Jimmyfenix
Member
Yup if any of yous are giant bomb subscribers I suggest watching drews trip to north Korea. Very interesting and surreal.
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North Korea (DPRK) tourism |OT| - surreal, beautiful, friendly
- Thread starter Chittagong
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Wolves Evolve
Member
OP, with all due respect to your great first post and really great attitude (being serious, promise!), your rationalisation of your trip relies on something we know not to be true. That is, that the money you bring in goes to the people and businesses you see. You should know full well that the entire DPRK economic system is structured for centralised income and if there were 1,000 tourists or a million a year, the people in those shops and buses would be paid the same.
Their wages are centrally controlled.
Businesses do not have profits because all the tourist-facing businesses are centrally controlled.
So I believe you cannot justify your trip the way you did. HOWEVER .... I don't agree with the fellow posters here who say you shouldn't have gone either. North Korea will fall, and when it does, the entire world will pay in some small way economically. I think it should be documented and understood journalistically as best people can.
Their wages are centrally controlled.
Businesses do not have profits because all the tourist-facing businesses are centrally controlled.
So I believe you cannot justify your trip the way you did. HOWEVER .... I don't agree with the fellow posters here who say you shouldn't have gone either. North Korea will fall, and when it does, the entire world will pay in some small way economically. I think it should be documented and understood journalistically as best people can.
Reading the OP makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand up. We're literally talking about the worst regime in the world right now. A totalitarian regime going on 65+ years now. A regime that as we speak has hundreds of thousands of people starving to death in labor camps and gulags. I'm sure late 1930's Germany was safe and beautiful too, with good looking German women, pristine architecture and landscapes and that the people I'd meet would be friendly to a rich tourist too.
I've seen and read too many first hand accounts of the real life of North Koreans, what they've done to countless generations of people. I get the fascination, especially from a western standpoint, but no, I'd feel sick to my very bones visiting a place like that, as if somehow my money, my time, was giving tacit approval to the deaths of over a million+ people.
I've seen and read too many first hand accounts of the real life of North Koreans, what they've done to countless generations of people. I get the fascination, especially from a western standpoint, but no, I'd feel sick to my very bones visiting a place like that, as if somehow my money, my time, was giving tacit approval to the deaths of over a million+ people.
Porcile
Member
I'd like to visit but there's no way I'd want to fund the regime. Defectors are almost universally against tourism to North Korea.
"It's very serene. The lack of any commercial messages makes everything look very calm and clean. It's a striking difference to a capitalist country full of billboards, neon signs, shops, gas stations, bus stop ads... There are very few cars on the roads, people mostly walk or bike. This all combines to a relaxed sense of peace and ease."
Haha - other than the propaganda posters extolling the virtues of a brutalist corrupt government and the murder of Western people.
I'm glad you enjoyed it, but your post is like it's actually written by the DPRK.
"It's very serene. The lack of any commercial messages makes everything look very calm and clean. It's a striking difference to a capitalist country full of billboards, neon signs, shops, gas stations, bus stop ads... There are very few cars on the roads, people mostly walk or bike. This all combines to a relaxed sense of peace and ease."
Haha - other than the propaganda posters extolling the virtues of a brutalist corrupt government and the murder of Western people.
I'm glad you enjoyed it, but your post is like it's actually written by the DPRK.
Chittagong
Gold Member
That is the biggest moral dilemma, yes. And I agree that the economical system funnels the currency brought in around the system. I suppose the question to ask is that are the people in the country better or worse off with you visiting there as a tourist?
I heard they do not like long lenses very much. But then again, I saw German tourists taking pictures of a construction site with super long lenses in front of a group of soldiers, so it might not be true anymore. Certainly no problem with regular SLRs, smartphones or digital cameras.
You can't even quantify it, but I'd assume worse off because it legitimizes a modern Nazi/authoritarian regime. Those beautiful giggling women, those polite handlers, those welcoming hosts are all part of an elaborate setup to portray NK as something it's not. The truth is, hundreds of thousands are starving to death in modern concentration camps, millions are malnourished, suffering from a wide variety of diseases and health problems etc.
The same question is asked everytime the US or South Korea give food/humanitarian aid. It rarely goes to the poor and downtrodden who need it, and instead is taken and fed to soldiers and their families to keep them happy and to show them, dear leader takes care of them.
Everything is controlled. So any money you spend is taken by the government and used to fund whatever is deemed necessary. The people working don't get to pocket it...
Edit: OP even stated it: 'the only retailers are state run shops and kiosks selling groceries, such as beer and candy'.
"Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his own brow? No says the man in Pyongyang, it'll belongs to everyone".
Porcile
Member
Yes, they are much worse off because the type of controlled tourist trip you went on is just a further consolidation of power for the government.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/01/tourism-north-korea-right-wrong-ethical-defectors
Jimmyfenix
Member
Here is the link with the giantbomb video.
http://www.giantbomb.com/videos/drew-returns-from-north-korea/2300-5929/
and a few pictures that Drew shared.
]
http://www.giantbomb.com/videos/drew-returns-from-north-korea/2300-5929/
and a few pictures that Drew shared.
Moff
Member
the propaganda ride is as perforated as anything else there. I can imagine you can see quite a lot of "what they dont want you to see there", and of course the propaganda can be quite fascinating by itself.
I dont understand the hostility against the OP, great topic and I have had the idea of going there myself for quite some time.
I dont understand the hostility against the OP, great topic and I have had the idea of going there myself for quite some time.
Chittagong
Gold Member
Added a couple of pictures of modern and traditional housing and everyday traffic to the OP. Modern houses are massive soviet style apartment blocks, traditional ones are very tightly together like in Vietnam. There are very few people on the streets, and almost no "cars".
bigmit3737
Member
Whoa. Interesting read.
I don't know really know much about North Korea, but If it is as bad as people sat it is, I wonder if I would pick up that vibe as I'm usually very good at sensing the true mood of a situation.
I really hope it's not as bad as people are saying it is.
I don't know really know much about North Korea, but If it is as bad as people sat it is, I wonder if I would pick up that vibe as I'm usually very good at sensing the true mood of a situation.
I really hope it's not as bad as people are saying it is.
it's unsettling to see someone selling the benefits of visiting a place that is currently causing horrific cruelty and oppression. Like it's fine as as long as middle class westerners get to take some cool pictures.
Chittagong
Gold Member
For the record, I don't doubt any of the reports or think DPRK system has benefits to justify it.
But I do think it's extremely eye opening to get to take peek into something you have read so much about - helps to give context to what you read.
Very interesting read, thanks for linking.
bigmit3737
Member
I also got a Half Life 2 impression, when I read OP's account of his visit.
Kenshin001
Member
Actually it is best to think about it and not try to justify it. By visiting the country and not saying anything you willingly collaborate with the regime. You are asking people to focus on the positives when people are dying and being tortured in labor camps for petty political crimes. It is abhorrent.
You realize that your view of NK is skewed on what your media wants you to see right?
Glad to see they don't try to brainwash tourists.
Can you rationalize the consistency of the defector's stories of a broken country where basic human rights are non-existant? This isn't a question of propaganda, and anyone who thinks it is is delusional.
Can you rationalize the consistency of the defector's stories of a broken country where basic human rights are non-existant? This isn't a question of propaganda, and anyone who thinks it is is delusional.
Chittagong
Gold Member
I think that's a fair point of view and a reasonable argument - that if anything positive gets reported of the country this will prolong its eventual collapse. This is the same view brought across by some of the defectors in the Guardian article. Although weirdly, that is the opposite form of media control too - limiting coverage to the negatives only.
Personally when choosing to go I sided on the argument that any exposure and opening up will accelerate the progress too, and that every place has also good things. The main takeaway for me was that when the country eventually opens up, I foresee the people doing extremely well in the global economy.
Porcile
Member
There are lots of books about everyday life in North Korea which go into detail what North Korean life is like outside of Pyongyang. Not all information comes from Fox News or whatever.
marimorimo
Member
Interesting read. Made me want to try visiting NK, although I know my hubby will never allow it.
I'm interested to know what the Western media is hiding from us about NK.
There's a lot of awful regimes in the world, but NK is by far the worst (some Africans regimes might come close from time to time, but not really). This is a small example: http://www.economist.com/news/asia/21596999-un-report-accuses-north-korea-unspeakable-human-rights-abuses-and-hints-chinas-complicity/. I don't have anything against people going to NK as tourists, but the OP is WAY too positive and naive about the North Korean society. You can't even begin to compare it with anything else.
Dwight Schrute
Member
Would never spend a dime in this hell of a dictatorship.
I've already read so much, and seen so many vids on just the tourism aspect of North Korea. So nothing here is new, but that's okay.
I understand the allure of visiting such an odd place like North Korea. And I'm not gonna hate on you for going. But I would never visit North Korea while there's a chance my tourist money is gonna be funneled to something like Kim Jong-un's luxury alcohol collection.
I understand the allure of visiting such an odd place like North Korea. And I'm not gonna hate on you for going. But I would never visit North Korea while there's a chance my tourist money is gonna be funneled to something like Kim Jong-un's luxury alcohol collection.
EvilKatarn
Member
Most likely they weren't really "out of the country".
Just there to fill the spots on the plane. Think of it as a paid vacation.
Oh no, have we been lied to about North Korea? Are you saying it's actually just fine?
Chittagong
Gold Member
This is exactly what surprised me. There were direct flights leaving to Beijing and Vladivostok, completely full of DPRK citizens with only a few foreigners among them. Our guides had spent a couple of months in Sweden. You would imagine there is some very strong form of incentive in place to ensure they won't defect while on their trip. Certain groups need to spend time abroad to learn how to do things like build roads, train military, construct modern looking buildings, install servers.
And just to clarify - it's not like a regular citizen could buy a flight ticket. It's a very special privilege for some specific purpose, assigned probably through a very elaborate process. In fact, even travel within the country is tightly controlled, the locals can roam from one city to another without permission.
If they ran away, their entire family line would be thrown in prison/wiped out.
They send like three generations of their familymembers to prison camps.
Whoa.
North Korean men are, on average, between 3 - 8cm (1.2 - 3.1in) shorter than their South Korean counterparts (http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-17774210) which is pretty incredible when you take into account how short a time the Koreans have been apart from each other.
edit: As for there being "very strong form of incentive in place to ensure they won't defect while on their trip" or not: The NK government is known to send the family of defectors to prison camps and/or kill them. So that's a pretty big incentive right there...
You have a very romanticized view of the country.
If people want a non romanticized view the Vice News segment on it is fantastic and less idealistic, showing the faults of a country in a fair way.
What media are you referring to? As I said the Vice News episode where they travel with Dennis Rodman is incredibly informative.
Barbacoatl
Banned
Thanks for sharing your experience chitta, it's certainly refreshing to focus on certain overlooked aspects of the country.
The armchair humanitarians will always be insufferable and in funkmasterb's case, unnecessarily rude.
Dude, take a chill pill.
The armchair humanitarians will always be insufferable and in funkmasterb's case, unnecessarily rude.
Dude, take a chill pill.
You seem to know how to be rude pretty well.
Mauricio_Magus
Banned
I'd never go to North Korea, even if I got PAID to go visit it... but that was a cool read, thanks OP.
Barbacoatl
Banned
If it fits...
The FRONTLINE documentary on North Korea is also pretty fantastic: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/secret-state-of-north-korea/
Chittagong
Gold Member
I totally get what's wrong in the country and have read the same eye witness accounts most of the people have here. The Vice piece is good, I agree. I posted the Guardian article to my friends so that they can properly ponder the ethical considerations themselves before booking trips, I think it's an essential read as well and just getting it made this thread worth posting for me.
Reporting meeting friendly, nice people in a place with the reputation of North Korea certainly can feel romanticised and staged. But the human mind is a resilient thing - I remember meeting some of the survivors of the horrors of the Cambodian regime after it fell. Back then I was really surprised in how welcoming and upbeat the people were, despite the horrors they must have experienced.
Interesting and well written OP, I guess?
I would never go to North Korea. I don't want to support a regime that commits atrocious human rights abuses just to satisfy my own mild curiosity, no matter how small my contribution to the regime would be. I don't want to be rude, but I wouldn't have been ok doing what you did.
Edit: On the topic of the "upbeat" locals, were the tourist guides nearby at the time? I can't imagine them expressing negative thoughts to you if there was a risk they could get in serious trouble.
I would never go to North Korea. I don't want to support a regime that commits atrocious human rights abuses just to satisfy my own mild curiosity, no matter how small my contribution to the regime would be. I don't want to be rude, but I wouldn't have been ok doing what you did.
Edit: On the topic of the "upbeat" locals, were the tourist guides nearby at the time? I can't imagine them expressing negative thoughts to you if there was a risk they could get in serious trouble.
Barbacoatl
Banned
Do you eat sugar at all? Because you are 'supporting' a lot of BS if you do.
Get real, people.
Whitechocolatekrispies
Banned
Hey guys my grandpa also visited concentration camps in Germany during ww2. He said it was fine always smiling guards, plenty of exercise for the volunteer prisoners and endless hot water despite the tremendous gas bill the guards have pay each month.
It's not that bad really. Don't listen to the western propaganda.
It's not that bad really. Don't listen to the western propaganda.
What's your point here?
Chittagong
Gold Member
I can understand the sentiment - I suppose I would react negatively (although with more constraint in expression) if somebody reported that you can have an interesting travel experience and encounter positive things and nice people in a fundamentalist sharia region. That could be seen as tacitly supporting the torture and killing of gay, women, Christians. Personally I fear those areas much more and have less optimism for their future. The world has problems.
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