A Human Becoming
More than a Member
Agree with these posts.
I won't criticize Chittagong for going, but I feel he's painting the country based on its appearance while underselling the brainwashing and control.
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North Korea (DPRK) tourism |OT| - surreal, beautiful, friendly
- Thread starter Chittagong
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I won't criticize Chittagong for going, but I feel he's painting the country based on its appearance while underselling the brainwashing and control.
Gordon Shumway
Banned
wuxian fengguang
Neo Member
Definitely on the shortlist of places I want to visit. As for the complaints, I'd rather some people get fed under a authoritarian regime than none get fed at all. Unless you would like to leverage starvation as an impetus for regime change, which is morally reprehensible in its own way.
legacyzero
Banned
Wow at that ending...
Interesting OP. I'm sure the North Koreans can be fairly upbeat, but it's only because they're kept in the dark on how fucked up their country is compared to the rest of the world. Truth and knowledge are more important than happiness, so even if most North Koreans are fairly content (which is doubtful) that hardly justifies their regime.
RustyNails
Member
"We all know that people are starving to death in the concentration camps, where generations of families are punished for a single person trying to escape. People are made to disappear from the face of the earth for even suspected of crticizing Dear Leader. But we cant do anything about it, so might as well enjoy the scenic tour!"
A bizzare thread no doubt. r/pyongyang leaking everywhere.
A bizzare thread no doubt. r/pyongyang leaking everywhere.
Pound_lb003
Member
So glad that firstly you took the criticism as I had intended, rather than some others have. I think it's an entirely justified opinion. And more to the point, your post was honestly kind of inspiring, which is the more important point. Just harder to elaborate on praise, than criticism. Secondly, nice to hear you did think about it while writing. Regardless of the choice you made.
I will leave this thread so as to avoid further derailing, but seriously - great post. I want to go there now.
Seems like if those are the only two options sure. But it's not.
What OP are you guys reading, exactly? He never said horrible stuff didn't happen there. He acknowledged many times that it does. You don't need to inform him of that, he is more than fully aware of that. He is merely reporting his experience, which he already acknowledged too that is limited by what they are willing to show him. This thread-shittting of telling the OP how "naive" and "brainwashed" he is when that is not clearly the case is getting really old.
Yes.
Reporting his experience is fine. Other people can call him naive. That's also fine. What's the point of making the thread if you only want one viewpoint?
If they have a valid argument for that claim, sure. Which none of them have done yet. It's nothing more than thread-shitting at this point.
Painting a rosy picture of a country via a government sponsored tour can't be criticized? It seems obvious to me. What about that isn't valid?
Chittagong thanks for sharing this experience. While you seem to be getting a large amount of negative comments (which is understandable considering the many documented issues in North Korea vs your very positive OP, but as Y2Kev pointed out, it's not necessary to insult you either), you've kept a good attitude so far and that IMO has kept the thread interesting to read and more information being exchanged vs devolving into a lot of back and forth arguing that I was expecting to see by page 2.
I just find it weird that you compare Red Khmer-style slave labour camps to Guantanamo Bay. Like, what you are trying to say with this is 'look the US does bad things too'? We didn't let millions of people starve to death
The OP obviously isn't American. And it looks like has an issue with the USA based on his posts.
PjotrStroganov
Member
I think that part of the attraction is the fact that you get a filtered view of the country. The whole act of filtering would be the main attraction for me.
Btw, North Korea should go all out on sustainable energy and should be supported in that. The lack of fuel should be a blessing in disguise. If only the regime would get more progressive.
Btw, North Korea should go all out on sustainable energy and should be supported in that. The lack of fuel should be a blessing in disguise. If only the regime would get more progressive.
Again, he is merely reporting his experience. That's it. He already knows the horrible things that go behind the scenes. There is no need to show up on the thread saying that. He knows. Calling his OP "propaganda" is also idiotic. He acknowledges that what they show him is limited and that the whole experience is that way. At no point he denies any of the horrible stuff that happens there, nor he claims that the vision of the country isn't skewed by what they want to show. He is in the end, reporting what the experience was and the positives that it had (again, acknowledging that is they want to show you)
Telling the OP how horrible NK is and how the vision of the country is altered because the way they control the visit is extremely unnecessary. The OP knows that. The OP acknowledges that. It's annoying to see people patronizing the OP without actually reading his posts at all.
Considering the gap in equality in America and the backwardness towards various issues like execution and gun control I think you'll find it hard to find a non american citizen who doesn't have many issues with America.
It may not be bad to the same extent as North Korea, but when you look at Americas "elite" and the "bottom rung" citizens of America you realise just how bad it is. Just look at the poor people you have living in Detroit and how completely abandoned they've been by their governement. It may not be as bad as North Korea, but isn't America a third world nation at this point? I'm not defending the North Korean regime because I find it detestable, but I can atleast see that North Korea isn't the only place with huge problems.
I found OPs posts very interesting to read as someone who outside of a few documentaries have never really looked much into the touristy side of NK before.
No?
I think it's annoying to compare the country to school shootings and Guantanamo as well. I'm sorry that you're irritated by people pointing it out but when someone takes a position they have to be prepared for someone criticizing them for it. And I find that context is especially needed for something like this and don't feel that it was adequately stated in anything but flowery terms.
America has its problems. Inequality in wealth and for minorities is not great here. To compare it to NK seriously is really my problem with this thread and why I've pointed out other forms of information. You're ignorant of both countries and anyone who says otherwise is disingenuous and I feel sorry for them.
crazy monkey
Banned
thanks op. very good info.
He never compared it to school shootings. The only reference to school shootings was the OP talking about the NK journal that had a article about it. That's it.
And what he said about Guantanamo and the death row is completely true. You don't see that on tourist trips. That was his entire point. The comparison here is that the US government has things they don't want you too see either. He is not comparing the severity of either one. Trying to turn around that statement to claim the OP has an anti-american agenda is extremely weird.
I went to Dubai ( and 4 other Emirates) last year, and the governmental narrative is really easy to passively absorb. Until you try to go on r/Atheism and realize it is censored.
Of course you saw symptoms of a broken society that condones slavery (or however you call various styles of indentured servitude).
After the fact, I sometimes feel bad for giving even a penny to the theocratic dictatorship. But then again, I got an opportunity to see and live the mask the government puts on for tourists, something unique in time and space. The regime can be toppled (lol), and my experience would be unique.
I know I often think about it like this: would you refuse a trip to Berlin under the Reich, East Berlin or Moscow in the USSR? From an ethical standpoint, it is a disgusting proposition, but knowing it was 100% safe for me as a tourist in a police state, I think my curiosity would get the best of me. I know it's the most morbid a curiosity can get, but seeing the sunny side of a hellhole has a strange appeal.
But as human being, your responsabilty is to be alert and know how to recognise the cracks in the wall that allow us to see the real country behind the authocratic regime's propaganda. If you go there with an "open mind", you will come back with your mind closed by the propaganda. If you are just passive and just want to have a good time, that is where I think it becomes morally sketchy because you aren't just turning a blind eye to appease the handlers, but out of moral paresse.
This is how I see it, and the whole thing is dripping with moral relativism so I don't expect everyone to agree.
Of course you saw symptoms of a broken society that condones slavery (or however you call various styles of indentured servitude).
After the fact, I sometimes feel bad for giving even a penny to the theocratic dictatorship. But then again, I got an opportunity to see and live the mask the government puts on for tourists, something unique in time and space. The regime can be toppled (lol), and my experience would be unique.
I know I often think about it like this: would you refuse a trip to Berlin under the Reich, East Berlin or Moscow in the USSR? From an ethical standpoint, it is a disgusting proposition, but knowing it was 100% safe for me as a tourist in a police state, I think my curiosity would get the best of me. I know it's the most morbid a curiosity can get, but seeing the sunny side of a hellhole has a strange appeal.
But as human being, your responsabilty is to be alert and know how to recognise the cracks in the wall that allow us to see the real country behind the authocratic regime's propaganda. If you go there with an "open mind", you will come back with your mind closed by the propaganda. If you are just passive and just want to have a good time, that is where I think it becomes morally sketchy because you aren't just turning a blind eye to appease the handlers, but out of moral paresse.
This is how I see it, and the whole thing is dripping with moral relativism so I don't expect everyone to agree.
I'm moving to this utopia
The problem is, it's hard to talk about a subject or place without comparing it to somewhere else. People make constant comparisons to events all the time and with the events that happen in both countries I've mentioned it's hard to not atleast make some comparisons between the two of them. You yourself have even bought up Guantanamo Bay which has been proven to be a place where the US government has people openly tortured as political prisoners. The reason for those people being political prisoners is different, but they still both meet the same fate.
The American prison system also treats people like animals and the conditions prisoners are often subject to is quite a hot topic in world politics currently due to how far behind or different it is to the majority of the developed world. Once again it has a very similar situation of how prisoners are treated in NK. It's of course not to the same extent, but is it really all that different outside of the severity?
I like to compare things so that we may point out huge issues in our own societies rather than conviniently avoiding making changes to our own problems. We don't live in a utopian society ourselves, I live in Europe and I see a lot of Americans online (sorry for using America so much, it's just the easiest example I can make) who seem to believe they have even an ounce of freedom which to me seems completely untrue as an outsider.
The OP definitely has an anti-American slant. America doesn't limit what you can see when you visit anywhere close to NK nor limit its citizens to their basic human rights. Are you seriously comparing the two?! It's an asinine comparison and you getting self righteous about it is bizarre.
This is a pathetic post and you should be ashamed of it.
N
NinjaFridge
Unconfirmed Member
Be more euphoric bro.
killertofu
Member
Very interesting thread, OP. Really glad you wrote it.
I don't think there's any denying the atrocities of the regime but it's just so damn curious to me to be in a country like that.
I feel like it would be like visiting an alien world. Or some weird 80s dystopian flick. It would definitely be eye-opening to visit a place like that. Just to observe, you know?
I don't think there's any denying the atrocities of the regime but it's just so damn curious to me to be in a country like that.
I feel like it would be like visiting an alien world. Or some weird 80s dystopian flick. It would definitely be eye-opening to visit a place like that. Just to observe, you know?
breakfuss
Member
Are you actually serious right now? You really thought the U.S. is a developing nation? By what measure? And while it's true there are a lot of fucked places all over the globe surely we can make a distinction between a government that actively oppresses its people. I'm all for cultural relativism but give me a break.
You can't visit Guantanamo Bay. That's the point. That's the comparison. America has things they don't want you to see. This is how it is. Read properly. I'm not comparing the severity of each, neither was the OP.
"nor limit its citizens to their basic human rights"
Good thing that was never the point of the comparison and nobody said that America limits their citizen's human rights. I think it's even more bizarre that you can't understand how a comparison works. Nobody here is saying America is worse. Nobody is arguing that the NK situation is not severely worse than America's. The entire point of the comparison is simply that America's government has things that they hide too. You trying to spin this specific comparison to a comparison of the whole human rights and severity of the problems between America and NK is actually what strikes me as extremely bizarre.
Just because Western media tells me I should hate North Korea doesn't mean I should. I would visit North Korea and I wouldn't be surprised if Gaza is in worst shape. Saudi Arabia I heard is aweful.
The only difference between the three regions is that Western supported Israel and Saudi Arabia are the oppressors while the West is opposed to North Korea.
The only difference between the three regions is that Western supported Israel and Saudi Arabia are the oppressors while the West is opposed to North Korea.
This is pointless. You refuse to acknowledge context and its importance and instead stubbornly adhere that the comparison is valid because at some superficial level they are both hiding things. That type of analysis is not worthy of discussion in my eyes.
I don't hate NK. I hate its leaders. There are more differences than the one you claim.
legacyzero
Banned
Wow! I hadn't seen this one yet:
VICE: A friendly basketball game with North Korea featuring the Globetrotters and Dennis Rodman
Probably the most positive doc I've seen involving the DPRK yet.
VICE: A friendly basketball game with North Korea featuring the Globetrotters and Dennis Rodman
Probably the most positive doc I've seen involving the DPRK yet.
That's the video I was referencing earlier. It's eye-opening.
As an avid traveler, I intend to visit North Korea in the coming years for the experience, so this was definitely an interesting read. I'm not expecting an authentic local experience, and I surely understand that I am seeing what they want me to say and nothing more. I definitely do not like NK, but it's a once-in-a-lifetime experience and I look forward to it.
Valkerionseven
Member
Interesting topic and thanks to the OP for sharing. Also great that you realized what was really going on as well lol, cause the sentences before the end were like "uh....you realize WHY it seems so nice and peaceful right?"
Sucks that like someone else said, its not really a local experience (the best parts of traveling) but not much you can do about it in NK. Seems like an interesting trip, but at the same time not really on my places to go, hate HATE HATE guided tours so a week of them ain't for me.
Sucks that like someone else said, its not really a local experience (the best parts of traveling) but not much you can do about it in NK. Seems like an interesting trip, but at the same time not really on my places to go, hate HATE HATE guided tours so a week of them ain't for me.
Guileless
Temp Banned for Remedial Purposes
Is your argument that Americans don't have an ounce of freedom and the Americans you communicate with online are too dumb/brainwashed to realize it? You'll need to walk me through that step by step.
That's how comparisons of specific things work. You trying to somehow spin it to a comparison of the whole average situation of the two countries is nonsensical. It would be something like I making a comparison of imaginary country X(has good healthcare but human right's issues) to America. The subject of this comparison would be healthcare. I would say that the healthcare of imaginary country X is better than America. You replying to this argument to "Well, imaginary country X has human rights issues" is completely beyond the point of the comparison.
Edit: and hell, all this discussion seems to be getting way way beyond my initial point. OP is well aware of NK's problems and that the guided visit provides a skewed vision of the country. He does not need anybody to educate him on that or patronize him.
Narpas Sword0
Member
I also like how he says that they just don't like showing you their ugly things, just like London! As if I can't visit a concentration camp if I go to Germany.
That was some white washing in that OP.
No it's not because the human rights issues are the things the country are hiding. Keep using the word spin, you seem to know a lot about it.
terrisus
Member
No thanks.
I like being able to hop out and buy some 3DS games, to another store for some computer accessories, and stop off for a couple of slices of local pizza on the way home.
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