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[Chobel]

It's everything to the BUSINESS not the development team, they're two different entities. Anyone who works in software development will tell you the same thing.

If as a business, you disband or let go of a team who've created an amazing product which was marketed poorly with a poor release date, you shouldn't be in your current role. Unless obviously, you go bust, but then that's your own fault, and then the dev team should be pissed.

LOL, you're kidding yourself if you think sales don't matter for dev teams.

http://www.polygon.com/2013/4/2/4176322/square-enix-la-hit-with-more-layoffs-as-company-restructures
http://www.mcvuk.com/news/read/jobs...n-as-staff-are-placed-on-consultation/0148180

And even if the team doesn't get hit by layoffs, they will be restricted on what they do in their next project, which the next worse thing for devs, losing the freedom to create what they want.

 

[Raylan]

The PS4 sold 708k more than last year. That's an incredibly Ridiculous increase.

The Power of this guy:

 

[AnthonypUK]

Expecting to lose some sales is something, expecting it to bomb on XBO is something else.

At very least SE should have expected XBO to gain some sales from PC/PS4. However in this case they lost sales from all the platforms.

From what i heard they didn't expect to lose sales

I heard they made the deal when the $399 kinect-less sku was just about to hit the market. MS was going into the holidays planning on dropping the price an additional $50, and had marketing deals with big games like COD and AC as well as MCC, FH2, Sunset overdrive dropping. They were absolutely expecting,and MS sold them that they would gain a ton of ground, with all the above and the Teir 2 launch happening that fall.

When all that happened and Sony continued to increase their market share, then the deal started to look bad.

 

[leeh]

Humm. You work on a game for +2 years, you want a maximum of people to actually play it. Talking from experience.

Also, bonuses, they're a thing.

Of course, but a lot of people still are, just way not as many as it should be.

Can't really say anything about bonuses, because we don't know how they work. I'd doubt dev's will be effected that much, more so, the higher ups in SE. If they get them at all..

 

[Night Angel]

Of course, but a lot of people still are, just way not as many as it should be.

Can't really say anything about bonuses, because we don't know how they work. I'd doubt dev's will be effected that much, more so, the higher ups in SE.

Dude, layoffs happen all the time in this industry, especially to underperforming games. This world where developers only care about critical reception does not exist.

How about this, instead of constantly insisting that your assertions are correct and ignoring evidence posted by others that contradict that view, why not provide evidence of your own that sales metrics don't matter to devs? Preferably not straight from the PR teams' mouths.

And bonuses generally rely on previously stated metrics, things like review scores, sales, and the like. Not sure why a metacritic bonus goes without saying but a sales bonus is crazy talk.

 

[kinoki]

From what i heard they didn't expect to lose sales

I heard they made the deal when the $399 kinect-less sku was just about to hit the market. MS was going into the holidays planning on dropping the price an additional $50, and had marketing deals with big games like COD and AC as well as MCC, FH2, Sunset overdrive dropping. They were absolutely expecting,and MS sold them that they would gain a ton of ground, with all the above and the Teir 2 launch happening that fall.

When all that happened and Sony continued to increase their market share, then the deal started to look bad.

Betting on the wrong horse often has consequences. I doubt we'll see anymore third party exclusivity deals. It just doesn't make sense. I bet everyone at SE who had a hand in making it happen wish they hadn't.

Of course, but a lot of people still are, just way not as many as it should be.

Can't really say anything about bonuses, because we don't know how they work. I'd doubt dev's will be effected that much, more so, the higher ups in SE. If they get them at all..

It'll affect than. Count on it. No bonuses for the devteam. Lowered budget for the third game (if there will even be one). Layoffs. Tattered reputation for the brand. Bad publicity. There's just so many things that impact the developers with this deal. There is nothing good to this situation. As a Tomb Raider-fan myself I fear for the brand. It has a lot of good games but also a lot of missteps that have hurt it tremendously in the past and just when the series was showing so much promise.

 

[Nightengale]

From what i heard they didn't expect to lose sales

This is more believable to me than SE expecting to lose sales.

 

[Chobel]

From what i heard they didn't expect to lose sales

I heard they made the deal when the $399 kinect-less sku was just about to hit the market. MS was going into the holidays planning on dropping the price an additional $50, and had marketing deals with big games like COD and AC as well as MCC, FH2, Sunset overdrive dropping. They were absolutely expecting,and MS sold them that they would gain a ton of ground, with all the above and the Teir 2 launch happening that fall.

When all that happened and Sony continued to increase their market share, then the deal started to look bad.

SE actually bought that? LOL!

 

[leeh]

LOL, you're kidding yourself if you think sales don't matter for dev teams.

http://www.polygon.com/2013/4/2/4176322/square-enix-la-hit-with-more-layoffs-as-company-restructures
http://www.mcvuk.com/news/read/jobs...n-as-staff-are-placed-on-consultation/0148180

And even if the team doesn't get hit by layoffs, they will be restricted on what they do in their next project, which the next worse thing for devs, losing the freedom to create what they want.

We're talking about personal disappointment within the developer team. I'd read my post again, if the sales of RoTR directly led to lay offs, then yeah, be pissed off. I highly doubt that since the PC & PS4 release coming up. It'll shift copies. Since its critically positive, the team would most like be shifted around then sacked, any under-performers should get layed of in that sense. I have plenty of examples where we've had dev's in which work at 30% of the capacity of other developers, we've let them go, same with contractors.

Restricted in what way? The only 'restriction' is the time they'd be able to spend on a project.

I've also seen a CD dev posting on /r/xboxone on a RoTR thread stating he was chuffed with the response the game has.

 

[Matt]

We're talking about personal disappointment within the developer team. I'd read my post again, if the sales of RoTR directly led to lay offs, then yeah, be pissed off. I highly doubt that since the PC & PS4 release coming up. It'll shift copies. Since its critically positive, the team would most like be shifted around then sacked, any under-performers should get layed of in that sense. I have plenty of examples where we've had dev's in which work at 30% of the capacity of other developers, we've let them go, same with contractors.

Restricted in what way? The only 'restriction' is the time they'd be able to spend on a project.

I've also seen a CD dev posting on /r/xboxone on a RoTR thread stating he was chuffed with the response the game has.

This is a very rose-colored view of game development. I wish things were like this.

 

[Sadist]

Nothing on 3DS sales?

 

[allan-bh]

Expecting to lose some sales is something, expecting it to bomb on XBO is something else.

At very least SE should have expected XBO to gain some sales from PC/PS4. However in this case they lost sales from all the platforms.

I don't think is bomb at the level people are saying here. Tomb Raider in PS3 opened with ~295k, so 200k isn't atrocious.

 

[DieH@rd]

Still completely broken I think. There is no way for the PS4 NDC bundle to be so low for the month. I really suggest skipping Amazon for the monthly december, it's broken since the beginning.

I absolutely believe that BF bundle is ahead of UC bundle in December. UC was the only $299 bundle in Nov, while BF only now got the same deal. That, plus hype for the movie has pushed this bundle to the top.

 

[leeh]

This is a very rose-colored view of game development. I wish things were like this.

How's it differed for you? I'm not pulling things out of my arse here. I'm intrigued, because that's how it is for me personally.

 

[Chobel]

I don't think is bomb at the level people are saying here. Tomb Raider in PS3 opened with ~295k, so 200k isn't atrocious.

Please allan!

How's it differed for you? I'm not pulling things out of my arse here. I'm intrigued, because that's how it is for me personally.

Do you work in game development?

EDIT: Thx mods, clicking "Edit" is tricky now :/

 

[Nightengale]

SE actually bought that? LOL!

I don't pretend to know how many layers of convincing needs to be made for deals like this, but from my limited corporate experience, all you really need to do is sell the coolaid to one person who's high-level enough to convince his other colleagues/boss that it's a good deal.

 

[slavesnyder]

How's it differed for you? I'm not pulling things out of my arse here. I'm intrigued, because that's how it is for me personally.

You are working on games that are good but don't sell?
How's your studio surviving?

I don't pretend to know how many layers of convincing needs to be made for deals like this, but from my limited corporate experience, all you really need to do is sell the coolaid to one person who's high-level enough to convince his other colleagues/boss that it's a good deal.

jep. It's a trick that might only work once at one company and leave a wasteland, but if you are willing to merry-go-round...

 

[foxbeldin]

Please allan!

Your tag is amazing

edit : really, i can't stop making it expand.

 

[AnthonypUK]

I don't pretend to know how many layers of convincing needs to be made for deals like this, but from my limited corporate experience, all you really need to do is sell the coolaid to one person who's high-level enough to convince his other colleagues/boss that it's a good deal.

And when you have Microsoft, and the developer you own selling to you..you end up with a deal like this.

 

[allan-bh]

Please allan!

Why? I'm not even remotely saying that sales are good in some level, but isn't terrible either.

Probably the biggest problem for Tomb Raider is sales in Europe, not these 200k in NPD.

 

[DieH@rd]

You meant this window?

Spoiler

Love you, Lara. See you in PS4

Sssssnap.

 

[Game Guru]

You know if RotTR sold less than 200K and even the TR reboot didn't do so hot, maybe Tomb Raider should return to the Puzzle Platformer roots but with a massively reduced budget. It's obvious that people just aren't buying here to justify a AAA budget. And besides...

1. Activision Blizzard (Yearly Call of Duty)
2. Bethesda
3. Electronic Arts
4. Electronic Arts (Yearly Madden)
5. Take-Two (Yearly NBA 2K)
6. Electronic Arts (Yearly FIFA)
7. Electronic Arts
8. Microsoft
9. Ubisoft (Yearly Assassin's Creed)
10. Ubisoft (Yearly Just Dance)

Over half of the big AAA Winter Season titles are yearly franchises from Activision, EA, Take-Two, and Ubisoft. Those companies are just on a whole other level compared to any other in console gaming.

 

[RexNovis]

We're talking about personal disappointment within the developer team. I'd read my post again, if the sales of RoTR directly led to lay offs, then yeah, be pissed off. I highly doubt that since the PC & PS4 release coming up. It'll shift copies. Since its critically positive, the team would most like be shifted around then sacked, any under-performers should get layed of in that sense. I have plenty of examples where we've had dev's in which work at 30% of the capacity of other developers, we've let them go, same with contractors.

Restricted in what way? The only 'restriction' is the time they'd be able to spend on a project.

Leech STOP. You literally have no idea what you're talking about. AGAIN. Even if you did what does this argument have do with anything? The only possible reason to make up this asinine ideal world where developers simultaneously only care about critical reception and somehow also have people on the team who don't care about anything at all is to make you feel better about the way this situation played out. We are not your support group. Besides, you straight up contradict yourself

Please, go on. All a dev team has to do is create an amazing product, they did that and they should/will feel proud. They'll be dissapointed it hasn't sold well, of course, but then again, that's not their problem. Like I've stated.

Of course. Although, they won't be disappointed, more so peeved at certain peoples decisions, if they're that way inclined. Of course SE will be dissapointed with sales.

And

Please, go on. All a dev team has to do is create an amazing product, they did that and they should/will feel proud .

You guys also forget that not everyone on a team actually cares, they'll go to work, pick up tasks what they need to do that day, then go home. They'll be happy with the end product, and that's them happy. As long as they still have their job, which they will do, then smiles all round.

Seriously dude you can't even make up your own damn mind about what you want to argue. Just quit. You are making no sense whatsoever.

 

[kinoki]

How's it differed for you? I'm not pulling things out of my arse here. I'm intrigued, because that's how it is for me personally.

The profits from the product has to cover the cost and an additional (let's say) 15% to make it worth the time for investors. Do you think anyone made a profit from Tomb Raider? And before you start talking about the deal with MS and how that made the money back for SE consider that that deal isn't on the table next time. Also, the game didn't earn that money as it came from other sources. It's deep into the red.

When investors look at the possibility of a third game it would have to support itself and when they look at the expected returns they'll likely factor in all the negativity this game has received. As it stands Tomb Raider was a waste of money for everyone involved. It hurt the brand. The developers aren't immune to consequences.

 

[Chobel]

Why? I'm not even remotely saying that sales are good in some level, but isn't terrible either.

Probably the biggest problem for Tomb Raider is sales in Europe, not these 200k in NPD.

200K is terrible no matter how you look at it, especially for a big franshise like Tomb Raider, that's less than lowest selling SKU for TR 2013 (ignoring PC of course), 33% less.

You seriously thought SE expected this? Not pulling any sales from other platforms (the real reason you do exclusives in the first place)? Not even matching the sales of one Xbox SKU?

Unless MS agreed to pay the loses (which I doubt it), then there's no way SE are happy about the outcome.

 

[leeh]

Do you work in game development?

Not game development, but I'm a lead developer of a team. I can't really say much about where I work/what I do.

EDIT: I'm seeing a lot of green, I'm sorry that I tried suggesting that maybe the developers are happy that they developed an amazing game and shouldn't be disappointed with sales because it wasn't their fault. This place sometimes...

 

[Percy]

Getting caught up on the TR damage control in this thread has made for a very entertaining morning.

I don't think is bomb at the level people are saying here. Tomb Raider in PS3 opened with ~295k, so 200k isn't atrocious.

It really really is.

 

[Occam]

@Chobel
What exactly did you bet?

 

[RexNovis]

You are working on games that are good but don't sell?
How's your studio surviving?

His salary is 900% digital. Obviously.

 

[Nightengale]

200K is terrible no matter how you look at it, especially for a big franshise like Tomb Raider, that's less than lowest selling SKU for TR 2013 (ignoring PC of course), 33% less.

The fact that ROTR may actually have sold less than 500k worldwide is a fucking insane notion.

I expect it to have shipped at least one million, but it's a stock that won't be cleared for long, long time.

 

[leeh]

The profits from the product has to cover the cost and an additional (let's say) 15% to make it worth the time for investors. Do you think anyone made a profit from Tomb Raider? And before you start talking about the deal with MS and how that made the money back for SE consider that that deal isn't on the table next time. Also, the game didn't earn that money as it came from other sources. It's deep into the red.

When investors look at the possibility of a third game it would have to support itself and when they look at the expected returns they'll likely factor in all the negativity this game has received. As it stands Tomb Raider was a waste of money for everyone involved. It hurt the brand. The developers aren't immune to consequences.

So the dev's didn't get paid until it sold? They've got their salaries, they're bonuses could be effected. It's not really an issue for them. To SE yeah, but not the developer.

 

[foxbeldin]

@Chobel
What exactly did you bet?

I think it was something like ps4 or xb1 under 1.23m.

 

[slavesnyder]

Not game development, but I'm a lead developer of a team. I can't really say much about where I work/what I do.

That's obvious, you don't have to.
I hope this great support/tolerance from the financial side will last at your workplace, because it's exceptional.

 

[slavesnyder]

His salary is 900% digital. Obviously.

Bitcoins?
Steam Keys?

 

[leeh]

Leech STOP. You literally have no idea what you're talking about. AGAIN. Even if you did what does this argument have do with anything? The only possible reason to make up this asinine ideal world where developers simultaneously only care about critical reception and somehow also have people on the team who don't care about anything at all. You straight up contradict yourself





And




Seriously dude you can't even make up your own damn mind about what you want to argue. Just quit. You are making no sense whatsoever.

I'm not arguing, I'm just stating that devs won't be dissapointed it won't of done well because they made an amazing game! Are they not allowed to be happy ffs?

 

[allan-bh]

200K is terrible no matter how you look at it, especially for a big franshise like Tomb Raider, that's less than lowest selling SKU for TR 2013 (ignoring PC of course), 33% less.

Yes, so of course isn't good, I just don't think is a massive bomb as some people are saying here. PS3 was more favourable for Tomb Raider than Xbox One and a dead 360 are now.

Looking ate Xbox One situation in Europe, probably the WW scenario is much worse for the sales than in NPD.

 

[Rhazer Fusion]

What a boring top ten

Like always.

Also, I am not even remotely surprised Tomb Raider didn't enter the top 10. No marketing that I am aware of, not particularly appealing to most XBox gamers and releasing it against a plethora of AAA, hyped titles was suicide.

 

[thebloo]

I don't think is bomb at the level people are saying here. Tomb Raider in PS3 opened with ~295k, so 200k isn't atrocious.

But it opened in March.

 

[RexNovis]

I'm not arguing, I'm just stating that devs won't be dissapointed it won't of done well because they made an amazing game! Are they not allowed to be happy ffs?

That's not all you said. But dropping that for a moment this isn't about if they are allowed to be happy this about you thinking we live in happy happy joy joy land and everyone else telling you we live in the real world.

 

[Psycho_Mantis]

You meant this window?

Spoiler

Love you, Lara. See you in PS4

dead

Just note that my previous post was comparing the families exclusively (Xbox and PS were 3rd year, Nintendo was 4th), not everything in one timeline.

This is every home console from the 6th gen up ranked by their 3rd November.

1. Wii - 2,040,000
2. PS4 - 1,539,000
3. Xbox One - 1,296,000
4. PS2 - 1,284,000
5. Xbox 360 - 770,000
6. Gamecube - 754,000
7. Xbox - 490,000
8. PS3 - 378,000
9. Wii U - 240,000

Consoles are dead.

Updating Ryng-Tolu's post from the prediction thread

Top November NPD's

1) 2,040,000 (WII; 2008)
2) 1,700,000 (DS; 2009)
3) 1,700,000 (360; 2011)
4) 1,570,000 (DS; 2008)
5) 1,540,000 (DS; 2007)
6) 1,539,000 (PS4; 2015)
7) 1,500,000 (DS; 2010)
8) 1,370,000 (360; 2010)
9) 1,323,000 (GBA; 2003)
10) 1,318,000 (PS2; 2002)
11) 1,296,000 (XB1; 21015)
12) 1,283,000 (GBA; 2002)
13) 1,270,000 (WII; 2010)
14) 1,260,000 (WII; 2009)
15) 1,260,000 (360; 2012)
16) 1,230,000 ( XB1; 2014)

PS4 numbers are crazy. Is there a possibility PS4 to overcome Wii's record?

 

[The Last One]

Has the PS4 crossed the 10M Mark in the USA?

 

[leeh]

That's not all you said. But dropping that for a moment this isn't about if they are allowed to be happy this about you thinking we live in happy happy joy joy land and everyone else telling you we live in the real world.

I also live in the real world, and it's not as doom as gloom as all you people think.

 

[foxbeldin]

What was the split ratio between 360 and one for TR in UK in it's first week? And can we expect something equivalent for the NPD month?

 

[Chobel]

Not game development, but I'm a lead developer of a team. I can't really say much about where I work/what I do.

Well, Matt works in game development.

EDIT: I'm seeing a lot of green, I'm sorry that I tried suggesting that maybe the developers are happy that they developed an amazing game and shouldn't be disappointed with sales because it wasn't their fault. This place sometimes...

Here's the thing, how do you separate disappointed sales from the feeling of "Maybe we didn't do good enough"?

And if rumors are true, CD are the ones who pitched the idea to SE, and facilitated this exclusivity deal with MS.

 

[Occam]

I think it was something like ps4 or xb1 under 1.23m.

Yes, correct. I found it. Given the new tag I assumed he wagered more; it's a simple avatar bet, only for 2 weeks.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=188340584&postcount=1798

 

[stryke]

What was the split ratio between 360 and one for TR in UK in it's first week? And can we expect something equivalent for the NPD month?

360 was 15%
Cosmic didn't want to tell us because it's unbelievable.

 

[kinoki]

So the dev's didn't get paid until it sold? They've got their salaries, they're bonuses could be effected. It's not really an issue for them. To SE yeah, but not the developer.

You really have a hard time with this. Yes, the developers got paid. How many developers do you think they will continue to pay if this is the only profit they can make? Reality is cruel and hopefully, sweet child, you're spared from the worst sides of it before you're really ready. I fear for your health if something like reality came barging in on you.

 

[RexNovis]

I also live in the real world, and it's not as doom as gloom as all you people think.

You do not work or live in the world of game development. Your extrapolations from personal experience mean fuck all to a different industry.

You really have a hard time with this. Yes, the developers got paid. How many developers do you think they will continue to pay if this is the only profit they can make? Reality is cruel and hopefully, sweet child, you're spared from the worst sides of it before you're really ready. I fear for your health if something like reality came barging in on you.

You'd think this shit would be obvious...

 

[foxbeldin]

Yes, correct. I found it. Given the new tag I assumed he wagered more; it's a simple avatar bet, only for 2 weeks.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=188340584&postcount=1798

And now with consequences : http://i.imgur.com/QFc38nr.png

 

[watdaeff4]

Looking ate Xbox One situation in Europe, probably the WW scenario is much worse for the sales than in NPD.

Understatement