You are underestimating decades of control.
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North Korea (DPRK) tourism |OT| - surreal, beautiful, friendly
- Thread starter Chittagong
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You are underestimating decades of control.
"Surreal, beautiful and friendly." I guess there are always going to be tourists interested in visiting countries run by totalitarian regimes and it's important that it's documented, but cheerfully endorsing it with disingenuous rationalizations, complete with "OT" in the title, is pretty awful.
beato_angelico
Member
thanks for reminding me that I would never, never visit a country like north korea.
You can express that without asking if someone is retarded.
Did you get a sense for what the healthcare system is like? What would happen if you had a heart attack while on your trip?
That's not true at all. Have you read about the recent UN report on NK, based on the eyewitness accounts of 80 NK defectors?
Here: http://www.economist.com/news/asia/21596999-un-report-accuses-north-korea-unspeakable-human-rights-abuses-and-hints-chinas-complicity
The incredible cruelty of the NK regimes through the years has been well-documented by defectors, sources in the country etc. You can't talk about "propaganda" here, there's nothing good about the Kim regime. Absolutely nothing.
I don't know if it exactly answers your question, but in one documentary they visited the biggest hospital in Pyongyang and there were no patients there. When confronting the people there, they talked around it.
Chittagong
Gold Member
They told us there are around 20 hospitals in Pyongyang, a city of 2.8 million people. I would expect the healthcare available to locals to be extremely limited and supplies non-existent. It's almost impossible to imagine just how severe the trade ban has hit the country - they really don't have almost anything they can't make themselves. They have an university for medical sciences, thought mainly by foreign professors.
If a tourist or business visitor would have a heart attack, I'm sure they would have supplies and equipment for important people and the military would rush you through the empty streets to such hospital. And considering Pyongyang is roughly as close to Beijing as Berlin is to London, you could be airlifted there quickly too.
Whitechocolatekrispies
Banned
I'd like you to show anyone in this thread non western media of North Korea which shows a similar sentiment to the OP please.
yeah... this.
Criticising the OP for being naiv but believing everything our side says without any second thought?
If I've learned anything in the last couple of months, it's that we are not necessarily the good guys either... or to be more precise, there are no good guys, just different shades of grey. Our information about "evil regimes" should be viewed just as critically.
I always wanted to go to north korea since I read the railroad blog
It's about a guy from Vienna travelling to north Korea through Russia and entering the country barely legal, being unsupervised for days. Absolutely stunning pictures. If you got a few hours, give it a read.
I have no idea what locals do, but one girl on my group had a health situation
explosive diarrhea
I have no idea how capable they are in treating more serious issues.
This is a pretty good article on the subject: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/23/north-korean-health-system-crumbling-sanctions
legacyzero
Banned
I never knew much about NK until it started acting super crazy lately, and Kim Jong Il died.
I started to read up on it afterward. I have a strange fascination with places like this anyway, so I was reading/watching documentaries for WEEKS.
Man, this place gives me the willies, but somehow, it fascinates me at the same time. I'm not sure why.
Great read OP. Thanks.
EDIT: Why are ya'll being mean?
I started to read up on it afterward. I have a strange fascination with places like this anyway, so I was reading/watching documentaries for WEEKS.
Man, this place gives me the willies, but somehow, it fascinates me at the same time. I'm not sure why.
Great read OP. Thanks.
EDIT: Why are ya'll being mean?
Unbound By Death
Member
There's enough books written by defectors, and based on the accounts of defectors, to say that yes, the Kim regime is an evil regime. You can't hide this shit behind "shades of gray". Sure there's other evil in the world, also in the West, but that doesn't make the Kim regime any less evil.
Also, I'm against many of the sanctions against the regime because they more or less only make the poor poorer, but that's another story.
Barbacoatl
Banned
Life pro-tip: don't rely on Vice for your worldview (or anything really). Go outside if possible.
Chittagong
Gold Member
Thanks - that journalist truly put her life on the stake to report this story.
I have added this and the Guardian article to the OP. It's essential that people understand what they are doing before deciding to travel - even when the ethical considerations are complex.
that's the part I was hinting at. We are also responsible for some of the bad things happening there. not saying that the regime isn't evil, quite the opposite. but still, we are also partly to blame.
We just don't get the whole picture through our own media, that's all I wanted to say.
Chittagong
Gold Member
Now that you mention, this is the reason each group has two guides. One guide will remain behind with the person fallen ill, so that they don't stay unsupervised.
Glad people enjoyed the tourism but it's still a shithole country.
The government is a fucking joke. The people outside of a select few are starving and they have fucking concentration camps with public executions and torture.
Of course they'll only show you what they think you're ok to see.
Everything is empty and serene for a reason.
NK is a horrible joke with zero redeeming factor.
The government is a fucking joke. The people outside of a select few are starving and they have fucking concentration camps with public executions and torture.
Of course they'll only show you what they think you're ok to see.
Everything is empty and serene for a reason.
NK is a horrible joke with zero redeeming factor.
I agree people shouldn't insult the OP.
But you don't understand the general feeling of hostility? The NK government is committing crimes against humanity on par with any other horrible totalitarian regime from history you'd like to name. They're basically the Nazis but with less ability to project power.
The whole 'it's not all bad' tone of the OP makes it literally sound like it was written by a North Korean astroturfer.
I'm thinking the OP didn't get see a soldier suffocate a new born baby in front of its mother on the off chance it wasn't 100% Korean. But hey, the people on the street looked happy!
It's certainly not ideal to only get information filtered through dubious media outlets, but the alternative to that on offer is a collection of tourist experiences that go through a scripted, filtered experience as well, and often comes across sounding like Stockholm Syndrome.
The implication of your statement along with previous posts in this thread is its okay to trust the OP though? And really the condescension isn't warranted.
So you have absolutely nothing of worth to say about the subject other than to insult "armchair humanitarians" and saying that people shoud go outside instead of looking up stuff about NK? There's plenty of books about NK, the recent UN report based on interviews with 80 North Korean defectors, documentaries other than the one VICE made about NK, articles etc. The horrors of the regime are well-documented. But if we can't really rely on anything for information other than going outside or something, what's the point, right?
Guileless
Temp Banned for Remedial Purposes
What's your preferred source for North Korean news?
Pyongyang Times, obviously. All articles written by Dear Leader.
Chittagong
Gold Member
I have a copy. It's got an article of shootings or stabbings in American schools, I forget which. It's a bit tricky to store as you are not allowed to fold it.
You should make an OP for that too.
Barbacoatl
Banned
The thread's primary goal is to discuss travel. I got in here to commend the OP on its info and approach, and call out people like funkmasterb.
No one in its sane mind will deny the situation in NK, or Cuba. That didn't stop me from visiting Cuba. Not all people live life with an agenda (or non-agenda, whatever).
Anyone interested in discussing those specifics can create a thread anytime and stop invading others, imho.
About the armchair humanitarians comment...as I said, if it fits...but if you're a real humanitarian whose life is devoted to others out there, not posting on gaf, then you get a cookie too.
BrokenEchelon
Banned
Well if I ever feel like putting my life in danger, touring a third world country where most of the populace are treated like slaves, and give the people responsible for the suffering of millions some of my money so that I can be given a nice propaganda pitch, I'll be sure to reference this.
Do one for the diamond mines of Africa next, and how much fun you can have watching people laboring proudly for the glory of Africa while getting to observe lions and other wildlife in their natural habitat! Should be great fun!
Do one for the diamond mines of Africa next, and how much fun you can have watching people laboring proudly for the glory of Africa while getting to observe lions and other wildlife in their natural habitat! Should be great fun!
Seems like you bought their pr package all right. Had a friend who did a similar trip. Yeah of course you meet friendly people, they are paid to do so and are the only ones you are allowed to meet. Of course going to nk can be a unique, valuable experience even in this format but to not acknowledge the charade of it all with all we know and have evidence of. We _know these tours represent a fake postcard of the real nk and you closing your eyes to that is frankly offensive.
The horrors of the North Korean regime is well documented. So is their tourist experience, although most people thinking and talking about it, are not gullible enough to buy the north korean experience and are more than a little disturbed.
For example the whole people section where the OP talks about the north korean people in comparison to the Chinese is very deluded and misguided.
My father visited the Soviet Union in the 80s, and there were some similiarities in the way the regime tried to create a propaganda tourist experience which indeed as a tourist experience could be superior to some you could have in more prosperous nations, but he like most people saw through it.
Of course North Korea is much, much worse than 80s SU, which makes the OP's reaction even worse. And the whole "we don't really know about North Korea, western media (and all media who paint north korea in a negative light i guess) are not to be trusted and those who say north korea is totalitarian are like fox news" from others is kind of disgustingly stupid. And that is one of the kindest way you could describe such uninformed direct apologism for totalitarian regimes.
For example the whole people section where the OP talks about the north korean people in comparison to the Chinese is very deluded and misguided.
My father visited the Soviet Union in the 80s, and there were some similiarities in the way the regime tried to create a propaganda tourist experience which indeed as a tourist experience could be superior to some you could have in more prosperous nations, but he like most people saw through it.
Of course North Korea is much, much worse than 80s SU, which makes the OP's reaction even worse. And the whole "we don't really know about North Korea, western media (and all media who paint north korea in a negative light i guess) are not to be trusted and those who say north korea is totalitarian are like fox news" from others is kind of disgustingly stupid. And that is one of the kindest way you could describe such uninformed direct apologism for totalitarian regimes.
Of course it's relevant to discuss the situation in NK in this thread when people feel that the OP paints a way too positive and naive view of the NK society. This is one example:
The NK regime is the most oppressive regime in the world, so it'll always be relevant to discuss that subject in a thread about tourism to the country, how the trip is completely staged etc. Especially when the OP paints such a rosy picture of the experience.
You can't even begin to compare modern Cuba and NK btw, even if Cuba isn't exactly an open society either.
As for the "armchair humanitarian" comment, I just think it's a dumb way of talking about and dismissing people.
Pound_lb003
Member
Awesome post with brilliant writing up to a point.
OP if you're reading, please just ditch the bullshit where you talk about how pretty the girls are. You're clearly intelligent and worldly, can't you remove 'alienator of women' from your list of traits? Despite not being a woman, the (and I hesitate to call it misogyny, because it seems too strong) casual reference to sex is alienating to me. It just makes you sound like a 14 year old boy, or a 60 year old letch.
That's my only criticism and it's far outweighed by the awesomeness of the information and the enjoyment I got from that post.
Cheers.
OP if you're reading, please just ditch the bullshit where you talk about how pretty the girls are. You're clearly intelligent and worldly, can't you remove 'alienator of women' from your list of traits? Despite not being a woman, the (and I hesitate to call it misogyny, because it seems too strong) casual reference to sex is alienating to me. It just makes you sound like a 14 year old boy, or a 60 year old letch.
That's my only criticism and it's far outweighed by the awesomeness of the information and the enjoyment I got from that post.
Cheers.
Barbacoatl
Banned
Welcome to the world of tourism, where people don't go places to live like the locals (or save them from their human tragedy).
And I'm sorry but I see many similarities betwen the two regimes. They're not equal at all, but I do see the similarities.
Have you been to Cuba or NK?
Is this post in jest?
Yup.
Well, shades of gray is exactly that. Some things are more evil than others. That doesn't mean North Korea is less evil by using that term. But there's never a 100% true evil.
EvilKatarn
Member
Well said, Reuenthal. There's no sense in doubting how messed up North Korea is. If you do, then you're a nut.
Boy, what a world we live in. Can't even call a girl pretty.
Pound_lb003
Member
Nah man. Sorry, as I said obviously those passing comments are outweighed by the quality of the post. It just irks me, that they had to be made.
The difference between tourism in NK and most other countries is that you literally can't go outside of the strictly guided experience. If you try to travel anywhere else, you will be stopped. Of course most tourists in other countries go to tourist-y places, but it's not a guided experience set up to show the "best" part of the country, and you will be able to go other places if you want to.
I've never been to NK, no. I've always been interested in the country though, so I've read numerous books about it written by North Korean defectors, by academics who study the country and the UN reports on the state of the country. Since a trip to NK is completely staged I don't think I would learn anything from it, really.
As for Cuba under Castro. Well, it was always an oppressive regime. But the scale of oppression is so different that you can't really compare it, even when Cuba was at its worst. That's not to say that I was ever a fan of Castro, but North Korea is just on another level of pretty much anything when you think about the forced mass abortions, the prison camps, the "cult of the Kims" and the brainwashing etc. It's a staggeringly evil regime through and through.
If the Kims aren't 100% true evil, they're 99,9%. I'm well aware of the shades of gray in everything, but seriously, there's not much gray when we're talking about the Kims...
Pound_lb003
Member
When he says it's a shame you can't take photos of government workers because the traffic girls are 'gorgeous', and generalising about the beauty of all North Korean girls. I think it's a little different.
And yeah, there's nothing wrong with a little bit of thought being put into when you call a girl pretty.
Wow.
I've been to both, and seriously, it's not even remotley close (though to be fair, this is not something that I learned by travling, reading anything about those countries should tell you as much).
Cuba is less restrictive than China, NK is no even in the same spehere as anywhere I've even been to.
Chittagong
Gold Member
I think that's a fair criticism - I did ponder how (or if) to say it, not to sound creepy. Seems that did not work very well, although it was a honest compliment.
Sure - I didn't have as much exposure to locals as I would have in China, however got to experience three tube stations and a couple of tube cards during rush hour when they were incredibly crowded. So best to take it as a small anecdote.
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