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[JoshuaJSlone]

Top 20 is up!

Pick up the pace, Mario, you barely make up 1/3 of the list.

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

No, that's too facile an analogy. It's not about the technology specs: it's about the philosophies the Wii espouses. One of those philosophies happens to be "Better technology does not make better games." Most major developers today have built their careers in no small part on their ability to produce striking graphics and visuals. A system which suggests that this skill is entirely or mostly useless essentially negates one of their most fundamental skills.

Again, using my analogy from before, a Football player (I'm talking about Soccer for Americans) needs agile, extremely coordinated feet. One might even call it the dominant characteristic of succesful Soccer players. If I make the switch to basketball, I wouldn't say that this skill is completely meaningless, but certainly it's profoundly less important. You need to rely far more on hand coordination, a skill which Soccer players would have little reason to cultivate.

Here's another example: consider Mario Kart. One of the primary complaints reviewers had about the game is that it is too luck based, that people in the back can get extremely potent power ups that rocket them to the front, without any real skill involved. They view this as a down side. However, I think it's very clear that most Mario Kart purchasers view this exact same quality as a good thing, because it facilitates playing together. People who stink can play with people who are great and still have some chance of winning. In other words, the precise qualities that "core" gamers and developers would dislike and avoid are qualities that many Wii gamers actively seek out. You can imagine the difficulty in reconciling such a dilemma.

So, the characteristics that make a good developer on the Wii are different (such as the high end grahpics example) and the qualities that make a good game are different on the Wii (such as Mario Kart's luck). This is like a very tall basketball player moving to Soccer: his innate physical characteristics are no longer advantageous -- in fact, it's probably better to be stout in Soccer -- and the extremely specific hand coordination skills he's spent decades developing are completely meaningless.

I say this every month. You guys are getting far too ahead of yourselves where the Wii's software situation is concerned.

While I agree in theory with what you're saying Opiate, where it falls a part in practice is the assumption that only these types of games can sell on the Wii.

Developers' current philosophies on game principle are not what's preventing them from selling games on the Wii. It is what's preventing them from selling upwards of 10-20 million units of individual software titles, or achieving typically Nintendo like sales.

The problem with third parties from the beginning has been the assumption that the console is a golden goose that will sell anything; as long as Nintendo makes it. The "brand" talk, that should have been destroyed once the Playstation 3 fell from grace in 2006 - has been attributed to the Wii's ascension. 3rd parties constantly attest to this in their PR statements, literature, and representative quotes;
"We can't compete with Nintendo"
"Wii gamers are too hard to figure out"
"Wii gamers only want Nintendo titles"

Are all self fulfilling prophecies because from the beginning, this is what was presumed of the Wii.

Now 3 years in, the idea that there's some magic formula, or that there aren't enough "core gamers" to facilitate sales on the system vs. the 360 or PS3, or that the Nintendo brand was always stong despite the GameCube being an abject failure last generation are all avoiding the real problem: that developers have and will continue to reap what they sow. This is the ONLY explanation that explains everything; the CoD WaW Wii sales, Monster Hunter's Japanese success, the bombing of multiple poorly marketed titles, the milquetoast success of the Conduit, Red Steel, RRR and Shaun White doing well while Far Cry and Partiez games tanked, everything.

 

[Jinaar]

Wow... go Scribblenauts! Released in Sept and still in the top 20. (obviously people, when buying 3 Million DSs in DEC, buy games with it too! Nice showing, 5th Cell!

 

[scitek]

My opinion one the Wii 3rd party games issue is that there aren't many good 3rd party games on Wii because developers don't want to develop for the Wii.
The different economic arguments for and against (3rd party games don't sell well on Wii, Wii has the largest userbase by far) are second place to that.




The teams that made Assasin's Creed/Fallout 3/MW2 didn't make those games for the Wii because they didn't want to, because they want their games to utilize the benefits of the HD consoles (better graphics/sound/physics, larger worlds, better online) and value those benefits over the motion controls of the Wii, in terms of the vision for the game they are making. Since there is still a healthy market on the HD systems, the publishers allow developers to act on their wishes and make their AAA games on the HD systems, and that's how we come to this situation. The Wii at best gets a 2nd grade port or spinoff, that obviously doesn't compare to the 'true' game and so has dissppointing sales.

It has everything to do with money. Developers don't get to pick and choose what consoles they want to make games for unless they have a status like that of Infinity Ward or Valve. The reality is that games like Assassin's Creed have already proven to be a safer bet on the HD consoles than on the Wii, so since its a genre that deviates very little from the formulas of the past decade, it's relatively risk-free. Add to that the fact that they can launch it on three platforms instead of one, and you have the reason for those games not being on the Wii. It's not bias or fanboyism or anything else like that, it's money plain and simple.

 

[boiled goose]

I don't really disagree with any of this, but it's probably worth pointing out that I intended my analogy to apply to both developers and publishers. Let me elaborate.

Looking at my example plucked from EEDAR, we can see that heavy sequalization on the Wii doesn't seem to be nearly as succesful as it is on the PS3 or 360.

As a well established publisher, this is a problem. EA built their vast empire on yearly sequalization -- Need for Speed, Madden, Fifa, and Medal of Honor are great examples. Which is to say, the exact strategy that built their empire is now hurting them.

That's a very powerful problem: that which is now hurting you was once your strongest trait. People, and organizations like major publishers, are reluctant to change in general. You can imagine how difficult it is to abandon the quality that made you strong in the first place. Even if it's killing you.

I'm not at all exaggerating when I say entire civilizations have died out because of this natural human tendency. So really, I agree that most of these wounds for third parties are self inflicted, but I'd argue that these wounds are also entirely understandable. It's simply very hard to suddenly start thinking differently up and down the entire production process (publishing, development, etc).

Another factor to consider for evaluating the sequels of wii games is disappointment with the original title. While sometimes the sequels of these games usually improved upon the original, the original was usually a tad (or very) disappointing...

I would include Rayman RR, RE:UC, Deca sports, wii ski, game party etc. heck i would even include boom blox 1 and NMH to a degree in this category.

If you leave a bad (or meh) first impression, consumers will most likely not come back. Especially casual consumers who have been on the fence about videogames in the first place and are probably not seeking information about the sequel improvements as actively.

We shall see how Red steel 2, no more heroes 2 do.... (love NMH btw, but it is understandable how some ppl could find the first game disappointing)

It completely baffles me how well Assassins Creed 2 is selling after the turd that was AC1. It makes me really question the taste of "core" gamers... Are flashy graphics and hype really enough a distraction for core gamers to overlook fundamental flaws in a terrible game? (have not played AC2, but AC1 was a piece of shit)

 

[Kintaro]

No matter how much Nintendo wants it, the Wii does NOT exist in a vacuum. Its games are compared to the games of the HD systems, if not in the eyes of consumers then definately in the eyes of developers. Making PS2 games didn't feel outdated, making Wii games does.

Making tons of money is always in style. Just ask...uh, and....uh....well, Nintendo. :lol

 

[farnham]

It has everything to do with money. Developers don't get to pick and choose what consoles they want to make games for unless they have a status like that of Infinity Ward or Valve. The reality is that games like Assassin's Creed have already proven to be a safer bet on the HD consoles than on the Wii, so since its a genre that deviates very little from the formulas of the past decade, it's relatively risk-free. Add to that the fact that they can launch it on three platforms instead of one, and you have the reason for those games not being on the Wii. It's not bias or fanboyism or anything else like that, it's money plain and simple.

huh

since i have checked assassins creed was never ever ported on wii.. how does anyone even know..? in fact there was almost no major ubi soft effort on the wii.. and their thrown together dance game almost sold as much as assassins creed 2 on PS3..

 

[The Faceless Master]

Making tons of money is always in style. Just ask...uh, and....uh....well, Nintendo. :lol

it must be about pride.

devs would rather be unemployed than have wii games on their resume.

 

[farnham]

"We can't compete with Nintendo"
"Wii gamers are too hard to figure out"
"Wii gamers only want Nintendo titles"

in which industry companies go away with this..? (outside of the OS industry maybe)


imagine quotes like this..

we wont compete with apple because we cant beat iphone and ipod..

we wont compete with disney because we cant beat pixar...

we wont compete with mc donalds because we cant beat the big mac sales..

 

[ShockingAlberto]

The physics argument always gets me

Mostly because the only game that's done anything fundamental with physics is Boom Blox.

 

[woodypop]

Just Dance #20?

RRRGH

I'd like to say I contributed, but I think I bought my copy in November. :lol

 

[a Master Ninja]

On the off chance that my question got buried on page 5 rather than nobody knowing the answer:

Does anybody with the full numbers know if enough people broke street date with Bayonetta that we got some numbers for it?

 

[AnimeTheme]

The problem with third parties from the beginning has been the assumption that the console is a golden goose that will sell anything; as long as Nintendo makes it. The "brand" talk, that should have been destroyed once the Playstation 3 fell from grace in 2006 - has been attributed to the Wii's ascension. 3rd parties constantly attest to this in their PR statements, literature, and representative quotes;
"We can't compete with Nintendo"
"Wii gamers are too hard to figure out"
"Wii gamers only want Nintendo titles"

Are all self fulfilling prophecies because from the beginning, this is what was presumed of the Wii.

It will be very interesting if there can be some kind of survey on the brand awareness of Wii customers and the importance of such awareness in deciding which games to buy.

 

[savor100]

Top 20 is up!

Nintendo > the world

 

[The Interrobanger]

I can only speak for myself, but if the Wii had the graphical chops to hang around with the HD systems I'd be much more excited for it's offerings than I currently am. It is by far the #1 reason I haven't bought anything for it in well over a year and it's not even hooked up to my TV at the moment.

In fact, I've been passing up Wii games that I'm positive I would enjoy (Muramasa, Boy and his Blob, Little King's Story) in favor of 360/PS3 games that I'm not even sure are my thing (Far Cry 2, Red Faction: Guerrilla, God of War Collection, Borderlands) purely because I insist on that visual wow factor to go along with a solid experience.

I just wish Galaxy 2 and Zelda: Wii weren't coming otherwise I'd sell it...

 

[selig]

just a small question to all the people who say 3rd parties doing it wrong:

how many of the ~4 Wiis sold this month, were sold to actual gamers who care about games and buy many games per year, like lets say the PS360 owners?

All those Big 3rd party devs like Rockstar, EA, Ubisoft, Sega, Capcom etc. make gamer games like Ubisoft said. Now i don't think many gamers bought a Wii basically because they know there is not much announced to look forward for. So if you are a company like one of those and make core games and you know the core gamers are on the PS360 platforms, why should you care how much Nintendo is selling? My these is that almost every core gamer who was really interested in a Wii did already buy one before Dec. 09 because the Wii market just doesnt have such a high entrance barrier.

Even if the Wii would have sold 10 million systems this month but the core gamers were still on the other two platforms, the 3rd parties would not care because they dont (probably can't) make the right products, which is not core games like we already see in x cases, for the Wii audience.

Easy answer: Reality knows no such thing as gamer and non-gamer. GTA3 didnt sell so big back then because of gamers. Neither did other big blockbuster-games.

EDIT:

Lol, i just thought about it:
Imagine the Wii was technically on par with 360. It would have MW2, AC2, Batman, Darksiders, Bayonette and all the other big hyped hd-games...lol, that´d be the true beginning of a Nintendo monopoly. Trolls should thank god that Nintendo didnt include HD to their system

 

[BowieZ]

Most major developers today have built their careers in no small part on their ability to produce striking graphics and visuals. A system which suggests that this skill is entirely or mostly useless essentially negates one of their most fundamental skills.

It's not up to developers, usually, it's up to publishers. And the Wii is powerful enough to put graphical skills to good use.

...

Well, yes. But to extend it a bit - most major developers today have built their careers in no small part on their ability to produce striking graphics and visuals on systems with no more graphical prowess than the Wii has.

Exactly... :/

Here's another example: consider Mario Kart. One of the primary complaints reviewers had about the game is that it is too luck based, that people in the back can get extremely potent power ups that rocket them to the front, without any real skill involved. They view this as a down side. However, I think it's very clear that most Mario Kart purchasers view this exact same quality as a good thing, because it facilitates playing together. People who stink can play with people who are great and still have some chance of winning. In other words, the precise qualities that "core" gamers and developers would dislike and avoid are qualities that many Wii gamers actively seek out. You can imagine the difficulty in reconciling such a dilemma.

Another reason reviewers suck. Mario Kart is anything but luck based. As someone who regularly races at an elite level (9500-9999 point range), I can guarantee you that the only way luck plays a factor is if everyone is at an equal skill level and the only way to divide up 12 incredibly skilled racers is by luck. But the game is not based on luck.

People bought Mario Kart Wii cos they just wanted a fucking decent racer, and that happened to be the one advertised the most and with the most familiar and trustworthy brandname. There's nothing casual about the game. In fact, it seems like you've never played Wii at all and are grossly mischaracterising the gaming experiences to be had on the console. You're saying that because YOU think (and the reviewers think) there's a luck component in Mario Kart Wii... that "hardcore" game designers are unable to produce graphically rich skill based racers for the Wii... because people don't want to race with any skill?

 

[manueldelalas]

How is just dance? IGN scored it a solid 2.0; any impressions about this new Nintendo quality title?

 

[mclem]

motherfuckers dont need more than one of these games. mario kart will never get a sequel on wii as with many others. wii sports only got a sequel because of motion plus.

Not sure about the bolded. I think the point is more that it's *samey* sequels that don't work; Wii Sports Resort managed to distinguish itself not just with the use of MotionPlus but also through having a very different range of sports to the original (plus a few popular reappearances, of course). I'm sure a third Wii Sports with, say, ten *more* new sports would do the trick (Wii Sports Alpine?), even without being reliant on a new piece of hardware.

 

[farnham]

How is just dance? IGN scored it a solid 2.0; any impressions about this new Nintendo quality title?

thats a bold statement

im really not an IGN believer or anything

but i wouldnt call nintendo games 2.0 out of 10 bad in average

Spoiler

lol @ yves guilmont

 

[botticus]

In fact, I've been passing up Wii games that I'm positive I would enjoy (Muramasa, Boy and his Blob, Little King's Story) in favor of 360/PS3 games that I'm not even sure are my thing (Far Cry 2, Red Faction: Guerrilla, God of War Collection, Borderlands) purely because I insist on that visual wow factor to go along with a solid experience.

The sad thing about that is, while I am the complete opposite and I'm enjoying PS1 games on my HDTV right now, Boy and his Blob (and people tell me Muramasa) looks amazing. Unless you're speaking in terms of realism, in which case you will never be impressed.

 

[boiled goose]

Would like to point out that NSMBwii and Mario Kart wii are not really casual games, but core games. They appeal to a larger audience than say Fallout, but in terms of gameplay they are not the same as Wii sports resort.

My mom, dad, and sister cant really play and enjoy NSMBwii the same way they can play Wii sports resort.

So, at least nintendo can tap into the "core game" market on the wii. it would be interesting to find out how nintendo decides what games to push and which to not push. excitebots sent to die even though i think a lot of the same ppl that play mario kart wii would really enjoy excitebots. is the power of mario alone really that great?

 

[Opiate]

Okay, I'm leaving Sales Age for a while, guys. Not because I don't enjoy the discussions, or because there is nothing interesting left to talk about -- but because the threads are effectively inundated with outrage at how the Wii has been treated by third parties.

I'm not saying the Wii has been treated properly by any means: I completely agree that huge opportunities have been missed. But this incessant attempt to show how stupid, stupid, stupid! these third parties are is simply unproductive. Virtually everyone (who is reasonable) seems to agree that huge chances for profits have been missed this generation.

We understand. Third parties messed up, that's clear. But what's also clear is that they're moving on, regardless of how many opportunities they have missed -- or how many opportunities still exist. Regardless of all that, third parties are making it quite clear that it's over.

So stop beating your head against a wall trying to convince everyone, because most of us generally agree. Basically, all that's left is to haggle over small details: how much of the missed opportunities are the fault of third parties? How much more could Nintendo have done? Is it 80% the fault of third parties? 70%?

We'll never really answer these types of broad, sweeping questions with that sort of specificity. And again, the basic layout of the market isn't changing. So just move on, and start asking new questions. What, if anything, can Nintendo do to lure third parties back next generation? Should Nintendo begin to expand out in to more "core" genres, or should they continue focusing most of their new IPs on the expanded audience? Can third parties make a profit with an even more HD focused approach?

Look to the future, guys, because the present is pretty much set. Regardless of how stupid you may think it is, complaining about stupidity isn't going to change anything.

I'll take a breather and be back in a couple weeks.

 

[jibblypop]

Top 20 is up!

What a massacre. 360/PS3 audience should buy more games. I'm just kidding of course but I've heard the reverse argument so many times and just look at that chart.

If publishers complain about having to compete with Nintendo for taking all the wii sales then shouldn't they complain about having to compete with Call of Duty and Madden taking all the HD sales? The truth is that no matter where you release a game, you are ALWAYS competing with the most popular games. That is how competition works.

 

[farnham]

Easy answer: Reality knows no such thing as gamer and non-gamer. GTA3 didnt sell so big back then because of gamers. Neither did other big blockbuster-games.

EDIT:

Lol, i just thought about it:
Imagine the Wii was technically on par with 360. It would have MW2, AC2, Batman, Darksiders, Bayonette and all the other big hyped hd-games...lol, that´d be the true beginning of a Nintendo monopoly. Trolls should thank god that Nintendo didnt include HD to their system

no... the wii did sell because it was cheap.. and it wouldnt have been cheap if it was HD... your whole scenario does not work

 

[obaidr]

no... the wii did sell because it was cheap.. and it wouldnt have been cheap if it was HD... your whole scenario does not work

this. Dont forget Nintendo is still selling almost the same hardware as they sold with the gamecube.

 

[BowieZ]

I don't really disagree with any of this, but it's probably worth pointing out that I intended my analogy to apply to both developers and publishers. Let me elaborate.

Looking at my example plucked from EEDAR, we can see that heavy sequalization on the Wii doesn't seem to be nearly as succesful as it is on the PS3 or 360.

As a well established publisher, this is a problem. EA built their vast empire on yearly sequalization -- Need for Speed, Madden, Fifa, and Medal of Honor are great examples. Which is to say, the exact strategy that built their empire is now hurting them.

That's a very powerful problem: that which is now hurting you was once your strongest trait. People, and organizations like major publishers, are reluctant to change in general. You can imagine how difficult it is to abandon the quality that made you strong in the first place. Even if it's killing you.

I'm not at all exaggerating when I say entire civilizations have died out because of this natural human tendency. So really, I agree that most of these wounds for third parties are self inflicted, but I'd argue that these wounds are also entirely understandable. It's simply very hard to suddenly start thinking differently up and down the entire production process (publishing, development, etc).

Yeah, well that's pretty much it. Best explanation so far. Does anyone disagree with this?

 

[ratcliffja]

I can only speak for myself, but if the Wii had the graphical chops to hang around with the HD systems I'd be much more excited for it's offerings than I currently am. It is by far the #1 reason I haven't bought anything for it in well over a year and it's not even hooked up to my TV at the moment.

In fact, I've been passing up Wii games that I'm positive I would enjoy (Muramasa, Boy and his Blob, Little King's Story) in favor of 360/PS3 games that I'm not even sure are my thing (Far Cry 2, Red Faction: Guerrilla, God of War Collection, Borderlands) purely because I insist on that visual wow factor to go along with a solid experience.

I just wish Galaxy 2 and Zelda: Wii weren't coming otherwise I'd sell it...

If you pass up on games like Muramasa and A Boy and His Blob because you don't think they'll visually wow you, then you're in for a surprise. They are both beautiful games, especially the former, even if they're in SD.

 

[Jocchan]

it must be about pride.

devs would rather be unemployed than have wii games on their resume.

The sad part is that many of them had this wish granted :/

The physics argument always gets me

Mostly because the only game that's done anything fundamental with physics is Dudebro.

*whistles*

Okay, I'm leaving Sales Age for a while, guys. Not because I don't enjoy the discussions, or because there is nothing interesting left to talk about -- but because the threads are effectively inundated with outrage at how the Wii has been treated by third parties.

I'm not saying the Wii has been treated properly by any means: I completely agree that huge opportunities have been missed. But this incessant attempt to show how stupid, stupid, stupid! these third parties are is simply unproductive. Virtually everyone (who is reasonable) seems to agree that huge chances for profits have been missed this generation.

We understand. Third parties messed up, that's clear. But what's also clear is that they're moving on, regardless of how many opportunities they have missed -- or how many opportunities still exist. Regardless of all that, third parties are making it quite clear that it's over.

So stop beating your head against a wall trying to convince everyone, because most of us generally agree. Basically, all that's left is to haggle over small details: how much of the missed opportunities are the fault of third parties? How much more could Nintendo have done? Is it 80% the fault of third parties? 70%?

We'll never really answer these types of broad, sweeping questions with that sort of specificity. And again, the basic layout of the market isn't changing. So just move on, and start asking new questions. What, if anything, can Nintendo do to lure third parties back next generation? Should Nintendo begin to expand out in to more "core" genres, or should they continue focusing most of their new IPs on the expanded audience? Can third parties make a profit with an even more HD focused approach?

Look to the future, guys, because the present is pretty much set. Regardless of how stupid you may think it is. Complaining about stupidity isn't going to change anything.

No need to "leave" man, unless you're really bored with the discussion.
Some pretty interesting threads have been touched (why do exactly third party Wii games bomb? what repercussions will have the current situation come next generation? how relevant has multiple platform ownership become?).
I agree with most of what you said, and I agree a lot of this stuff has been discussed to death, but I don't think leaving would benefit anyone: moving the discussion towards some of the most interesting threads could be much more useful.

 

[The Interrobanger]

The sad thing about that is, while I am the complete opposite and I'm enjoying PS1 games on my HDTV right now, Boy and his Blob (and people tell me Muramasa) looks amazing. Unless you're speaking in terms of realism, in which case you will never be impressed.

If you pass up on games like Muramasa and A Boy and His Blob because you don't think they'll visually wow you, then you're in for a surprise. They are both beautiful games, especially the former, even if they're in SD.

You're right, but the fact that they're on the Wii, a system that's boxed up in my closet through the fault of Nintendo not keeping their hardware up with the times and other developers half-assing development, instantly puts a damper on any hype I may have for them.

If they were on an HD system, I'd be all over them. Realistic or stylized, doesn't matter.

 

[boiled goose]

I can only speak for myself, but if the Wii had the graphical chops to hang around with the HD systems I'd be much more excited for it's offerings than I currently am. It is by far the #1 reason I haven't bought anything for it in well over a year and it's not even hooked up to my TV at the moment.

In fact, I've been passing up Wii games that I'm positive I would enjoy (Muramasa, Boy and his Blob, Little King's Story) in favor of 360/PS3 games that I'm not even sure are my thing (Far Cry 2, Red Faction: Guerrilla, God of War Collection, Borderlands) purely because I insist on that visual wow factor to go along with a solid experience.

I just wish Galaxy 2 and Zelda: Wii weren't coming otherwise I'd sell it...

I guess I am simply not a graphics whore. Generational differences in Graphics arent even a factor for me to deciding what game to play next on my gaming PC. Decided to play Fate of Atlantis before Dead Space recently...

I think those wii games you mention all look great. they look like wii games, but they look good. SMB3 looks like an NES game, but it looks good.


Great thing about Wii gaming, you can usually pick up a lot of games on the cheap a few months after release. So use your lack of hype to wait for these games to drop in price and then buy then at better value prices. Think of it in the same way you pick up and play that old PS2 or GC game you never got around to playing last gen.
Are you telling me you never play last gen games anymore?

 

[manueldelalas]

It will be very interesting if there can be some kind of survey on the brand awareness of Wii customers and the importance of such awareness in deciding which games to buy.

Well after so many shitty titles from third parties, it's no wonder people will not give them a second chance.

Many Wii owners are first time console buyers and/or have almost no knowledge about gaming at all. So they buy a game labeled "Nintendo" at the front and they see something filled with quality and care; but then they buy third parties games and they get half assed game with dubious quality, and they read the box and it says: "Take Two", "Activision", "Ubisoft", etc.

People are not stupid, they learn this quickly and stop buying games of that particular brand, and I'm sure they are looking more and more to buy Nintendo only software, because third parties alienated themselves from the Wii market.

Why would someone that bought Deca Sports 1 buy Deca Sports 2? So in the Wii you see a lot of games selling more than a million copies but then it's sequel bombs, even though the sequel is probably a lot more polished (and I'm sure someone says that Wii gamers don't care about quality).

You think someone will buy the inevitable Just Dance 2 after playing Just Dance 1?

Ubisoft whines that no one bought Raving Rabbids supermarket whatever, but after three mini games compilations, who would? You milk a franchise and you loose it, that's the law in videogames.

So I think if we asked now Wii owners, I think most of them would look mostly for Nintendo games, because it's the only label in the box that ensures a quality product and not a quick cash in.

 

[farnham]

You're right, but the fact that they're on the Wii, a system that's boxed up in my closet through the fault of Nintendo not keeping their hardware up with the times and other developers half-assing development, instantly puts a damper on any hype I may have for them.

If they were on an HD system, I'd be all over them. Realistic or stylized, doesn't matter.

in other words you are biased against the system..

 

[red shoe paul]

in other words you are biased against the system..

Or it's because he doesn't have a Wii? No idea..

 

[Kintaro]

What, if anything, can Nintendo do to lure third parties back next generation? Should Nintendo begin to expand out in to more "core" genres, or should they continue focusing most of their new IPs on the expanded audience? Can third parties make a profit with an even more HD focused approach?

Look to the future, guys, because the present is pretty much set. Regardless of how stupid you may think it is. Complaining about stupidity isn't going to change anything.

Complaining about stupidity is amusing.

Ask yourself your own question. Nintendo has tried courting 3rd parties in the past and they're scoffed at. This time around, all they have done is create the most successful console platform and handheld platform worldwide. What more could a 3rd party want than a gigantic userbase in which to sell its game to? What bigger present could you ask for? To feel needed and loved or something? Are their feelings hurt?

I'm sure 5th Cell is saying "Thank you!" so much right now because of the userbase created on the DS. I'm sure Level 5 is saying the same.

You're right. The present is set. Nintendo lords over the entire industry while everyone else scrambles for crumbs. Lets look to the future. Tomorrow is the future. Tomorrow, someone, somewhere from a major 3rd party should probably say "Fuck it" and put a major franchise on the system exclusively and support it. What do they have to lose that they wouldn't be losing on the HD twins? At least this way, you only pay one set of licensing fees instead of two. :lol

 

[selig]

The physics argument always gets me

Mostly because the only game that's done anything fundamental with physics is Boom Blox.

haha, yeah. that´s because the kind of physics hd-fans always talk about is acutally part of the visuals. Which I dont consider "using physics", if it´s just for visual purposes. We could also talk about the myth of superior A.I. on the HD-systems...

 

[Somnid]

It's really amazing, Nintendo holds more power in this industry than the entirety of the rest of the industry combined.

It makes so many things seem so insignificant.

 

[Kifimbo]

Yeah, well that's pretty much it. Best explanation so far. Does anyone disagree with this?

No I agree. That's why among the top 100 companies from a century ago, there are only 3-5 left in the same top 100 today. They are big ships and changing direction is not easy. When you make mistakes, or when you miss the boat on a new technology, it's really hard to recover.

 

[boiled goose]

I'm not saying the Wii has been treated properly by any means: I completely agree that huge opportunities have been missed. But this incessant attempt to show how stupid, stupid, stupid! these third parties are is simply unproductive. Virtually everyone (who is reasonable) seems to agree that huge chances for profits have been missed this generation.

We understand. Third parties messed up, that's clear. But what's also clear is that they're moving on, regardless of how many opportunities they have missed -- or how many opportunities still exist. Regardless of all that, third parties are making it quite clear that it's over.

So stop beating your head against a wall trying to convince everyone, because most of us generally agree. Basically, all that's left is to haggle over small details: how much of the missed opportunities are the fault of third parties? How much more could Nintendo have done? Is it 80% the fault of third parties? 70%?

We'll never really answer these types of broad, sweeping questions with that sort of specificity. And again, the basic layout of the market isn't changing. So just move on, and start asking new questions. What, if anything, can Nintendo do to lure third parties back next generation? Should Nintendo begin to expand out in to more "core" genres, or should they continue focusing most of their new IPs on the expanded audience? Can third parties make a profit with an even more HD focused approach?

Look to the future, guys, because the present is pretty much set. Regardless of how stupid you may think it is, complaining about stupidity isn't going to change anything.

Truth has been spoken

What a massacre. 360/PS3 audience should buy more games. I'm just kidding of course but I've heard the reverse argument so many times and just look at that chart.

If publishers complain about having to compete with Nintendo for taking all the wii sales then shouldn't they complain about having to compete with Call of Duty and Madden taking all the HD sales? The truth is that no matter where you release a game, you are ALWAYS competing with the most popular games. That is how competition works.

More truth. Big Games = big sales.

 

[KuwabaraTheMan]

Six DS games in the Top 20 is unreal. That's a great performance for Scribblenauts, too.

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

Okay, I'm leaving Sales Age for a while, guys. Not because I don't enjoy the discussions, or because there is nothing interesting left to talk about -- but because the threads are effectively inundated with outrage at how the Wii has been treated by third parties.

I'm not saying the Wii has been treated properly by any means: I completely agree that huge opportunities have been missed. But this incessant attempt to show how stupid, stupid, stupid! these third parties are is simply unproductive. Virtually everyone (who is reasonable) seems to agree that huge chances for profits have been missed this generation.

We understand. Third parties messed up, that's clear. But what's also clear is that they're moving on, regardless of how many opportunities they have missed -- or how many opportunities still exist. Regardless of all that, third parties are making it quite clear that it's over.

So stop beating your head against a wall trying to convince everyone, because most of us generally agree. Basically, all that's left is to haggle over small details: how much of the missed opportunities are the fault of third parties? How much more could Nintendo have done? Is it 80% the fault of third parties? 70%?

We'll never really answer these types of broad, sweeping questions with that sort of specificity. And again, the basic layout of the market isn't changing. So just move on, and start asking new questions. What, if anything, can Nintendo do to lure third parties back next generation? Should Nintendo begin to expand out in to more "core" genres, or should they continue focusing most of their new IPs on the expanded audience? Can third parties make a profit with an even more HD focused approach?

Look to the future, guys, because the present is pretty much set. Regardless of how stupid you may think it is. Complaining about stupidity isn't going to change anything.

Considering this was probably an indirect response to my post, I have pretty much given up on this generation as far as third parties understanding where their missteps have been with the Wii. The reason I even bothered to type up that post to begin with is to illustrate that it was one decision; that "the Wii is a fad" that has manifested itself into the problem we see today. In fact, I'd say it's safe to say that the only large company that DOESN'T consider it a fad is Nintendo, and as such their success is commensurate with their treatment of the console.

Because of this, I have and will contribute 100% of the blame to third parties. It is not Nintendo's responsibility to ensure third parties achieve success on the Wii. Third parties obviously don't want to, and have either given up on the console or resigned to moderate successes here and there. Could Nintendo do more to aid them? Of course, but what's in it for them? Nintendo is monstrously successful whether third parties live or die.

That's why I feel it is important to illustrate that the problem lies with third parties. Wii 2 in HD isn't going to fix things if third party devs continue to think they can shit out games. In my opinion, the answer to all the questions you posed in your post as it relates to them is the same; third parties must take the Wii's successor seriously. Period. If they don't, clearly nothing Nintendo can do will sway them.

As for Nintendo themselves, They are very clearly going to continue to manifest themselves in the way they have been doing. I'm sure this generation has taught them that the core's voice is louder than they anticipated, and they will react as such. However, I very much doubt that it will amount to much more than we've seen with the Wii. After all, Nintendo is only one company.

 

[theluma]

Holy freaking shit. So much money. Go Nintendo go.

 

[ksamedi]

Okay, I'm leaving Sales Age for a while, guys. Not because I don't enjoy the discussions, or because there is nothing interesting left to talk about -- but because the threads are effectively inundated with outrage at how the Wii has been treated by third parties.

I'm not saying the Wii has been treated properly by any means: I completely agree that huge opportunities have been missed. But this incessant attempt to show how stupid, stupid, stupid! these third parties are is simply unproductive. Virtually everyone (who is reasonable) seems to agree that huge chances for profits have been missed this generation.

We understand. Third parties messed up, that's clear. But what's also clear is that they're moving on, regardless of how many opportunities they have missed -- or how many opportunities still exist. Regardless of all that, third parties are making it quite clear that it's over.

So stop beating your head against a wall trying to convince everyone, because most of us generally agree. Basically, all that's left is to haggle over small details: how much of the missed opportunities are the fault of third parties? How much more could Nintendo have done? Is it 80% the fault of third parties? 70%?

We'll never really answer these types of broad, sweeping questions with that sort of specificity. And again, the basic layout of the market isn't changing. So just move on, and start asking new questions. What, if anything, can Nintendo do to lure third parties back next generation? Should Nintendo begin to expand out in to more "core" genres, or should they continue focusing most of their new IPs on the expanded audience? Can third parties make a profit with an even more HD focused approach?

Look to the future, guys, because the present is pretty much set. Regardless of how stupid you may think it is, complaining about stupidity isn't going to change anything.

I'll take a breather and be back in a couple weeks.

I think the third party situation is clear. Nintendo should create an environment where new third party studios who are still flexible can flourish. Isn't that a clear example of evolution theory? Adaptive flexible companies will survive in this environment and we will see in the coming years who that will be. But I thinks its inevitable that new serious players will grow out of this generation. Look at Level 5 in Japan, they are flourishing with their DS game sales. I think we will see more companies like these in the coming years.

 

[Sadist]

The sad part is that many of them had this wish granted :/

Irony in it's most pure form I'd say.

 

[woodypop]

How is just dance? IGN scored it a solid 2.0; any impressions about this new Nintendo quality title?

As an activity it's kind of fun: dancing all silly-like to licensed music. But it's not much of a game, as I find the scoring to be not very precise. Plus the package is rather bare-bones.

I wish it incorporated a camera like Your Shape does (also from Ubisoft), so you could compare yourself with the on-screen silhouette. Also, the option to DL new music and dance routines would have been nice. Maybe in a sequel?

As it is, I don't think it's worth the MSRP of $39.99. But if you can find it for under $20, pick it up if it sounds like your cup of tea.

 

[boiled goose]

Six DS games in the Top 20 is unreal. That's a great performance for Scribblenauts, too.

DS is a software monster. People sometimes doubt its power due to lack of games in the monthly top 10s.

 

[gamergirly]

Considering this was probably an indirect response to my post, I have pretty much given up on this generation as far as third parties understanding where their missteps have been with the Wii. The reason I even bothered to type up that post to begin with is to illustrate that it was one decision; that "the Wii is a fad" that has manifested itself into the problem we see today. In fact, I'd say it's safe to say that the only large company that DOESN'T consider it a fad is Nintendo, and as such their success is commensurate with their treatment of the console.

Because of this, I have and will contribute 100% of the blame to third parties. It is not Nintendo's responsibility to ensure third parties achieve success on the Wii. Third parties obviously don't want to, and have either given up on the console or resigned to moderate successes here and there. Could Nintendo do more to aid them? Of course, but what's in it for them? Nintendo is monstrously successful whether third parties live or die.

That's why I feel it is important to illustrate that the problem lies with third parties. Wii 2 in HD isn't going to fix things if third party devs continue to think they can shit out games. In my opinion, the answer to all the questions you posed in your post as it relates to them is the same; third parties must take the Wii's successor seriously. Period. If they don't, clearly nothing Nintendo can do will sway them.

As for Nintendo themselves, They are very clearly going to continue to manifest themselves in the way they have been doing. I'm sure this generation has taught them that the core's voice is louder than they anticipated, and they will react as such. However, I very much doubt that it will amount to much more than we've seen with the Wii. After all, Nintendo is only one company.

It makes you wonder. All of these thousands of people that keep getting laid off by 3rd party companies. Just how financially well are they doing by not capitalizing on the Wii? Maybe some of these people would still have a job if they had developed a Wii game instead

 

[mclem]

I'm sure 5th Cell is saying "Thank you!" so much right now because of the userbase created on the DS. I'm sure Level 5 is saying the same.

I do sometimes wonder if Level 5 might be one to break this trend, possibly playing around with the Wii a bit behind the scenes. Given that the DS has given them such creative freedom, and they've reaped the benefits, I'd regard them a third party developer particularly inclined to make some Wii titles - if they ever get some time in amongst all the Layton.

(Side point: If we assume the DS has a similar audience to the Wii, how come the iterative Layton sequels *haven't* shown such a decline that the EEDAR report was pointing out?)

And, of course, *someone* needs to develop DQX...

 

[jj984jj]

The top 20 made me say wow. I can't believe Scribblenauts is on it either. :lol

 

[theluma]

Iwata: *Laughs*

And man, Reggie could be laughing soon as well. MW2 on 360 really needs to watch it's back.

I'm just so fucking happy for NSMBWii.