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[LectureMaster]

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/12/26/arts/video-games-graphics-budgets.html#

Here is one in case folks don't want to login to NY Times to read.

Insiders say cutting-edge graphics are too costly for AAA games

The ongoing industry crisis may finally teach that more graphics do not equal more sales.

www.tomshardware.com

---

Speaking to The New York Times, several game developers and some industry figures spoke out about how the gaming industry's AAA studios couldn't reasonably handle the stress of creating cutting-edge graphics— particularly in light of major waves of layoffs throughout the past two years, and several high-fidelity AAA games underperforming in the market. Even live service games, which are known to be cash cows when successful, are noted to be a mature market and thus a dangerous investment, particularly when end users tend to despise particularly greedy live service business models.

As former Square Enix executive Jacob Navok noted to The New York Times, "It's very clear that high-fidelity visuals are only moving the needle for a vocal class of gamers in their 40s and 50s. But what does my 7-year old son play? Minecraft. Roblox. Fortnite."

While this may be a somewhat reductive take, there's certainly truth to it when one considers just how much the most popular titles veer toward being playable on low-to-mid-range hardware rather than high-end PCs. For example, the broader genre of single-player action games has mostly diminished to Soulslikes and gacha games a la Genshin Impact. While Soulslikes usually look good, they aren't typically operating with an entire AAA budget and are often hard-capped to 60 FPS. Meanwhile, most gacha games are playable on mobile phones, with standard ports playable on low-end PCs or last-gen consoles.

For most players, it seems that even if you have high-end hardware, pushing it to its absolute limits isn't necessarily the priority. Relatively unambitious live service games aren't either, considering the brutal failures of Sony's Concord and Warner Bros. Discovery's Suicide Squad: Kill The Justice League, cited by the New York Times.

Kill The Justice League is a notable example. It was billed as a sequel to the immensely popular Batman Arkham series of single-player hand-to-hand action games, but it is now rebilled as a live-service third-person shooter. Studios are not doing a particularly good job listening to their audiences when these mistakes cost hundreds of millions of dollars.

One independent developer quoted by The New York Times had particularly cutting comments about the industry's current status, especially regarding greater generative AI adoption. Rami Ismail, co-founder of development studio Vlambeer, known for titles including Nuclear Throne and Luftrausers, remarked, "The idea that there will be content from AI before we figure out how it works and where it will source data from is really hard."

Rami continues, "How can we as an industry make shorter games with worse graphics made with people who are paid well to work less? If we can, there might be short-term hope. Otherwise, I think the slow strangulation of the games industry is ongoing."

---

 

[LectureMaster]

Can't believe agreeing with NY Times, but yes, art style and gameplay takes high priority for me.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Been saying this for years.

High fidelity visuals are vapid cotton candy design and cripple the games they’re attached to.

 

[Danjin44]

art style and gameplay takes high priority for me.

That’s always the case for me.

 

[kikkis]

Can't believe agreeing with NY Times, but yes, art style and gameplay takes high priority for me.

What if I told Callisto protocol has as much "stunning art style" as some anime game.

With regards to article, I doubt Elden ring graphics cost significantly less than Callisto protocol for instance.

 

[LectureMaster]

As former Square Enix executive Jacob Navok noted to The New York Times, "It's very clear that high-fidelity visuals are only moving the needle for a vocal class of gamers in their 40s and 50s.

Topher

 

[SlimySnake]

Yes 7 year olds like roblox and fortnite. they also like pop tarts, worms and eating hair.

Fuck them kids. average age of gamer is well over 40 by now. focus on the people who give a shit about this stuff.

 

[Gp1]

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/12/26/arts/video-games-graphics-budgets.html#

Here is one in case folks don't want to login to NY Times to read.

Insiders say cutting-edge graphics are too costly for AAA games

The ongoing industry crisis may finally teach that more graphics do not equal more sales.

www.tomshardware.com

---

Speaking to The New York Times, several game developers and some industry figures spoke out about how the gaming industry's AAA studios couldn't reasonably handle the stress of creating cutting-edge graphics— particularly in light of major waves of layoffs throughout the past two years, and several high-fidelity AAA games underperforming in the market. Even live service games, which are known to be cash cows when successful, are noted to be a mature market and thus a dangerous investment, particularly when end users tend to despise particularly greedy live service business models.

As former Square Enix executive Jacob Navok noted to The New York Times, "It's very clear that high-fidelity visuals are only moving the needle for a vocal class of gamers in their 40s and 50s. But what does my 7-year old son play? Minecraft. Roblox. Fortnite."

While this may be a somewhat reductive take, there's certainly truth to it when one considers just how much the most popular titles veer toward being playable on low-to-mid-range hardware rather than high-end PCs. For example, the broader genre of single-player action games has mostly diminished to Soulslikes and gacha games a la Genshin Impact. While Soulslikes usually look good, they aren't typically operating with an entire AAA budget and are often hard-capped to 60 FPS. Meanwhile, most gacha games are playable on mobile phones, with standard ports playable on low-end PCs or last-gen consoles.

For most players, it seems that even if you have high-end hardware, pushing it to its absolute limits isn't necessarily the priority. Relatively unambitious live service games aren't either, considering the brutal failures of Sony's Concord and Warner Bros. Discovery's Suicide Squad: Kill The Justice League, cited by the New York Times.

Kill The Justice League is a notable example. It was billed as a sequel to the immensely popular Batman Arkham series of single-player hand-to-hand action games, but it is now rebilled as a live-service third-person shooter. Studios are not doing a particularly good job listening to their audiences when these mistakes cost hundreds of millions of dollars.

One independent developer quoted by The New York Times had particularly cutting comments about the industry's current status, especially regarding greater generative AI adoption. Rami Ismail, co-founder of development studio Vlambeer, known for titles including Nuclear Throne and Luftrausers, remarked, "The idea that there will be content from AI before we figure out how it works and where it will source data from is really hard."

Rami continues, "How can we as an industry make shorter games with worse graphics made with people who are paid well to work less? If we can, there might be short-term hope. Otherwise, I think the slow strangulation of the games industry is ongoing."

---

The last sentece nails it. "How can we as an industry make shorter games with worse graphics made with people who are paid well to work less? If we can, there might be short-term hope. Otherwise, I think the slow strangulation of the games industry is ongoing."
Curiously how no one talks about Capcom, Sega, Lariant, Stalker, Black Myth: Wukong, CDPR etc. GSC developed Stalker 2 during a fucking war.

The rest sounds like the typical excuses of the big studios trying shove concepts out of their asses into the market, calling their audience names when they fairly criticizing their products, and making bad AAA games

 

[chakadave]

The last sentece nails it. "How can we as an industry make shorter games with worse graphics made with people who are paid well to work less? If we can, there might be short-term hope. Otherwise, I think the slow strangulation of the games industry is ongoing."
Curiously how no one talks about Capcom, Sega, Lariant, Stalker, Black Myth: Wukong, CDPR etc. GSC developed Stalker 2 during a fucking war.

The rest sounds like the typical excuses of the big studios trying shove concepts out of their asses into the market, calling their audience names when they fairly criticizing their products, and making bad AAA games

The big studios lost all their good talent. Engineers and programmers have left. The rest barely know how to run UE.

So that sent all the top talent to work at studios with less money. And resources to spend time making cutting edge visuals.

This is why we have a rift in gaming. These games may look good in a surface level but scratch it and there is nothing.

There was a peak time in graphics and it has been pointed out in a bunch of threads here. Especially the one talking about real time lighting. Or maybe the crazy physics in something like Crysis 2.

Go back 10 years and you have some real skills being shown off. But those were done by evil white men so they had to be let go.

 

[ChoosableOne]

Soon, we'll look like old people playing bingo in movies. This hobby might die with us.

 

[lh032]

yea, but its not as easy as it sounds.

 

[bundylove]

Topher

I Feel violated

 

[LectureMaster]

Rami continues, "How can we as an industry make shorter games with worse graphics made with people who are paid well to work less?

There is only one way, right?

 

[Darkmakaimura]

Hey one of the best looking games I've ever seen in my entire life is Hellblade II.

It's also one of the most boring games ever made.

 

[Darkmakaimura]

There is only one way, right?

Okay, I have to visit this Reddit.

 

[Cyberpunkd]

It’s incredible how mainstream media thinks the whole gaming is AAA while completely ignoring smaller games.

 

[Moses85]

As former Square Enix executive Jacob Navok noted to The New York Times, "It's very clear that high-fidelity visuals are only moving the needle for a vocal class of gamers in their 40s and 50s. But what does my 7-year old son play? Minecraft. Roblox. Fortnite."

---

Sure, thats the reason why Sony and Microsoft are selling more consoles PS5 and Series X than PS4 and Xbox One (ok, Microsoft less than Sony)

 

[JimmyRustler]

Shouldn‘t this issue get demanding on the devs now with the advent of AI?

Anyway, studios should scale back and graphics and ambition so that 1-2 million units sold suffice to keep them afloat. These huge games aiming for 10 million+ sales are ridiculous.

 

[realcool]

But what does my 7-year old son play?

Whatever you let him play, dipshit.

 

[Dacvak]

I love cutting-edge visuals. Or rather, I love the technology of cutting-edge visuals when paired with good art design.

I could give a shit about photorealism in games, though. In fact, the closer to real life visuals we get, the more it sucks me out of the experience due to random graphical errors, and uncanny valley animations and models.

 

[ProtoByte]

Rami continues, "How can we as an industry make shorter games with worse graphics made with people who are paid well to work less? If we can, there might be short-term hope. Otherwise, I think the slow strangulation of the games industry is ongoing."

Fuuuuck that. I ain't spending my money on that, and make no apologies for it. Good luck with this btw; the reality is that even the people who yap this shit don't put their money where their mouths are.

 

[RCX]

Yes, games have looked more than good enough for years now. And they're almost universally too long.

Stop focusing on pushing shiny new-ness and put all the attention on performance. We're still flirting with 30fps games and it's nearly 2025.

Yet part of me wants the graphics arms race to continue as it will destroy more shitbox, woke "AAA" devs and publishers along the way.

 

[Majima Everywhere System]

Sure, thats the reason why Sony and Microsoft are selling more consoles PS5 and Series X than PS4 and Xbox One (ok, Microsoft less than Sony)

Yeah, however the kids got to caring about PS5 and sick PCs, we are here. The industry needs to go back to temporally stable images depicting stuff that looks out of place at work or school, or the customers will remain elusive.

 

[MagiusNecros]

art style and gameplay takes high priority for me.

The sooner these companies and devs in general realize this the better off games will be.

New tech or graphics are just tools. And if you don't know how to use them they don't do anything for you.

 

[Plague Doctor]

There is only one way, right?

We need more government funded games from tax payers.

It worked great. Did you see Dustborn?

That shit was GOAT. Everyone loved it. Sold gang busters.

We need more games where the devs get paid for whatever their blessed, beautiful visions are by the state and we should front the bill.

 

[Mayar]

Everything is strange for me, it doesn't move as it should, or maybe I'm broken. I'm already 40+ and to be honest, the more I look at the graphics in games, the less it interests me, I upgraded my PC and as a result, the only games I have on it are Factorio, Satisfactory and Civilization 6, I play most games on consoles, although I have the opportunity to play on a PC, but I like to play in the room on the couch in front of a large screen + quite often my wife keeps me company. And I started playing mostly either old games or remakes of these old games, such as Dragon Quest 3. I have become completely cool to graphics - if there is good graphics, that's good, if there is no good graphics but it's interesting to play, that's also good.

 

[Generic]

Yes 7 year olds like roblox and fortnite. they also like pop tarts, worms and eating hair.

Fuck them kids. average age of gamer is well over 40 by now. focus on the people who give a shit about this stuff.

Fortnite has higher skill ceiling than all AAA cutting-edgy single player games.

 

[Darkmakaimura]

There is only one way, right?

Okay, I have to visit this Reddit.

So I actually decided to visit the forum and posted a question. I wasn't trolling and I remained very civil and respectful.

I got a lot of replies very quickly. Seems like it's a very busy subreddit but most people have answered to play Disco Elysium and Fallout New Vegas.

Quite the interesting responses.

Now I really need to find out what Disco Elysium is all about because I keep hearing about this game even here.

 

[Disco Dave]

Well, it looks like “good enough for Gamepass” is the way forward.

 

[JimmyRustler]

Everything is strange for me, it doesn't move as it should, or maybe I'm broken. I'm already 40+ and to be honest, the more I look at the graphics in games, the less it interests me, I upgraded my PC and as a result, the only games I have on it are Factorio, Satisfactory and Civilization 6, I play most games on consoles, although I have the opportunity to play on a PC, but I like to play in the room on the couch in front of a large screen + quite often my wife keeps me company. And I started playing mostly either old games or remakes of these old games, such as Dragon Quest 3. I have become completely cool to graphics - if there is good graphics, that's good, if there is no good graphics but it's interesting to play, that's also good.

We all grew up in a time where improvements in graphics went hand in hand with improvements with the game itself. Today that is clearly not the case any more, as the better the visuals get the worse and dumbed down the gameplay is. So sentiments like this are no surprise. I have them as well. The last 3 or 4 games I played are all Remasters. Currently on The Thing and it’s amazing.

 

[Sintoid]

No need for new graphic cards on Neogaf? That's blasphemy!

 

[RJMacready73]

My 13y.o. son and his mates are all fanatical gamers but not one plays bleeding edge games, I built my wee lad his first gaming PC built around a lowly 12gb 3060 and he's flat out on Fallout3 on it and then wants to play the original Call of Duty, then Half Life, his mates are the same with another using his gaming PC to play Roblox of all things, they've no interest whatsoever whereas me I'm getting serious RTGI FOMO and thinking of building a 4080 rig to go with my PS5 lol so there's some truth to the article

 

[Three]

Kids grow up with mobile games and couldn't give a shit about graphics. They didn't grow up in the early days of gaming where those advancements and hard work were appreciated more. Now it's about watching their favourite youtuber playing some jank and wanting in on it.

 

[ikbalCO]

great article and great presentation.

off topic, you guys do not subscribe to n.y.t? its like 10 bucks a year and comes with athletic, cooking and games. I live in Turkey and have been a subscriber for like 6 years or something like that . I'd really urge anyone to sub since I find it to be well worth the money.

 

[Bernardougf]

Yes.. this is part of the "games take too long and are expensive" problem they thenselfs created...

 

[winjer]

WTF, these journalists think the reason why Suicide Squad and Concord failed were the graphics. LOL.

 

[diffusionx]

They wont say the real problem which is that the game industry has a competency crisis. You see this in the vast gulf in terms of performance and quality of UEslop vs games that use custom or bespoke engines. You see this when you look at the credits of some middling game and see it had a staff of 300 people and 3000 consultants. the games take 5 years to make which means no lessons and no iteration can be made in a generation.

The most illustrative example is Turn 10’s shift from making 7 games in 14 year, they put out a new Forza every other year, it was always a game with great graphics, they (usually) had tons of content, on 360 they were much better than Gran Turismo and did things like online play and interior cockpits first and better. But last year they released a game that is more accurately called Fartza, it took them six years; it sucked balls, it wasn’t any good, it didn’t even look that good, it had barely any content compared to the last one, and theg lied about reusing content. So how did this super competent team you could set your watch to become another modern dev? They probably spent $200 million on Fartza and it’s a piece of shit.

 

[Angry_Megalodon]

I see, the classic bullshit of "good graphics and physics = photorealism". Games like these don't seem to have much trouble. I wonder why.

 

[Hypereides]

No shit.

Kinda funny how this has already been widely discussed among enthusiasts for a few years now and people have voiced their worries/concerns about this direction. You can really tell some folks in the industry have become wholly detached from the gaming community. Pushing graphics is becoming a pointless expenditure. Especially, as player-environment interactivity declines in tandem with it and it becomes glaringly apparent in big releases.

They need to re-arrange their priorities and go back in time to research the things developers/games used to pioneer in for instance the early 7th gen. Dynamic climate of Far Cry 2, environmental in-game eco-systems, interactive/changable environments (destructability) and physics. In short, breathe "life" into the games instead or making them these sterile, narrow rollercoaster rides with little interaction and player agency. Put graphics fidelity on the backburner for a while and focus on the above.

All of that is a far better sell than "Look! Pretty GRAFIX!". Its become a stale selling point.

Cohesive, inventive, imaginative, meaningful and thoughtful art direction trumps graphics at every turn. Heck, it might even extend their longevity. Something like Megaman legends still looks remarkably fresh today. That's the kind of forward thinking modern developers need to adapt/embrace.

 

[Zug]

Art direction (be it visual or sounds) and gameplay have always been what define good timeless games. Realistic visuals is more than often just there to hide a lack of artistic creativity and talent, but thankfully we've reached a point where diminishing returns are too high to be affordable and people are not impressed anymore by the small incremental, yet expensively more costly, technical visual upgrades.
I'm afraid though that some studios might still want to push the realistic trend using AI, all using UE5, which might eventually give birth to a vapid, soul-less and look-alike generation of generic looking games.

 

[Punished Miku]

The sooner these companies and devs in general realize this the better off games will be.

New tech or graphics are just tools. And if you don't know how to use them they don't do anything for you.

Nintendo with base PS4 tech next year will remind everyone once again.

 

[Astray]

The funniest part is the big break-out hits of the year 2024, the ones that supposedly "should show devs the way" almost all had class-leading AAA graphics:

- Wukong.
- Space Marine 2.

Graphics are not the problem. The problem is we have reached the gaming TAM and now need to focus on controlling costs and delivering ROI, and that's not an easy task at all.

 

[Jinzo Prime]

They wont say the real problem which is that the game industry has a competency crisis. You see this in the vast gulf in terms of performance and quality of UEslop vs games that use custom or bespoke engines. You see this when you look at the credits of some middling game and see it had a staff of 300 people and 3000 consultants. the games take 5 years to make which means no lessons and no iteration can be made in a generation.

The most illustrative example is Turn 10’s shift from making 7 games in 14 year, they put out a new Forza every other year, it was always a game with great graphics, they (usually) had tons of content, on 360 they were much better than Gran Turismo and did things like online play and interior cockpits first and better. But last year they released a game that is more accurately called Fartza, it took them six years; it sucked balls, it wasn’t any good, it didn’t even look that good, it had barely any content compared to the last one, and theg lied about reusing content. So how did this super competent team you could set your watch to become another modern dev? They probably spent $200 million on Fartza and it’s a piece of shit.

All the programming talent as left the industry for better paying and more stable jobs.

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

Yes 7 year olds like roblox and fortnite. they also like pop tarts, worms and eating hair.

Fuck them kids. average age of gamer is well over 40 by now. focus on the people who give a shit about this stuff.

Do you really give a shit if your preferences are for games that are too risky and too expensive to develop?

 

[Rudius]

WTF, these journalists think the reason why Suicide Squad and Concord failed were the graphics. LOL.

Games can't afford to be this woke.

 

[Schmendrick]

.

The funniest part is the big break-out hits of the year 2024, the ones that supposedly "should show devs the way" almost all had class-leading AAA graphics:

- Wukong.
- Space Marine 2.

Space marine 2 has bog standard AA graphics using 99% last gen tech.... It is worlds apart from something like wukong which itself isn't comparable to western AAA when we're talking about budget (barely a third of Spider man)

 

[Angry_Megalodon]

.
Space marine 2 has bog standard AA graphics using 99% last gen tech.... It is worlds apart from something like wukong which itself isn't comparable to western AAA when we're talking about budget....

Which proves that great graphics can be achieved without crazy budgets, and that kills the whole argument.

Graphics aren't killing projects, bad management is.

 

[Astray]

.
Space marine 2 has bog standard AA graphics using 99% last gen tech.... It is worlds apart from something like wukong which itself isn't comparable to western AAA when we're talking about budget....

It's absolutely not a AA graphics game. One of the strongest points in its favor is high-quality graphics and audio.

The fact that you think so means that actual AA games indeed have no chance anymore.

 

[NeoIkaruGAF]

I see, the classic bullshit of "good graphics and physics = photorealism". Games like these don't seem to have much trouble. I wonder why.

But you can’t get a TV show with Pedro Pascal out of that.
We all know that “cutting edge graphics” means “as realistic as currently possible” for the majority of people.
And games that don’t push for that don’t get 10+ million sales either, apart from very specific examples that benefit from other factors anyway (like Fortnite’s zeitgeist, or Elden Ring riding on the back of 5 Soulsborne games and the word of mouth that came from them).

When talking great graphics, nobody thinks of Mario Kart 8.
Make a thread about how good MK8 looks on an OLED TV and watch GAF pissing its collective pants laughing. The thread actually exists, btw.

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

All the programming talent as left the industry for better paying and more stable jobs.

What made their job as game programmers unstable?
Certainly publishers have something to do with this, but I think so do consumers.