Support NeoGAF

[Infinite]

"Symbols of systems of oppression" was the barometer. The point is that, going by that logic, the choice of oppressive symbols to exclude is basically logically arbitrary. It is alright for that to be the case, but it's also not likely to be universally convincing, as it isn't for me.

I don't think of "whiteness" or "maleness" as an organization that all individual white people and all individual males represent simply by existing. You have a gross understanding of those concepts of you still think that parallel works. Like you're basically saying that white people and men are all symbols of white supremacy and patriarchy. . .thats dumb as fuck bro.

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

I don't think of "whiteness" or "maleness" as an organization that all individual white people and all individual males represent simply by existing. You have a gross understanding of those concepts of you still think that parallel works. Like you're basically saying that white people and men are all symbols of white supremacy and patriarchy. . .thats dumb as fuck bro.

I mean, that would hardly be out of line in the realm of critical theory, depending on how hardcore you want to go with it.

Moreover, the same could be stated of cops - they do not oppress merely by existing in their uniforms, but by their actions. Cops are not yet at a point where they are acceptably just in their dealings with the public, especially the marginalized public, but they HAVE improved or are at least aware they need to do so, albeit not uniformly in all precincts nor throughout any individual department, and being needlessly antagonistic to them in relatively low-stakes situations like this is much more likely to make them and their blind supporters dig in their heels and push back.

 

[Toxi]

-The Eric Garner death was not only in Staten Island (basically NJ), but was condemned from the top, including the mayor.

What horseshit. This is how the NYPD reacted to the mayor's condemnation.

When the NYPD is being more inclusive than the people who are supposed to be all about inclusiveness, that's kinda sad.

Three years ago, a NYPD officer strangled an unarmed black man to death on camera. Apparently this is the sort of thing society forgets, because people like you give more of a shit about not letting police wear their fucking uniform.

 

[Sai-kun]

It's a real slippery slope from cops to cishet white bros!!! Watch out y'all!

 

[Gotdatmoney]

I didn't say they were barred from pride. I said they were barred from marching in pride in the markers of their profession, whereas other aspects of vocational identity gays can conceivably adopt for themselves are NOT barred from the parade, even as discrimination can be found in a multitude of fields, albeit in less visible and certainly less overtly physical forms.

Yeah, because other professions don't give you state issued power that normal civilians are expected to be subservient to. You know this, you're just being disingenuous if you actually think being able to wear you McDonald's uniform is the same as being able to wear a badge and a gun.

I mean, that would hardly be out of line in the realm of critical theory, depending on how hardcore you want to go with it.

Moreover, the same could be stated of cops - they do not oppress merely by existing in their uniforms, but by their actions. Cops are not yet at a point where they are acceptably just in their dealings with the public, especially the marginalized public, but they HAVE improved or are at least aware they need to do so, albeit not uniformly in all precincts nor throughout any individual department, and being needlessly antagonistic to them in relatively low-stakes situations like this is much more likely to make them and their blind supporters dig in their heels and push back.

Are you a blind supporter? Because your heals seem mighty dug in.

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

It's a real slippery slope from cops to cishet white bros!!! Watch out y'all!

I'm not making a slippery slope argument, more a reductio ad absurdum argument.

Pride Toronto are a private organization and free to make whatever decisions they like, just as I am free to find the logic unconvincing and arbitrary delineated.

Edit: gotdatmoney, I can't really argue with the position that police should never be allowed to wear their uniforms when they're not working, as it's a differing value judgment that I don't particularly agree with, but it's not the argument being made in the case of the parade organizers, anyway. Cops can get fucked, in general, but telling, say, a gay parking enforcer they can't march in their uniforms when it has been acceptable in the past and is an acceptable practice in every other Pride parade I am aware of on the continent strikes me as achieving doodly squat in the way of tangible social justice.

 

[Lois_Lane]

Yeah, because other professions don't give you state issued power that normal civilians are expected to be subservient to. You know this, you're just being disingenuous if you actually think being able to wear you McDonald's uniform is the same as being able to wear a badge and a gun.

Like what profession besides cops allow you to kill people unfairly then let you either get rehired or leave with a pension?

 

[eggandI]

barbecues not activism lmao

 

[numble]

Not being allowed to wear your state sanctioned uniform does not mean you have been barred from pride. A police uniform is a symbol of power in society and affords members of that institution powers far beyond regular citizens. They shouldn't even be allowed to wear that shit anywhere outside of work period.

So back in 1997, when GOAL sued the NYPD and Rudy Giuliani from forbidding police officers to wear their uniforms to march in the NYC Pride parade, you supported the NYPD and Giuliani?

GOAL sued the NYPD in 1996:
http://www.upi.com/Archives/1996/04/02/NYC-gay-police-charge-discrimination/9613828421200/

Gay and lesbian police in New York City Tuesday filed a discrimination suit in federal court against the police department and Mayor Rudolph Giuliani. The Gay Officers Action League, representing about 1,000 members, charged in a 20-page complaint filed before Judge Lewis Kaplan in the Southern District of New York that they have been denied privileges routinely granted to other fraternal groups recognized by the police department.

The suit said police officials will not allow a police contingent to march in the Gay Pride Parade, and stonewalled an application to hold a related celebration of gay contributions to the police force at police headquarters.

https://www.theatlantic.com/nationa...ch-on-saint-patricks-day-if-gays-cant/283775/

They had to fight for permission to march in uniform in New York City’s gay pride parade, accompanied by the NYPD marching band. They marched for the first time in 1996, after the Gay Officers Action League sued the NYPD for discrimination in federal court. Their official recognition was an emotionally resonant moment for the gay community, as a New York Times report back then suggested:

Gay and lesbian police officers brushed the lint from their dress uniforms yesterday, polished their buttons and shined their shoes. Today, for the first time, members of the Gay Officers' Action League will be marching in full dress uniform, accompanied by the New York Police Department marching band and representing New York's Finest in the 27th annual Lesbian and Gay Pride March.

The equal treatment granted by the police department to gay and lesbian officers in 1996 (under threat of litigation) was definitively vindicated in federal court a few years later.

 

[Testicular Sound Express]

One has to wonder why the Toronto chapter of BLM even has so much say over the Toronto Pride Parade that is organized by Pride Toronto and has been so for over 25+ years since the early 1980's.

But it is what it is. The fact that LGBT Toronto police officers are asked by the NYC pride parade to participate in full uniform, vehicles, and yet Pride Toronto still won't allow them to is crazy.

the only people who wonder this are white I would assume

 

[Koodo]

Nothing fills my heart with more happiness than seeing the cavalcade of cis white folk – who refuse to listen or even acknowledge the suffering of their poc neighbours – throw a hissy fit over uniformed police being thrown out of a parade that they don't belong in. It's akin to a toddler throwing a tantrum when their irrational demand wasn't appeased.

God bless y'all for the good laughs while the Toronto police remain expelled.

 

[CazTGG]

barbecues not activism lmao

Don't boo, cook.

 

[Infinite]

I mean, that would hardly be out of line in the realm of critical theory, depending on how hardcore you want to go with it.

Moreover, the same could be stated of cops - they do not oppress merely by existing in their uniforms, but by their actions. Cops are not yet at a point where they are acceptably just in their dealings with the public, especially the marginalized public, but they HAVE improved or are at least aware they need to do so, albeit not uniformly in all precincts nor throughout any individual department, and being needlessly antagonistic to them in relatively low-stakes situations like this is much more likely to make them and their blind supporters dig in their heels and push back.

Cops are emissaries of a physical institution that enforces various forms of oppression against minorities that they justify as law and order. It's absolutely fair to say that individual cops represent the institution, its practice, and what it stands for once they put on the uniform. Maybe the PDs have improved at least to your liking but unfortunately BLM-TO doesn't agree. Instead of the police making an effort to convince them, they essentially take their ball home and have their union dogs sabotage the parade out of sheer pettiness.

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

Nothing fills my heart with more happiness than seeing the cavalcade of cis white folk – who refuse to listen or even acknowledge the suffering of their poc neighbours – throw a hissy fit over uniformed police being thrown out of a parade that they don't belong in. It's akin to a toddler throwing a tantrum when their irrational demand wasn't appeased.

God bless y'all for the good laughs while the Toronto police remain expelled.

Disagreeing with something is not "throwing a hissy fit".

Cops are emissaries of a physical institution that enforces various forms of oppression against minorities that they justify as law and order. It's absolutely fair to say that individual cops represent the institution their practices and what it stands for once they put on the uniform. Maybe the PDs have improved at least to your liking but unfortunately BLM-TO doesn't agree. Instead of the policing making that effort to convince themthey essentially take their ball home and have their union dogs sabotage the parade out of sheer pettiness.

The police were absolutely being petty, but I believe the exclusion was petty in the first place, given this is standard practice in Pride parades. Why is there not a strong movement to emulate this in other Pride parades if it is so virtuous an action? Has anybody in here advocated for this measure in their local Pride parade? I'm genuinely asking.

 

[CazTGG]

Disagreeing with something is not "throwing a hissy fit".

Toronto police union wants Pride funding pulled after floats banned

According to you, they disagree that Pride should have adequate funding (which was one of BLM TO's requests).

Good on them.

Define "good" in the context of this story.

 

[ZeroGravity]

Good on them.

 

[Koodo]

Disagreeing with something is not "throwing a hissy fit".

I suppose we could have used the word "racism" to describe these arguments, for the sake of being more specific.

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

Toronto police union wants Pride funding pulled after floats banned

According to you, they disagree that Pride should have adequate funding (which was one of BLM TO's requests).



Define "good" in the context of this story.

No, trying to shut down an entire parade because you were excluded IS throwing a hissy fit. I assumed that poster was talking about various people in this thread opposing BLM-TO and Pride's rationale, not the police and NYPD, themselves. If I was mistaken in this, I apologize and retract.

Edit: Aaaaaaaand I wasn't. Figured.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

So back in 1997, when GOAL sued the NYPD and Rudy Giuliani from forbidding police officers to wear their uniforms to march in the NYC Pride parade, you supported the NYPD and Giuliani?

GOAL sued the NYPD in 1996:
http://www.upi.com/Archives/1996/04/02/NYC-gay-police-charge-discrimination/9613828421200/



https://www.theatlantic.com/nationa...ch-on-saint-patricks-day-if-gays-cant/283775/

Those links are arguing something entirely different. That argument is that gay officers are being denied the ability to wear their uniforms that are given to other police affiliated groups. I agree with them, if other officers can do it they should to. My argument is the police have zero business being allowed to wear their uniform for anything outside of work.

And, this is also ignoring the fact that Pride is a private event and they don't have accept the presence of state sanctioned officers at their event. Good attempt at a gotcha though.

 

[Koomaster]

They are welcome, just without uniforms. I don't see the problem. Think of it as a dress code.

 

[numble]

Those links are arguing something entirely different. That argument is that gay officers are being denied the ability to wear their uniforms that are given to other police affiliated groups. I agree with them, if other officers can do it they should to. My argument is the police have zero business being allowed to wear their uniform for anything outside of work.

And, this is also ignoring the fact that Pride is a private event and they don't have accept the presence of state sanctioned officers at their event. Good attempt at a gotcha though.

Where is there a gotcha?
You said that you do not believe they should wear the uniform outside of work, so you would disagree with them suing for the right to wear their uniforms in the NYC parade, right? You would agree with the NYPD forbidding them to wear their uniforms, and disagree with them filing a discrimination lawsuit against the NYPD, right?

 

[indigo lily]

Cops are emissaries of a physical institution that enforces various forms of oppression against minorities that they justify as law and order. It's absolutely fair to say that individual cops represent the institution, its practice, and what it stands for once they put on the uniform. Maybe the PDs have improved at least to your liking but unfortunately BLM-TO doesn't agree. Instead of the policing making that effort to convince them they essentially take their ball home and have their union dogs sabotage the parade out of sheer pettiness.

This is what makes me so furious. Like there has been no real attempt at all by Toronto Police to mitigate the situation. Maybe it's because they know they have the general public on their side. Plus when faced with uncomfortable truths many "allies" fold right back into their status-quo maintaining narratives.

 

[excelsiorlef]

So back in 1997, when GOAL sued the NYPD and Rudy Giuliani from forbidding police officers to wear their uniforms to march in the NYC Pride parade, you supported the NYPD and Giuliani?

GOAL sued the NYPD in 1996:
http://www.upi.com/Archives/1996/04/02/NYC-gay-police-charge-discrimination/9613828421200/



https://www.theatlantic.com/nationa...ch-on-saint-patricks-day-if-gays-cant/283775/

Guiliani and the NYPD in 1997 were being homophobic...

This situation is not homophobia...

Parade organizers setting a rule and the NYPD discriminating against their members are not the same thing.

1997 discrimination against gay folk

2017 A criticism of the police...

Second time you've made this argument while pretending not to be comparing the two

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

Those links are arguing something entirely different. That argument is that gay officers are being denied the ability to wear their uniforms that are given to other police affiliated groups. I agree with them, if other officers can do it they should to. My argument is the police have zero business being allowed to wear their uniform for anything outside of work.

And, this is also ignoring the fact that Pride is a private event and they don't have accept the presence of state sanctioned officers at their event. Good attempt at a gotcha though.

This is a perfectly valid argument, albeit one I don't necessarily agree with, but it's also completely different from the argument made by the parade organizers and merits a somewhat separate discussion in that it's more about the ontological nature of police, themselves, rather than specific historical grievances claimed to require redress for reinstatement of a previously-extended privilege.

 

[numble]

Guiliani and the NYPD in 1997 were being homophobic...

This situation is not homophobia...

Parade organizers setting a rule and the NYPD discriminating against their members are not the same thing.

1997 discrimination against gay folk

2017 A criticism of the police...

Second time you've made this argument while pretending not to be comparing the two

Where am I comparing the 2?
He is saying he believes police officers should be banned from wearing uniforms outside of work period. Which means he basically agrees with the NYPD and Giuliani in 1996 when they wanted to ban police officers from wearing uniforms in the NYC parade.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

Where is there a gotcha?
You said that you do not believe they should wear the uniform outside of work, so you would disagree with them suing for the right to wear their uniforms in the NYC parade, right? You would agree with the NYPD forbidding them to wear their uniforms, and disagree with them filing a discrimination lawsuit against the NYPD, right?

Did you read what I said?

Spoiler

Obviously not since I clearly addressed this already

Those links are highlighting something different. Those links are highlighting that LGBT officers were being prohibited from wearing their uniforms while other police affiliated groups saw no such limitations. Yeah, I 100% agree with their lawsuit. The rule has to be applied the same across the board.

That has nothing to do with whether I think any officers have any right to wear their uniforms outside of working for anything. It's not just clothes, they have very specific societal meaning and implications that you don't get with a suit and tie or a a pair of coveralls.

Where am I comparing the 2?
He is saying he believes police officers should be banned from wearing uniforms outside of work period. Which means he basically agrees with the NYPD and Giuliani in 1996 when they wanted to ban police officers from wearing uniforms in the NYC parade.

This is such a hilarious perversion of what I said.

 

[numble]

Did you read what I said?

Spoiler

Obviously not since I clearly addressed this already

Those links are highlighting something different. Those links are highlighting that LGBT officers were being prohibited from wearing their uniforms while other police affiliated groups saw no such limitations. Yeah, I 100% agree with their lawsuit. The rule has to be applied the same across the board.

That has nothing to do with whether I think any officers have any right to wear their uniforms outside of working for anything. It's not just clothes, they have very specific societal meaning and implications that you don't get with a suit and tie or a a pair of coveralls.

I don't think you can agree with the suit that requests that they be allowed to wear uniforms and simultaneously think they should not be allowed to wear them. You would need to argue that the NYPD was right, for different reasons, and should ban the uniforms elsewhere. No lawyer on the gay officers' side were arguing for the idea of banning uniforms for everyone outside of work.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Police could have since this happened, talked about what they are doing to improve relations with black folk, they could have discussed and listened and demonstrated literally some effort on that front...

Instead what they did was demand Pride get defunded, refused to speak on the issues BLM has raised, acted like they were being oppressed, and now called New York and their police more progressive and claimed they were leading the way.

Instead of taking any effort to work on the criticisms they instead have decided to go march hand in hand with the NYPD...

A department notorious for discrimination against black folk, the very main criticism lobbed against them by BLM TO.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

This is a perfectly valid argument, albeit one I don't necessarily agree with, but it's also completely different from the argument made by the parade organizers and merits a somewhat separate discussion in that it's more about the ontological nature of police, themselves, rather than specific historical grievances claimed to require redress for reinstatement of a previously-extended privilege.

You can't separate the power the police hold from their oppression of minority groups. The whole crux of why BLM TO doesn't want the police in the parade is because they use their state sanctioned power to oppress members of the LGBTQ community who are also POC. This makes them feel unsafe and as though pride is more about celebrating their oppressors than about them.

The whole issue of the police pretending a uniform is an actual identity stems from a lack of respect for POC which has pretty much been emphasized by everything they have done in regards to this pride situation.

 

[Breads]

The solution is simple, just hide a part of your identity because it makes me uncomfortable. Sounds like a great plan!

Oh. The rebel flag argument!

That's fucking stupid.

Police are the symbol of the oppression to marginalized people and yet banning police isn't what the marginalized people are asking for. All they want is to be met in the middle.

And yet police would rather parade their symbol of oppression around than actually demonstrating solidarity.

And for what. The "police" identity? Yeah no that's bullshit. Let me know when people get the option to leave their blackness at home in order to not be harassed that day and then we can start talking about police identity being on the same level here.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

I don't think you can agree with the suit that requests that they be allowed to wear uniforms and simultaneously think they should not be allowed to wear them.

Eh, yes you can. You can argue a rule shouldn't exist but while it does believe it needs to be applied fairly. This isn't even an opinion, you are just wrong here.

 

[Infinite]

Disagreeing with something is not "throwing a hissy fit".



The police were absolutely being petty, but I believe the exclusion was petty in the first place, given this is standard practice in Pride parades. Why is there not a strong movement to emulate this in other Pride parades if it is so virtuous an action? Has anybody in here advocated for this measure in their local Pride parade? I'm genuinely asking.

Can only speak for NYC but the pride parade here is super corporate and a noticeable segment of the LGBT community don't participate due to that and other concerns. Toronto's seems slightly more grassroots and thus a grassroots org like BLM-TO can have an easier time even pulling what they did off with enough willpower and bodies. I'm just spitballing though.

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

You can't separate the power the police hold from their oppression of minority groups. The whole crux of why BLM TO doesn't want the police in the parade is because they use their state sanctioned power to oppress members of the LGBTQ community who are also POC. This makes them feel unsafe and as though pride is more about celebrating their oppressors than about them.

The whole issue of the police pretending a uniform is an actual identity stems from a lack of respect for POC which has pretty much been emphasized by everything they have done in regards to this pride situation.

Hey, you will not get any argument from me that the police are very assholish in this situation. They are assholes in basically every situation. That I disagree with the rationale for their exclusion from the parade is not a defense of cops by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[indigo lily]

No, trying to shut down an entire parade because you were excluded IS throwing a hissy fit. I assumed that poster was talking about various people in this thread opposing BLM-TO and Pride's rationale, not the police and NYPD, themselves. If I was mistaken in this, I apologize and retract.

Edit: Aaaaaaaand I wasn't. Figured.

I don't think I have seen the list of demands from BLMTO posted yet, but here it is again:

PRIDE TORONTO

Continued space, including stage and tents, funding and logistical support for Black Queer Youth.

Self-determination for all community spaces at Pride, allowing community groups full control over hiring, content and structure of their stages.

Full and adequate funding for community stages, including logistical, technical and personnel support.

Doubling of funding for Blockorama to $13,000.

Reinstatement of the South Asian stage.

Prioritizing of the hiring of Black transwomen, Indigenous people and others from vulnerable communities at Pride Toronto.

More Black deaf and hearing sign language interpreters for the festival.

Removal of police floats in the Pride marches and parades.

A town hall organized in conjunction with groups from marginalized communities, including but not limited to Black Lives Matter – Toronto, Blackness Yes and Black Queer Youth, in six months, where Pride Toronto will present an update and action plan on BLM-TO's demands

I posted this before and the highlighted were issues that I instantly agreed with. It addressed many of the visibility issues that many that I know in the queer POC community had ongoing issues with for Pride.

The police ban I was wishy-washy on initially until the vitriolic public response. I definitely get why putting this demand forward was important because it started showing the cracks with "allies" and how a lot of people in Canada think we are some utopian country. The poor response from the Toronto Police Unions these past few months has only validated this as well.

 

[Acorn]

Oh. The rebel flag argument!

That's fucking stupid.

Police are the symbol of the oppression to marginalized people and yet banning police isn't what the marginalized people are asking for. All they want is to be met in the middle.

And yet police would rather parade their symbol of oppression around than actually demonstrating solidarity.

And for what. The "police" identity? Yeah no that's bullshit. Let me know when people get the option to leave their blackness at home in order to not be harassed that day and then we can start talking about police identity being on the same level here.

Comparing police to Confederates is mind boggling to me. They have their deep entrenched issues but that isn't a sensible comparison to make iirc.

Also as I said earlier Police here in the UK attend pride events in uniform and it's viewed as good for community cohesion. The UK police are and were no angels when it comes to lbgt rights here(especially in the 80s and early 90s) but it's getting better and things like attending pride further helps imo.

 

[firehawk12]

Can only speak for NYC but the pride parade here is super corporate and a noticeable segment of the LGBT community don't participate due to that and other concerns. Toronto's seems slightly more grassroots and thus a grassroots org like BLM-TO can have an easier time even pulling what they did off with enough willpower and bodies. I'm just spitballing though.

Toronto Pride is pretty corporate as well. I mean, it's still big, but it's a business.

The "ban" happened at a general assembly for the event though, with members voting to adopt BLM's demands. I'm not sure if the NYC event has a similar process.

 

[Koodo]

FYI for those being cute and peddling the narrative that BLM TO invaded the Pride space: BLM TO is significantly composed of, and founded by, queer and trans folk of color. They are inseparable from the LGBTQ community – and if we're going to play a numbers game out of pettiness about who deserves to be attending a parade that originated as a violent protest, the ones protesting for human rights and better treatment would be leading the pack in "deserved attendance" far ahead of those electing to sit on the sidelines for a day of debauchery and racking up woofs on Scruff.

Know your history.

 

[CazTGG]

Edit, misread your post, my apologies.

 

[Infinite]

Comparing police to Confederates is mind boggling to me. They have their deep entrenched issues but that isn't a sensible comparison to make iirc.

Also as I said earlier Police here in the UK attend pride events in uniform and it's viewed as good for community cohesion. The UK police are and were no angels when it comes to lbgt rights here(especially in the 80s and early 90s) but it's getting better and things like attending pride further helps imo.

It only helps when they do the work to improve relations with those communities every single day and not just when it's time for a photo op

 

[numble]

Eh, yes you can. You can argue a rule shouldn't exist but while it does believe it needs to be applied fairly. This isn't even an opinion, you are just wrong here.

You do not 100% agree with a case if you believe that its underlying claim should not exist as a rule. Have you read all the claims to be certain that you 100% agree with the case? This isn't even an opinion, you are just wrong here.

The opinion in the follow-on case supported the plaintiffs' claim that officers' rights to free expression was diminished if they could not wear their uniform in parades, do you 100% agree with this claim?

 

[The Kree]

Comparing police to Confederates is mind boggling to me. They have their deep entrenched issues but that isn't a sensible comparison to make iirc.

Also as I said earlier Police here in the UK attend pride events in uniform and it's viewed as good for community cohesion. The UK police are and were no angels when it comes to lbgt rights here(especially in the 80s and early 90s) but it's getting better and things like attending pride further helps imo.

Police in America started as plantation patrols, so comparing them to confederates is actually pretty fair.

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

So, for the record:
-Addressing systemic issues with the police discrimination against black and/or LGBTQ+ individuals as well as representation of a minority group in an event that's supposed to be dedicated to said group by using ten minutes or so to bring attention to these issues in a parade that was itself founded as a protest against the police's discriminatory raids in the 80s (of which their actions continue to this very day via carding, Project Marie, etc.) = Hissy fit
-Calling to defund an organization that gives because you don't get a float due to rules that said organization voted on before agreeing to them = Justified.

Good to know where you stand, I suppose.



If this thread is anything to go by, most people don't even know the history of Pride itself.

What the fuck are you talking about? I said that the police's actions in response to being excluded were a hissy fit. Your conclusions are literally the opposite of what I stated.

 

[excelsiorlef]

You do not 100% agree with a case if you believe that its underlying claim should not exist as a rule. Have you read all the claims to be certain that you 100% agree with the case? This isn't even an opinion, you are just wrong here.

The opinion in the follow-on case supported the plaintiffs' claim that officers' rights to free expression was diminished if they could not wear their uniform in parades, do you 100% agree with this claim?

Can you return to 2017?


Please.

 

[Acorn]

It only helps when they do the work to improve relations with those communities every single day and not just when it's time for a photo op

Agreed on that count.

 

[Infinite]

Police in America started as plantation patrols, so comparing them to confederates is actually pretty fair.

lol didn't the FBI do a huge report uncovering huge amount of actual white supremacists and KKK members are entrenched in local pds across the country?

 

[Acorn]

Police in America started as plantation patrols, so comparing them to confederates is actually pretty fair.

It's 2017 now though, not the 18th century. As I said they clearly have deeply entrenched problems in the US but don't think the comparison is apt in general.

 

[numble]

Can you return to 2017?


Please.

This is about 2017. He disagrees with allowing police officers to wear uniforms outside of work, while 100% agreeing with a case that claimed that police officers were denied the right to free expression if they were not allowed to wear uniforms outside of work.

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

Police in America started as plantation patrols, so comparing them to confederates is actually pretty fair.

This is a misleading way to represent history, in that it's true for only some of the US.

I would venture a guess that the Toronto police prob have more in common with the "modified citizen patrol" model that predominated in the American north.

 

[Lois_Lane]

Agreed on that count.

So you should understand why they don't want the institution there. If they aren't willing to put in the hard work to build trust then they don't deserve a float. If your kid smears shit on the wall your not going to give them a cookie for washing their hands. They have to clean the shit wall too.

 

[excelsiorlef]

This is about 2017. He disagrees with allowing police officers to wear uniforms outside of work, while 100% agreeing with a case that claimed that police officers were denied the right to free expression if they were not allowed to wear uniforms outside of work.

Do you think that anyone who personally wouldn't have an abortion must also inherently think it should be illegal?