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[berzeli]

I love people getting irrationally angry over congestion charges. They work. And when done right, they are quite popular (or rather get quite popular).

This is a graph from when Stockholm introduced it:

(congestion pricing was introduced in 2006)

And they did a very detailed analysis of it.

The charging system consists of a cordon around the inner city, with a time‐differentiated toll being charged in each direction. Traffic across the cordon was reduced by around 20%, leading to substantial congestion reductions in and around the city.

Approximately 25% person trips across the cordon disappeared. Out of these, around 10 percentage points out were work trips switching to transit, while one percentage point was work trips switching to the Essinge Bypass (hence, route switching was only a minor adaptation strategy). Six percentage points were discretionary trips switching to other destinations or reducing trip frequency, possibly by trip chaining or combining trip purposes, and under one percentage point switching to the Essinge Bypass. The remaining five percentage points are disappearing professional traffic—deliveries, taxi, craftsmen etc. Since we do not have travel surveys for this type of traffic, we cannot
decompose it further. That professional traffic is affected at all by the relatively low charges may come as a surprise, but there is significant evidence in the interview studies carried out with professional drivers that they in fact tried to plan their routes and trip chains in order not to cross the cordon unnecessarily often, and moreover to decrease the number of trips altogether.

And a TED talk for those who don't want to read.

Now both of those focuses on the congestion bit, not where the money goes. But Stockholm recently finished work on a (long overdue) expansion of its railway capacity. Guess what financed it in part?

 

[titiklabingapat]

Oh and induced demand is a thing. You make it easier to drive and guess what? People will drive more and you are back where you started off. This is the reason why widening freeways in the middle of the city is a waste of time and money.

 

[CartridgeBlower]

Doesn't something like this discriminate against poorer people? Like this will literally make it easier to access different parts of the city if you spend more money, and harder if you don't have that money to spend...

 

[Basileus777]

Doesn't something like this discriminate against poorer people? Like this will literally make it easier to access different parts of the city based on how much money you spend.

Poor people use public transportation. Which is not in a great state in NYC.

But Stockholm recently finished work on a (long overdue) expansion of its railway capacity. Guess what financed it in part?

Which happened because that money was earmarked for it, which is what much of this thread is wishing for anyway. People are skeptical in large part because Cuomo has a reputation for being a snake.

 

[vern]

.

I legit can't tell if you are being serious lol.. If you are, that is just stupid. We are talking about navigating inside the city, not navigating from city to city. They just need to increase mass transit and have it be on time without having so many delays.

Don't know the feasibility of elevated roads in NYC (I've driven there plenty of times but don't know the actual infrastructure requirements and whatnot), but elevated highways through cities like Shanghai are a godsend. Don't know why you lol at the thought of roads within a city as opposed from city to city. Actually I think manhattan would be pretty awesome with 2 elevated ring roads.

 

[berzeli]

Which happened because that money was earmarked for it, which is what much of this thread is wishing for anyway. People are skeptical in large part because Cuomo has a reputation for being a snake.

Hence the "when done right".

I have no doubt that if anyone can fuck this up it's the good people of Albany.

 

[hydrophilic attack]

I love people getting irrationally angry over congestion charges. They work. And when done right, they are quite popular (or rather get quite popular).

This is a graph from when Stockholm introduced it:

(congestion pricing was introduced in 2006)

And they did a very detailed analysis of it.



And a TED talk for those who don't want to read.

Now both of those focuses on the congestion bit, not where the money goes. But Stockholm recently finished work on a (long overdue) expansion of its railway capacity. Guess what financed it in part?

Yup. People whined and whined before it was introduced, but it worked out great

 

[plagiarize]

Congestion charges work.

Also, buy an EV and you likely won't have to pay.

Driving in New York is surprisingly easy once you figure out how they laid out the one way streets.

I'd drive through NYC a hundred times to never have to drive through Boston again.

 

[SpartanN92]

I'm not from NY so I have no skin in this game but isn't maintaining the infrastructure what your tax dollars are supposed to be going to to begin with???

I'm for cutting taxes across the board and all I ever hear is "But who will pay for the roads???" Well they aren't getting paid for now right?

 

[Zyae]

No. Fuck this. Always inventing a new way to suck money out of already over taxed citizens.

Fix the god damned subways if you want to reduce energy traffic. Until then people gonna catch a cab and call Uber.

how do you propose they fix the subways. Shut all of them down at once?

 

[Mr_Moogle]

No. Fuck this. Always inventing a new way to suck money out of already over taxed citizens.

Fix the god damned subways if you want to reduce energy traffic. Until then people gonna catch a cab and call Uber.

Americans over-taxed? Wtf?

 

[tbm24]

Sensible post. People own cars outside of NYC especially on Long Island because public transportation there is non-existent. No car, no job. Even if you take the train to the city....need that car to get to the train station. Buses are limited and hourly.

You know what makes it harder for people living in Long Island having to own a car? The LIRR monthly or even single pass ticket being so expensive. The LIRR monthly is more than a car payment, so what are they going to do? Haul their ass to manhattan or close enough in Brooklyn and queens or even the bronx(though with the toll I don't see this as likely). What does that do besides cause congestion towards the city? Causes congestion in neighborhoods. Causes more accidents as people fight with their cars to not be late so they don't lose their jobs. While a congestion tax fixing this depends on the money actually being used for infrastructure and the trains and subsidizing the transit costs, it seems to me as one of the better and more realistic ways for that to possibly happen.

 

[CrocMother]

Americans over-taxed? Wtf?

American car drivers are some of the most entitled people...

 

[Basileus777]

Americans over-taxed? Wtf?

There are higher taxed areas in the northeast. The entire country isn't some "low tax paradise."

 

[hydrophilic attack]

There are higher taxed areas in the northeast. The entire country isn't some "low tax paradise."

no i'd describe it as more of a "low-tax dystopia"

 

[TarNaru33]

Don't know the feasibility of elevated roads in NYC (I've driven there plenty of times but don't know the actual infrastructure requirements and whatnot), but elevated highways through cities like Shanghai are a godsend. Don't know why you lol at the thought of roads within a city as opposed from city to city. Actually I think manhattan would be pretty awesome with 2 elevated ring roads.

I just don't see it happening for NYC and I can't imagine the amount of planning to do so. Shanghai is a different story with a different form of government.

Mass transit is the better idea for NYC (and the world) if they can get it updated, though I am aware cost for updating infrastructure in NY is incredibly expensive.

 

[Basileus777]

no i'd describe it as more of a "low-tax dystopia"

What do you think those quotation marks mean?

 

[stryker1138]

Lol @ all these "it'll fix congestion!" posts. Those people have to go somewhere, guys, and riding the subway during peak hours already means wedging yourself into a death trap. To be honest I'm kind of amazed we haven't had a crowd crush tragedy yet. De-incentivizing driving only works if there's capacity in other transportation networks to pick up the slack. Tax revenue needs to come from areas that don't directly exacerbate the problem it's intended to fix.

 

[Psychoward]

Nah fuck that, just punishing the poor while the rich don't have to deal with it and can laugh it off.

And the subways/trains are already overcrowded and lord knows they've got enough issues right now.

 

[aeolist]

cuomo really aiming to drop below 50% popularity

i haven't been to nyc in a while but everyone i know there fucking hates this dude

 

[B-Dubs]

Doesn't something like this discriminate against poorer people? Like this will literally make it easier to access different parts of the city if you spend more money, and harder if you don't have that money to spend...

Poor people don't drive in Manhattan.

cuomo really aiming to drop below 50% popularity

i haven't been to nyc in a while but everyone i know there fucking hates this dude

So long as the money goes towards fixing the subways it won't be an issue.

 

[Tuck]

No. Fuck this. Always inventing a new way to suck money out of already over taxed citizens.

Fix the god damned subways if you want to reduce energy traffic. Until then people gonna catch a cab and call Uber.

They can't afford to fix the subways.

Doesn't something like this discriminate against poorer people? Like this will literally make it easier to access different parts of the city if you spend more money, and harder if you don't have that money to spend...

You aren't wrong but this argument doesn't really apply in Manhatten. Poor people don't drive in manhatten.

 

[stryker1138]

They can't afford to fix the subways.

This isn't complicated. Charge another quarter for a big gulp, tack another percentage point onto real estate taxes, whatever you have to do. But trying to fix a subway system that's already bursting at the seams by going after the only real alternative is like stabbing your left leg because your right is swollen.

 

[hydrophilic attack]

For people saying "just fix the subway". That shit takes a LOT of time. Meanwhile, I made a suggestion last page that can be done pretty much overnight (well steps one to three anyway)

They should do the following:

1. Massively increase the number of public transportation commuters' buses from outside the city

2. Make one lane on each highway going into the city bus only. So that people taking the bus save hours each day compared to those that go by car

3. Pay for increased public transportation with money raised from these congestion poll

4. As less and less people use cars, close down car parks (and increase rates on those remaining by A LOT). Build housing in freed up space.

The only losers will be people living outside the city who would rather kill the planet by going in their own car than taking the bus like a pleb

No one responded. I would love to see tha arguments against the approach outlined above

 

[Narroo]

So, reduce congestion by only letting rich people drive? Okay. I suppose it's a solution that technically works and easy, but screws over a lot of people.

Also...how are they going to toll people? Overhead scanners?

 

[LJ11]

Waited too long to address the problem and now they're scrambling to get a quick fix as usage is at an all time high. If only politicians were proactive instead of reactive. Good luck getting this under control. Given how ungodly expensive it is to do anything involving the subway I don't have much faith.

 

[jwhit28]

Sounds like the transportation version of Cigarette Taxes.

 

[Narroo]

Oh and induced demand is a thing. You make it easier to drive and guess what? People will drive more and you are back where you started off. This is the reason why widening freeways in the middle of the city is a waste of time and money.

Isn't that basically a case of: "It works better now so it's worth it"? If driving is unfeasible due to congestion, of course less people want to use it. Refusing to improve public infrastructure because people might actually use it if it works is kinda a silly idea.

 

[Battersea Power Station]

This is a no-brainer.* Driving into Manhattan is waaaaay too cheap for the value it provides. I wonder if Freakonomics has done an episode on it. I know they did one on "free parking," and what a terrible idea that is for busy city centers.

*it being a no-brainer doesn't mean it will be easy to pass, since people are against everything just to be against it

 

[Ether_Snake]

Put a fee on all parking spaces, use the money to finance the public transport. In a dense city it's a no brainer.

This is a no-brainer.* Driving into Manhattan is waaaaay too cheap for the value it provides. I wonder if Freakonomics has done an episode on it. I know they did one on "free parking," and what a terrible idea that is for busy city centers.

*it being a no-brainer doesn't mean it will be easy to pass, since people are against everything just to be against it

One similar article on bloomberg: Lyft's radical parking experiment. More difficult for a business, but a city should definitely just go ahead and put a fee on parking.

Singapore charges the fuck out of people who drive and have quotas, and it works. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Certificate_of_Entitlement It can cost more than getting a car to get the certificate.

Time to move into the 21st century.

 

[tbm24]

So, reduce congestion by only letting rich people drive? Okay. I suppose it's a solution that technically works and easy, but screws over a lot of people.

Also...how are they going to toll people? Overhead scanners?

Cameras, they're already converting bridges to mail you the toll instead of pay as you go.

 

[ahoyhoy]

cuomo really aiming to drop below 50% popularity

i haven't been to nyc in a while but everyone i know there fucking hates this dude

Upstate liberals love him though.

Course there are more Republicans up there who hate his guts so there's that.

 

[lachesis]

Well, I work at 66th, normally on off-peak hours - so I'm safe.. (Drive in every day, via GWB - and GWB isn't part of this whole thing).... I rarely go downtown, so I have no quarrel.

But the idea of even more tax, even though I'm not an NY resident, I feel for the ones who would need to pay - it's not like the Subway and buses are the greatest ever in NYC...

 

[The Faceless Master]

So, reduce congestion by only letting rich people drive? Okay. I suppose it's a solution that technically works and easy, but screws over a lot of people.

Also...how are they going to toll people? Overhead scanners?

they're already converting everything to toll with cameras. you get mailed a bill.

 

[darkhunger]

This isn't complicated. Charge another quarter for a big gulp, tack another percentage point onto real estate taxes, whatever you have to do. But trying to fix a subway system that's already bursting at the seams by going after the only real alternative is like stabbing your left leg because your right is swollen.

The subways are "bursting at the seams" but they need to make investments, such as upgrading the signal system to run more trains, to fix that. Driving into Manhattan is not a "real alternative" by any means.

 

[GK86]

So, reduce congestion by only letting rich people drive? Okay. I suppose it's a solution that technically works and easy, but screws over a lot of people.

Also...how are they going to toll people? Overhead scanners?

EZ pass + cameras that take pictures of your plates and mail you the bill.

 

[Kill3r7]

Fuck off. Do your job and fix the Subways. If the trains worked congestion would not be as bad.

 

[Soybean]

Thanks for everyone citing the data. Congestion pricing works. Disincentivizing car use has many benefits beyond traffic too.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

No, fuck you.

Grow up.

Pay the real cost of owning a god damned car.

"Shut up and let me raise your taxes how dare you not want your taxes to go up where are you going come back at here I'm not done yelling at you!!!!!" This is you. This is how you sound. It's shrill and tone-deaf and void of any real intelligence. There's a way to have a disagreement with someone. This ain't it.

Why should my tax dollars subsidize you if you are not willing to help pay for transit?

Pretty sure I give NYC more than you for transit every month, lol. And that's in addition to paying the cost of owning a car. And now they want more. Nah.

Fuck off. Do your job and fix the Subways. If the trains worked congestion would not be as bad.

Read: This.

 

[Woo-Fu]

Doesn't something like this discriminate against poorer people? Like this will literally make it easier to access different parts of the city if you spend more money, and harder if you don't have that money to spend...

Which in turn would mean that the current pay for jobs downtown that those people are commuting to would have to increase or they wouldn't be able to fill the positions.

It works out either way.

On top of that, as somebody who used to live in the East Village I can tell you for a fact that those people are already on the bus or the subway. They can't afford the parking.

I didn't even bring my car into the city, and anything less than oh, say, 20 blocks I'd walk before bothering with subway/cab. It is actually quicker to walk, quite often.

 

[Psychoward]

No, fuck you. Pay the real cost of owning a god damned car.

Why should my tax dollars subsidize you if you are not willing to help pay for transit?

Do you realize how expensive parking is in NYC? Especially since free parking is a goddamn death trap shitshow.

Also your taxes already go in to the transit system even if you've never been on a subway in your life...

 

[Helznicht]

Fuck off. Do your job and fix the Subways. If the trains worked congestion would not be as bad.

This is a good read:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/22/nyregion/subway-service-mta-age.html?mcubz=3

They really do not have the money, BUT.......

As someone who works for a company that is doing some of the upgrade works on the NYCTA (and personally has bid on those projects) they simply kill themselves with regulations. As we do rail and transit work all over the world, there is a reason that NTCTA bids are 3 times the cost for a third of the track miles compared to other transit agencies, and its self inflicted. But NY gotta NY.

 

[titiklabingapat]

Isn't that basically a case of: "It works better now so it's worth it"? If driving is unfeasible due to congestion, of course less people want to use it. Refusing to improve public infrastructure because people might actually use it if it works is kinda a silly idea.

Yes and people will alter their behavior so they drive more as a result. You're then back to square one of the same exact number of congestion you just sunk tons of time and money in to 'fix'.

Do the opposite and people will alter their behavior the opposite way.

 

[AntraxSuicide]

Lol @ all these people posting data while I clutch pearls irrationally

FTFY

 

[simplayer]

"Shut up and let me raise your taxes how dare you not want your taxes to go up where are you going come back at here I'm not done yelling at you!!!!!" This is you. This is how you sound. It's shrill and tone-deaf and void of any real intelligence. There's a way to have a disagreement with someone. This ain't it.

No, he’s saying to start paying more of the full price of what it costs to use your car.

Get rid of parking minimums, charge congestion pricing and or gas tax based on VMT and carbon taxes.

You don’t want to pay more than you already do, I understand that, but we shouldn’t be subsidizing car use. It’s not intellectually void to say that

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

This solution is so obvious, people are going to hate it. Of course if something is free, people will use it. Supply and demand. Economics 101.

 

[Violet_0]

I'm surprised people here are so against this idea tbh.

This helps accomplish two important goals at once. Reduce pollution from cars, and bolster public transportation.

when you mix GAF and cars, it gets weird. Many people here are also vehemently against the idea of reducing the amount in parking lots in cities for more living space

 

[NimbusD]

Do you realize how expensive parking is in NYC? Especially since free parking is a goddamn death trap shitshow.

Also your taxes already go in to the transit system even if you've never been on a subway in your life...

This thread is really showing that people don't understand taxes or tolls at all. I don't drive I still pay taxes for roads. People who drive don't pay for all of it lol.

 

[neurosisxeno]

Congestion charges work.

Also, buy an EV and you likely won't have to pay.

Driving in New York is surprisingly easy once you figure out how they laid out the one way streets.

I'd drive through NYC a hundred times to never have to drive through Boston again.

Boston is the worst. The absolute worst. Driving in and out of Boston is pretty much the worst experience of my life. The signs don't seem to matter, nobody pays attention to what other people are doing, and if you miss your exit you have to loop around the entire god damn city or take an incredibly confusing series of one way streets to get anywhere near where you want to go. If you doubt it's a chaotic hell hole;

 

[HariKari]

What areas would generate the charge? All of Manhattan?