a tunnel until you run out of explosives, go up to the space station or trading station, restock on ammo, go back, and keep digging.
Think about it: if the record of something like a tunnel you dug is forever locally stored, you could conceivably dig a tunnel until you run out of explosives, go up to the space station or trading station, restock on ammo, go back, and keep digging.
KCroxtonJr
Member
I read/heard in one of the recent previews that there is a limit, and that each planet can have a different limit. Can't remember which one though...
Gozer the Gozerian
Member
I just want planets with cave systems big enough to fly my spaceship through
eyeball_kid
Member
I'm not sure Sean has ever spelled this out exactly. If memory serves, he used the phrase, "10% of the planets will be a utopia", as in, the grassy life-filled planets they've demoed. That's not to say that 90% will be uninhabitable rocks. I don't think they've been clear enough to say for sure.
What Hello's art team is doing is building only the base models. NMS' procedural code then takes those base forms and changes various elements to make the kinds of variants you see in that image. So, there could be base models that look like a deer, a badger, a t-rex, alien slug, etc., and from each of those an infinite amount of variants are generated. I assume something similar is done for the vegetation. Given that there will be hundreds of base forms, I'm not too worried about things getting repetitive.
What is probably persistent locally:
* Planets, including all life on them. Another player would see the same mountain you did. They will not see that you blew a hole in it.
* Galactic map, which is probably generated from the same seed value
What is probably stored in the cloud:
* AI-controlled ships. Sean has said blowing up a space station will be persistent for everyone. I'd also think the economic system is probably centralized in the servers, though Sean says you can play offline so I'm not sure how that would work.
* Factional areas, if these are hand-picked by Hello. Otherwise they're probably generated procedurally like the map is
* Your discoveries
I'm pretty certain it's confirmed that what you do to a planet will NOT be reflected on the same planet for everyone else, because the planet is generated from the seed on your machine. Which throws into question the entire ambient multiplayer aspect.
I only spitballed the planet-destruction idea because that is something a server would be able to easily quantify.
Nice.
We could be ape analogs. Like, created to go and catalog the universe. The Atlas or whatever it's called might be an AI (maybe human descendant) which tries to catalog everything. And to do that it sends little exploration-beings out there. Perhaps we are one of those exploration beings.
Love me some sci fi.
CarbonFire
Member
Right, most planets will likely have at least some POIs. From crashed ships, to supply caches, to alien installations, or even just element-rich deposits ready to be mined. Those could end up being on even the most barren of rocks. I doubt we'll find many entirely barren planets, even if they're devoid of "natural" life.
I think the number of base forms is the biggest question when it comes to the diversity of the wildlife. It's hard to imagine this small team being able to crank out so many different base models, considering each one needs to be rigged and have basic animations applied to it (which obviously get tweaked by the algorithms). But I would love to be wrong about this and to keep discovering new weird and wonderful forms of life for hundreds of hours.
Other than maybe a few easter eggs, I doubt Hello games will be hand-picking the placement of anything in this universe. The Universe they've created is just too massive. To put it in perspective: If this game is wildly, wildly successful, and sells 10 million copies, every single player could still have over 100 BILLION planets all to themselves. Now in reality the chances of finding other players discoveries (or other players) will go up dramatically as we approach the center, and 99.99999% of those planets will never be discovered, but that just represents the scale of the universe we're dealing with. Factions will absolutely be procedurally generated, though they will probably (hopefully) cover a wider swath of space than individual systems.
What is stored on the Atlas database is likely stuff that is easy (and quick) to store. Names, coordinates, and whether it exists or not is a very small amount of data to store about each discovery. Remember, when there isn't a player present at a location, nothing at that location "exists".
Think of it like a sea of math, and we're traveling through it in a bubble. As we travel through this sea, everything that enters the bubble springs up into existence, and then reverts back to raw, static math when we leave. It's highly likely the placement of spaceships and animals will be based on when we arrive at that location. So if we arrive in a system at a certain time, that might be when a fleet is "scheduled" to warp in. But if we arrive an hour later, that fleet might be long gone. If we manage to destroy said fleet, then that fleet would stop existing for other players, and a competing local faction might occupy that system. It is potentially possible that they're doing some sort of limited simulation of conflicts between factions once they are discovered, but it would probably be a pretty rudimentary simulation (who won/lost a particular battle/sector). One thing I'm particularly curious about, and I don't think anyone has asked Sean about: I wonder if it is even possible to hunt a certain faction to extinction? Makes me wonder how many different procedurally-generated factions will be in the game.
Things like economies can be simulated pretty easily on the fly based on what resources are available in the local region. It's possible they may have a more complex, active economic model driving things under the hood, but that remains to be seen.
The big question about saving local content will be "how", and "how much". Individual dead animals are easy to track, because again, just location, and status (plus the saved configuration of parts that make up that animal). However if we're to believe we can actually cause the extinction of a particular species, then the quantity and locations of animals on a particular planet would need to be created by the procedural algorithm and stored/tracked. Depending on how many animals are on each planet, that could be a lot of data to keep track of.
Storing terrain deformation information is an even bigger issue, because saves sizes can get out of hand quickly if you save everything. It's possible they could be storing deformation data programmatically (ie recording explosion information to be redrawn later), which would be cheaper to store, but would have the potential problem of having to be "drawn in" when you get near it. If the deformation is extensive, it might create some nasty pop-in as the game has to recreate the huge network of craters you left on a location.
The questions about how this game works "under the hood" are the most interesting to me. Hopefully we get a few more answers before release.
If you even stored only 1 byte for each entire planet, that'd be over 16,000 petabytes to store everything. When you consider you can discover species and have them tagged as discovered by you - surely there are massively fewer species than planets?
It'd certainly make it impossible to store changes you make to the landscape etc.
It'd certainly make it impossible to store changes you make to the landscape etc.
Icyflamez96
Member
Do you guys think a thread should be made for the raw footage
OmegaDL50
Member
We know there are factions and communicating with these factions by either trading or passing a speech check with that learned language thing.
However I wonder if there are counter factions.
Say the Korvacs are bitter enemies with another Faction.
What if by associating and building your reputation with the Korvacs, this other rival faction sees you as a member of the Korvacs and they have a certain threat level towards you.
Probably when you first start you are neutral to everyone, and your relationship adjusts depending on who you interact with.
Would be interesting to build up a rapport and suddenly find yourself being attacked and you don't understand why. It would add a layer of complexity on who you should and should not work with.
I mean what if Korvacs specialize in a particular mineral resource, but their enemies have something you need to get further, creating a risk vs reward scenario.
Maybe I'm looking too much into this.
However I wonder if there are counter factions.
Say the Korvacs are bitter enemies with another Faction.
What if by associating and building your reputation with the Korvacs, this other rival faction sees you as a member of the Korvacs and they have a certain threat level towards you.
Probably when you first start you are neutral to everyone, and your relationship adjusts depending on who you interact with.
Would be interesting to build up a rapport and suddenly find yourself being attacked and you don't understand why. It would add a layer of complexity on who you should and should not work with.
I mean what if Korvacs specialize in a particular mineral resource, but their enemies have something you need to get further, creating a risk vs reward scenario.
Maybe I'm looking too much into this.
MADGAME
Member
Fair enough, but even if true the fact remains that from a planetary exploration perspective all they have been showing is the vast minority 10% life-filled worlds.
CarbonFire
Member
I think they're just banking on discoveries remaining manageable. Because it's literally impossible to discover every planet in the game through the normal course of play.
I would read a book about how this game works, their technology is so fascinating to me.
Well they only have to store things that people discover. If the game sells 2 million copies and every player named 1000 things that might still only be a dozen or so GBs for example.
More_Badass
Member
But the footage shown isnt too show off the planetary exploration. It's to highlight specific aspects like creature types, weather, sentinels, etc.
Dee Dah Dave
Member
I watched a video yesterday where Sean scanned some fish and said "this is a fairly common species so isn't worth many units"
It's safe to say there's some 'repeats'.
More_Badass
Member
Think he meant common on that planet
Icyflamez96
Member
This.
There was a video trailer that showed a flying fish thing on two different planets, but it was near a portal so I think that was implying that creatures can travel through portals themselves.
Or it was just played up for the trailer or something. With how their procedural generation works, we shouldn't be seeing the exact same species on multiple planets unless there is some sort of "gameplay" reason (like animals being able to go through portals).
KCroxtonJr
Member
Yeah I know that things are generated locally, but as I said I wasn't talking about sharing the data with EVERYBODY. I'm talking about this:
Sharing certain data with only players in your "lobby", temporarily. Once they leave, all the data that was shared could be thrown out, for the other players anyways. If nothing is shared, how could meeting other players even work without some very odd things happening, such as shooting at invisible creatures, floating over a giant hole in the ground, or even another player flying right through a giant spaceship?
It would have to be something like seeing other players ghosts phase in and out in a souls game if nothing is shared, which would be...odd.
MADGAME
Member
My bad, replace "planetary exploration" with "planets". They are consistently showing planets that we will see 10% of the time. I understand why he is doing it, but If we're going to see something else 90% of the time, start showing us that.
Dee Dah Dave
Member
He didn't say so but yeah could be. Plus to me it could make sense that there are basically the same life forms on other similar planets.
I have seen other videos where he has spoke of both animal and ship varieties in "hundreds of thousands of". Which is far less than planets.
Who knows!
RandomExpletive
Member
Would be pretty cool if we could eventually head up a faction. Roaming the skies, saving the Galaxy
Fushichou187
Member
Would be pretty cool if we could eventually head up a faction. Roaming the skies, saving the Galaxy
But (most) factions are essentially other races that throw you informational or technological bones. I can see a good or great standing with one paying dividends in terms of gear, making your exploration easier, but heading one a la traditional faction throughlines we are accustomed to in RPGs seems unlikely, no?
My body can only take so much readiness.
I looked up the credits for Burnout 3 and it looks like Sean was just a lowly programmer.
Icyflamez96
Member
woah calm down guys ok ok i'll do it when i get home sheesh PATIENCE
More_Badass
Member
Wait, the raw footage is out? I find it when I searched
You sure? I looked online and saw him as tech lead of Burnout 3 and lead gameplay designer of Black. And quite a few sites and articles describe him as the technical lead of Burnout and Black
Didn't think about that. We haven't gotten much reference for how big features like mountains, caves, or forests can get.
Fushichou187
Member
Some of the sound design makes me think of Proteus. I love Proteus. NMS can't come soon enough.
Icyflamez96
Member
Yeah this is the main thing I'm worried about. Everything we've seen looks so small, like, when I like at sci-fi artwork (even a lot of NMS concept art), the landscapes feel so huge and grand. I don't really get that feeling with anything I've seen from NMS so far. I'm sure the environments can get bigger than what we've seen, but I wonder how much. I also wonder if technical limitations could prevent that too.
MADGAME
Member
Limited Edition on Amazon right now...get it while the gettin's good
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B01CINIAKS/?tag=neogaf0e-20
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B01CINIAKS/?tag=neogaf0e-20
While they haven't shown off any COMPLETELY barren planets, they have shown icy planets, and desert planets without much discernible vegetation.
Now, again - these are from varying builds of the game and it's impossible to actually predict exactly what kinds of planets you're going to run into in the game, because each person is likely to have different experiences -but these are not "garden" worlds lush with vegetation and life.
It hasn't been confirmed, but probably not. Though I do have screencaps from various trailers that show different biomes on the same planet - this may just be different builds of the game or one planet tweaked with a different seed for trailer purposes.
I think they said most planets will be one-biome. It's to keep people exploring pretty much.
That means we won't see things like tidally-locked or eyeball planets. I've found quite a few eyeball planets in Space Engine and they're quite interesting -- one side Earth-like in perpetual daylight, the other half a massive glacier in perpetual night.