I still need to comprehend why NPD hides gaming industry numbers so much, while other industries aren't so secretive. I don't know, I see this as a sign of "immaturity" of the whole industry, and I feel sorry to say that. This also helps VGsomethingsomethingz (you know what I'm talking about) to be even considered as "remotely reliable" by people who don't follow gaming news that much and that would just like to know how things are going. We've had recent articles from non-gaming outlets that used false VG...Z numbers, it keeps happening. IMHO; this damages NPD's image too: how can an entity being considered important and relevant about something from non-subscribers if it doesn't even share the necessary informations about what's going on in the tracked industry? Why is there such a need for secretiveness? I'm not even saying that they should tell us everything, just...the minimal requirements would be good already: hardware sales, top 10 sales, maybe individual, but even combined SKUs. This is the minimum, and yet we're completely oblivious about the minimum.
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NPD Sales Results for October 2014 [Up3: All of Nintendo's 3DS million sellers]
- Thread starter Nirolak
- Start date
They're their clients. Why would you piss your clients? Fact is video game compagnies want to have total control over the communication of their results. That's as simple as that.
I thought that's what he meant by video game companies, sans retailers. See below
CadetMahoney
Member
I'd rather she take a break for now, this stuff was clearly really getting to her on a personal level. That is never good.
Because they're just 3 clients, and they wouldn't give up all the data NPD offers even if they were pissed they were going against their wishes.
harrisk954
Member
How much does it cost to get the numbers? Does anyone know the actual dollar amount?
Depends on the wording of the contract. Just because you pay for something doesn't mean you can't have your rights revoked.
I've stepped into the minefield, time to tread carefully. I'm going to say this as respectfully as possible.
It's true that the majority of the blame belongs to a minority of posters on GAF for not recognizing the legal issues that could result from investigation by NPD, but when I look at how everything played out, I feel like Aqua could have done a better job handling the situation. Aside from Cream, Aqua has complete control of NPD's report and how it was distributed. If she needed to change how information was leaked in order to avoid being on the end of any consequence, why not just do it? She's doing this with no compensation whatsoever, so there shouldn't have to be any justification given to anyone that disagrees with the changes. It's nice, but not mandatory. I know there must be a lot of stress on Aqua IRL, but going on a tirade because a few posters disagreed with her wasn't necessary and only makes us look worse in the long run.
Again, this is just my personal opinion. If you think I'm wrong, feel free to disagree.
Why don't we put money all together to get the results ?
lightning2k3
Member
So Evil WIthin sold ~385k total and was 3rd on the chart? Wow destiny really fell hard. They dropped a minimum of like 85%.
According to previous posters allegedly thousands of dollars. So the avg Joe is not buying the results on a monthly basis.
Probably right but who knows how many PS4 bundles they sold which aren't counted in the NPD tally.
I voluntarily said "video game compagnies" to include everyone. That's not just about Nintendo, Sony and Microsoft. NPD numbers concerns a lot more of people.
Sho_Nuff82
Member
Mutually beneficial arrangement. NPD probably didn't see any harm in just a top 10 and hardware being released to the public (because real long term analysis is only possible with a lengthier list, platform breakdowns, and LTDs). Still, the more the information is desired, the more valuable it becomes.
Hardware and software manufacturers get to "massage" the public message and their stockholders by citing healthy shipped numbers, even though this isn't used as a metric in nearly any other technology or entertainment field (cell phones, movies, CDs, books, etc). We've actually gotten to the point where we're more likely to get reliable sell-through numbers from Nintendo and indie developers than any of the big 3rd party publishers, Sony, or MS.
Sony and MS could release their hardware numbers every month if they wanted to. The fact that they don't speaks volumes. As has been mentioned before, the PS4 is a runaway success, and Sony still doesn't share numbers, because they don't want to create the precedent of doing so for any of their hardware. Obfuscation means not having to answer awkward questions.
It's in the thousands, and I don't think NPD group would sell it to a place that would make all of the numbers public. Which, let's face it, gaf would expect after paying for it. They would crack down and then cut off. Then gaf would want their money back and things get messy.
lightning2k3
Member
Yep. If i recall correctly sony was the first to stop sharing NPD numbers when PS3 wasn't doing so hot. Now that the shoe is on the other foot they dont want to set a bad precedent in case they lose a month or people ask about the vita.
Yep, I asked Aqua the same question, and it's very expensive. Evilore as owner of this forum could certainly afford it, but he'd be under the same legal obligation not to disclose the numbers, so it wouldn't benefit anyone else.
slavesnyder
Member
when you are under stress and taking risks just for doing something good, without even the smallest compensation (except a little internet fame), ungratefulness can drive you mad.
Iirc, it was sony responsible for the first number crackdown and removal years ago.
There was an agreement between Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo and the NPD the hardware numbers could be released for a certain amount of years. I think it was 5. When it came to renewal, one hardware maker refused to lengthen the agreement. It was without a doubt Sony.
They allowed them to do so in the first place.
Well Driveclub is broken so it's no surprise people aren't buying it. And that's a good thing.
I was looking through the archives a few days ago and saw this post http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=47780252&postcount=3725
It's also implying they have already shipped 10 mill, while they will be shortly reaching that goal, and most probably that shortly is the Soony equivalent.
Petrae
Member
NPD elected to share hardware data on its own, then likely realized that it could get more money from subscriptions by not doing so. NPD has nothing to gain by sharing any specific data with non-subscribers.
These reports are big business, and subscribers pay a lot of money for them.
The numbers really aren't vital knowledge for consumers or even for gaming press. Retailers use them to forecast trends for purchasing purposes. Investors use them to determine the health of the company(ies) they're sinking money into. Consumers, by and large, use the data for nonsense purposes, i.e. "My console is outselling yours. Suck it!" Gaming press folks often don't understand what the numbers mean and fail to analyze them properly when sharing the data.
Perhaps it can be argued that consumers would use the data for research purposes, such as determining if buying a certain console makes sense given sales trends and how much predictable success it may have. And then there are the Armchair Analysts (you know who you are) who genuinely like to break down the numbers and try their hands at forecasting or making predictions based on data. These exceptions really aren't the rule, though.
Not getting any more monthly data would be unfortunate, but ultimately wouldn't have significantly adverse effects. There are still quarterly financial reports, which often give us insight and enough information to make decent extrapolations or to draw decent conclusions.
Dirtyshubb
Member
They dont need to do anything, they take the risk and post the numbers to help Gaf out, not because they have to.
As much as im sure they are worried about the risk, its the terrible attitude and expectant behaviour of some posters here that caused the great risk by being unwilling to follow some simple rules to help keep them low key.
Sho_Nuff82
Member
Rereading last month's thread Goldmund's post are the textbook definition of throwing the baby out with the bathwater. How stubborn. Forum idealism? Give me a break. I can't believe someone would choose complete ignorance over...looking like meanies to the chartzzz crowd.
Violence Jack
Member
Damn. Three of the best games that I've played all year (SO, Alien, and B2) didn't chart. I wasn't expecting B2 to be up there (even though it was sold out by 5PM pretty much at every store around my area on launch day), but I'm shocked by Alien and SO. I guess some people are still too burned by the Colonial Marines disaster that they have no faith in another Alien game so soon.
Neuromancer
Member
I know this is a really unpopular opinion but I agree with Goldmund (although I wouldn't have put it as harshly as he/she did). I don't think people should share information here if it gets them in trouble, and what information people do share we should be able to discuss freely.
That said I'm sorry Aquamarine was so upset about it that she asked for a ban. I'm also sorry creamsugar lost his/her source.
CosmicQueso
Member
Tens to hundreds of thousands, actually, depending on depth of data and contract length.
It's still not NPD's data to share even if it wanted to. It would need to get agreement from all the associated parties (retail, pubs, 1st parties), and there's really no incentive for those companies to agree to share that information publicly.
Especially since we're in a transition to digital platforms. Packaged sales now account for less than half of all SW revenues, and total spend continues to grow even as packaged results continue to show declines. Releasing this data publicly would just cause far more confusion and trouble than it'd be worth. Look at quarterly earnings reports, you'll find much better information there on the health of pubs and the industry.
NPD day used to be a huge deal at all game publishers. Now? I wonder how many people even open email attachments with detail beyond total sales and share.
thelastword
Banned
They had no choice, they need to combat the moving train that is PS4. Still, if your console doesn't have the mindshare then it could be priced as low as $99 dollar gamecubes and still stay on shelves.
But part of the appeal of GAF is that we get trade info (I don't necessarily just mean NPD but also new games, policies etc) prior to most other websites. All of this info is usually secret and people are taking a certain amount of risk sharing it.
speculawyer
Member
At this point I think we can say that NPD's ability to report on software is slipping in that they just don't get all of the market due to digital sales.
NPD keeps reporting 'Software sales down X%' month after month but EA, Activision, and Take-Two have all reported great earnings results. Or if they are still capturing much of the market, perhaps the software being down is due to the lack of handheld software sales and Wii/WiiU software sales?
NPD keeps reporting 'Software sales down X%' month after month but EA, Activision, and Take-Two have all reported great earnings results. Or if they are still capturing much of the market, perhaps the software being down is due to the lack of handheld software sales and Wii/WiiU software sales?
Yeah, seems Nintendo learned their lesson with the GC and didn't hit the price panic button with the WiiU as such.
Interfectum
Member
So Bayonetta 2, Driveclub, Sunset Overdrive and Alien Isolation all tanked? Jeeze.
Phoenician_Viking
Banned
I hope that Insomniac is doing well. I really like them.
Yes it does. It proves that power played a pivotal role in the early life of PS2. Unlike your 3DS example which was such a bad equivalency, that had nothing to do with my point.
Yes it does. It proves that power played a pivotal role in the early life of PS2. Unlike your 3DS example which was such a bad equivalency, that had nothing to do with my point.
Somebody give Goldmund a tag, I vote on "He's the reason we can't gave nice things"
sort of joking, still mad though.
Yeah, it bombed...hard.
I would've expected it to be in the top 10 but unfortunately it wasn't.
Yeah. I mean, I want to see the numbers, and I can't stand that, right now, we only have a very solid estimate for Wii U (sorry little buddy), but Aquamarine is a fantastic member for this community. NPD leaks were just one part of her contribution here...heck, maybe the smallest part, considering all the rest (analysis, infos about companies / industries, games, being a good person to talk with). Hopefully, in 5 days, she'll be that fantastic member again, leaks or no leaks.
I appreciate what people like John, cream, Aqua and Cosmo do for us, trying to keep us informed as much as they can without being in danger. Every month, they risk to tell us something about how things are actually going (at least at retail), and we're talking about infos from thousands-dollars-monthly-worthy subscriptions. We should be very thankful to them, but we should also find out a system so they can be protected as much as possible when leaks happen. Which is what Aqua tried to do last month, but, you know, when there are entitled users who just can't stand quoting a post to see what's hiding, it's difficult to establish such a system.
AgentP
Thinks mods influence posters politics. Promoted to QAnon Editor.
Facism
Member
yup, hopefully Halo and Unity suffer the same fate so devs take a hint about sorting their product out before they release it.
As for the Aqua drama, she gave us a lot of utility at risk to herself and we should all be grateful for what she has provided in the past. We've lost her sales/financial analysis and reasoning, which i felt was far more valuable than who sold what and how many of.
Graphics Horse
Member
I suspect it's a bit of both.
Petrae
Member
NPD's software sales data has quickly lost relevance, unless you're involved directly in the brick-and-mortar retail side of the business. The inability to gather digital sales tracking data and merge it with the physical side ultimately leaves off too much information.
Doesn't really matter the damage is done plus Goldmund hasn't posted for a month so they may be gone anyway.
Not true, SO had bundles sold out and ranked 9th individually. It just didn't beat those games with all 4 consoles counting
I can almost guarantee you people like Canis and Goldmund were not looking out for the image/well-being of GAF/Aqua, even if they said it. It was basically too much work/effort to see numbers and they threw their toys down and whined.
1st Course
Member
All of them have way bigger OTS here than NBA yet they all end up selling much less.
Show you just how internet hype =/= real world hype.
Look at Konami, Capcom, Square-Enix, SEGA, ... The biggest ones are getting bigger, but almost everyone is suffering.
Full-game downloads are still only 20% max so it's really not big of a deal. But if i were to follow this line of thought, you can just as well argue that because more and more of the sales go untracked via digital, then the retail data isn't as important and thus they will be more lax about sharing it, knowing they have the real and complete data which they will share with the shareholders.
If you would like to know how a title performed in unit sales then earning reports are close to useless. You'd be lucky to get a total shipped figure.
Nightengale
Member
Digital + DLC + Global Sales + Microtransacations.
Sure, NPD's grasp is weaker due to the digital factor, but it's not as if digital sales are a huge anomaly. The big AAA releases on consoles won't suddenly have a 50% digital sales ratio for one game, and then suddenly only 5% on the other.