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November Wrasslin |OT| CM Punk's Countdown to RESPECT

A

Alucard

Banned
SoulPlaya said:
I don't think that's fair. You can just assume that people don't watch TNA/ROH/etc. because they don't know them. Some people just enjoy the WWE style of wrestling versus the more indie style of moving from spot to spot. And yes, the main reason people watch WWE over the other guys is the production values, but that's a major thing. Pro wrestling isn't built simply on the in ring action. It's a spectacle. People want pyro, lighting, characters, story lines, etc. Now, it's the in ring action that ties it all together, but we can't just assume that just because it's indie, it's better wrestling.
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I'm not assuming it. WWE has some great wrestling from time to time, but if I want to see consistently good stuff, I'll watch indie promotions because I know I'm likely to see something different or something that will make me go "whoa!"

The idea that indie promotions are exclusively spot fests also needs to go away. There can be and is great storytelling in indy promotions.
 
S

sf2fanatic

Member
Alucard said:
shingo_doi_crop_340x234.jpg
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Any clip of this manuever. Looks tight!!
 
N

Net_Wrecker

Member
Jitters said:
What do you watch?
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As much Japanese stuff as I can, enough U.S. indies to keep up with what's going on, and speed though Raw and TNA weekly. More than enough. Honestly, if I had less time I'd probably keep up solely with New Japan, and just read everything else.

And if Chikara had TNA's budget and network deal, they'd be a legitimate alternative, and would probably find an untapped casual audience who'd watch just for the antics. Not to mention the crazy action figures and merch they could sell to children.
 
S

SoulPlaya

more money than God
Alucard said:
I'm not assuming it. WWE has some great wrestling from time to time, but if I want to see consistently good stuff, I'll watch indie promotions because I know I'm likely to see something different or something that will make me go "whoa!"

The idea that indie promotions are exclusively spot fests also needs to go away. There can be and is great storytelling in indy promotions.
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True, but it's also a matter of convenience. To find that great indie match that isn't a spotfest can be tough. With WWE, you just turn on the TV. Yeah, it'll likely suck, but it's free and it's there. Indies require a monetary commitment, and it may not deliver. There are so many of them, and they produce varying degrees of quality. Even promotions that focused on the more storytelling and less spotty side of wrestling are falling off in quality. I usually point to Japan as a last beacon, but that's not really indie, and the language barrier can be very hard to overcome.
 
S

strobogo

Banned
Davey is awful. There is no defending him. He's a terrible pro wrestler. He should just do MMA. He doesn't realize that fans liking stiff strikes =/= ridiculous no selling and random MMA spots that make no sense. Like a SSP into a kimura. The fuck is that shit? That's just stupid. Joe, Dragon, and Ki weren't just a bunch of stiff shots and athleticism (though Ki always skirted that like a lot closer than the other two). Davey is just gross.
 
A

Alucard

Banned
SoulPlaya said:
True, but it's also a matter of convenience. To find that great indie match that isn't a spotfest can be tough. With WWE, you just turn on the TV. Yeah, it'll likely suck, but it's free and it's there. Indies require a monetary commitment, and it may not deliver. There are so many of them, and they produce varying degrees of quality. Even promotions that focused on the more storytelling and less spotty side of wrestling are falling off in quality. I usually point to Japan as a last beacon, but that's not really indie, and the language barrier can be very hard to overcome.
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This is the attitude that has to go away. You have to know that, right?

Most of the indie PPVs I've watched have generally been of higher quality than WWE for the fact that you DO have to pay to watch them. Of course, you can also find some really good stuff on youtube and dailymotion, in which case you just need to follow your promotion of choice's website, or read some review sites and see which matches delivered. On most nights, you're guaranteed to see something you've never seen before on an indie show, and while I agree that the monetary commitment does suck sometimes, you can read up reviews to see what's worth checking out.

Oh, and Ring of Honor puts up their tv show for FREE on their website a few days after airing.

EDIT: Coming off as a lazy and tired fanboy. Weee. Should sleep.
 
P

-Pyromaniac-

Member
Net_Wrecker said:
As much Japanese stuff as I can, enough U.S. indies to keep up with what's going on, and speed though Raw and TNA weekly. More than enough. Honestly, if I had less time I'd probably keep up solely with New Japan, and just read everything else.

And if Chikara had TNA's budget and network deal, they'd be a legitimate alternative, and would probably find an untapped casual audience who'd watch just for the antics. Not to mention the crazy action figures and merch they could sell to children.
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you think you're cool?
 
A

Alucard

Banned
strobogo said:
Davey is awful. There is no defending him. He's a terrible pro wrestler. He should just do MMA. He doesn't realize that fans liking stiff strikes =/= ridiculous no selling and random MMA spots that make no sense. Like a SSP into a kimura. The fuck is that shit? That's just stupid. Joe, Dragon, and Ki weren't just a bunch of stiff shots and athleticism (though Ki always skirted that like a lot closer than the other two). Davey is just gross.
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Come on, man. You can't find anything redeeming about him at all? Surely, you can't say that there is nothing to like about him as a wrestler. That just seems exaggerated internet speak.
 
A

Alucard

Banned
Net_Wrecker said:
Kinda, yeah. But dat ain't got nothin' to do wit dis. Stay on topic.

And to Soul vs. Alucard: The "Production Values" vs. "Real Wrestling" debate only leads to bloodshed and hurt feelings. Tread carefully.
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I just got back into wrestling 3 years ago after almost a decade away. ROH and Dragon Gate got me back into it. I tried getting back into the WWE at that time too, but I quickly realized that the product was sub-standard. The women's division was in the dumps, the main event scene wasn't so hot, Raw was bland, and I just didn't care all that much. I feel the same way today, so I'm taking another break away from the WWE.
 
S

SoulPlaya

more money than God
Alucard said:
This is the attitude that has to go away. You have to know that, right?

Most of the indie PPVs I've watched have generally been of higher quality than WWE for the fact that you DO have to pay to watch them. Of course, you can also find some really good stuff on youtube and dailymotion, in which case you just need to follow your promotion of choice's website, or read some review sites and see which matches delivered. On most nights, you're guaranteed to see something you've never seen before on an indie show, and while I agree that the monetary commitment does suck sometimes, you can read up reviews to see what's worth checking out.

Oh, and Ring of Honor puts up their tv show for FREE on their website a few days after airing.
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Yeah, but ROH TV has been really disappointing, imo. BTW, it's NOT an attitude that needs to go away. People have limited income, and limited time. Most people don't spend money on indies because they're lazy, it's because they don't have the time to sit there and research shows, find out which ones are good or not (there are so many of them that this can be time consuming), then spend the money to watch them. Now, I'm not trying to be difficult here. I know there is plenty of GREAT wrestling out there, but I'm just trying to show the other side of the argument here. It's fine for hardcore fans, but you can't ask the casual WWE viewer (and most of them are just that) to now spend time and money researching and discovering indie shows.

On another level, it's just a waning of interest, personally. When I was younger, I used to be a hardcore fan. I had indie and Japanes VHS tapes of all this rare stuff, and I would look into wrestling from all over the world. Now, however, I'm older, and I just care a lot less lately. My interests have changed. I often wonder whether it's simply the product that's worse, or is it just that I've moved on. I used to watch every minute of wrestling that I could. Now, I can barely get through a RAW. I mean, the WWE product was worse in 2002 (and arguably 2003), but I was a bigger fan then than I am now.
 
N

Net_Wrecker

Member
Davey's alright in Japan, but his ROH marathon matches over the last year were just too much. Him and his cohorts show no restraint, and their psychology is often all over the place. He needs to ease up on the fighting spirit chain moves that come like 35 minutes into a match.
 
A

Alucard

Banned
SoulPlaya said:
Yeah, but ROH TV has been really disappointing, imo. BTW, it's NOT an attitude that needs to go away. People have limited income, and limited time. Most people don't spend money on indies because they're lazy, it's because they don't have the time to sit there and research shows, find out which ones are good or not (there are so many of them that this can be time consuming), then spend the money to watch them. Now, I'm not trying to be difficult here. I know there is plenty of GREAT wrestling out there, but I'm just trying to show the other side of the argument here. It's fine for hardcore fans, but you can't ask the casual WWE viewer (and most of them are just that) to now spend time and money researching and discovering indie shows.

On another level, it's just a waning of interest, personally. When I was younger, I used to be a hardcore fan. I had indie and Japanes VHS tapes of all this rare stuff, and I would look into wrestling from all over the world. Now, however, I'm older, and I just care a lot less lately. My interests have changed. I often wonder whether it's simply the product that's worse, or is it just that I've moved on. I used to watch every minute of wrestling that I could. Now, I can barely get through a RAW. I mean, the WWE product was worse in 2002 (and arguably 2003), but I was a bigger fan then than I am now.
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I'll use the cliche of saying that the WWE is like your abusive boyfriend that you keep thinking is going to change.

I also have far less time to spend on wrestling today, which is why I refuse to watch Impact and Raw after the past 2-3 weeks of hot garbage. It's just not worth it. You know what I do instead of watching Raw? I wash the dishes, take out the garbage, change my daughter's diaper, spend time with my family, and then in the 20-30 minutes of private time I get in the evenings, I just do random internet research, which sometimes involves checking up on wrestling results or finding out what's going on in the indies.

Honestly, for me, keeping current is something I just don't care about anymore. I'd rather order a show from 2008 that I know is going to be good than watch one from today that I HOPE is going to be good. I've been watching a Bret Hart match a night for the past two weeks now to end off my days. Why? Because it's better than watching a shitty Raw.

Yeah, this made little sense.
 
A

Alucard

Banned
P.S. Still pissed at how WWE handled Daniel Bryan in his first stint in the WWE. Expecting to be pissed further by the time his career is over.
 
A

Alucard

Banned
tm24 said:
Why would you be? He sure as hell wasnt or will he ever be pissed about it
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Just indie nerd rage, mostly. :( But if Bryan was fine with it then I guess I can be fine with it. Just think he's way too talented not to be in the main event scene on an almost-permanent basis.

I'm so tired. Time to sleep for 3 hours and try to work in the morning. Good times.
 
N

Net_Wrecker

Member
SoulPlaya said:
On another level, it's just a waning of interest, personally. When I was younger, I used to be a hardcore fan. I had indie and Japanes VHS tapes of all this rare stuff, and I would look into wrestling from all over the world. Now, however, I'm older, and I just care a lot less lately. My interests have changed. I often wonder whether it's simply the product that's worse, or is it just that I've moved on. I used to watch every minute of wrestling that I could. Now, I can barely get through a RAW. I mean, the WWE product was worse in 2002 (and arguably 2003), but I was a bigger fan then than I am now.
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I also find myself thinking I've "outgrown" the industry altogether until I still manage to get excited over a great match, or build, or the rare great promo and realize, "It's them, not me." What's actually happened is that my standards are higher now than in 2002. As bad as it might've been then, the rest of television has improved a lot in those 10 years, so the bad storytelling that might have gotten a pass from me in 98 grinds my gears in 2012. Not to mention my tastes being reshaped by all manner of higher quality entertainment in other mediums.

It's one thing to lose interest if we were in the middle of the Attitude Era 2.0, but it's another thing when Raw is often the worst show I watch every week. At least with the former I could bow out gracefully. Currently I'm deep on the road to "bitter ex-fan" and it feels bad man.
 
S

strobogo

Banned
I went through a big indie phase for awhile. I can still watch the occaisonal PWG show, but fuck, it just isn't fun to watch most of the time for me. It wears me out. I love the cruiser style and loved that about WCW more than anything else, but I can't make it through a whole Dragon Gate show. I've been a life long wrassle fan. I even bought some Japanese deathmatch tapes once. But indie wrestling is just so unappealing most of the time. They try to make pro wrestling an art form, which it is in a way, but they try to make it something it isn't. It's the same feeling I get when I watch WWE docs and guys talk about pro wrestling like this super important and serious thing, when it really is just something you can veg out to and have fun watching. It should be serious when it needs to be serious, but needs to be fun more often than not. Indie wrestling is terrible at balancing fun and serious. They go so far to the extreme on either side. And they don't seem to get that fun doesn't have to mean comedy match or crazy spot fest.

Every match doesn't have to be the best match ever. But even openers who aren't capable of that kind of match do that kind of shit constantly. It's just draining for 3 hours of it.
 
S

SoulPlaya

more money than God
Net_Wrecker said:
I also find myself thinking I've "outgrown" the industry altogether until I still manage to get excited over a great match, or build, or the rare great promo and realize, "It's them, not me." What's actually happened is that my standards are higher now than in 2002. As bad as it might've been then, the rest of television has improved a lot in those 10 years, so the bad storytelling that might have gotten a pass from me in 98 grinds my gears in 2012. Not to mention my tastes being reshaped by all manner of higher quality entertainment in other mediums.

It's one thing to lose interest if we were in the middle of the Attitude Era 2.0, but it's another thing when Raw is often the worst show I watch every week. At least with the former I could bow out gracefully. Currently I'm deep on the road to "bitter ex-fan" and it feels bad man.
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I've said it before, when Kane retires, I'm out. I would have never thought that in 2002. I was too big of a fan back then, but he's the last thing on the show that has a connection to a childlike obsession. After he's gone, I won't be able to feel like a kid watching it, and I simply won't care. I won't have the connection to the show, and I won't be involved enough to care. Yes, there's still Bryan (the only other guy on the show that I feel is worth watching consistently for), but who will he feud with? I'm waiting on them to give all these guys a chance, and they go with Ryback. If he's what they want in a future, I don't want to be a part of it.

strobogo said:
I went through a big indie phase for awhile. I can still watch the occaisonal PWG show, but fuck, it just isn't fun to watch most of the time for me. It wears me out. I love the cruiser style and loved that about WCW more than anything else, but I can't make it through a whole Dragon Gate show. I've been a life long wrassle fan. I even bought some Japanese deathmatch tapes once. But indie wrestling is just so unappealing most of the time. They try to make pro wrestling an art form, which it is in a way, but they try to make it something it isn't. It's the same feeling I get when I watch WWE docs and guys talk about pro wrestling like this super important and serious thing, when it really is just something you can veg out to and have fun watching. It should be serious when it needs to be serious, but needs to be fun more often than not. Indie wrestling is terrible at balancing fun and serious. They go so far to the extreme on either side. And they don't seem to get that fun doesn't have to mean comedy match or crazy spot fest.

Every match doesn't have to be the best match ever. But even openers who aren't capable of that kind of match do that kind of shit constantly. It's just draining for 3 hours of it.
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Very well said.
 
S

strobogo

Banned
Alucard said:
Come on, man. You can't find anything redeeming about him at all? Surely, you can't say that there is nothing to like about him as a wrestler. That just seems exaggerated internet speak.
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I don't think so. Maybe to other people, but not to me. He's in shape and really athletic. But as a pro wrestler, I hate to watch him. I hate to see him in the ring, and I hate to see him try promos. I just don't enjoy anything about him as a pro wrestler.
 
E

Enfinit

Member
SoulPlaya said:
I've said it before, when Kane retires, I'm out. I would have never thought that in 2002. I was too big of a fan back then, but he's the last thing on the show that has a connection to a childlike obsession. After he's gone, I won't be able to feel like a kid watching it, and I simply won't care. I won't have the connection to the show, and I won't be involved enough to care. Yes, there's still Bryan (the only other guy on the show that I feel is worth watching consistently for), but who will he feud with? I'm waiting on them to give all these guys a chance, and they go with Ryback. If he's what they want in a future, I don't want to be a part of it.
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It's got to get better eventually, right?
 
A

Alucard

Banned
Kyoufu said:
Nope. Eventually they could become smaller, like TNA or worse.
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The worst part is that the WWE is doing it to themselves. As someone said before, Vince is a millionaire who should be a billionaire, but he's made too many mistake with his product.
 
B

Brera

Banned
So it's Ryback vs Maddox tonight?

Most likely Maddox is going to win but how? I've only just got back into WWE 3 months ago and this angle has really got me excited.
 
K

Kyoufu

Member
Alucard said:
The worst part is that the WWE is doing it to themselves. As someone said before, Vince is a millionaire who should be a billionaire, but he's made too many mistake with his product.
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I feel that going PG with John Cena was the biggest mistake. I don't know how much money Cena has made Vince over the years but WWE was more profitable during the Attitude Era right?

Brera said:
So it's Ryback vs Maddox tonight?

Most likely Maddox is going to win but how? I've only just got back into WWE 3 months ago and this angle has really got me excited.
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Paul Heyman and/or Punk will help. They could have Heyman be the one that went behind Punk's back and had Maddox low blow Ryback at HIAC. Then Punk will be furious with Paul and tell him not to damage his integrity as the Best in the World. Punk turns on Paul to set up a Punk vs Brock feud at WM29!!!!!!!!11
 
B

British Monsoon

Member
Jesus Christ, reading you guys debate the merits and flaws of indie wrestling is PAINFUL. Frankly, I'm becoming entirely sick of the term 'indy wrestling' altogether. Sure, it's an apt description of promotions that are independently owned, but it's also a blanket term to cover dozens and dozens of promotions, each with their own ideas and designs on how wrestling should be presented. Let's stop generalising here. Not all indy wrestling is super serious. Not all indy wrestling is about move after move with no rhyme or reason. Not all indy wrestling throws selling and storytelling out of the window. As I always say, there's something for everyone in indy wrestling (except, maybe, for production value fetishists), you just have to have the time and inclination to seek it out.

Also, I'm no fan of Davey Richards, but again, the way you guys are going on about it you'd think that every one of his matches was an MMA-infused, 25 minute+ spot-fest, with little in the way of psychology or storytelling. He's a versatile wrestler, when he wants to be.

Finally, New Japan & CMLL announced the CMLL participants for the FantasticaMania 2013 shows this January;

  • Tecnicos
    • Mistico
    • La Sombra
    • Rush
    • La Mascara
    • Mascara Dorada
    • Maximo
    • Titan
    • Diamante

  • Rudos
    • Volador Jr.
    • Dragon Rojo Jr.
    • Rey Bucanero
    • Euforia
    • Mephisto
    • Misterioso Jr.
    • OKUMURA
 
D

Deleted member 47027

Unconfirmed Member
Before work this morning, filled with foolish hope, I tried my computer again. It's fried. I have no way to stream GWF and it pains me, because a lot of TLC (tender loving care!) went into this episode. Worse is that I'm not sure when I'll be able to replace it! So send out a little bit of hope that ill work something out, somehow.

Repeat for anyone who may have missed it, tonight's GWF is absolutely canceled.
 
L

Laserfrog

Member
Sunflower said:
Before work this morning, filled with foolish hope, I tried my computer again. It's fried. I have no way to stream GWF and it pains me, because a lot of TLC (tender loving care!) went into this episode. Worse is that I'm not sure when I'll be able to replace it! So send out a little bit of hope that ill work something out, somehow.

Repeat for anyone who may have missed it, tonight's GWF is absolutely canceled.
Click to expand...

:( Quick somebody send an emergency replacement motherboard.
 
D

Deleted member 47027

Unconfirmed Member
Alright was it you Laser? I managed to have a miracle happen and get my machine booted - but if I lose power, even for a second, it's hosed. Let's keep our fingers crossed. Here's what's up for those who do tech shit as well:

Basically on bootup, when exiting the BIOS or when launching Windows, the power just dies. It's not the PSU as I've swapped it with others, but doing a TON of research on my phone last night led me to believe it's the mobo - and it is an older computer, so it's time. There's nothing else I can do about it - but I got lucky. As I was walking out the door today, I gave it one last shot, and it went into Windows. So I'm in. And holding steady. Monitoring it remotely as I'm already shopping around. Ugh!

Black Republican said:
can anyone sum up what i missed the last 3 months on Raw?
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Uh, well... CM Punk had to fight Ryback, and won via ref shenanigans that we're supposed to get a payoff for tonight with the ref vs Ryback, there's a very poorly done "sexual relations" angle going on, and WWE will probably drop a handful of angles if not all of them because they paint themselves into a corner.

3MB is one to watch though. You'll like 3MB. 3MB is great.
 
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