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[Madness]

If your takeaway from the article is that it focused on one individual who was caught up in the system then you didn't read it very closely. There are lots of people in solitary or in prison who need psychological treatment, not punishment. There are systemic issues that cause more problems than they solve.

It doesn't have to be this way.

And what way should it be? Please tell me your grand plan for housing violent and dangerous offenders, in a way that it provides safety and security for other people, including guards, chaplains, prison workers, staff and other inmates.

Yeah, there needs to be greater need for mental illness facilities in the US, Canada, UK, pretty much everywhere. A lot of people are in prison who need psychological help. But the point of solitary confinement is for people who have shown they are flight risks, because people who escape can and have killed, assaulted, raped, numerous people over the decades. It's for people who are a threat to others and cannot be in the same room as another person, because they have killed, assaulted, raped numerous people over the decades. It's for people who are most likely going to be killed themselves if they were put with other offenders, because of the nature of their crimes. There are tons of people who would love to be housed with the 9/11 hijackers, or a serial killer, etc.

My comment was against someone who said that much like the death penalty, life in prison/solitary confinement should be equally seen as cruel and unusual punishment. I just think a lot of you don't know what kind of criminals there are or have experienced anything like it yourselves. The majority of people in solitary confinement are there for their benefit. It's much more expensive, time consuming to house them in such conditions. Not only do they receive special food, but need to be constantly monitored on camera as well. Believe me, in the US, they'd love to just house 400 people in a single yard and let them do what they want, but we don't allow that.

And again, I focused on that one person because it became about how certain individuals were housed there, when I highlighted the most important part for Jonas. He wasn't there to satisfy American bloodlust like someone claimed, but because he had already assaulted inmates 3 times before people got fed up.

 

[evil solrac v3.0]

It makes for an interesting comparison, say against Norway's maximum security Halden prison:

Norway also isn't housing members of al Qaeda , aryan brotherhood members, Mexican cartel bosses and serial killers.

 

[Tinfoilhatsron]

And what way should it be? Please tell me your grand plan for housing violent and dangerous offenders, in a way that it provides safety and security for other people, including guards, chaplains, prison workers, staff and other inmates.

Yeah, there needs to be greater need for mental illness facilities in the US, Canada, UK, pretty much everywhere. A lot of people are in prison who need psychological help. But the point of solitary confinement is for people who have shown they are flight risks, because people who escape can and have killed, assaulted, raped, numerous people over the decades. It's for people who are a threat to others and cannot be in the same room as another person, because they have killed, assaulted, raped numerous people over the decades. It's for people who are most likely going to be killed themselves if they were put with other offenders, because of the nature of their crimes. There are tons of people who would love to be housed with the 9/11 hijackers, or a serial killer, etc.

My comment was against someone who said that much like the death penalty, life in prison/solitary confinement should be equally seen as cruel and unusual punishment. I just think a lot of you don't know what kind of criminals there are or have experienced anything like it yourselves. The majority of people in solitary confinement are there for their benefit. It's much more expensive, time consuming to house them in such conditions. Not only do they receive special food, but need to be constantly monitored on camera as well. Believe me, in the US, they'd love to just house 400 people in a single yard and let them do what they want, but we don't allow that.

And again, I focused on that one person because it became about how certain individuals were housed there, when I highlighted the most important part for Jonas. He wasn't there to satisfy American bloodlust like someone claimed, but because he had already assaulted inmates 3 times before people got fed up.

"It's okay to sacrifice one guy to this kind of horrible system... as long as it isn't me." Same logic with the death penalty. Innocents can be sacrificed! (To a system that doesn't work)

 

[kame-sennin]

They have access to books and periodicals. They also have a TV and have access to crafts. They are allowed time outside, have their own showers, etc. Many of them killed dozens to hundreds of people. What more do you want them to have?

Inflicting savagery on savage men still makes one a savage.

 

[Piggus]

Inflicting savagery on savage men still makes one a savage.

So what do you want them to have? You didn't answer the question.

 

[DrForester]

I'd be curious to know if maybe the prison system could set up a prison intranet. Give these prisoners the ability to socialize on a isolated message board or something, if that would allow enough human contact.

 

[Madness]

"It's okay to sacrifice one guy to this kind of horrible system... as long as it isn't me." Same logic with the death penalty. Innocents can be sacrificed! (To a system that doesn't work)

What kind of drive-by shitpost is this? Where did I say that? And do you actually have anything to contribute, maybe give your suggestions to an actual system that 'does work', supposedly. This is why I don't like posting or engaging much now. Hardly anyone wants to have actual meaningful discussions. Just what they feel in one-liners that don't address anything except cherry pick something out of context. Keep on keeping on I guess. I'm out.

 

[Zaptruder]

And what way should it be? Please tell me your grand plan for housing violent and dangerous offenders, in a way that it provides safety and security for other people, including guards, chaplains, prison workers, staff and other inmates.

Yeah, there needs to be greater need for mental illness facilities in the US, Canada, UK, pretty much everywhere. A lot of people are in prison who need psychological help. But the point of solitary confinement is for people who have shown they are flight risks, because people who escape can and have killed, assaulted, raped, numerous people over the decades. It's for people who are a threat to others and cannot be in the same room as another person, because they have killed, assaulted, raped numerous people over the decades. It's for people who are most likely going to be killed themselves if they were put with other offenders, because of the nature of their crimes. There are tons of people who would love to be housed with the 9/11 hijackers, or a serial killer, etc.

My comment was against someone who said that much like the death penalty, life in prison/solitary confinement should be equally seen as cruel and unusual punishment. I just think a lot of you don't know what kind of criminals there are or have experienced anything like it yourselves. The majority of people in solitary confinement are there for their benefit. It's much more expensive, time consuming to house them in such conditions. Not only do they receive special food, but need to be constantly monitored on camera as well. Believe me, in the US, they'd love to just house 400 people in a single yard and let them do what they want, but we don't allow that.

And again, I focused on that one person because it became about how certain individuals were housed there, when I highlighted the most important part for Jonas. He wasn't there to satisfy American bloodlust like someone claimed, but because he had already assaulted inmates 3 times before people got fed up.

So... you're arguing that the American system is ideally suited to the American criminal. It's because they're so terrible that we see such poor outcomes from the ideally suitable american prison system in overall welfare, cost, recidivism, etc?

And that if we implemented alternative schemes that have proven to have more success in other countries, that American prisons will be even worse off than they are now... because American criminals are that much worse?

I think you might be operating under some kind of just world fallacy. "Things are the way they are, because it's the way it needs to be."

Perhaps consider like many others have that the american prison system directly contributes to the worse outcomes that america is experiencing? That the system is structured the way it is, in part because of non-efficacy reasons... including but not limited to prison corporations looking to ensure that they maximize their revenues and profits, while even acknowledging that recidivism... is good for business.

 

[Tinfoilhatsron]

I did. Because they focused on one individual who was 'caught up' in the system as a flight risk and transferred to the same ADX cellblock, it makes it somehow bad for the rest? Did you miss this pertinent information on Jones?

"after racking up three assault charges in less than a year (all fights with other inmates) at a medium-security facility in Louisiana, found himself transferred to the same ADX cellblock as Kaczynski."

Do you know how many inmates, guards, civilians are killed each year because of improper housing? Hell, just a couple years back, a female CO was killed in Monroe, WA because they put her alone at night with an inmate who clearly should not have been allowed human contact.

Like I wrote above, unless you've worked with offenders, studied criminology, or have actually been inside a maximum, or medium security facility, you won't understand. Solitary confinement exists to protect others who have just as much of a right to safety and security as anyone else. Is solitary confinement difficult? Of course. Just like prison is difficult. It's a consequence and punishment imposed because of past actions.

What world do you live in, where you think mass murderers, cannibals, serial killers, bombers, terrorists, should be allowed any contact with the outside world? They're lucky they're not six feet under the ground. Why should any guards, any other inmates risk living with these psychopaths? That's what they are. The worst of the worst are house in ADX and Supermax prisons.

I swear some of you really have no clue what kind of people are out there. Some guys are sociopaths and psychopaths. There is no reason for them. They won't be rehabilitated, they won't ever 'be good'. The solitary order is often to protect them from other inmates as well. There are no other sane alternatives aside from the death penalty. Don't want to experience solitary confinement? Then don't commit the types of crimes these people have.

What kind of drive-by shitpost is this? Where did I say that? And do you actually have anything to contribute, maybe give your suggestions to an actual system that 'does work', supposedly. This is why I don't like posting or engaging much now. Hardly anyone wants to have actual meaningful discussions. Just what they feel in one-liners that don't address anything except cherry pick something out of context. Keep on keeping on I guess. I'm out.

Sure. Here's your posts (out of order), the first post emphazied how someone was "caught up" in the system. Then you shift to victim blaming the inmate in question. From that point we differ because you obviously have a clear bias towards the system, by your second post. Also ignoring how the treatment of Jones was inhumane, conviently.
Edit: Yes I type choppy sentences and have grammar mistakes so its harder to get the message across, but I'm on mobile.

 

[KingGondo]

And what way should it be? Please tell me your grand plan for housing violent and dangerous offenders, in a way that it provides safety and security for other people, including guards, chaplains, prison workers, staff and other inmates.

Yeah, there needs to be greater need for mental illness facilities in the US, Canada, UK, pretty much everywhere. A lot of people are in prison who need psychological help. But the point of solitary confinement is for people who have shown they are flight risks, because people who escape can and have killed, assaulted, raped, numerous people over the decades. It's for people who are a threat to others and cannot be in the same room as another person, because they have killed, assaulted, raped numerous people over the decades. It's for people who are most likely going to be killed themselves if they were put with other offenders, because of the nature of their crimes. There are tons of people who would love to be housed with the 9/11 hijackers, or a serial killer, etc.

My comment was against someone who said that much like the death penalty, life in prison/solitary confinement should be equally seen as cruel and unusual punishment. I just think a lot of you don't know what kind of criminals there are or have experienced anything like it yourselves. The majority of people in solitary confinement are there for their benefit. It's much more expensive, time consuming to house them in such conditions. Not only do they receive special food, but need to be constantly monitored on camera as well. Believe me, in the US, they'd love to just house 400 people in a single yard and let them do what they want, but we don't allow that.

And again, I focused on that one person because it became about how certain individuals were housed there, when I highlighted the most important part for Jonas. He wasn't there to satisfy American bloodlust like someone claimed, but because he had already assaulted inmates 3 times before people got fed up.

So... Assault 3 inmates, your life is worthless?

I'm not asking for Ted Kaczynski or Terry Nichols to be pampered, but I'm fundamentally against a system in which people are left in solitary, deprived of medical care, or put to death because any risk of inflicting that torture on an undeserving (or even innocent!) person is too high.

 

[Madness]

So... Assault 3 inmates, your life is worthless?

I'm not asking for Ted Kaczynski or Terry Nichols to be pampered, but I'm fundamentally against a system in which people are left in solitary, deprived of medical care, or put to death because any risk of inflicting that torture on an undeserving (or even innocent!) person is too high.

No, assault an inmate and risk being put in solitary confinement. Assault an inmate three times and you're guaranteed it. What are you preferring? That they allow the inmate to assault an inmate a 4th time? A 5th time? I mean damn, that's the consequence of their crime and punishment. They are in prison for a reason, but they've shown they cannot be around others. Yes, if you are going to assault inmates who are serving their own time, you don't deserve to be around others. I'm sorry, I'm going to choose make sure the innocent victim is safe or has more rights than the criminal, offending party.

 

[KingGondo]

No, assault an inmate and risk being put in solitary confinement. Assault an inmate three times and you're guaranteed it. What are you preferring? That they allow the inmate to assault an inmate a 4th time? A 5th time? I mean damn, that's the consequence of their crime and punishment. They are in prison for a reason, but they've shown they cannot be around others. Yes, if you are going to assault inmates who are serving their own time, you don't deserve to be around others. I'm sorry, I'm going to choose make sure the innocent victim is safe or has more rights than the criminal, offending party.

The American prison system is one of brutality, rape, torture, deprivation, and abuse. You can't be surprised when inmates assault each other. ADX is the prison system essentially admitting that the supposed aim rehabilitation is a farce. I at least commend them for that.

It's the system that's fucked up, not the individual inmates who are subjected to that system. Even the former warden of ADX wants to go back to fix some of the problems, even while you throw your hands up and essentially say "what can you do?" That should be a sign that your opinion is ill-informed and overly simplistic.

The solutions won't be easy and they'll take time, but the current situation is unacceptable.

 

[killamajig]

The American prison system is one of brutality, rape, torture, deprivation, and abuse. You can't be surprised when inmates assault each other. ADX is the prison system essentially admitting that the supposed aim rehabilitation is a farce. I at least commend them for that.

It's the system that's fucked up, not the individual inmates who are subjected to that system. Even the former warden of ADX wants to go back to fix some of the problems, even while you throw your hands up and essentially say "what can you do?" That should be a sign that your opinion is ill-informed and overly simplistic.

The solutions won't be easy and they'll take time, but the current situation is unacceptable.

And you know this how?

I've worked as a correctional officer in a state prison. These guys that are there can't be treated like the others. I personally know of many instances where inmates attack people like you that try to go into prisons to "help" them.

You don't know what you are talking about.

 

[Madness]

The American prison system is one of brutality, rape, torture, deprivation, and abuse. You can't be surprised when inmates assault each other. ADX is the prison system essentially admitting that the supposed aim rehabilitation is a farce. I at least commend them for that.

It's the system that's fucked up, not the individual inmates who are subjected to that system. Even the former warden of ADX wants to go back to fix some of the problems, even while you throw your hands up and essentially say "what can you do?" That should be a sign that your opinion is ill-informed and overly simplistic.

The solutions won't be easy and they'll take time, but the current situation is unacceptable.

Solitary confinement exists in Canada as well. Are you honestly saying that it's the prison system that is the reason these specific inmates are housed in solitary confinement? No, they are there because they are violent and dangerous offenders who've raped, killed, assaulted ordinary civilians in the outside world. Then they are sentenced to prison. I don't have a simplistic view of anything. I've worked long enough with a lot of these people to realize that rehabilitation is a farce for a large amount of them, because they won't ever be rehabilitated. They are extremely violent individuals, who would probably knife me in the back if I turned around.

 

[killamajig]

These kind of inmates see weakness in people and take advantage of them. That's what they do.

And they were doing it before solitary confinement.

 

[Vilam]

Sounds like the prison I'd want to be sent to. My own TV, my own shower, my own toilet... No fear of rape, getting shanked, having to fight, joining a gang for protection, etc. I could deal with solitary just fine compared to the rest of that.

 

[killamajig]

If anybody here thinks the U.S. prison system is shit, go work in it. I'm not saying this to be flippant. They need good people in there working with inmates that do want to turn their life around.

 

[Brakke]

So what do you want them to have? You didn't answer the question.

Did you miss the part where people are being taken off medications and denied psychiatric care?

 

[Piggus]

Sounds like the prison I'd want to be sent to. My own TV, my own shower, my own toilet... No fear of rape, getting shanked, having to fight, joining a gang for protection, etc. I could deal with solitary just fine compared to the rest of that.

Eh, I feel like that's easy enough to say having not actually experienced it. Yeah, it would be fine if you were only spending a few weeks or months in prison, but I'd rather be shanked and killed than spend 23 hours per day in a small, shitty room with no human contact for the rest of my life. That's the key here... A lot of these people are spending the next 60+ years in the same bleak room until they're dead. That's a fate worse than death.

People can hate on our prison system all they want, and yes, it has a lot of problems and we should look to other countries for improving it. But at the same time, most of the people in a place like the ADX are there for a reason, and quite frankly some of them don't deserve to be anywhere else. They're experiencing the consequences of what happens when you murder countless people or plot to blow up a building or airplanes in the name of your shitty, skewed religious beliefs. They're experiencing REAL consequences for their actions. Our society is not obligated to send them to a resort where their biggest problem is not having enough good PS2 games to play.

The major question though is where do you draw that line? At what point does someone truly deserve to be at a place like ADX? Almost everyone in the ISIS threads consider ISIS to be the cockroaches that they are and deserve a painful death. I have to wonder if some of those same people are against a place like ADX. Because in ADX there are people who are arguably worse than just about any ISIS member.

Did you miss the part where people are being taken off medications and denied psychiatric care?

No, I didn't miss that part. And I agree that they should still get their meds and some kind of psychiatric care in a way of determining whether they can be moved back into place where they have human interaction. But again, where do you draw the line?

At a certain point, like with ISIS members, I really don't care if someone who blew up 160 people has a horrible existence.

 

[ConradCervantes]

Sounds like the perfect prison to me. hopefully we build more like it.

 

[TheJLC]

I can see why some of these guys are in solitary. Killing 3 other prisoners and a guard on separate occasion while in prison isn't cool. Or being the leader of a racist organization that has killed other prisoners directly or indirectly. Or a terrorist that has killed hundreds with no remorse.

 

[vwnut13]

Sounds like the perfect prison to me. hopefully we build more like it.

However, I didn't see any garbage disposals for getting rid of the keys.

 

[Macam]

Norway also isn't housing members of al Qaeda , aryan brotherhood members, Mexican cartel bosses and serial killers.

Citation needed.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

I can see why some of these guys are in solitary. Killing 3 other prisoners and a guard on separate occasion while in prison isn't cool. Or being the leader of a racist organization that has killed other prisoners directly or indirectly. Or a terrorist that has killed hundreds with no remorse.

Indeed. Again, it's a matter of considering the safety of the people these psychos would be exposed to should they be allowed to mix with the general population. They've shown no regard for killing other inmates, corrections officers, etc....

 

[Jenov]

Norway also isn't housing members of al Qaeda , aryan brotherhood members, Mexican cartel bosses and serial killers.

This. I seriously doubt Norway lets people like Anders Breivik play volleyball outside with other inmates and COs.

Edit: In fact, his detention sounds A LOT like how the US isolates their own most dangerous:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-20270325
"Breivik is being held in almost complete isolation - 23 hours a day, he says - at Ila prison outside Oslo.
His cell includes three sections, one to sleep, one for study and a third for exercise - each measuring 8 sq m (86 sq ft)."

23 hours a day isolation, Norway?
HOW BARBARIC !

 

[tokkun]

This. I seriously doubt Norway lets people like Anders Breivik play volleyball outside with other inmates and COs.

Edit: In fact, his detention sounds A LOT like how the US isolates their own most dangerous:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-20270325
"Breivik is being held in almost complete isolation - 23 hours a day, he says - at Ila prison outside Oslo.
His cell includes three sections, one to sleep, one for study and a third for exercise - each measuring 8 sq m (86 sq ft)."

23 hours a day isolation, Norway?
HOW BARBARIC !

This is the guy who threatened a hunger strike because his coffee wasn't hot enough and he had a PS2 instead of a PS3 in his cell. Sounds like his treatment is pretty similar to the guys swallowing razors and eating their own fingers in ADX, am I right?

I certainly can't discern a difference from those pictures.

 

[Jenov]

This is the guy who threatened a hunger strike because his coffee wasn't hot enough and he had a PS2 instead of a PS3 in his cell. Sounds like his treatment is pretty similar to the guys swallowing razors and eating their own fingers in ADX, am I right?

I certainly can't discern a difference from those pictures.

Hang a curtain up, put some bedding and take off the awful gray photo filter and it would look pretty similar actually. I mean, are we arguing about wood furniture vs concrete/metal and some decorations as a difference of well treatment? A video game system is the breaking point?

Don't forget these beautiful shots:

Not exactly luxury living for either. And it doesn't discount that he's still kept in isolation for 23 out of 24 hours a day....which is perfectly in line with Norway's standard apparently.

 

[IISANDERII]

Norway also isn't housing members of al Qaeda , aryan brotherhood members, Mexican cartel bosses and serial killers.

And that isn't by accident. It's by design.

 

[killamajig]

This is the guy who threatened a hunger strike because his coffee wasn't hot enough and he had a PS2 instead of a PS3 in his cell. Sounds like his treatment is pretty similar to the guys swallowing razors and eating their own fingers in ADX, am I right?

I certainly can't discern a difference from those pictures.

There are about a thousand things in that first cell that medium security inmates would kill each other with.

BTW, inmates kill each other far more that staff. Gang feuds, racism, sexual predators its all there. Unless you can change American inmates sociology, that cell would be a death trap.

 

[Amir0x]

What world do you live in, where you think mass murderers, cannibals, serial killers, bombers, terrorists, should be allowed any contact with the outside world? They're lucky they're not six feet under the ground. Why should any guards, any other inmates risk living with these psychopaths? That's what they are. The worst of the worst are house in ADX and Supermax prisons.

I swear some of you really have no clue what kind of people are out there. Some guys are sociopaths and psychopaths. There is no reason for them. They won't be rehabilitated, they won't ever 'be good'. The solitary order is often to protect them from other inmates as well. There are no other sane alternatives aside from the death penalty. Don't want to experience solitary confinement? Then don't commit the types of crimes these people have.

I've studied this issue for many years. Our system does not work, and in facts breeds far worse long reaching problems for society than the alternative systems we can see in countries like Norway.

Your emotional reaction to treating criminals like actual living human beings is just that. It's not based on any statistics that show that it works or not, it's not based on any reality we have to really deal with. It's people who just want revenge, and want to seek out the most brutal way to accomplish that.

My comment also did not have anything to do with them being allowed outside. I said SOLITARY CONFINEMENT needs to be cruel and unusual punishment, because it factually is. It literally has liquified the minds of people in there long enough. If you think that's not cruel and unusual, I don't know what you would classify as cruel and unusual. Or maybe you think showing any compassion is somehow abominable when dealing with criminals?

 

[killamajig]

I've studied this issue for many years. Our system does not work, and in facts breeds far worse long reaching problems for society than the alternative systems we can see in countries like Norway.

Your emotional reaction to treating criminals like actual living human beings is just that. It's not based on any statistics that show that it works or not, it's not based on any reality we have to really deal with. It's people who just want revenge, and want to seek out the most brutal way to accomplish that.

My comment also did not have anything to do with them being allowed outside. I said SOLITARY CONFINEMENT needs to be cruel and unusual punishment, because it factually is. It literally has liquified the minds of people in there long enough. If you think that's not cruel and unusual, I don't know what you would classify as cruel and unusual. Or maybe you think showing any compassion is somehow abominable when dealing with criminals?

How long before the mind literally liquefies?

FYI, we are talking about the minority of prisoners here.

And would you be shocked to find out there are people that would enjoy killing you and me? There are. I've seen them. Not studied or read about. I've talked to them, fed them, gave them their meds and spent 50 hours a week with them.

There are some humans beyond redemption. Those are the ones I'm talking about. They are a small minority but they exist. They would kill you or I because they want to.

 

[Amir0x]

How long before the mind literally liquefies?

FYI, we are talking about the minority of prisoners here.

And would you be shocked to find out there are people that would enjoy killing you and me? There are. I've seen them. Not studied or read about. I've talked to them, fed them, gave them their meds and spent 50 hours a week with them.

There are some humans beyond redemption. Those are the ones I'm talking about. They are a small minority but they exist. They would kill you or I because they want to.

It doesn't matter if we were talking about only one single prisoner in the entire country. Cruel and unusual punishment is cruel and unusual punishment. Social interaction is one of the cornerstones of the human experience, and without it people completely lose their mind. How long it is til it happens varies, but it has happened in as little as a few weeks in solitary confinement. And while sometimes people can recover from the experience, the longer it goes on the more impossible that becomes... until it becomes a full blown mental health issue, which costs the state even more money.

Everyone who has experienced solitary confinement for long periods of times says it's basically torture. Prisoners of war who were physically tortured for endless hours said that the isolation was even worse.

This isn't about how much redemption you think certain people are capable of. This is about treating everyone, no matter how much we despise their actions, with a basic bit of human decency. Because we're better than them.

And the problem becomes that people who vehemently support these habits do not do so based on any scientific merit. There is no scientific merit to it. All studies have shown it does not work and makes the situation worse if they ever do get out. Countries which have a rehabilitative prison system framework that is ACTUALLY rehabilitative show massive benefits not just to the prison population but to society as a whole. There is far less violence in the prison itself, meaning prison guards and fellow prisoners are in less danger. Recidivism rates drop down dramatically, so there's less people leaving prison and recommitting crimes ... which I'm sure you'll agree, is better for society. Why should society suffer because some people are so lustful for revenge that they ignore all data that shows what works and what doesn't?

The US prison system does not work. That's indisputable. It doesn't matter how awful people are out in the world. You think it surprises me that there are sociopaths that enjoy killing? The mind is a complicated thing, people are born will all sorts of emotional and mental impairments that lead them to like all sorts of abnormal things, from underage kids to murder. And yet no matter how horrible these people get, it doesn't change the fact that a rehabilitative prison system works, and the US prison system does not. No amount of saying how horrible they are is going to change that fact.

Now, unless you believe the criminals in countries with rehabilitative prison systems are somehow fundamentally different human creatures, then there is zero reason it would not work here too.

 

[killamajig]

It doesn't matter if we were talking about only one single prisoner in the entire country. Cruel and unusual punishment is cruel and unusual punishment. Social interaction is one of the cornerstones of the human experience, and without it people completely lose their mind. How long it is til it happens varies, but it has happened in as little as a few weeks in solitary confinement. And while sometimes people can recover from the experience, the longer it goes on the more impossible that becomes... until it becomes a full blown mental health issue, which costs the state even more money.

Everyone who has experienced solitary confinement for long periods of times says it's basically torture. Prisoners of war who were physically tortured for endless hours said that the isolation was even worse.

This isn't about how much redemption you think certain people are capable of. This is about treating everyone, no matter how much we despise their actions, with a basic bit of human decency. Because we're better than them.

And the problem becomes that people who vehemently support these habits do not do so based on any scientific merit. There is no scientific merit to it. All studies have shown it does not work and makes the situation worse if they ever do get out. Countries which have a rehabilitative prison system framework that is ACTUALLY rehabilitative show massive benefits not just to the prison population but to society as a whole. There is far less violence in the prison itself, meaning prison guards and fellow prisoners are in less danger. Recidivism rates drop down dramatically, so there's less people leaving prison and recommitting crimes ... which I'm sure you'll agree, is better for society. Why should society suffer because some people are so lustful for revenge that they ignore all data that shows what works and what doesn't?

The US prison system does not work. That's indisputable. It doesn't matter how awful people are out in the world. You think it surprises me that there are sociopaths that enjoy killing? The mind is a complicated thing, people are born will all sorts of emotional and mental impairments that lead them to like all sorts of abnormal things, from underage kids to murder. And yet no matter how horrible these people get, it doesn't change the fact that a rehabilitative prison system works, and the US prison system does not. No amount of saying how horrible they are is going to change that fact.

Now, unless you believe the criminals in countries with rehabilitative prison systems are somehow fundamentally different human creatures, then there is zero reason it would not work here too.

I'm not talking about 99% of inmates. This is about the worst of the worst.

I love Scandinavian style systems. I've taken courses on penal systems in other countries. If I could wave a magic wand I would change America's in a second.

If we want to talk about the system in general then i'm agreeing. Its not good. But we are not. This isn't a discussion the whole of the American justice system.

These are the guys we are talking about....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADX_Florence#Notable_current_inmates


There is a reason they are kept segregated. What do you do about those people?

 

[Zaptruder]

I'm not talking about 99% of inmates. This is about the worst of the worst.

I love Scandinavian style systems. I've taken courses on penal systems in other countries. If I could wave a magic wand I would change America's in a second.

If we want to talk about the system in general then i'm agreeing. Its not good. But we are not. This isn't a discussion the whole of the American justice system.

These are the guys we are talking about....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADX_Florence#Notable_current_inmates


There is a reason they are kept segregated. What do you do about those people?

The best practice rule of thumb here is... treat them as well as you can treat them without creating additional risks and harms.

Yes, some people need to be segregated from society. But even in doing so, we can retain the essence of humanity that we value and desire to protect.

The kind of societal attitudes we have regarding our worst has knock-on attitudes of how we regard all people. I say all people... because nearly all people cause some form of offense either rightly or wrongly to others. If we automatically defaulted to the worst case treatment for everyone that has wronged anyone, society wouldn't be civilized - it'd simply be hell.

 

[YoungHav]

I could do 23hrs solitary with my PS3 and backlog easily.

Potentially dumb question but do COs carry guns or just batons?

 

[bro1]

The best practice rule of thumb here is... treat them as well as you can treat them without creating additional risks and harms.

Yes, some people need to be segregated from society. But even in doing so, we can retain the essence of humanity that we value and desire to protect.

The kind of societal attitudes we have regarding our worst has knock-on attitudes of how we regard all people. I say all people... because nearly all people cause some form of offense either rightly or wrongly to others. If we automatically defaulted to the worst case treatment for everyone that has wronged anyone, society wouldn't be civilized - it'd simply be hell.

These inmates are murders and rapists. They have ruined and damaged countless lives. As a society, we need to punish these people as much as we can without being inhumane. Those jails are better than many deserve.

 

[killamajig]

I could do 23hrs solitary with my PS3 and backlog easily.

Potentially dumb question but do COs carry guns or just batons?

Neither. Cuffs, radio and pepper spray. Basically you don't want to carry anything that could be taken that's lethal.

Guns are only allowed "outside" the prison or in towers. The only time you are armed with inmates are outside work crews or transport.

Edit: As a general rule. I'm sure different prisons have say catwalks and such. Areas where inmates are never allowed.

 

[tokkun]

I'm not talking about 99% of inmates. This is about the worst of the worst.

I love Scandinavian style systems. I've taken courses on penal systems in other countries. If I could wave a magic wand I would change America's in a second.

If we want to talk about the system in general then i'm agreeing. Its not good. But we are not. This isn't a discussion the whole of the American justice system.

These are the guys we are talking about....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADX_Florence#Notable_current_inmates


There is a reason they are kept segregated. What do you do about those people?

If people are being driven insane by isolation but are unsafe in direct contact with others, give them more indirect contact. This is the 21st century; it's not rocket science for people to be able to communicate over distance.

These inmates are murders and rapists. They have ruined and damaged countless lives. As a society, we need to punish these people as much as we can without being inhumane. Those jails are better than many deserve.

What do you consider to be inhumane? In ADX you have guys swallowing razors, eating their own shit, self-canibalism, removing their own testicles.

At Polunsky, another solitary unit, you have a guy setting himself on fire and another scooping out his own eye and eating it.
http://www.motherjones.com/politics...s-america-allan-polunsky-unit-texas-death-row

If that is the result of what you consider to be humane treatment, I wonder if the term has any meaning.

 

[killamajig]

If people are being driven insane by isolation but are unsafe in direct contact with others, give them more indirect contact. This is the 21st century; it's not rocket science for people to be able to communicate over distance.



What do you consider to be inhumane? In ADX you have guys swallowing razors, eating their own shit, self-canibalism, removing their own testicles.

At Polunsky, another solitary unit, you have a guy setting himself on fire and another scooping out his own eye and eating it.
http://www.motherjones.com/politics...s-america-allan-polunsky-unit-texas-death-row

If that is the result of what you consider to be humane treatment, I wonder if the term has any meaning.

Inmates spend their days in 12-by-7-foot cells with thick concrete walls and double sets of sliding metal doors (with solid exteriors, so prisoners can’t see one another). A single window, about three feet high but only four inches wide, offers a notched glimpse of sky and little else. Each cell has a sink-toilet combo and an automated shower, and prisoners sleep on concrete slabs topped with thin mattresses. Most cells also have televisions (with built-in radios), and inmates have access to books and periodicals, as well as certain arts-and-craft materials.

And yeah, there are mentally ill people in there. But again where do you want them? They are not in a mental health facility because they cant handle violent patients. They don't want them there.

This is from the article

Jones said the staff psychiatrist stopped his prescription for Seroquel, a drug taken for bipolar disorder, telling him, “We don’t give out feel-good drugs here.”

I don't believe this. If anything they are more than happy to give out seroquel. It (Quetiapine) is used a lot in prison and is used to treat schizophrenia too. The fact that it also sedates the person I would think the staff would be just fine with that.

 

[tokkun]

Televisions, radios, books, and arts & crafts supplies are not means of personal contact or socialization.

And yeah, there are mentally ill people in there. But again where do you want them? They are not in a mental health facility because they cant handle violent patients. They don't want them there.

Holding mentally ill people in that facility is against the law. It's a human rights violation. That's why the government is forced to lie and say they are sane. If there is no mental health facility that can handle them, then one needs to be built. You don't just shrug your shoulders while mentally ill people are mutilating themselves.

The ban on cruel & unusual punishment is in our Bill of Rights. If people don't really believe in that, and think that people who have committed heinous crimes should be tortured, I wish they would have the guts to admit it.

 

[Rest]

That first image reminds me of playing Ace Combat 4.
No comment on the story though.

 

[Rest]

Hang a curtain up, put some bedding and take off the awful gray photo filter and it would look pretty similar actually. I mean, are we arguing about wood furniture vs concrete/metal and some decorations as a difference of well treatment? A video game system is the breaking point?

Don't forget these beautiful shots:

Not exactly luxury living for either. And it doesn't discount that he's still kept in isolation for 23 out of 24 hours a day....which is perfectly in line with Norway's standard apparently.

Actually, the styling of furniture can make a difference. There's at least one study that found that monotone, unbeautified surroundings make people angrier, while nicer looking environments make people happier.

 

[Zaptruder]

These inmates are murders and rapists. They have ruined and damaged countless lives. As a society, we need to punish these people as much as we can without being inhumane. Those jails are better than many deserve.

How we treat these people isn't about them. It's about how we view ourselves as human beings... and by extension, how we hope for humanity as a whole to view and treat itself.

Also how do you define inhumane? Going by that soft metric, those jails seem to me to be worse than most of them deserve, even if they are murderers and rapists.

 

[malfcn]

I think part of the problem is the alternatives.

Imagine a flock of murderers sleeping in plush beds with slippers and other fancy amenities.
They get to gather with each other at high noon for tea time and current events. The warden can offer them crumpets and a refill.

They are separated because they are already deemed as mentally ill and socially abnormal. If they gather together they may harm each other or plan to hurt someone else. Too many comforts would be appalling, murder someone and get a holiday suite?

The hardships are to be their punishment and appease those effected by their egregious actions. I'm not sure what a balance would be..clear cubes?

 

[jerry1594]

Hang a curtain up, put some bedding and take off the awful gray photo filter and it would look pretty similar actually. I mean, are we arguing about wood furniture vs concrete/metal and some decorations as a difference of well treatment? A video game system is the breaking point?

Don't forget these beautiful shots:

Not exactly luxury living for either. And it doesn't discount that he's still kept in isolation for 23 out of 24 hours a day....which is perfectly in line with Norway's standard apparently.

You can't compare going on a hunger strike over a PS2 to the shit that happens at ADX Florence.

I think part of the problem is the alternatives.

Imagine a flock of murderers sleeping in plush beds with slippers and other fancy amenities.
They get to gather with each other at high noon for tea time and current events. The warden can offer them crumpets and a refill.

They are separated because they are already deemed as mentally ill and socially abnormal. If they gather together they may harm each other or plan to hurt someone else. Too many comforts would be appalling, murder someone and get a holiday suite?

The hardships are to be their punishment and appease those effected by their egregious actions. I'm not sure what a balance would be..clear cubes?

This is ridiculous. No one's suggesting that. There's a pretty huge void between not having people eat their own body parts and gathering them up for tea time.

 

[malfcn]

I used an extreme example.
Because even a little comfort could be viewed as luxury by some.

Then I went on to briefly explain why they are separated. They may harm each other or themselves. It's a complex situation.

 

[Zaptruder]

I think part of the problem is the alternatives.

Imagine a flock of murderers sleeping in plush beds with slippers and other fancy amenities.
They get to gather with each other at high noon for tea time and current events. The warden can offer them crumpets and a refill.

They are separated because they are already deemed as mentally ill and socially abnormal. If they gather together they may harm each other or plan to hurt someone else. Too many comforts would be appalling, murder someone and get a holiday suite?

The hardships are to be their punishment and appease those effected by their egregious actions. I'm not sure what a balance would be..clear cubes?

Treat them as well as we can, without creating further harm.

If we incentivize harm because we've made prisons too nice that people want to get into them, we've obviously done something wrong.

But perhaps what's wrong in the broader perspective is that we treat people outside of prison like shit way too often as well.

 

[Makai]

Norway also isn't housing members of al Qaeda , aryan brotherhood members, Mexican cartel bosses and serial killers.

They have that guy who killed like 80 kids in an afternoon.

 

[Tinfoilhatsron]

I thought that this was about a prisoner, while admittedly participating in fights with other prisoners three times before, who didn't belong with the "worst of the worst" and then went insane?