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NPD Sales Results for December 2009

boiled goose

good with gravy
ksamedi said:
I think the third party situation is clear. Nintendo should create an environment where new third party studios who are still flexible can flourish. Isn't that a clear example of evolution theory? Adaptive flexible companies will survive in this environment and we will see in the coming years who that will be. But I thinks its inevitable that new serious players will grow out of this generation. Look at Level 5 in Japan, they are flourishing with their DS game sales. I think we will see more companies like these in the coming years.

Nintendo's mistake might have been not highlighting quality third party games enough. Microsoft does a great job through live, nintendo really doesnt do much to hype quality third party releases. It would be better for nintendo in the long term if consumers were generally more satisfied with their software purchases.

Boy and his blob, little king story, muramasa, zack and wiki, etc all could have benefitied from a bit more exposure. it also goes for some of the less known first party titles as well. Consumers that pick up excitebots or wario ware smooth moves would be more satisfied than those that picked up nitro bike and game party.

IMO this has been nintendo's biggest mistake this generation. not being very good at aiming its consumers to the quality games, whether first or third party.
 

Jokeropia

Member
marc^o^ said:
Wii outselling x360 3:1 this Christmas?

I called it last August :D :
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=17123682&postcount=1091
From that (July NPD) thread:
Omar Ismail said:
this could be one of the last month's the Wii outsells the 360 in the US.
:lol
hednik4am said:
People at work see the exact same thing when they buy there kid a Wii and they get bored with it (even with NSMBWII) and then te parents have buyers remorse. Not that its not a good system or inferior I just think it doesnt keep the kids wanting to come back for more.
Wii owners buy games at the same rate as 360 and PS3 owners, so there's no discernible trend of people getting bored with Wii.
pr0cs said:
I really don't see any non-Nintendo developer doing well on the Wii.
48l.jpg

obaidr said:
just a small question to all the people who say 3rd parties doing it wrong:

how many of the ~4 Wiis sold this month, were sold to actual gamers who care about games and buy many games per year, like lets say the PS360 owners?

All those Big 3rd party devs like Rockstar, EA, Ubisoft, Sega, Capcom etc. make gamer games like Ubisoft said. Now i don't think many gamers bought a Wii basically because they know there is not much announced to look forward for. So if you are a company like one of those and make core games and you know the core gamers are on the PS360 platforms, why should you care how much Nintendo is selling? My these is that almost every core gamer who was really interested in a Wii did already buy one before Dec. 09 because the Wii market just doesnt have such a high entrance barrier.

Even if the Wii would have sold 10 million systems this month but the core gamers were still on the other two platforms, the 3rd parties would not care because they dont (probably can't) make the right products, which is not core games like we already see in x cases, for the Wii audience.
This is an exceptionally stupid post, but I don't expect anything else from you. A tip for the future is to not pull fanboy statistics out of your ass when those statistics can be disproven with publicly available data.

Again, the average Wii owner buys games at the exact same rate as the average 360 and PS3 owner. I know you really don't want to believe this, but tough luck.
obaidr said:
No. The PS360 has a very high rate of core gamers. I would suggest something like 90% for the 360 and something like 80% for PS3 because of the Blueray player and its attractiveness for Movie only fans. The Wii on the other hand has, considering the very high number of systems out there, a very low number of core gamers, maybe 10-20% going by the sales numbers of the core games on the system.
Two in a row! :lol

Nintendo's core games outsell the top selling core games on 360 and PS3. Yet 10-20% of Wii's installed base is significantly less than 80% of the 360's installed base.
 

Tiktaalik

Member
Opiate said:
Okay, I'm leaving Sales Age for a while, guys. Not because I don't enjoy the discussions, or because there is nothing interesting left to talk about -- but because the threads are effectively inundated with outrage at how the Wii has been treated by third parties.

I'm not saying the Wii has been treated properly by any means: I completely agree that huge opportunities have been missed. But this incessant attempt to show how stupid, stupid, stupid! these third parties are is simply unproductive. Virtually everyone (who is reasonable) seems to agree that huge chances for profits have been missed this generation.

We understand. Third parties messed up, that's clear. But what's also clear is that they're moving on, regardless of how many opportunities they have missed -- or how many opportunities still exist. Regardless of all that, third parties are making it quite clear that it's over.

So stop beating your head against a wall trying to convince everyone, because most of us generally agree. Basically, all that's left is to haggle over small details: how much of the missed opportunities are the fault of third parties? How much more could Nintendo have done? Is it 80% the fault of third parties? 70%?

We'll never really answer these types of broad, sweeping questions with that sort of specificity. And again, the basic layout of the market isn't changing. So just move on, and start asking new questions. What, if anything, can Nintendo do to lure third parties back next generation? Should Nintendo begin to expand out in to more "core" genres, or should they continue focusing most of their new IPs on the expanded audience? Can third parties make a profit with an even more HD focused approach?

Look to the future, guys, because the present is pretty much set. Regardless of how stupid you may think it is, complaining about stupidity isn't going to change anything.

I'll take a breather and be back in a couple weeks.

Yeah I agree. It's the same discussion again and again at this point. It'll be a much more interesting discussion come next Nintendo console launch, when everyone has a fresh opportunity to capture market share. At this point things seem set in stone and 3rd parties seem more interested in other things (such as Natal).


...


On the third party front EA must be disappointed that their value priced EA Sports Active upgrade didn't crack the top 20. Wii Fit Plus did great, but EA's hasn't made a ripple it seems. Welp.
 

selig

Banned
DeaconKnowledge said:
Considering this was probably an indirect response to my post, I have pretty much given up on this generation as far as third parties understanding where their missteps have been with the Wii. The reason I even bothered to type up that post to begin with is to illustrate that it was one decision; that "the Wii is a fad" that has manifested itself into the problem we see today. In fact, I'd say it's safe to say that the only large company that DOESN'T consider it a fad is Nintendo, and as such their success is commensurate with their treatment of the console.

Because of this, I have and will contribute 100% of the blame to third parties. It is not Nintendo's responsibility to ensure third parties achieve success on the Wii. Third parties obviously don't want to, and have either given up on the console or resigned to moderate successes here and there. Could Nintendo do more to aid them? Of course, but what's in it for them? Nintendo is monstrously successful whether third parties live or die.

That's why I feel it is important to illustrate that the problem lies with third parties. Wii 2 in HD isn't going to fix things if third party devs continue to think they can shit out games. In my opinion, the answer to all the questions you posed in your post as it relates to them is the same; third parties must take the Wii's successor seriously. Period. If they don't, clearly nothing Nintendo can do will sway them.

As for Nintendo themselves, They are very clearly going to continue to manifest themselves in the way they have been doing. I'm sure this generation has taught them that the core's voice is louder than they anticipated, and they will react as such. However, I very much doubt that it will amount to much more than we've seen with the Wii. After all, Nintendo is only one company.

Good posting.

Can we change the quality of third parties´ Wii-games? No. But we can give a constant reminder of how ridiculous they act. How much money they´re missing out. How ignorant they are.
This whole matter on Wii-third party-games goes beyond just the Wii as a single system. This industry is sick to the core, and Nintendo is almost the only one in the industry that decided to stay "clean" (another example, imo, would be Valve). You actually could write a 20 page or more article on that matter. It´s not only the ignorance against the Wii, it´s console manufacturers that pay outside companies money to make their game exclusive. It´s gaming "journalists" that are awefully biased (I was always one who said gaming journalism needs to be subjective, but at this point these guys have turned into fanboys with popular websites backing them up...). It´s also the whole of "hardcore" gamers like NeoGAF that keep joining the hype-training for every of the usual suspects. And it´s againt developers/publishers that, more than ever before, create games for the money alone. I keep hearing the argument that developers dont want to work on Wii-games because they want to express their artistic needs, which isnt possible on the weak Wii. That´s such bullshit when you look at how non-artistic all the big hyped hd-games are.

The whole industry needs a wake up-call in some form. Money hatting needs to stop, shitty gaming journalism needs to stop, and ridiculous hype, that overshadows every other potential great, but not so known game, needs to stop. I have no idea how that could be changed, though. I foresee three future scenarios: 1.) Another video game crash 2.) Nintendo monopoly or 3.) Nintendo healing the industry by stayting the one healthy constant, that at one point makes all the others realize that they´re doing it wrong.

Other than Nintendo, there´s only three different publishers in this months Top20. That´s just not healthy.
 
selig said:
Other than Nintendo, there´s only three different publishers in this months Top20. That´s just not healthy.

Just because a game is not in the top 20, doesn't make a non-successful product. More FUD and apocalyptic speech.

Looks like I better leave the studio I work in now... heh
 

Tiktaalik

Member
Jokeropia said:
* posts Cumulative Worldwide Figure of Million Sellers on Wii chart*

I know you love that chart and you post it all the time but hasn't its value been a bit debunked by others with NPD access? Didn't Anihawk say several NPDs ago that it wasn't that impressive because the rate of 3rd party million sellers was massively worse than that of the Xbox?

I mean it's a good tool for anyone who generally says that 3rd party games don't sell, but isn't it too limited of a chart to make any sort of point about whether it's a better platform to develop for than any others?
 

Hero

Member
Opiate said:
Very much agreed. I used an analogy some time ago: let's say I'm a professional Football player. As such, it should be absolutely fair to say that I am good at sports. Now, let's say that Football suddenly falls entirely out of fashion, and I'm forced to quit playing sports or play Basketball. Does anyone seriously think I can simply wake up one day and be incredible at Basketball? I'm good at sports, it should be easy! And yet, despite both careers falling under the monicker of "sport," and despite everyone agreeing that I'm very good at sports, I'm not actually suited to compete in Basketball at the highest levels. It requires slightly different physical characteristics (i.e. taller) and a different skill set that I need to cultivate over years of play.

Similarly, it should be fairly apparent by now that the Wii has a slightly different audience.They still fall under the category of "game," but it's different enough that a large company that's supposed to be "good at making games" may not actually be very good in this case, because it requires a different skill set.

Nintendo faithful don't like to hear this, because it sounds like I'm suggesting that the major third parties focus on the PS3/360 -- and I am, that's exactly what I'm suggesting. It's what they're good at, so stick with it. However, HD faithful don't seem to like the suggestion that these companies have failed on the Wii because they aren't skilled enough, because it implies it's a failing of the companies, rather than of the Wii system. And it is a failling of these companies, but it's a totally understandable one. It's like saying, "You are not highly skilled at everything" as a character flaw. Of course companies are going to be stronger at certain skills and weaker at others. Because the "traditional" gamer market has been gradually evolving for 30 years, virtually every major 3rd party in existance built their empires by honing just this set of skills.

Except your analogy is flawed because years ago you were playing basketball just fine. In other words, third parties knew how to make and market great PS2/Xbox/GCN "core" type games but all of a sudden the 360/PS3 made a jump to HD you forgot how to make a great game on a system that has stronger assets than the last gen? It's called bullshit.
 

Onesimos

Member
jvm said:

It would not be surprising that at the end of 2010, that most of the Nintendo-published games will appear again in the Top 20. The fact that two older DS games appeared on the list shows that high-profile Nintendo first-party games continue to sell years after their release.
 

genjiZERO

Member
I'm still amazed at how PS2 sells.

And good god Nintendo... but I really can't tell why 3d parties can't break into this cash cow. It's not like they can't do talented things on things on the system - I just feel like they don't even try. I'd like to see traditional JRPGs pop up on the system. If SE actually put some effort into making a non-gimmick RPG for the system I think they'd sell millions. 3d party Wii, PS2 games on PSN, and high quality PSN/Live games are the three frontiers of the industry that I can't believe no one's figured out yet.
 

Sadist

Member
Opiate said:
Okay, I'm leaving Sales Age for a while, guys. Not because I don't enjoy the discussions, or because there is nothing interesting left to talk about -- but because the threads are effectively inundated with outrage at how the Wii has been treated by third parties.

I'm not saying the Wii has been treated properly by any means: I completely agree that huge opportunities have been missed. But this incessant attempt to show how stupid, stupid, stupid! these third parties are is simply unproductive. Virtually everyone (who is reasonable) seems to agree that huge chances for profits have been missed this generation.

We understand. Third parties messed up, that's clear. But what's also clear is that they're moving on, regardless of how many opportunities they have missed -- or how many opportunities still exist. Regardless of all that, third parties are making it quite clear that it's over.
I see where you are coming from and my advise would be: ignore those type of comments and keep replying to those that interest you. I know it’s frustrating at times, but don’t let that discourage you. There are enough posters who are willing to dig deeper into the discussion.

Personaly, I still don’t understand why third parties were so focussed only on Nintendo’s Wii Sports and Wii Fit for example. It’s quite clear that copying the concept only worked for a handful of titles like Carnival Games, Jillian Micheals Fitness Ultimatum and Gameparty. Those sold because there weren’t as (yet) many of those games on the market and they could cash in on the popularity of the Wii____ titles.

As I experience it, third parties DO care about the Wii. If they didn’t care about the console and it’s market, why would they complain so much?
 

gerg

Member
Hero said:
Except your analogy is flawed because years ago you were playing basketball just fine. In other words, third parties knew how to make and market great PS2/Xbox/GCN "core" type games but all of a sudden the 360/PS3 made a jump to HD you forgot how to make a great game on a system that has stronger assets than the last gen? It's called bullshit.

This argument seems to rely on the premise that the Wii has an audience similar to those who bought the "core" games that developers made on the PS2 and are making now on the PS3 and the 360. That assumption is wrong.

Edit: Nintendo has nine games in the December top 20. Anyone think they can get over 10 next year? :lol
 

ksamedi

Member
DeaconKnowledge said:
Considering this was probably an indirect response to my post, I have pretty much given up on this generation as far as third parties understanding where their missteps have been with the Wii. The reason I even bothered to type up that post to begin with is to illustrate that it was one decision; that "the Wii is a fad" that has manifested itself into the problem we see today. In fact, I'd say it's safe to say that the only large company that DOESN'T consider it a fad is Nintendo, and as such their success is commensurate with their treatment of the console.

Because of this, I have and will contribute 100% of the blame to third parties. It is not Nintendo's responsibility to ensure third parties achieve success on the Wii. Third parties obviously don't want to, and have either given up on the console or resigned to moderate successes here and there. Could Nintendo do more to aid them? Of course, but what's in it for them? Nintendo is monstrously successful whether third parties live or die.

That's why I feel it is important to illustrate that the problem lies with third parties. Wii 2 in HD isn't going to fix things if third party devs continue to think they can shit out games. In my opinion, the answer to all the questions you posed in your post as it relates to them is the same; third parties must take the Wii's successor seriously. Period. If they don't, clearly nothing Nintendo can do will sway them.

As for Nintendo themselves, They are very clearly going to continue to manifest themselves in the way they have been doing. I'm sure this generation has taught them that the core's voice is louder than they anticipated, and they will react as such. However, I very much doubt that it will amount to much more than we've seen with the Wii. After all, Nintendo is only one company.

I think the point he's trying to make is that changing the way big cooperations operate is not an easy task. Consider for example EA, who made countless franchises and annualized them. The developers of EA have thought themselves a certain way of working over the generations because most of the time their annualized franchises made EA a load of profit. All of a sudden, they have to completely change the way they operate because annual games do not sell as good as they used too, especially not on the Wii. They need to create new experiences in genres or create completely new genres. Something they haven't done in years and something the developers are not accustomed too. How is EA going to manage thousands of workers to change the way they make games in such a short time? The answer is they can't. There's a lot at stake by trying to change the way a coorperation operates. It takes an immense effort, budget and time to do such a thing, and the problem is that EA cannot garantee they will make money out of this transition, so its a huge risk as well. The industry has been unknowingly led into a trap. The more flexible companies will get out of this trap but some will certainly fall. Thast ineviteble.
 

farnham

Banned
genjiZERO said:
I'm still amazed at how PS2 sells.

And good god Nintendo... but I really can't tell why 3d parties can't break into this cash cow. It's not like they can't do talented things on things on the system - I just feel like they don't even try. I'd like to see traditional JRPGs pop up on the system. If SE actually put some effort into making a non-gimmick RPG for the system I think they'd sell millions. 3d party Wii, PS2 games on PSN, and high quality PSN/Live games are the three frontiers of the industry that I can't believe no one's figured out yet.
is there any third party effor that is comparable to assassins creed 2, modern warfare 2, batman arkham assylum in terms of dev budget, marketing etc.??
 

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
mclem said:
(Side point: If we assume the DS has a similar audience to the Wii, how come the iterative Layton sequels *haven't* shown such a decline that the EEDAR report was pointing out?)

Concept-based games don't (generally) benefit from content-based sequels. Content-based games do benefit from content-based sequels.

Games that are short, linear, and consumable would be considered content-based. Games that are based on arcade-style replay value, replaying for skill, open-ended goals, etc. would be considered concept-based.

What would Animal Crossing DS 2 add? More hairstyles? More furniture? More room in your town? How does this represent a $30 value over what Animal Crossing DS 1 gives owners? Ditto Mario Kart Wii 2; more tracks? Really? What percentage of owners out there have played so many hours of MKWii that their issue at this point is that there aren't enough tracks or drivers and the same game with new or different content would really help? The people who have bought, played, and eventually stopped playing these games didn't do so because they exhausted the content, they did so because they exhausted the concept.

On the other hand, someone plays through Layton. They get to the end. Not everyone gets to the end, of course, but some do. Those people know the plot twist. They know the answers to the puzzles. What do they do now? Well, Layton 2 might be more of the same, but that's the point, because you've exhausted what you have. Eventually, though, as we see in something like Mega Man on NES, players fail to exhaust the content and further sequels need something newer. I'd also maybe consider Ratchet as emblematic of this.

Some exceptions to this; some content-based games have so much content that they're not well suited for sequels because the vast majority of players don't exhaust the content. This idea was floated many times in terms of justifying the GTA4 DLCs relative lack of popularity--the idea was that the target audience is inherently limited by basically being people who finished GTA4 and wanted more and that's a small audience.

Second, some concept-based games are actually content-exhausted. Wii Fit Plus, EA Sports Active More Workouts, Brain Age 2--these are all predicated on the audience having exhausted the content in the original titles before exhausting the concept.

Rhythm games seem to be a hybrid. They relying on you replaying over and over and over again like a concept game, but the actual songs themselves get exhausted like a content game. Sports games are unusual because they also act as a hybrid; the content is this years team and players (and to a lesser extent the incremental feature set)--which encourages annual sequels--the concept remains mostly the same because I don't think most people could argue that NHL 2k6 and NHL 2k11 are going to be manifestly different games.

Maybe grouping games into groups is a bad idea here--maybe it makes more sense to say that "Games require sequels when their content is exhausted but their concept is not. Games do not require sequels when their concept is exhausted but their content isn't."?

This is one of the reasons why I think many developers, publishers, and platform holders like new platforms. With new platforms, there's a relative reset. Concept based games can get a new installment. Content based games that have puttered out can get new installments.

(all of these terms are terms I just invented, if you feel like other names fit this better feel free to change them in any replies, I'm not wed to anything here)
 

JudgeN

Member
selig said:
Good posting.

Can we change the quality of third parties´ Wii-games? No. But we can give a constant reminder of how ridiculous they act. How much money they´re missing out. How ignorant they are.
This whole matter on Wii-third party-games goes beyond just the Wii as a single system. This industry is sick to the core, and Nintendo is almost the only one in the industry that decided to stay "clean" (another example, imo, would be Valve). You actually could write a 20 page or more article on that matter. It´s not only the ignorance against the Wii, it´s console manufacturers that pay outside companies money to make their game exclusive. It´s gaming "journalists" that are awefully biased (I was always one who said gaming journalism needs to be subjective, but at this point these guys have turned into fanboys with popular websites backing them up...). It´s also the whole of "hardcore" gamers like NeoGAF that keep joining the hype-training for every of the usual suspects. And it´s againt developers/publishers that, more than ever before, create games for the money alone. I keep hearing the argument that developers dont want to work on Wii-games because they want to express their artistic needs, which isnt possible on the weak Wii. That´s such bullshit when you look at how non-artistic all the big hyped hd-games are.

The whole industry needs a wake up-call in some form. Money hatting needs to stop, shitty gaming journalism needs to stop, and ridiculous hype, that overshadows every other potential great, but not so known game, needs to stop. I have no idea how that could be changed, though. I foresee three future scenarios: 1.) Another video game crash 2.) Nintendo monopoly or 3.) Nintendo healing the industry by stayting the one healthy constant, that at one point makes all the others realize that they´re doing it wrong.


Other than Nintendo, there´s only three different publishers in this months Top20. That´s just not healthy.


So what you want is a one console future then? Because as long as there is multiple console makers there will always be exclusives, hype, and gaming journalist to inform us on what everyone is making.


farnham said:
is there any third party effor that is comparable to assassins creed 2, modern warfare 2, batman arkham assylum in terms of dev budget, marketing etc.??


If a game cost $30M to make on the HD twins what would you consider an "Equal" effort as far as budget goes on the Wii? Id imagine RS2 will be one of the first "equal" efforts considering the first game had a 10M budget.
 

poppabk

Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
Tiktaalik said:
Rad sales for Scribblenauts. They gotta be happy about that. I still see the game featured prominently on EB Games shelves.
Its interesting actually - a 3rd party western developer who transitioned from making licensed mobile games to making original content on the DS, with a game which was released in September still showing in the top 20 at christmas - and there next game will be for 360 (XBLA).
 

Jokeropia

Member
Tiktaalik said:
I know you love that chart and you post it all the time but hasn't its value been a bit debunked by others with NPD access? Didn't Anihawk say several NPDs ago that it wasn't that impressive because the rate of 3rd party million sellers was massively worse than that of the Xbox?
That's a worldwide chart so NPD numbers cannot discredit it, but I don't know what post you're thinking of. In terms of US only data, we do know that Wii sold more third party software than any other platform in 2008.
Tiktaalik said:
I mean it's a good tool for anyone who generally says that 3rd party games don't sell, but isn't it too limited of a chart to make any sort of point about whether it's a better platform to develop for than any others?
This is precisely how I use it. It could be a good chart for the second purpose as well, but we don't have equivalent data for the other consoles.
gamergirly said:
It would be nice to get a list of sales figures with Wii 3rd party million seller title/numbers
Yep.
 

Jocchan

Ὁ μεμβερος -ου
Stumpokapow said:
Concept-based games don't (generally) benefit from content-based sequels. Content-based games do benefit from content-based sequels.

Games that are short, linear, and consumable would be considered content-based. Games that are based on arcade-style replay value, replaying for skill, open-ended goals, etc. would be considered concept-based.

What would Animal Crossing DS 2 add? More hairstyles? More furniture? More room in your town? How does this represent a $30 value over what Animal Crossing DS 1 gives owners? Ditto Mario Kart Wii 2; more tracks? Really? What percentage of owners out there have played so many hours of MKWii that their issue at this point is that there aren't enough tracks or drivers and the same game with new or different content would really help? The people who have bought, played, and eventually stopped playing these games didn't do so because they exhausted the content, they did so because they exhausted the concept.

On the other hand, someone plays through Layton. They get to the end. Not everyone gets to the end, of course, but some do. Those people know the plot twist. They know the answers to the puzzles. What do they do now? Well, Layton 2 might be more of the same, but that's the point, because you've exhausted what you have. Eventually, though, as we see in something like Mega Man on NES, players fail to exhaust the content and further sequels need something newer. I'd also maybe consider Ratchet as emblematic of this.

Two exceptions to this; some content-based games have so much content that they're not well suited for sequels because the vast majority of players don't exhaust the content. This idea was floated many times in terms of justifying the GTA4 DLCs relative lack of popularity--the idea was that the target audience is inherently limited by basically being people who finished GTA4 and wanted more and that's a small audience.

Second, some concept-based games are actually content-exhausted. Wii Fit Plus, EA Sports Active More Workouts, Brain Age 2--these are all predicated on the audience having exhausted the content in the original titles before exhausting the concept.

Rhythm games seem to be a hybrid. They relying on you replaying over and over and over again like a concept game, but the actual songs themselves get exhausted like a content game.

This is one of the reasons why I think many developers, publishers, and platform holders like new platforms. With new platforms, there's a relative reset. Concept based games can get a new installment. Content based games that have puttered out can get new installments.

(all of these terms are terms I just invented, if you feel like other names fit this better feel free to change them in any replies, I'm not wed to anything here)
I like these terms, they reflect realistically the situation. If you don't mind, I'd like to borrow them for future discussions about this subject.
 

Road

Member
So, if Microsoft claims US$ 4.8 billion in sales and Sony US$ 5.1 billion, does that mean Nintendo gets the rest, or US$ 9.8 billion?
 

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
Jocchan said:
I like these terms, they reflect realistically the situation.

I made a minor edit that you might want to check out, framing it a little differently

Maybe grouping games into groups is a bad idea here--maybe it makes more sense to say that "Games require sequels when their content is exhausted but their concept is not. Games do not require sequels when their concept is exhausted but their content isn't."?


Either way, my general point remains the same and I think supports EEDAR's hypothesis about unnecessary sequels versus the apparent success lots of IP has with ongoing sequels.
 

ksamedi

Member
Stumpokapow said:
Concept-based games don't (generally) benefit from content-based sequels. Content-based games do benefit from content-based sequels.

Games that are short, linear, and consumable would be considered content-based. Games that are based on arcade-style replay value, replaying for skill, open-ended goals, etc. would be considered concept-based.

What would Animal Crossing DS 2 add? More hairstyles? More furniture? More room in your town? How does this represent a $30 value over what Animal Crossing DS 1 gives owners? Ditto Mario Kart Wii 2; more tracks? Really? What percentage of owners out there have played so many hours of MKWii that their issue at this point is that there aren't enough tracks or drivers and the same game with new or different content would really help? The people who have bought, played, and eventually stopped playing these games didn't do so because they exhausted the content, they did so because they exhausted the concept.

On the other hand, someone plays through Layton. They get to the end. Not everyone gets to the end, of course, but some do. Those people know the plot twist. They know the answers to the puzzles. What do they do now? Well, Layton 2 might be more of the same, but that's the point, because you've exhausted what you have. Eventually, though, as we see in something like Mega Man on NES, players fail to exhaust the content and further sequels need something newer. I'd also maybe consider Ratchet as emblematic of this.

Some exceptions to this; some content-based games have so much content that they're not well suited for sequels because the vast majority of players don't exhaust the content. This idea was floated many times in terms of justifying the GTA4 DLCs relative lack of popularity--the idea was that the target audience is inherently limited by basically being people who finished GTA4 and wanted more and that's a small audience.

Second, some concept-based games are actually content-exhausted. Wii Fit Plus, EA Sports Active More Workouts, Brain Age 2--these are all predicated on the audience having exhausted the content in the original titles before exhausting the concept.

Rhythm games seem to be a hybrid. They relying on you replaying over and over and over again like a concept game, but the actual songs themselves get exhausted like a content game. Sports games are unusual because they also act as a hybrid; the content is this years team and players (and to a lesser extent the incremental feature set)--which encourages annual sequels--the concept remains mostly the same because I don't think most people could argue that NHL 2k6 and NHL 2k11 are going to be manifestly different games.

Maybe grouping games into groups is a bad idea here--maybe it makes more sense to say that "Games require sequels when their content is exhausted but their concept is not. Games do not require sequels when their concept is exhausted but their content isn't."?

This is one of the reasons why I think many developers, publishers, and platform holders like new platforms. With new platforms, there's a relative reset. Concept based games can get a new installment. Content based games that have puttered out can get new installments.

(all of these terms are terms I just invented, if you feel like other names fit this better feel free to change them in any replies, I'm not wed to anything here)

That was quite an insightful post there stump. Thanks for that.
 

Hero

Member
gerg said:
This argument seems to rely on the premise that the Wii has an audience similar to those who bought the "core" games that developers made on the PS2 and are making now on the PS3 and the 360. That assumption is wrong.

If what you're saying is true, then why did Resident Evil 4 sell so well? Why did Umbrella Chronicles sell so well? Why is No More Heroes the first Suda 51 game to have sold well enough to garner a sequel? Why is Monster Hunter 3 in Japan a million seller?

With the user base that the system has, there's MORE core gamers to sell to than during this same exact point in the PS2's life cycle. Stop making up excuses.
 

Busaiku

Member
poppabk said:
Its interesting actually - a 3rd party western developer who transitioned from making licensed mobile games to making original content on the DS, with a game which was released in September still showing in the top 20 at christmas - and there next game will be for 360 (XBLA).
Scribblenauts isn't 5th Cell's first DS hit.
Drawn to Life is what got them on the map, and I imagine Lock's Quest also had a decent showing.

Of course Scribblenauts is bigger, but it's certainly not their first.
 

jay

Member
gerg said:
This argument seems to rely on the premise that the Wii has an audience similar to those who bought the "core" games that developers made on the PS2 and are making now on the PS3 and the 360. That assumption is wrong.

I'd be curious at the figures. I posted an analysts estimate from a few years ago that pegs new gamers who bought a Wii at 10% and no one seems to have anything newer beyond theoretical stuff (if the users were there they'd buy games, etc).
 

gerg

Member
Jocchan said:
I like these terms, they reflect realistically the situation. If you don't mind, I'd like to borrow them for future discussions about this subject.

I mostly agree with the analysis, but the idea of "concept-" and "content-orientated" games seems a bit wishy-washy to me. I think that there's a much more distinct separaration simply between linear and non-linear titles.
 
Any word on Rabbids Go Home sales? Ubisoft said they were picking up, but they could've meant in Europe only. Really curious cause I just picked it up myself. :D
 

Jocchan

Ὁ μεμβερος -ου
Stumpokapow said:
I made a minor edit that you might want to check out, framing it a little differently

Maybe grouping games into groups is a bad idea here--maybe it makes more sense to say that "Games require sequels when their content is exhausted but their concept is not. Games do not require sequels when their concept is exhausted but their content isn't."?
Yeah, some games can be hardly grouped in either category (again, it would be an oversimplification), so comparing which value is exhausted first (content or concept) would make more sense and allow a much broader range of situations.

Stumpokapow said:
Either way, my general point remains the same and I think supports EEDAR's hypothesis about unnecessary sequels versus the apparent success lots of IP has with ongoing sequels.
I agree (actually I pretty much said the same thing in one of my earlier posts, before reading that).

gerg said:
I mostly agree with the analysis, but the idea of "concept-" and "content-orientated" games seems a bit wishy-washy to me. I think that there's a much more distinct separaration simply between linear and non-linear titles.
Don't tell me, I hate dualisms and oversimplifications :D
Differentiating games in terms of what gets exhausted first works much better.
 
In light of the these recent numbers, I think that the GamesIndustry's top 10 selling games for 2010 will be right on the mark. Really solid predictions from them.

Games expected to be the biggest sellers in 2010

* 1. Halo: Reach
* 2. Final Fantasy XIII
* 3. StarCraft II
* 4. Call of Duty 7
* 5. FIFA 11
* 6. BioShock 2
* 7. Mass Effect 2
* 8. God of War III
* 9. Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2
* 10. Gran Turismo 5
 

jvm

Gamasutra.
Souldriver said:
In light of the these recent numbers, I think that the GamesIndustry's top 10 selling games for 2010 will be right on the mark. Really solid predictions from them.
Is that irony?
 

Kenka

Member
amtentori said:
Nintendo's mistake might have been not highlighting quality third party games enough. [...] It would be better for nintendo in the long term if consumers were generally more satisfied with their software purchases.

Boy and his blob, little king story, muramasa, zack and wiki, etc all could have benefitied from a bit more exposure. it also goes for some of the less known first party titles as well. Consumers that pick up excitebots or wario ware smooth moves would be more satisfied than those that picked up nitro bike and game party.

IMO this has been nintendo's biggest mistake this generation. not being very good at aiming its consumers to the quality games, whether first or third party.

Absolutely. In the endless argument war about whose fault the current situation is, this is one of the most satisfying considerations takes yet.

The lack of demos in Wii, for example, has always been perceived by third-parties as the result of faulty design concerning the Wii solution storage. They were convinced that without demos or HDD, the Wii was more or less as good as dead and let it aside when it came to the development of the big guns.

It turned out that what they considered as being an unsustained design did seduce a large majority of the market. Their first effort when they saw what kind of population constitued the Wii consumer panel were kinda successful (wii shovelware) and they did not change the quality of their products with time. Now, this market has tended to be a bit more selective in its choices and many sales taken as granted as the Petz and Babyz series have plundged.

This is the real cause of the recent third-party choices regarding shifting development efforts. They never cared to follow what kind of products were asked by the market and ended up as second choices in people's mind behind Nintendo. Actually, selling shovelware made sense economically but going like this doesn't seem like a wise choice now.

Is it too late to reconsider the way they build and promote Wii games ? I guess not. But they should act carefully if the want to go on taping into the Wii demographics.
 

Massa

Member
Opiate said:

No, that's too facile an analogy. It's not about the technology specs: it's about the philosophies the Wii espouses. One of those philosophies happens to be "Better technology does not make better games." Most major developers today have built their careers in no small part on their ability to produce striking graphics and visuals. A system which suggests that this skill is entirely or mostly useless essentially negates one of their most fundamental skills.

I don't think that explains it. Most of these developers enjoy games on platforms like the DS, iPhone, XBLA, PSN and Wii, so they obviously don't think state of the art graphics and technology is required to make a good game.

I've seen developers quit their jobs at these companies to make iPhone games on their own. You have Sid Meier making a Facebook version of Civ as his next big game. You have David Jaffe quitting Sony to make simpler, normal budget games. There are countless other examples. The reason big budget games are made for PS3/360 is obvious by now, but developers that want a break from that don't necessarily have to go to the Wii.

Making games for people who don't normally play games is a different matter altogether. I'd say the most popular and viable platform for people who want to develop games like that is the PC, by a long shot.
 

Jokeropia

Member
Wii broke the DS' record from 2008 for highest monthly sales ever, but DS broke the Wii's record from 2008 for highest yearly sales ever. :lol

The two biggest phenomenas in the history of the industry, both occurring at the same time.
 

Jocchan

Ὁ μεμβερος -ου
You know what?
The single best piece of advertisement from Nintendo in this whole generation for "core" gamers (so I'm not talking about their lifestyle ads) was the montage of upcoming games they showed during their E3 2006 press conference.
It had everything, a slew of first party and third party games.
Most of them looked interesting, and when put all together they gave the feeling of a really solid lineup.
I'm honestly surprised they didn't make more as TV ads, advertising lots of different titles in ONE advertising slot and giving a solid impression of their software library.
 

farnham

Banned
Souldriver said:
In light of the these recent numbers, I think that the GamesIndustry's top 10 selling games for 2010 will be right on the mark. Really solid predictions from them.
Games expected to be the biggest sellers in 2010

* 1. Halo: Reach
* 2. Final Fantasy XIII
* 3. StarCraft II
* 4. Call of Duty 7
* 5. FIFA 11
* 6. BioShock 2
* 7. Mass Effect 2
* 8. God of War III
* 9. Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2
* 10. Gran Turismo 5
:lol :lol :lol

Jocchan said:
You know what?
The single best piece of advertisement from Nintendo in this whole generation for "core" gamers (so I'm not talking about their lifestyle ads) was the montage of upcoming games they showed during their E3 2006 press conference.
It had everything, a slew of first party and third party games.
Most of them looked interesting, and when put all together they gave the feeling of a really solid lineup.
I'm honestly surprised they didn't make more as TV ads, advertising lots of different titles in ONE advertising slot and giving a solid impression of their software library.


WRONG



Still my most favorite Wii game (or nintendo game for that matter)
 

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
Jocchan said:
You know what?
The single best piece of advertisement from Nintendo in this whole generation for "core" gamers (so I'm not talking about their lifestyle ads) was the montage of upcoming games they showed during their E3 2006 press conference.
It had everything, a slew of first party and third party games.
Most of them looked interesting, and when put all together they gave the feeling of a really solid lineup.
I'm honestly surprised they didn't make more as TV ads, advertising lots of different titles in ONE advertising slot and giving a solid impression of their software library.

oddly enough the only company who has done this at any point was sony in 06-07 where a lot of their ads, retail and television, were montages and people hated them. :p
 

Jocchan

Ὁ μεμβερος -ου
farnham said:
WRONG

Still my most favorite Wii game (or nintendo game for that matter)
I was talking about this generation :p

EDIT:
Stumpokapow said:
oddly enough the only company who has done this at any point was sony in 06-07 where a lot of their ads, retail and television, were montages and people hated them. :p
Yeah, but I believe they would pretty effective if they somehow added some context or merged them with their lifestyle ads.
Now that I think about it, they sort of did it with their "wii would like to play" campaign.
 
Jokeropia said:
Again, the average Wii owner buys games at the exact same rate as the average 360 and PS3 owner. I know you really don't want to believe this, but tough luck.
Two in a row! :lol

For fucks sake stop with this idiotic "statistic". I love how we are now at "exact same" instead of "well, the results of this maths I did on some fuzzy data have an integer in common, they must be about the same".
 

poppabk

Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
Busaiku said:
Scribblenauts isn't 5th Cell's first DS hit.
Drawn to Life is what got them on the map, and I imagine Lock's Quest also had a decent showing.

Of course Scribblenauts is bigger, but it's certainly not their first.
I know, I was pointing out that they are a western 3rd party dev that has had a lot of success on a Nintendo system - and they are still looking to transition to the 360. Which is possibly evidence that western devs really do want to be working on the best hardware, and will risk sales to do so.
 

unomas

Banned
Realized what kind of weird gaming world I'm in when my girlfriend is bringing her Wii over so we can play Dancing with the Stars.....fuck my new gaming life.
 

phisheep

NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
gerg said:
This argument seems to rely on the premise that the Wii has an audience similar to those who bought the "core" games that developers made on the PS2 and are making now on the PS3 and the 360. That assumption is wrong.

Jay said:
I'd be curious at the figures. I posted an analysts estimate from a few years ago that pegs new gamers who bought a Wii at 10% and no one seems to have anything newer beyond theoretical stuff (if the users were there they'd buy games, etc).

I think these are two different things. IIRC the analysts definition of 'new gamers' was those who had never owned a console before. The other 90% will be made up partly of PS2 gamers of course, but also of those who fell by the wayside after the N64, or the SNES or the NES - by no means all of them will be ex-core PS2 people.
 

gerg

Member
Jocchan said:
You know what?
The single best piece of advertisement from Nintendo in this whole generation for "core" gamers (so I'm not talking about their lifestyle ads) was the montage of upcoming games they showed during their E3 2006 press conference.
It had everything, a slew of first party and third party games.
Most of them looked interesting, and when put all together they gave the feeling of a really solid lineup.
I'm honestly surprised they didn't make more as TV ads, advertising lots of different titles in ONE advertising slot and giving a solid impression of their software library.

I'm not sure an advertisement which was only a montage of game footage would be very successful with the Wii's audience. Nintendo's adverts successfully highlight the communal or social experience of playing a game, rather than just what actually happens in the games themselves.

Jocchan said:
Don't tell me, I hate dualisms and oversimplifications :D
Differentiating games in terms of what gets exhausted first works much better.

But how do you tell what gets exhausted first? Furthermore, how do you distinguish content from concept? For example, we might say that the concept of "Mario Kart" is a racing game using the Mario IP, but I could just as easily argue that that's the content of the game. The problem is that "what you do" may only be "how you do it" but phrased differently.
 

Jocchan

Ὁ μεμβερος -ου
farnham said:
eh zelda TP was a wii launch title
Should we really start an argument about Zelda TP being a Gamecube or a Wii game? :D
It wouldn't matter anyway, because the 2004 conference was about TP for the Gamecube and a Wii version of the game probably wasn't envisioned yet :p
 
Games expected to be the biggest sellers in 2010

* 1. Halo: Reach
* 2. Final Fantasy XIII
* 3. StarCraft II
* 4. Call of Duty 7
* 5. FIFA 11
* 6. BioShock 2
* 7. Mass Effect 2
* 8. God of War III
* 9. Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2
* 10. Gran Turismo 5

Nope it will be

* 1. Halo Reach
* 2. Wii Fit Plus
* 3. Wii Sports Resort
* 4. Call of Duty 7
* 5. New Super Mario Bros. Wii
* 6. Wii Play
* 7. Super Mario Galaxy 2
* 8. Mario Kart Wii
* 9. Final Fantasy XIII
* 10. Wii something that hasn't come out yet
 

farnham

Banned
MiamiWesker said:
Nope it will be

* 1. Halo Reach
* 2. Wii Fit Plus
* 3. Wii Sports Resort
* 4. Call of Duty 7
* 5. New Super Mario Bros. Wii
* 6. Wii Play
* 7. Super Mario Galaxy 2
* 8. Mario Kart Wii
* 9. Final Fantasy XIII
* 10. Wii something that hasn't come out yet
really..? look at the ODST sales and Hao Wars sales.. Halo isnt that big anymore...
Jocchan said:
Should we really start an argument about Zelda TP being a Gamecube or a Wii game? :D
It wouldn't matter anyway, because the 2004 conference was about TP for the Gamecube and a Wii version of the game probably wasn't envisioned yet :p

no because obviously it is a Wii and GC game.. its just that the wii game came out on wii launch and about two weeks later on the GC.. so its a current gen game.. (like RE4 Wii edition which is a current gen game as well unlike RE4 GC or RE4 PS2..)

anyway.. i guess your right.. the 2004 E3 conference wasnt about the wii..
 

boiled goose

good with gravy
Kenka said:
Absolutely. In the endless argument war about whose fault the current situation is, this is one of the most satisfying considerations takes yet.

The lack of demos in Wii, for example, has always been perceived by third-parties as the result of faulty design concerning the Wii solution storage. They were convinced that without demos or HDD, the Wii was more or less as good as dead and let it aside when it came to the development of the big guns.

It turned out that what they considered as being an unsustained design did seduce a large majority of the market. Their first effort when they saw what kind of population constitued the Wii consumer panel were kinda successful (wii shovelware) and they did not change the quality of their products with time. Now, this market has tended to be a bit more selective in its choices and many sales taken as granted as the Petz and Babyz series have plundged.

This is the real cause of the recent third-party choices regarding shifting development efforts. They never cared to follow what kind of products were asked by the market and ended up as second choices in people's mind behind Nintendo. Actually, selling shovelware made sense economically but going like this doesn't seem like a wise choice now.

Is it too late to reconsider the way they build and promote Wii games ? I guess not. But they should act carefully if the want to go on taping into the Wii demographics.

The problem also extends to Wiiware. Swords and soldiers is a gem, but people are simply not aware of its existence or what the heck it is about. The wii shop channel doesnt even feature a good way to look at a full list games. To find that game, you have to go through a ton of screens and even then you dont have access to a demo.

Live is one area where nintendo should really attempt to copy (and improve upon) the competition. demos, videos, what games your friends are playing, etc all lead to a more informed consumer, which is always a good thing...
 

phisheep

NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
Son of Godzilla said:
For fucks sake stop with this idiotic "statistic". I love how we are now at "exact same" instead of "well, the results of this maths I did on some fuzzy data have an integer in common, they must be about the same".

It is much closer than an integer in common. The variation between that rate of game purchases for each console comes out (or did last time I worked it out) at less than one game in three years - it is a tiny difference and well within the range of error in the sales figures.

So "exact same" is about the best way of putting it.
 
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