Support NeoGAF

[kingkitty]

NK did give up their nuclear program at one point only for the US to renege on the agreements made.

That was then, this is now.

In 2014, there's no way we're gonna have peaceful, cooperative relations with a crazy, hermit country that refuses to stop their nuclear program. North Korea might have bad feelings about the 90s, but they'll have to get over it if they want the international community to play ball.

 

[reckless]

NK did give up their nuclear program at one point only for the US to renege on the agreements made.

They were still enriching uranium before the agreement completely fell apart.

 

[Leatherface]

NK did give up their nuclear program at one point only for the US to renege on the agreements made.

lol what color is the sky in your world?

 

[boiled goose]

Lots of interesting discussions in the thread.
It is good to see people trying to engage.

I disagree with calling other countries "most evil regimes everr" while western states have institutional murder, political persecution and other atrocities as well. I don't subscribe to this "who is the most true evil" notion.
And you yourself asked for an honest debate.

I agreed the language was hyperbolic. I also agree other countries have issues, but equating them is also a mistake. In western countries, the problems seem to stem from the pull of many forces, some amoral, some nefarious, some good, etc. It emerges as a more systematic problem that arises from the current incentives and laws, in North Korea however, the problems seem to be more clearly regime directed. 'Who is really incharge' at least, seems less ambiguous.

And moreover, 'well these other countries are bad too', is not honest arguing. We can criticize all of them separately on their own merits, and we can also talk about how other countries' polices affect NK, but this thread was about NK. If NK is criticized, let's talk about that without bringing in irrelevant points.

it is not an economic issue. the more people go, the more likely cultural exchange is. the more contact between them and us, the better. the more people that visit and come back and say 'hey, here's a new element that we haven't talked about before,' the more human the story becomes.

listening to media stories of the regime's brutality leads to fear and an 'i'm not going there, i don't want any part of that' mentality, which only isolates the country further.

Yes, this is why I have repeatedly said the tours' net outcome is not easy to discern.

It is a model that has worked in Cuba.
Expansion of tourism requires the expansion of the tourist industry which requires the beautification of expanded locations and the employment of people to work there.
.

Interesting idea. Force the hand economically if you will. Make the 'trickle down' big enough.

You'd be hard pressed to get me to believe that even Guantanamo Bay is as bad as a camp where they beat children to death in front of their families for stealing kernels of corn.

Yes this is important to keep in mind. As horrendous as some things are, we know of much worse things that actually happen in NK in an overt and government sanctioned way. Again, let's talk about each problem on their own merits. No need for fallacious equivocations.

That was then, this is now.

In 2014, there's no way we're gonna have peaceful, cooperative relations with a crazy, hermit country that refuses to stop their nuclear program. North Korea might have bad feelings about the 90s, but they'll have to get over it if they want the international community to play ball.

See I take a more middle of the ground approach.
The NK apologists are honestly a little bit absurd IMO, but we do have to work in both our best interests and hopefully the interests of the people of NK as well.

Refusing to engage just because 'reasons' might not be productive. I don't really care about the ego of these respective countries or 'looking weak'. We should be willing to do what is likely to work. Now that NK is more open than ever, we have seen that they are obviously messed up, but also surprisingly childish. A little acknowledgement and attention 'might' go a long way. That said, I might be being too optimistic.

 

[shaki123]

The US haven't stopped their nuclear program and they threw bombs twice. I trust NK more then the US to be honest.

 

[amm]

Nice post, OP. Thanks for sharing pictures.

 

[boiled goose]

The US haven't stopped their nuclear program and they threw bombs twice. I trust NK more then the US to be honest.

If you are serious, that is crazy.

That said I do understand a lot of the sentiment of distrust on the US and major western powers at the moment. It is definitely an issue that has to be addressed. The governments of these countries have in some ways consolidated too much power and removed too much of their accountability to their citizens.

The fact that you even feel this way though is a reflection of the effects of the current foreign policy of the US. (the use of the bombs in the past is a completely different context in a completely different world from today, so pretty much a completely separate discussion IMO)

 

[Supermanisdead]

The US haven't stopped their nuclear program and they threw bombs twice. I trust NK more then the US to be honest.

This has to be trolling...

 

[Zuhzuhzombie!!]

This has to be trolling...

We were close to threatening to nuke Korea and came seriously close to nuking Vietnam.

People don't trust the US and for very good reasons.

They were still enriching uranium before the agreement completely fell apart.

The "proof" that we had that they were still enriching uranium has been disproved.

Fact of the matter is that the US did not fulfill its obligations, mainly due to the GOP.

That was then, this is now.

In 2014, there's no way we're gonna have peaceful, cooperative relations with a crazy, hermit country that refuses to stop their nuclear program. North Korea might have bad feelings about the 90s, but they'll have to get over it if they want the international community to play ball.

That isn't how negotiations work.

 

[MormaPope]

Guys, Nazi Germany gets such a terrible rep. I mean, jesus christ, the Germans were so poor and hungry after World War 1, and what did the world do? We let them starve and writhe in poverty. All Hitler really wanted was a united, strong, healthy Germany and the world spat right in his face. WE caused their anguish, WE fueled the holocaust. They were simply trying to rebuilt themselves due to adversity.

Yeah, concentration camps and death camps are bad, but look at the Japanese camps in the US during that same time period! Not to mention we tortured people then. How can we judge when also so amoral things? All things are equal in my mind. We also nuked Japan. WE NUKED JAPAN. If anything those concentration camps aren't nearly as bad as that, at least those Jewish people were given a chance in life.

Western countries not supporting and providing support for the H. R. Giger version of Disney World really shows how immoral we really are.

 

[DrSlek]

break into your hotel room

Does it count if it's government agents gaining entry to bug the room and go through your stuff?

 

[kingkitty]

We were close to threatening to nuke Korea and came seriously close to nuking Vietnam.

People don't trust the US and for very good reasons.

lol but we didn't nuke Korea or Vietnam. It's funny there are actually people out there besides nutty Korean dictators that honestly trusts North Korea over America when it comes to handling nuclear weapons.

That isn't how negotiations work.

This is how it's going to work if North Korea wants to not be a shithole. Look at Iran, the west is slowly trying to ease tensions, but it all comes with the priority that they limit their nuclear program.

 

[Chittagong]

Some really quality discussion and debate here, I really appreciate it - also the comments where my choice to travel is criticised.

Some reflection:

- On different regimes doing horrible things to people: Trying to compare atrocities and human rights violations done by different countries or regimes doesn't really work. Different examples can be dug up to support arguments either way. The argument becomes lop sided when for some regimes we can never know the worst of what is going on.

- That Mark Twain quote is my philosophy of life. I have been this year to North Korea, Cabo Verde and Greenland, three beautiful but isolated, and to different degrees troubled destinations, each with their own small glimmers of hope for the future. I think I have developed a deeper appreciation for the positive impacts of information society, global trade and simple logistics of transport, and have a broader, more nuanced perspective of the world. Is it misery travel? I would hope not - I went to see things I thought were fascinating and beautiful, and have deep hope to see all these nations do better in the future.

- On travel safety in North Korea: My understanding is that travel to North Korea is one of the safest in the world for the tourist. No crime against tourists and no traffic accidents (because no cars on roads). The reason people feel it's dangerous are the high profile cases where something has (or hasn't) happened and the travellers have got locked up for life. The chances of it happening are minimal but the consequences are so severe that many weigh the risk too big. For the record, I would not dare to travel to ISIS regions, warring African countries and feel uneasy about many South American countries but wasn't too concerned about North Korea.

- On ethics of travel to North Korea: I can see both sides of the argument and understand the point of view condemning it as support to the regime, even where I sided with the other side of the argument - bringing in as much external influence as possible (even if it's not much).

- On the prospects of North Korea: I have a keen sense that the current closed system can't last much longer. The gap between the information society of the surrounding world and North Korea grows bigger all the time. With cities like Nairobi evolving into tech and startup hot beds, North Korea will be forced to open up to get the modern skills requires from a nation to remain independent. This opening up will bring positive change.

Does it count if it's government agents gaining entry to bug the room and go through your stuff?

We were indirectly told to assume this would be the case. Seeing how strapped for resources the state was I had a hard time believing they would be very competent in it.

 

[DarkFlow]

My wife is Chinese, my father in law's work takes him to North Korea from time to time, a good friend of mine on FB does humanitarian work in and analysis of North Korea.

If the Liberal Arts were not such a massive money pit in the USA I'd have definitely gone into history and poli sci in college, but the job market for that was dead even when I was in school and has only gotten much worse since then.

I own and have read over a hundred books on world history, individual country histories, socialist and anti colonial movements, etc. Marxist leaning and use a Marxist interpretation of history as well.

I'd do it for a living if there was a living doing it.

 

[tnaden]

This thread is crazy.

That's all.

Have fun!

 

[shaki123]

This has to be trolling...

no

 

[whatever77]

I wouldn't have problem with this thread if the title is

"North Korea tourism |OT|, Trying to Kill Kim Jung Un with a Poisoned Handshake"

 

[Coriolanus]

That was then, this is now.

In 2014, there's no way we're gonna have peaceful, cooperative relations with a crazy, hermit country that refuses to stop their nuclear program. North Korea might have bad feelings about the 90s, but they'll have to get over it if they want the international community to play ball.

You should have a look at the recent negotiations between Iran and the US.

See how well that went.

See why.

Then understand that the whole bloody world watched.

 

[Mr. RHC]

Guys, Nazi Germany gets such a terrible rep. I mean, jesus christ, the Germans were so poor and hungry after World War 1, and what did the world do? We let them starve and writhe in poverty. All Hitler really wanted was a united, strong, healthy Germany and the world spat right in his face. WE caused their anguish, WE fueled the holocaust. They were simply trying to rebuilt themselves due to adversity.

Yeah, concentration camps and death camps are bad, but look at the Japanese camps in the US during that same time period! Not to mention we tortured people then. How can we judge when also so amoral things? All things are equal in my mind. We also nuked Japan. WE NUKED JAPAN. If anything those concentration camps aren't nearly as bad as that, at least those Jewish people were given a chance in life.

Western countries not supporting and providing support for the H. R. Giger version of Disney World really shows how immoral we really are.

Now this is a strawman, but carry on. Nobody in this thread is defending what North Korea is doing but again, we are talking about if someone should visit North Korea or if, like some drive by posts would suggest, because it basically is Nazi Germany nobody should go there. Should North Korea be invaded instead, potentially risking more people's life? Did Germany recover because it was bombed in World War II? Good contribution, anyways. I'm looking forward to this discussion. *not*

'Who is really incharge' at least, seems less ambiguous.

And moreover, 'well these other countries are bad too', is not honest arguing. We can criticize all of them separately on their own merits, and we can also talk about how other countries' polices affect NK, but this thread was about NK. If NK is criticized, let's talk about that without bringing in irrelevant points.

The NK apologists are honestly a little bit absurd IMO, but we do have to work in both our best interests and hopefully the interests of the people of NK as well.

We can not criticize countries like North Korea seperately if we are talking about how and what the future of the country will be and if visiting the country is fueling a death trap for thousands of people suffering under this regime. Countries do not live in bubbles, even if OP and some suggested as much.

@Chittagong and co, North Korea does not exist in the past, it is embedded in current affairs, influenced by powers far greater than what this little nation can do.

Can you say for sure how tourist money is used, or are people only arguing conjectures?
If this really is about principle, not visting, not aiding financially any regimes then your ideology is probably "For the greater good". Bring forth solutions then to enforce the greater good.

So maybe let's get back to a fundemental question to this thread:
Will tourism fuel regime activities to repress the masses, and do you think that this is something that should not exist? Is this a question of principle? Then again, why do you not apply these principles to other places as well?

 

[kingkitty]

You should have a look at the recent negotiations between Iran and the US.

uh compared to earlier Iran relations, this is pretty good progress.

 

[Zuhzuhzombie!!]

This is how it's going to work if North Korea wants to not be a shithole. Look at Iran, the west is slowly trying to ease tensions, but it all comes with the priority that they limit their nuclear program.

NK is in a much stronger position now than when it was in the 90s and early 2000s. NK limited their nuclear program in exchange for aid and the cooperative building of a power plant and additional non nuclear fuel. The US reneged on its side, assuming that if we stalled long enough the regime would collapse. Consequently, NK did not fulfill their end of the bargain. The US then restricted even more food aid and access to NK in an attempt to literally starve them

That was when NK was in the middle of an economic crisis. Now they're not, they've made some economic reforms, dismantled the "Stalinist" economic structure and are adopting a market approach. They're much less at risk of a repeat from the 90s, have shown that they have enough political power to come out of a crisis on top.

If the ultimate goal is to make things better in North Korea then the US needs to negotiate in good faith and uphold its end of the bargain.

We can not criticize countries like North Korea seperately if we are talking about how and what the future of the country will be and if visiting the country is fueling a death trap for thousands of people suffering under this regime. Countries do not live in bubbles

An essential concept that most people don't understand in the slightest.

Will tourism fuel regime activities to repress the masses, and do you think that this is something that should not exist? Is this a question of principle? Then again, why do you not apply these principles to other places as well?

If North Korea is an antisocial "hermit" that can't manage itself properly, I don't see how reinforcing its isolation and reinforcing its negative view of the world is an actual help in the slightest.

 

[onken]

As a side note, I find the girls in DPRK the most beautiful in Asia - go figure.

lol umm ok.

 

[kingkitty]

If the ultimate goal is to make things better in North Korea then the US needs to negotiate in good faith and uphold its end of the bargain.

North Korea is still a wreck, and I'm dandy to help them out if they're again willing to dismantle their nuclear program.

And stop their concentration camps, but baby steps.

 

[Izayoi]

The US haven't stopped their nuclear program and they threw bombs twice. I trust NK more then the US to be honest.

no

I honestly don't even know what to say. NK apologists defy all logic and reasoning.

Guys, Nazi Germany gets such a terrible rep. I mean, jesus christ, the Germans were so poor and hungry after World War 1, and what did the world do? We let them starve and writhe in poverty. All Hitler really wanted was a united, strong, healthy Germany and the world spat right in his face. WE caused their anguish, WE fueled the holocaust. They were simply trying to rebuilt themselves due to adversity.

Yeah, concentration camps and death camps are bad, but look at the Japanese camps in the US during that same time period! Not to mention we tortured people then. How can we judge when also so amoral things? All things are equal in my mind. We also nuked Japan. WE NUKED JAPAN. If anything those concentration camps aren't nearly as bad as that, at least those Jewish people were given a chance in life.

Western countries not supporting and providing support for the H. R. Giger version of Disney World really shows how immoral we really are.

:lol

I love you.

 

[Zuhzuhzombie!!]

And stop their concentration camps, but baby steps.

Then maybe you'll be glad to know that they've been reforming their prison system and methods of political repression. I think they've cut their number of political prisons in half and no longer have familial punishment.

 

[kingkitty]

Then maybe you'll be glad to know that they've been reforming their prison system and methods of political repression. I think they've cut their number of political prisons in half and no longer have familial punishment.

I'd like to see a source on that, not that I'm denying your claims. Reform is a good step, but I wouldn't feel glad. These camps continue to be an unacceptable abuse of human rights.

 

[IAmtheFMan]

Then maybe you'll be glad to know that they've been reforming their prison system and methods of political repression. I think they've cut their number of political prisons in half and no longer have familial punishment.

Source? Because talking to my friends who have been involved in LiNK who've helped refugees, this does not seem to be the case.

But lol, biased group, right?

 

[Zuhzuhzombie!!]

http://www.nknews.org/2013/09/how-human-rights-in-north-korea-are-gradually-improving/

In early September David Hawk published his latest work on the North Korean prison camp system. Hawk is the best-known English-speaking authority on this subject, having documented the North Korean political camps for nearly 15 years. His new report is called “North Korea’s Hidden Gulag: Interpreting Reports of Changes in the Prison Camps,” and it deals with the recent changes in the North Korean camps.

The major conclusions of the study might surprise many – but not the present author and my colleagues. Having analyzed the assorted material, Hawk came to the conclusion that over the last decade or so there have been significant reductions in the scale of the North Korean “camp universe.” In the 1990s, the number of prisoners was estimated at 150,000-200,000, while the current number appears to be much lower, some 80,000-120,000. Two large camps (Nos. 22 and 18, the latter being the oldest of all North Korean camps, in operation since 1958) have been recently closed.

...

From the available anecdotal evidence it seems clear that in the last 15 or 20 years the general trend has been a lessening of repression. This trend includes the abandonment of the family responsibility principle.

...

However, from the mid-1990s, things began to change. With increasing frequency, observers began to come across cases where a political criminal was arrested, but his family was allowed to remain free – an impossibly liberal attitude by the standards of Kim Il Sung-era. Occasionally, even the families of prominent North Korean refugee political activists escaped prison – at least in some cases, the activists in question were even clandestinely sending their family money, thus ensuring that their family would live better than the North Korean average.

...

According to the same sources, around 2003-04, a new set of instructions prescribed that the principle should only be applied in very special cases. However, it appears that those arrested earlier because they were family members of political criminals were not immediately released. Therefore, this liberalization was quite limited. Nonetheless, it was clearly a form of liberalization, and the near-complete abandonment of the principle is bound to have a significant impact on the number of people in prison camps.

The partial abolition of the family responsibility principle is merely one of a number of changes indicating the increasing relaxation of state terror. Another area in which liberalization is clear and undeniable is in the treatment of border-crossers caught in China or en route to China. Contrary to what is frequently claimed, most apprehended would-be border-crossers are treated with leniency, and those caught usually get away with just a few months detention (one year seems to be a maximum possible sentence for the average border-crosser). In most cases, even people who have been apprehended for the second or third time get away lightly. Only those known to have been in contact with foreigners – especially South Koreans – or Christian missionaries face lengthy imprisonment nowadays.

 

[kingkitty]

I've actually read bits and pieces about the camp closures, but the report itself is pretty interesting. In the report it seems like Camp 22 and Camp 18 were the ones there were shut down.

A possibility mentioned in the report is that Camp 22 may have shut down because so many prisoners died from starvation.

In the report they say Camp 18 is special because prisoners can actually leave. Whole villages can be released to "freedom'. It's something that's been done since at least the mid 80s. Seems like Camp 18 did their final village release sometime in 2006. Although a small group of prisoners were not given their freedom.

The report also looked at the new 80-120 thousandish number. One possible reason for this lower number is the death rate, which might be higher than the rate of new prisoners added. This high death rate could be due to executions, malnutrition, diseases, and work accidents.

The report also says it's uncertain if familial punishment has lessened. And the article from NK News doesn't say it's been removed.

If the report is legitimate, I have no faith this is really "reform". Those camp closures don't look like a progressive move. While we don't have concrete information, it could that Camp 18 released most of their prisoners by 2006, not a recent act. And Camp 22 might have lost most of their people to starvation. The overall lower prison popoulation could be due to a high death rate. And you said they no longer have familial punishment, which isn't supported by the report.

 

[Log4Girlz]

http://www.nknews.org/2013/09/how-human-rights-in-north-korea-are-gradually-improving/

They are so progressive. If only the United States would learn a few lessons from their mercy.

They don't even arrest whole families anymore.

 

[Jenov]

Guys, Nazi Germany gets such a terrible rep. I mean, jesus christ, the Germans were so poor and hungry after World War 1, and what did the world do? We let them starve and writhe in poverty. All Hitler really wanted was a united, strong, healthy Germany and the world spat right in his face. WE caused their anguish, WE fueled the holocaust. They were simply trying to rebuilt themselves due to adversity.

Yeah, concentration camps and death camps are bad, but look at the Japanese camps in the US during that same time period! Not to mention we tortured people then. How can we judge when also so amoral things? All things are equal in my mind. We also nuked Japan. WE NUKED JAPAN. If anything those concentration camps aren't nearly as bad as that, at least those Jewish people were given a chance in life.

Western countries not supporting and providing support for the H. R. Giger version of Disney World really shows how immoral we really are.

lol
and wtf @ trusting NK with nukes and using the end of fucking WWII as the reason.

 

[Zuhzuhzombie!!]

The report also says it's uncertain if familial punishment has lessened. And the article from NK News doesn't say it's been removed.

With increasing frequency, observers began to come across cases where a political criminal was arrested, but his family was allowed to remain free

Anecdotal, but everything we know about North Korea is anecdotal.

The prison population is lower than when the situation in North Korea was at its absolute worst. I'm not particularly convinced that conditions in the prison are worse than they were in the 90s, when more prisons were open, had a larger population and death toll, and more people were persecuted for things like fleeing to China.

Basically, if the state were on the verge of failing again (as is often rumored) and the food supply is being restricted (rumored, again), we would see an increase, not a decrease. DPRK has fits of paranoia when it gets under pressure and reacts terribly when it feels threatened. Closing prisons and having a reduced prison population isn't really a symptom of that.

Finally, Hawk is pretty much one of the definitive people on North Korea, so I myself would take his view as well reasoned.


Here's an interesting bit of info about the DPRK that I think we can all agree is something we wouldn't expect.

Marijuana is legal.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/08/marijuana-in-north-korea_n_4067341.html

 

[kingkitty]

As I said earlier, you told me there was no more family punishment, which isn't said in the article or report. Now, there might be a liberalization, as the article puts it, where there are fewer family punishment. If true, that's good progress.

Finally, Hawk is pretty much one of the definitive people on North Korea, so I myself would take his view as well reasoned.

The report I mentioned was written by Hawk, and pointed to various possibilities like starvation, executions, etc that give me little hope that the lower prison population, camp closures are really an effort of reform. But as the report mentioned, there isn't enough reliable info. Until North Korea opens up more, or we get another recent escapee, we may be way off for the exact reasons.

And on the topic of weed, Colorado and North Korea finally have something in common.

 

[block tower]

subbed to this thread. im actually trying to plan a trip for next summer if its possible. anyone thats been on tourism, can you share the necessary steps to make a successful trip to NK? PM if necessary. thanks!

 

[dokish]

Jumped to the last page because this thread seems like a moral discussion above all things - one that I don't wanna get involved with.

I currently live in South Korea. I plan to visit North Korea. Can someone link me to tour packages and things like this? Also people's impressions how it was BEFORE setting foot in there? Regarding inspection, what to carry, etc etc.

After I'm in there I really don't care too much.

Am I gonna be in trouble because I live in the South? Will the South "take me back" if I visited the North?

I'm not american and I don't look american so I suppose I will have a "happier" time there? I also speak Korean so hopefully things will play out alright. The tours are mixed with chinese or they offer tours to groups easterners only too? (I don't speak Chinese so going with people that can speak English would be nice).

Thank you!

Also, COST?

 

[Chittagong]

Jumped to the last page because this thread seems like a moral discussion above all things - one that I don't wanna get involved with.

I currently live in South Korea. I plan to visit North Korea. Can someone link me to tour packages and things like this? Also people's impressions how it was BEFORE setting foot in there? Regarding inspection, what to carry, etc etc.

After I'm in there I really don't care too much.

Am I gonna be in trouble because I live in the South? Will the South "take me back" if I visited the North?

I'm not american and I don't look american so I suppose I will have a "happier" time there? I also speak Korean so hopefully things will play out alright. The tours are mixed with chinese or they offer tours to groups easterners only too? (I don't speak Chinese so going with people that can speak English would be nice).

Thank you!

Also, COST?

Any travel operator will do since all have to use KITC locally for the tour - same hotels, same food, same busses, same itinerary for all agencies. So go for the cheapest. Trips cost about $1000-1500 / week, full board and essentially no money needed all week, except for alcohol. Pick a group from an agency that deals with English speaking tourists to ensure you get a guide you can understand.

There's no problem having been in South in going either way, our group had several members who had been in South. But note that you can not have South Korean nationality, it's the only one that can not enter. I don't think looking non-American will have any impact on your tour. Speaking Korean is interesting - my sense is that it won't be very useful since nobody will have a 'real' conversation with you, the best benefit probably is that you can follow local news and see what the citizens are lead to believe.

subbed to this thread. im actually trying to plan a trip for next summer if its possible. anyone thats been on tourism, can you share the necessary steps to make a successful trip to NK? PM if necessary. thanks!

1 - Find the cheapest package from an agency that speaks your language. Actual trips are all the same regardless of agency

2 - Read the pre-trip instructions well and respect them. There aren't many, it's much simpler than Saudi Arabia for example.

3 - Go in relaxed with an open mind. It's very safe if you stick to what the guide says, so take it easy and enjoy.

4 - Don't try to start political / ideological conversations. The locals can not participate, it will just cause awkwardness on both sides.

5 - This might be obvious but never ever wander out alone from the hotels. You will be let walk freely out from the door anywhere so you might think it's ok, but in fact this will get the rest of your trip destinations cancelled, and you will be stuck in a not-very-fancy hotel with some very pissed fellow travellers for the rest of the week.

 

[DSFan1970]

All tours are suspended until further notice. My New Years trip might be in jeopardy of being cancelled. DPRK closed the borders due to Ebola.

 

[Chittagong]

All tours are suspended until further notice. My New Years trip might be in jeopardy of being cancelled. DPRK closed the borders due to Ebola.

Sorry to hear that. Ebola, lol. I bet the real reason is protesting the UN resolution.

 

[DSFan1970]

Sorry to hear that. Ebola, lol. I bet the real reason is protesting the UN resolution.

Yes. Still headed to China, but Young Pioneers will let me know next week about the tour. Doesn't look good. Ah well.

I'm open to Plan B suggestions.. Something adventurous. I will be in Beijing in late December.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Yes. Still headed to China, but Young Pioneers will let me know next week about the tour. Doesn't look good. Ah well.

I'm open to Plan B suggestions.. Something adventurous. I will be in Beijing in late December.

You could try to go to Tibet, assuming it's borders aren't still closed.

 

[Chittagong]

You could try to go to Tibet, assuming it's borders aren't still closed.

Seconded. Tibet and Bhutan are on my list for the next year or two.

 

[Chittagong]

Came across this fascinating excerpt from a book written by someone who was teaching English to the youth of North Korean elite. It does a great job in explaining just how weird things get when the population is entirely cut off from the rest of the world for so long:

http://ideas.ted.com/what-i-learned-from-teaching-english-in-north-korea/

 

[Stinkles]

Came across this fascinating excerpt from a book written by someone who was teaching English to the youth of North Korean elite. It does a great job in explaining just how weird things get when the population is entirely cut off from the rest of the world for so long:

http://ideas.ted.com/what-i-learned-from-teaching-english-in-north-korea/

It actually sounds like their subject changes were mandated by some outside agency, not reactions to her spaghetti boasting.

 

[funkmasterb]

Just checking in to see if the NK apologists are still going strong.

mmmmmmm...yup. That's a thing alright.

 

[vas_a_morir]

When you visit, you do get a lot of propaganda and history. Although, it is my understanding that the state perpetuates an alternate history of the Korean War where NK does not attack the South unprovoked, and one where US' continued military presence in South Korea is a form of colonial subjugation. I'm not sure what their narrative on the Korean war is, though. I doubt they would claim South Koreans attacked first.

 

[MasterOfPastures]

When you visit, you do get a lot of propaganda and history. Although, it is my understanding that the state perpetuates an alternate history of the Korean War where NK does not attack the South unprovoked, and one where US' continued military presence in South Korea is a form of colonial subjugation. I'm not sure what their narrative on the Korean war is, though. I doubt they would claim South Koreans attacked first.

That's what they say and claim: that the south, egged on by the US, invaded the North and they defended themselves. They were so ready, however, that they attacked the south before they even knew they were gonna attack!

 

[CouchMaster]

Appreciate it OP, although I've never been to NK I know what you mean by the prettiest girls in Asia. I was in Dalian for a month and met local girls there who were immigrants from NK (Pyongyang is right across the bay), and you could tell they were different from the natives.

 

[Frozenprince]

I think it's interesting to at least get a tertiary controlled look into a country we know so very, very little about.

However like most others I can't condone willfully giving money to the Kim regime while they continue to live like gods while their people starve to death and are worked to the bone for nothing.

It will all come crashing down in the next 10 or so years. And when it does, it'll be a disaster the likes of which we've never seen before. SK doesn't have the space or the infrastructure to take on the immense numbers of refugee's that will surge into their borders. Or the funds to allocate rebuilding an entire country from the ground up. It's literally a trillion dollar endeavor. And the expense and refugee problem is the exact reason the Chinese government continues to support and stabilize the Kim regime. Nobody wants to deal with the storm that's coming.

 

[Matty8787]

It is easy for people in the west to criticise NK on what the west tells us, but most media is a propaganda tool for the Governments/elite. How do we know to believe what the western media tell us about NK without going and at least having an inside perspective, even if it is controlled?

I would like to visit, if only for the experience.

 

[Ushojax]

It is easy for people in the west to criticise NK on what the west tells us, but most media is a propaganda tool for the Governments/elite. How do we know to believe what the western media tell us about NK without going and at least having an inside perspective, even if it is controlled?

I would like to visit, if only for the experience.

We have plenty of inside perspectives, from people who have escaped or defected. It's one big concentration camp.