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[Mammoth Jones]

No, he’s saying to start paying more of the full price of what it costs to use your car.

Get rid of parking minimums, charge congestion pricing and or gas tax based on VMT and carbon taxes.

You don’t want to pay more than you already do, I understand that, but we shouldn’t be subsidizing car use.

My point is I'm already paying an arm and a leg for a car, gas, insurance, taxes, monthly train tickets and they want more? No.

It’s not intellectually void to say that

It is when you're cursing out other posters to do that.

 

[rudger]

Didn't we just have a study that showed that increased construction was the primary cause of the increase in congestion? This kind of ignores that and just blames drivers.

 

[Pandora012]

I wouldn't mind this. Though if they want less cars they are going to need to expand the transit system, so you don't need a car to get to the bus or train.

 

[GK86]

What areas would generate the charge? All of Manhattan?

One plan suggested everything from 60th Street and below.

 

[Kill3r7]

This is a good read:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/22/nyregion/subway-service-mta-age.html?mcubz=3

They really do not have the money, BUT.......

As someone who works for a company that is doing some of the upgrade works on the NYCTA (and personally has bid on those projects) they simply kill themselves with regulations. As we do rail and transit work all over the world, there is a reason that NTCTA bids are 3 times the cost for a third of the track miles compared to other transit agencies, and its self inflicted. But NY gotta NY.

I have and I agree with what you are saying. That said, the MTA runs at a huge deficit, I understand that some of the costs will need to be passed on to commuters but they must fix the Subways and they need to fix the organization. NYC metropolitan area cannot survive without trains. I live in New Jersey and my commute is an absolute pain, mind you that I currently spend nearly $600 commuting into NYC.

 

[stryker1138]

The subways are "bursting at the seams" but they need to make investments, such as upgrading the signal system to run more trains, to fix that. Driving into Manhattan is not a "real alternative" by any means.

I think congestion taxes are a great idea in principle. I would like to see one here eventually. I also think implementing one in these specific circumstances would be dangerously premature. Overhauling the subway will entail sweeping delays and closures in a system already operating over capacity. And now you want to dump an even bigger load on top of that? All for a promise from Andrew Fucking Cuomo that the extra money will definitely-totally-absolutely-maybe make its way back down here to start repair work someday? No fucking way.

And yes, roads are the only real alternative to the subway to cover any meaningful distance, unless there's a rooftop zip line system I'm not aware of. Don't see how that's even a point of contention.

 

[CrocMother]

NYC hasn't even finished the repairs from Superstorm Sandy, which has cost over $19 billion dollars

 

[Mesoian]

Here is a plan from Move NY:

Tax all bridges and tunnels (lower the prices on some of the existing ones):

And any driver entering 60th and below would be charged:

However, this is why I would be against the plan:

Doesn't that plan bring crossing the Veranzano to 25$ each way?

 

[Crispy75]

More buses and bus lanes would help a great deal. As far as I can tell, this is the total extent of dedicated bus lanes in NYC

London invested heavily in buses and lanes when the C-charge started, and there was a big uptick in usage.

 

[Stop It]

Ah, the same arguments that the Tories trotted out against the congestion charge are being used here I see.

If you want better public transport in NYC, this charge will pay for it. For all the crap TfL get, the money raised by the congestion charge has saved the Underground.

Sure, it's still very very overcrowded at peak time, but some lines are literally getting close to capacity with trains literally every few minutes. And whisper it but reliability is increasing over time.

This won't solve a creaking public transport network overnight, but with some creative work to get the underground systems back to standard, it could make a difference to all transport in the city.

The cynical responses while understandable are misguided.

 

[AndyD]

More buses and bus lanes would help a great deal. As far as I can tell, this is the total extent of dedicated bus lanes in NYC

London invested heavily in buses and lanes when the C-charge started, and there was a big uptick in usage.

On our recent London trip everyone, cabbies and locals, all praised the congestion charge as it spurred a significant increase in public transport use and accessibility with bus lanes and routes all over. The thing they said is not working is all the bike lanes as not enough people want to bike between the buses and cabs that dominate the city.

 

[Aureon]

No. Fuck this. Always inventing a new way to suck money out of already over taxed citizens.

Fix the god damned subways if you want to reduce energy traffic. Until then people gonna catch a cab and call Uber.

You may be surprised out of this, but fixing the subways needs money.

 

[mercenar1e]

You may be surprised out of this, but fixing the subways needs money.

divert the $200 million planned for bridge lights to the subways and tunnels instead.

 

[Rktk]

It works in London, money goes to public transport infrastructure.

 

[Future]

I don't mind the idea of using taxes / tolls as a deterrent for car traffic. A lot of people will not make an effort to change their routines unless they can feel the penalty. Especially people that gotta commute to jobs: you could fucking try to carpool if you really wanted to, ya just don't and you know it. But if enough people did, congestion would drop.

Tricky thing is ensuring that the money gained is actually used for transportation infrastructure. People have been burned in so many states when money gets moved around because the state is poor and managing finances

 

[Vanillalite]

This is a prime example of the current catch 22 with regards to government revenue generation in the US.

I think more people would be fine with extra taxes and fees levied if they saw a greater return on their investment. Currently people feel stuck in the middle aka lots of cash leaving their pockets and not a lot of tangable return on their money with regards to transportation in NYC.

 

[fallengorn]

There's no way, if this went forward, that money doesn't get funneled to Albany.

 

[Crispy75]

If you want better public transport in NYC, this charge will pay for it. For all the crap TfL get, the money raised by the congestion charge has saved the Underground.

Not really. The Underground upgrades cost far more than the C-charge brings in, and the financing/procurement was a complete clusterfuck. TfL wanted to fund it with public bonds (which is a common method in the US - Ken Livingstone got Bob Kiley, ex MTA exec to lobby for the idea). But Gordon Brown at the treasury overruled him and forced PPP (public-private partenership) instead. Two private firms were assembled to do the work and then set about wasting money, bungling the job and wallowing in a pool of pointless bureaucracy. Both companies ended up in administration and had to be bought out by TfL to finish the job. Over half a billion £ wasted by some estimates.

The underground was saved by massive public investment (£10billions), with considerable disruption to the network. NYC will need the same if it wants to see the same sort of improvement.

You can see TfL's current budget to get an idea of the figures: http://content.tfl.gov.uk/board-160317-item07-budget-2016-17.pdf

The C-charge is buried in "Other"

Their operating cost is £6.4bn, repairs/renewals £1bn and their capital investment £2.4bn (more than half of which is for Crossrail)

NYC needs to find a similar £2bn figure to do what TfL has done/is doing. The C-charge will help, but it's not a panacea

 

[Draft]

I'm surprised people here are so against this idea tbh.

This helps accomplish two important goals at once. Reduce pollution from cars, and bolster public transportation.

Tell Americans they have to pay to take a car somewhere and they have a meltdown.

 

[NimbusD]

More buses and bus lanes would help a great deal. As far as I can tell, this is the total extent of dedicated bus lanes in NYC

London invested heavily in buses and lanes when the C-charge started, and there was a big uptick in usage.

Many if those aren't even enforced especially not during the most congested times. They're just another lane or a lane to park in.

 

[darkhunger]

divert the $200 million planned for bridge lights to the subways and tunnels instead.

$200 million can get a bunch of subway tiles cleaned and a few light bulbs fixed with NY construction prices.

I think congestion taxes are a great idea in principle. I would like to see one here eventually. I also think implementing one in these specific circumstances would be dangerously premature. Overhauling the subway will entail sweeping delays and closures in a system already operating over capacity. And now you want to dump an even bigger load on top of that? All for a promise from Andrew Fucking Cuomo that the extra money will definitely-totally-absolutely-maybe make its way back down here to start repair work someday? No fucking way.

And yes, roads are the only real alternative to the subway to cover any meaningful distance, unless there's a rooftop zip line system I'm not aware of. Don't see how that's even a point of contention.

Overhauling the subway means shutting down service at specific times of the day and service changes in the weekends, but it's absolutely needed in an old system like this. The biggest reason for the massive delays right now is because they haven't been doing enough of this type of maintenance.

If we're talking about the outer boroughs, commuter rail is probably an alternative to many (in regards to the subway), problem is they are too expensive for the common folk. Ridesharing might be an alternative one day, but right now they are only creating more and more congestion due to the addition of tens of thousands of cars on the road. Driving is definitely not a real alternative by any mean for anyone who's some rich executive with his own company parking spot.

 

[Draxal]

Boston is the worst. The absolute worst. Driving in and out of Boston is pretty much the worst experience of my life. The signs don't seem to matter, nobody pays attention to what other people are doing, and if you miss your exit you have to loop around the entire god damn city or take an incredibly confusing series of one way streets to get anywhere near where you want to go. If you doubt it's a chaotic hell hole;

I mean, there is a reason why New York has the grid and its not exactly a pretty reason.

Pretend I've never heard of NYC or congestion pricing and I entered this thread, which side do you think is doing a better job of articulating the policy and political considerations here?

In theory, I agree with the tax and the gas take hike in NJ, but they have to be earmarked for the right purposes and people are skeptical. I do think posters on gaf rhetorical skills are lacking, but then again name a forum which does have them?

 

[Fenderputty]

Congestion pricing is amazing, wtf is this thread.

Congestion pricing is like the only thing that actually reduces traffic other than more buses.

Maybe do that first, then.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

Doesn't something like this discriminate against poorer people? Like this will literally make it easier to access different parts of the city if you spend more money, and harder if you don't have that money to spend...

no

Poorer people don't go to downtown and midtown in cars.

Like these "questions" keep popping up and they show clear ignorance of NYC and congestion pricing in general.

My point is I'm already paying an arm and a leg for a car, gas, insurance, taxes, monthly train tickets and they want more? No.

Do you live in the city? Why do you have a car and get a monthly train ticket?

Maybe do that first, then.

You can't because the roads are too crowded and bus service sucks. You need to take cars off the road.

In theory, I agree with the tax and the gas take hike in NJ, but they have to be earmarked for the right purposes and people are skeptical. I do think posters on gaf rhetorical skills are lacking, but then again name a forum which does have them?

Nah, its not a "lack of rhetorical skills"

its that congestion pricing makes clear sense. Literally the only argument is I don't want to pay more even though I'm being subsidized already.

Tell Americans they have to pay to take a car somewhere and they have a meltdown.

This.

Its taken as a god given right. Which makes no sense in a city like new york which has numerous alternatives.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

This is a prime example of the current catch 22 with regards to government revenue generation in the US.

I think more people would be fine with extra taxes and fees levied if they saw a greater return on their investment. Currently people feel stuck in the middle aka lots of cash leaving their pockets and not a lot of tangable return on their money with regards to transportation in NYC.

This makes no sense
Car commuters from LI, Upper Manhattan, Westchester and Brooklyn and Queens LITERALLY PAY NOTHING for what they use right now. They're being subsidized.

I don't know why they feel they're not getting a tangable return. Its subway and other transit riders who won't be affected by this who would see a tangible return, less cars, safer streets, more money to repair subways.

 

[Draxal]

Nah, its not a "lack of rhetorical skills"

its that congestion pricing makes clear sense. Literally the only argument is I don't want to pay more even though I'm being subsidized already.

I think NYC (and the greater tristate) is in for a rude awakening, as they're afraid to close service for a bit to improve service (see all the bitching about the Goethals Bridge at the time in NJ), especially when the tristate is so godawful at infrastructure improvement (see the route 3 disaster in NJ taking an eternity).

However, what he failed to do mention in those posts is the historical mistrust of Albany in NYC, he's just basically posting out of emotion atm.

 

[Deleted member 284]

Not penny pinch poor drivers for having the audacity to use a car?

No poor person is commuting to Manhattan via car for work. To be frank, I'm willing to bet the people commuting by car live in Staten Island or outside of the boroughs (Long Island, Upstate NY, NJ, etc). I live in BK and the only reason I have a car is to commute to Long Island every day. Luckily for me, I might be selling my SUV this afternoon

 

[Kill3r7]

This makes no sense
Car commuters from LI, Upper Manhattan, Westchester and Brooklyn and Queens LITERALLY PAY NOTHING for what they use right now. They're being subsidized.

I don't know why they feel they're not getting a tangable return. Its subway and other transit riders who won't be affected by this who would see a tangible return, less cars, safer streets, more money to repair subways.

That is what they are selling us but I don't have to buy it. In my 33 years living in the tristate area I have seen money earmarked for infrastructure be syphoned by politicians for all sorts of other projects. Meanwhile our infrastructure continues to crumble and the MTA and NJTransit run at a deficit. Let me know when a NJ governor will finally do away with the parkway tolls as promised over many decades ago. FWIW, I don't drive in the city because I take NJTransit, Path or Ferry and the Subway. That said, I fully understand why many people are currently opting to drive. The train delays over the last 6-9 months have been unbearable and are jeopardizing peoples jobs and adding unnecessary stress to their lives. If some folks opt to drive that is great for the rest of us who take the Subway/public transportation because it is not as crowded. I would be surprised if the money generated from these tolls ever found its way to the MTA.

 

[The Greek Freak]

Maybe NYC should stop propping up the rest of the state with their tax dollars instead?

Ah, the same arguments that the Tories trotted out against the congestion charge are being used here I see.

If you want better public transport in NYC, this charge will pay for it. For all the crap TfL get, the money raised by the congestion charge has saved the Underground.

Sure, it's still very very overcrowded at peak time, but some lines are literally getting close to capacity with trains literally every few minutes. And whisper it but reliability is increasing over time.

This won't solve a creaking public transport network overnight, but with some creative work to get the underground systems back to standard, it could make a difference to all transport in the city.

The cynical responses while understandable are misguided.

You know nothing about NY politics, 95%+ of this tax money will be spend outside of NYC and will do nothing to help anything in terms of NYC congestion.

 

[Weapxn]

I don't drive here, so this is a bit whatever to me...

But sometimes I really fucking hate living in this city.

 

[simplayer]

My point is I'm already paying an arm and a leg for a car, gas, insurance, taxes, monthly train tickets and they want more? No.

My point is your car use is being subsidized. It's time to stop doing that, especially in transit rich areas like NYC.

 

[jstripes]

I say go for it.

You'd have to be crazy to drive in Manhattan anyway.

 

[Bloodporne]

More tax money = more payoffs, bribes, miscellaneous fuckery in others' pockets

That's it. Whoever thinks NYC taking money from you to invest in 'good things' to help you either A) doesn't live here B) lives here and is absurdly naive for a New Yorker C) I don't know.

Either way. No thank you. People act like drivers actually want to drive in Manhattan for some bizarre reason. As a resident of this fair city that does drive in it on a regular basis...that is not the case. There are so many factors that may force you in a corner here to where driving may be a necessity for your job or whatever it is, it's just not that simple to assume the subway is the solution to it all. It's a broken down fucking wreck of a system that is just as overcrowded and congested as the streets above.

Cuomo can go fuck himself as usual. The stupid dad-speaking-to-a-bad-child inflection in his voice is enough to set me off at this point.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Do you live in the city? Why do you have a car and get a monthly train ticket?

No, I work in the city. Way to expensive to live inside for the room my family needs. Rent near my job would be $2,975/month for two bed one bath which is what we have now.

Need monthly train to get to work. Need a car for everything else.

My point is your car use is being subsidized. It's time to stop doing that, especially in transit rich areas like NYC.

And my point is no. Stop hurting and fucking over working class people. This doesn't affect wealthy people. They'll pay the extra shit and keep it moving. But I mean we disagree. It is what it is. Hope this gets shat on in Albany.

More tax money = more payoffs, bribes, miscellaneous fuckery in others' pockets

That's it. Whoever thinks NYC taking money from you to invest in 'good things' to help you either A) doesn't live here B) lives here and is absurdly naive for a New Yorker C) I don't know.

Either way. No thank you. People act like drivers actually want to drive in Manhattan for some bizarre reason. As a resident of this fair city that does drive in it on a regular basis...that is not the case. There are so many factors that may force you in a corner here to where driving may be a necessity for your job or whatever it is, it's just not that simple to assume the subway is the solution to it all. It's a broken down fucking wreck of a system that is just as overcrowded and congested as the streets above.

Cuomo can go fuck himself as usual. The stupid dad-speaking-to-a-bad-child inflection in his voice is enough to set me off at this point.

Preach!

 

[Soapbox Killer]

This is worse than the Soda Tax. Is raising taxes the only fix these people understand?

 

[hodgy100]

London has congestion charges and it makes the city centre much easier to get around

 

[Quixzlizx]

No, I work in the city. Way to expensive to live inside for the room my family needs. Rent near my job would be $2,975/month for two bed one bath which is what we have now.

Need monthly train to get to work. Need a car for everything else.



And my point is no. Stop hurting and fucking over working class people. This doesn't affect wealthy people. They'll pay the extra shit and keep it moving. But I mean we disagree. It is what it is. Hope this gets shat on in Albany.



Preach!

Haven't you mentioned in the past that you are past the threshold for free SUNY tuition, which is a six-figure number?

Even if I agree that you aren't rich, you're sure as hell not "working class," unless your definition of working class is literally anyone who has a job.

Also, if you don't live in the city, why you do need to be driving around midtown all the time?