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[Sho_Nuff82]

Nothing new. Religion, hip hop, culture in general. I'd also say there's a bit of raised eyebrows when you see gay people using terms like "gay is the new black" or comparing the gay marriage struggle to the civil rights struggles of MLK's day.

I mean, I'm for gay marriage but lets not pretend it's analogous to the civil rights marches.

I'd agree that the false equivalency also didn't do the cause any favors. Hearing (predominantly) white gay people claim that they have it as bad as blacks in the first half of the 20th century isn't going to win you votes. There are certainly similarities in the legislative battle, but there is no real equivalency to Jim Crow segregation down south, or the systematic disenfranchisement of black voters.

 

[Gaborn]

Washington is only liberal in certain places, but I'll be really surprised if the recent decision isn't overturned by the people.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see what happens.

We'll have to see, but I suspect you'd find most of the blue areas are more populous than the red areas, although even then conservatives are becoming more receptive to marriage equality than the past. In a lot of ways marriage equality is a lot like the drug war. It's still skewed as a liberal/conservative issue but considerably less so than it once was.

 

[Omegasquash]

Mostly rural/maritime white if I recall correctly, yes?

Depends on where you're looking. In some areas, it's exactly what you say. In others, not so much. Of that demographic (in which I was raised, minus the maritime), there was a...distrust of that to which you were not exposed, which included race often, but FAR moreso homosexuality. WAY more.

 

[Dr. Malik]

Nicki Minaj will change this with her controversial gay alter ego Roman, her fans will convert.

 

[xavi42]

The Washington law will be repealed by the voters. In a normal election year, the state is almost evenly split when it comes to Democrats and Republicans. This new law will have an effect on the right, they will come out in numbers to vote it down.

 

[Omegasquash]

Correct if wrong, but hasn't marriage historically been 'about' property, inheritance, and financial security rather than primarily serving as a religious ceremony? Not to mention that whole spousal ownership thing we've sort of chucked out the window.

Yep, but since some people see marriage as something that takes place in a church, they deem the origin to be religious. Not hard to see WHY they think that way, but it is daunting to see that people are so rigid with THEIR belief, as opposed to historical fact.

 

[FoneBone]

Nothing new. Religion, hip hop, culture in general. I'd also say there's a bit of raised eyebrows when you see gay people using terms like "gay is the new black" or comparing the gay marriage struggle to the civil rights struggles of MLK's day.

I mean, I'm for gay marriage but lets not pretend it's analogous to the civil rights marches.

There was also (especially post prop-8) too much condescension and finger-pointing, in that blacks were just "supposed" to support gay rights, regardless of the LGBT movement's own outreach.

In a perfect world, marriage would not decreed by the state--it would be a religious thing, and every "marriage" would be viewed as a "civil union" by the state. It would be up to the marrying parties to superimpose their own religious values on it if they want.

But it's not a perfect world, and it is immoral to treat the gay and lesbian community as second-class citizens. Full marriage equality should be deemed a human right by the US Supreme Court, ballot initiatives be damned. Wonder how long school integration would have taken if it had been voted on state-by-state?

As said above, marriage is not primarily a religious institution, and should not be treated as such.

 

[ivysaur12]

Washington is only liberal in certain places, but I'll be really surprised if the recent decision isn't overturned by the people.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see what happens.

Don't be disingenuous and post a picture of a map that doesn't take population density into account. That's like posting a map of Illinois and going "LOLOLOL RED EVERYWHERE EXCEPT FOR COOK COUNTY!"

It's polling very well and you're the only state in the country that's upheld a law by a popular vote to give gay couples "everything but marriage" in an off-election year by 6 points. Add in a presidential election year with more young people voting in a relatively liberal state where the issue is polling in the mid 50s (last OCTOBER), and you'd be "surprised" if it was upheld? Hah.

I think you would be surprised, Gaborn. Actually you're a great person to ask this question to...

Has a vote of the people in any state ever gone in favor of the pro-homosexual camp?

Alright, Mclaren. Stop.

 

[Dude Abides]

Wonder how long school integration would have taken if it had been voted on state-by-state?

With all deliberate speed.

 

[Dark Octave]

So white religious people keep open minds?

So, most black people are closed minded? Because most black people are religious.

Keep reaching out to the black community with posts like this.

Edit: Not assuming you are gay.

Get the fuck out of here with that shit.

But at the end of the day, yes, some of my family tends to lean more toward traditional Christian conservative values.

I don't know what white people do. I assume they are the same. But I know for a fact that a good majority of people I know who are also very religious are not trying to hear about gay issues and non religious people. Simply are not having it.

 

[jaxword]

Correct if wrong, but hasn't marriage historically been 'about' property, inheritance, and financial security rather than primarily serving as a religious ceremony? Not to mention that whole spousal ownership thing we've sort of chucked out the window.

That one dude isn't coming back apparently, but claims of marriage as an exclusively Christian tradition - and therefore a tradition Christians can impose certain rules on - ring hollow for me for that reason.

It shouldn't surprise you that in religious/political debates people run off cowardly when they realize their stance is weak and their argument is being chipped away. The excuses change from person to person, but it's always the same in the end.

 

[PogiJones]

It shouldn't surprise you that in religious/political debates people run off cowardly when they realize their stance is weak and their argument is being chipped away. The excuses change from person to person, but it's always the same in the end.

Come on now, I've been very courteous and clear as to why I left. I didn't feel my position was weak, I was just trying to be courteous to the OP and everyone who wanted to discuss the thread. This wasn't a thread about what I was talking about, and when I realized I'd derailed it I kindly bowed out. I have had PMs with other people in the thread, just as I said I would. Please be a little more courteous before trying to deflate an argument with simple like-minded suggestion. In fact, I wasn't even trying to argue, as everyone is already set in their ways. I just try to increase understanding and empathy between the two groups, so people don't end up hating the other side, as is far too prevalent in the issue.

I have no illusions that marriage is completely of religious origins, which is why I explicitly mentioned it's a religious tradition of the past few centuries. Although Christmas is of Pagan origin, I enjoy the holiday as it's become over the past couple centuries, and I would be saddened to see Christ removed from it. It's a similar concept with marriage.

But really, PM me if you want to talk about it. This thread is about how the LGBT community can court the black community.

 

[Count Dookkake]

It shouldn't surprise you that in religious/political debates people run off cowardly when they realize their stance is weak and their argument is being chipped away. The excuses change from person to person, but it's always the same in the end.

Yup.

Then after a bit of silence, it starts all over again. Any perceived progress is swept aside and we go back to explaining what things like "theory" or "evidence" mean.

 

[jaxword]

But really, PM me if you want to talk about it. This thread is about how the LGBT community can court the black community.

No thank you, you don't seem very honest.

Yup.

Then after a bit of silence, it starts all over again. Any perceived progress is swept aside and we go back to explaining what things like "theory" or "evidence" mean.

Well, you know as well as I do that no one, and I mean NO ONE, is going to change their political/religious minds from an internet debate.

If they DID, then they'd probably change their minds the next time someone charismatic/influential tells them to in a month anyways. People don't argue because they want to hear opposing points of view, they want an echo chamber and justifications for feeling the way they do-i.e. persecution syndrome.

Hence the back and forth for this issue--you really think anyone's going to realize "hey, maybe my views on homosexuality are abhorrent and I should change them" in real life? I'd honestly like to hear a pastor or political leader successfully convince a community to do a 180 on this issue. It'd definitely be a positive story.

 

[Ghost_Protocol]

I don't know about you guys, but I've been noticing a surprisingly positive trend of support for gay marriage in the comments sections of some of the worst places imaginable: youtube and yahoo. Whenever a story/video proposing gay marriage comes up, I'm seeing more and more support and even condemnation of other commentors who are against it. Is anyone else noticing this?

 

[Gaborn]

I don't know about you guys, but I've been noticing a surprisingly positive trend of support for gay marriage in the comments sections of some of the worst places imaginable: youtube and yahoo. Whenever a story/video proposing gay marriage comes up, I'm seeing more and more support and even condemnation of other commentors who are against it. Is anyone else noticing this?

Young people are overwhelmingly in favor of marriage equality and are the predominant commenters on youtube and presumably yahoo, it really shouldn't be THAT surprising. Still a hard slog ahead for us.

 

[mavs]

Don't be disingenuous and post a picture of a map that doesn't take population density into account. That's like posting a map of Illinois and going "LOLOLOL RED EVERYWHERE EXCEPT FOR COOK COUNTY!"

It's polling very well and you're the only state in the country that's upheld a law by a popular vote to give gay couples "everything but marriage" in an off-election year by 6 points. Add in a presidential election year with more young people voting in a relatively liberal state where the issue is polling in the mid 50s (last OCTOBER), and you'd be "surprised" if it was upheld? Hah.

That wasn't actually an off-election year, there was an election for mayor of Seattle on the same ballot and it was between two Democrats. The more left/community minded candidate upset the establishment pick.

I think the referendum will still pass this year.

 

[ivysaur12]

That wasn't actually an off-election year, there was an election for mayor of Seattle on the same ballot and it was between two Democrats. The more left/community minded candidate upset the establishment pick.

I think the referendum will still pass this year.

2009 is an off-election year, despite whatever local battles there may be. There was no presidential election, therefore, turnouts are notoriously low across the state. And it still passed.

Voter turnout was 84.61% of registered voters in 2008. Only 50.88% voted on Referendum 71. Lower voter turn outs tend to hurt liberals because younger voters tend to vote only in presidential elections. Which is 2012.

I'd be much more concerned about the North Carolina vote. I really think Washington, Maine, and Minnesota (because of their wacky law) will uphold their votes. Especially in a presidential election year.

 

[Ghost_Protocol]

Young people are overwhelmingly in favor of marriage equality and are the predominant commenters on youtube and presumably yahoo, it really shouldn't be THAT surprising. Still a hard slog ahead for us.

It's surprising because the yahoo/youtube comments sections are usually wretched hives of scum and villainy. I'm not used to seeing anything positive in them.

 

[The Technomancer]

Hey there, I really am not trying to get into a debate, just sharing thoughts, but to answer your question, I believe in a civil union that has all the rights that marriage does, but marriage retains the traditional meaning that it's held for centuries or more. I explain this in the post above, but no tangible limitations would be put on gay couples in a civil union. They can adopt, they can commit, they can have a ceremony, etc. The only difference is the title of the paper in their filing cabinet. So I don't feel like conservation of the definition of marriage is telling them what they can do with their life. They still have full freedom to do anything, ceremony and all, ring and all.

But like I mention in the post above, I completely understand why they want the word marriage.

Honest question: what do you feel contributes more to your feelings about the definition of marriage: your religious beliefs or your views on its practical functions? Do your feelings about the definition of marriage stem from its importance in your faith? I swear I'm not setting this up to be a "well if its religion then you're a stupid religious person" answer.

 

[ivysaur12]

They're debating (and maybe voting) today. Looks like it may just have enough votes to pass. Since it'll pass in the Senate, this would make Maryland the 8th state for gay marriage. Would be 9th if Christie wasn't the worst ever.

 

[Dark Octave]

If this passes, how did Maryland become cooler, more accepting and more logical than California?

I'm still pissed over that prop 8 BS.

 

[ivysaur12]

If this passes, how did Maryland become cooler, more accepting and more logical than California?

I'm still pissed over that prop 8 BS.

You and me both. No way I'm walking into a court house and dehumanizing my relationship with a fucking "domestic partnership."

 

[Omegasquash]

You and me both. No way I'm walking into a court house and dehumanizing my relationship with a fucking "domestic partnership."

It makes me absolutely nuts that a preacher could pronounce a couple married BY THE POWER VESTED IN HIM OR HER BY THE STATE, but a court couldn't do that.

 

[ivysaur12]

It makes me absolutely nuts that a preacher could pronounce a couple married BY THE POWER VESTED IN HIM OR HER BY THE STATE, but a court couldn't do that.

I mean, I'd probably get married in a church to appease my parents. But still. Ridiculous.

I am not getting a domestic partnership or civil union unless it's absolutely necessary for some huge pragmatic reasons, and I know a ton of gay people my age who feel the exact same way. Ugh. Pisses me off just to think about - there's no way that I'm going to drink from the separate water fountain. I'll move to Iowa before that.

 

[Previous]

This reminds me on the one DC council member (Marion Barry of all people) who voted against the Districts same sex marriage law because he felt that African Americans in his ward were apposed to this, and said speaking about if the law passed: "All hell is going to break loose" "We may have a civil war. The black community is just adamant against this."

 

[ivysaur12]

This reminds me on the one DC council member (Marion Barry of all people) who voted against the Districts same sex marriage law because he felt that African Americans in his ward were apposed to this, and said speaking about if the law passed: "All hell is going to break loose" "We may have a civil war. The black community is just adamant against this."

Personally, I shake every time I walk through the national mall over the ongoing civil war over gay marriage.

 

[Omegasquash]

This reminds me on the one DC council member (Marion Barry of all people) who voted against the Districts same sex marriage law because he felt that African Americans in his ward were apposed to this, and said speaking about if the law passed: "All hell is going to break loose" "We may have a civil war. The black community is just adamant against this."

Marion Barry is an anomaly. Man gets caught with rocks in the office, then gets re-elected.

 

[Parallax]

This reminds me on the one DC council member (Marion Barry of all people) who voted against the Districts same sex marriage law because he felt that African Americans in his ward were apposed to this, and said speaking about if the law passed: "All hell is going to break loose" "We may have a civil war. The black community is just adamant against this."

Ahh, marion "that bitch set me up" barry, aka crackula. Civil war? Come on.

 

[Neuromancer]

You'd think, all things being equal, black people in this country would be more empathetic to other groups facing prejudice and civil rights issues.

As a Marylander, I wish I could vote on this bill directly.

 

[Manmademan]

The trick is, lots of black communities are built around churches, and there are a WHOLE lot of churches...

this is pretty much all that needs to be said.

If the church disapproves, you're going to have a very hard time getting traction- because being involved in the church is very much tied into the definition of being black, and the black community.

 

[Valhelm]

Given their history of being persecuted, one would think that they'd have a greater understanding of discrimination.

It's not uncommon for groups that have persevered through extreme prejudice to later oppress others. Israel could be an example.

 

[Majmun]

This is getting ridiculous.

Just legalize it. People who are against it will forget about it in a few years. All this talk about this issue will not solve anything.

Gay marriage will be legal eventually. People should just accept it and mind their own business.

 

[Barkley's Justice]

you realize muurlund is in the south, right? #goodluckwiththat

 

[ivysaur12]

you realize muurlund is in the south, right? #goodluckwiththat

There is so much wrong with this post that I don't even know where to begin.

 

[Matt_C]

Is the hero Maryland needs now.

If Marylanders cannot love themselves, how in the hell are they going to love someone else? Can we get an Amen?

 

[ivysaur12]

Final delegate secured. Assembly will pass marriage equality this afternoon. Enough votes in the house. Gov will sign.

8th state.

 

[levious]

Marion Barry is an anomaly. Man gets caught with rocks in the office, then gets re-elected.

That had more to do with how terrible Sharon Pratt Kelly/Dixon was.

 

[Bay Maximus]

this is pretty much all that needs to be said.

If the church disapproves, you're going to have a very hard time getting traction- because being involved in the church is very much tied into the definition of being black, and the black community.

So...... being a part of the church is part of the definition of being black? So it would follow that those who aren't in the church aren't black? Got quite a few people I need to call and try to let them down easy, I guess. Not trying to be mean but, that post sounds kinda stupid. Religion has an influence in many black people's lives sure, but to say that it is part of the very definition of 'black' is..... wrong to say the least.

 

[Mercury Fred]

Final delegate secured. Assembly will pass marriage equality this afternoon. Enough votes in the house. Gov will sign.

8th state.

Holy shiz!

 

[ivysaur12]

So...... being a part of the church is part of the definition of being black? So it would follow that those who aren't in the church aren't black? Got quite a few people I need to call and try to let them down easy, I guess. Not trying to be mean but, that post sounds kinda stupid. Religion has an influence in many black people's lives sure, but to say that it is part of the very definition of 'black' is..... wrong to say the least.

There was an interesting article in the NYT a few months ago about Black Atheists. They talked about this exact subject.

Here: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/27/fashion/african-american-atheists.html?pagewanted=all

 

[Stat Flow]

I don't know what white people do. I assume they are the same. But I know for a fact that a good majority of people I know who are also very religious are not trying to hear about gay issues and non religious people. Simply are not having it.

Yep.

 

[soul creator]

So...... being a part of the church is part of the definition of being black? So it would follow that those who aren't in the church aren't black? Got quite a few people I need to call and try to let them down easy, I guess. Not trying to be mean but, that post sounds kinda stupid. Religion has an influence in many black people's lives sure, but to say that it is part of the very definition of 'black' is..... wrong to say the least.

I don't think he's saying that's how it "should" be, but that's often how it manifests itself.

I've had discussions with black folks where atheism was literally called "some white people shit". Or that if I didn't believe in a god I was "disrespecting my ancestors".

Yeah.

 

[Mr.Squirrel]

Where's the article with the title "Gay Marriage a Tough Sell with Whites all over the fucking country!"

 

[Shapingo]

My somewhat widly uneducated guess is--besides the religiousity aspect, which plays a huuuge role--is that maybe formerly oppressed minority groups (blacks in this case) do want to associate themselves with or help any currently oppressed groups (LGBT people in this ase) for two reasons:

1) Fear that they will get dragged back into the fray (so they want nothing to do with fighting for rights anymore)

2) Feel they are "done" with their struggle and that other oppressed groups need to "earn" their rights with the same amont of hardship or even more. This may also translate into overcompensatory elititist attitudes and more fervent "backlash oppression" against currently oppressed groups. Sometimes it seems like a "HAHA! Now that I have some power, it's MY turn to be a huge bigot!".

This also works for how a racial group can gain a bunch of rights or influence but still be hypocritically racist towards smaller racial minority groups.

I otherwise don't get it.

There are no blacks that are gay?

 

[Bay Maximus]

There was an interesting article in the NYT a few months ago about Black Atheists. They talked about this exact subject.

Here: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/27/fashion/african-american-atheists.html?pagewanted=all

Interesting read. Thanks for the link.

I don't think he's saying that's how it "should" be, but that's often how it manifests itself.

I've had discussions with black folks where atheism was literally called "some white people shit". Or that if I didn't believe in a god I was "disrespecting my ancestors".

Yeah.

He said it was part of the definition of being black. It isn't. And just because there are black people that will shun athiests doesn't make it any less false. It's fucking preposterous actually. Let's follow that line of thinking then; Most guys are straight and many will shun homosexual guys, therefore being straight is part of the definition of being male. Ludicrous.

Pro-tip: don't make up shit about a group you're not a part of (thanks).

.

 

[Mr.Squirrel]

My somewhat widly uneducated guess is--besides the religiousity aspect, which plays a huuuge role--is that maybe formerly oppressed minority groups (blacks in this case) do want to associate themselves with or help any currently oppressed groups (LGBT people in this ase) for two reasons:

1) Fear that they will get dragged back into the fray (so they want nothing to do with fighting for rights anymore)

2) Feel they are "done" with their struggle and that other oppressed groups need to "earn" their rights with the same amont of hardship or even more. This may also translate into overcompensatory elititist attitudes and more fervent "backlash oppression" against currently oppressed groups. Sometimes it seems like a "HAHA! Now that I have some power, it's MY turn to be a huge bigot!".

This also works for how a racial group can gain a bunch of rights or influence but still be hypocritically racist towards smaller racial minority groups.

I otherwise don't get it.

Where the fuck are you guys coming up with this shit? I mean Jesus Christ did you and a bunch of you white friends sit around and come up with this explanation?

1) Black people don't have a fear of being drug back into "the fray." We're still in it. On an almost weekly basis there's articles and reports of discrimination towards black people in America still being done by police, banks, etc. The latest one I remember was the NYPD admitting to routinely planting drugs on black people just to lock them up to meet quota.

2) I've never met a black person who felt they were "done with the struggle." You ask the average black person if he feels he's on equal footing with white people in this country he'll tell you hell no. Every black kid grew up hearing from their parents, grandparents, aunts/uncles, teacher, someone telling them they have to work twice as hard just to get half as far.

Pro-tip: don't make up shit about a group you're not a part of thinks.

 

[FStop7]

Tell them Omar is coming

Thank you!

 

[soul creator]

Interesting read. Thanks for the link.



He said it was part of the definition of being black. It isn't. And just because there are black people that will shun athiests doesn't make it any less false. It's fucking preposterous actually. Let's follow that line of thinking then; Most guys are straight and many will shun homosexual guys, therefore being straight is part of the definition of being male. Ludicrous.

I agree with you! It is preposterous. I thought that's what he was getting at with his post (I maybe just gave him the benefit of the doubt and read that into it, *shrug*) that a lot of people feel that way, and that's something that has to be dealt with when discussing the issue, even if we know it's actually false. After all, the entire debate over gay marriage is about correcting people's poorly informed "beliefs".

Same thing with your "being straight is part of the definition of being male". It is ludicrous, and of course it shouldn't be that way, but a lot of people believe that anyway (hence the whole stereotype that all gay men are "effeminate").

 

[computers putin']

Where the fuck are you guys coming up with this shit? I mean Jesus Christ did you and a bunch of you white friends sit around and come up with this explanation?

1) Black people don't have a fear of being drug back into "the fray." We're still in it. On an almost weekly basis there's articles and reports of discrimination towards black people in America still being done by police, banks, etc. The latest one I remember was the NYPD admitting to routinely planting drugs on black people just to lock them up to meet quota.

2) I've never met a black person who felt they were "done with the struggle." You ask the average black person if he feels he's on equal footing with white people in this country he'll tell you hell no. Every black kid grew up hearing from their parents, grandparents, aunts/uncles, teacher, someone telling them they have to work twice as hard just to get half as far.

Pro-tip: don't make up shit about a group you're not a part of thinks.

Yeah, her post was borderline offensive. It's better to not post if you're just grasping at straws.