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NYT gets Trump's 1995 tax documents, might have avoided taxes for two decades

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E

ElectricBlanketFire

Member
UnfrtVf.jpg
 
C

Christine

Member
JB1981 said:
Pretty sure he pays for that in state taxes, property taxes, excise taxes, payroll taxes etc etc.

The tax thing is really a non-story but a brilliant political talking point for the Clinton camp.
Click to expand...

You're right. NOL carryforward / carryback is not news.

What I want to know is how the fuck Donald has allowed it to become a story. Seriously, why hasn't he put a pin in this? Can anyone explain that?
 
S

Shadybiz

Member
Christine said:
You're right. NOL carryforward / carryback is not news.

What I want to know is how the fuck Donald has allowed it to become a story. Seriously, why hasn't he put a pin in this? Can anyone explain that?
Click to expand...

Right. Exactly. You're a real estate guy who has taken some losses, and didn't have to pay, as a result of loopholes that exist in our system. Soo...why not just SAY that? Why not just say that you haven't paid, and it's because of loopholes that we have, and that maybe you want to close those loopholes. What else is there? That's what stinks so bad about all of this.
 
H

HerbertBirdsfoot

Member
Trump will be pushed hard on closing loopholes, specifically ones for real estate developers. He won't come through, though. Losing issue for him overall.

Really anything that focuses the election on him specifically vs super general lowest common denominator stuff will push him lower.
 
S

SoundofSilence

Member
Christine said:
You're right. NOL carryforward / carryback is not news.

What I want to know is how the fuck Donald has allowed it to become a story. Seriously, why hasn't he put a pin in this? Can anyone explain that?
Click to expand...

Leak appears to have come from inside his company. Panic is setting in. More leaks to come presumably and the surrogates are now going to spend the next 36 days scrambling to cover him.
 
C

Cesare Borgia

Banned
Shadybiz said:
Right. Exactly. You're a real estate guy who has taken some losses, and didn't have to pay, as a result of loopholes that exist in our system. Soo...why not just SAY that? Why not just say that you haven't paid, and it's because of loopholes that we have, and that maybe you want to close those loopholes. What else is there? That's what stinks so bad about all of this.
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While some will view the story like this, there's still the issue of allegedly being a great businessman yet losing nearly a billion dollars during an economic boom year. That doesn't play well and hurts one of the core selling points of his candidacy - that he's a great businessman who will run America like a business and make it great again.
 
R

RustyNails

Member
The argument Trump surrogates put today saying that Trump is a genius for not paying taxes, and that he was well within legal boundaries to do so and yet in the same breath say that Trump will fix the taxcode is a whiplash of an argument. Are they saying Trump will force himself to pay taxes by going there and changing the tax code? He has shown that he has not for the last 2 decades and will use every avenue to avoid doing so. Yet this brave warrior of the little man will FIX the tax code and set things right.
 
C

Chumly

Member
RustyNails said:
The argument Trump surrogates put today saying that Trump is a genius for not paying taxes, and that he was well within legal boundaries to do so and yet in the same breath say that Trump will fix the taxcode is a whiplash of an argument. Are they saying Trump will force himself to pay taxes by going there and changing the tax code? He has shown that he has not for the last 2 decades and will use every avenue to avoid doing so. Yet this brave warrior of the little man will FIX the tax code and set things right.
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Yea what a joke. People want someone to fix the loopholes that trump used but his pathetic surrogates make no mentioning of fixing the abusive tax loopholes that trump has been using for decades.

What good does someone who is a master of the tax code do when he's just going to make it better for himself.
 
M

Mattenth

Member
Christine said:
You're right. NOL carryforward / carryback is not news.

What I want to know is how the fuck Donald has allowed it to become a story. Seriously, why hasn't he put a pin in this? Can anyone explain that?
Click to expand...

What?

Am I the only one who's thinking "of course this is a story"?

The incredible businessman Donald Trump lost nearly $1 billion in a year. That's a story no matter how you spin it. It's opens the possibility that he's one of the worst businessmen of all time.
 
C

Christine

Member
Mattenth said:
What?

Am I the only one who's thinking "of course this is a story"?

The incredible businessman Donald Trump lost nearly $1 billion in a year. That's a story no matter how you spin it. It's opens the possibility that he's one of the worst businessmen of all time.
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That's a large loss, but many rich people have taken large losses as tax deductions. The tax write-off in itself is not notable except for the fact that if he has not paid taxes for this reason it does not make him "smart", it means that he hadn't restored his net worth to where it was before the loss during the 15 years following.

Really the thing though is that he's being punished for lack of transparency in a way that plays really unfavorably to the swing vote that his electoral college hail mary happens to hinge on, so why isn't he doing something about it?
 
R

royalan

Member
Christine said:
That's a large loss, but many rich people have taken large losses as tax deductions. The tax write-off in itself is not notable except for the fact that if he has not paid taxes for this reason it does not make him "smart", it means that he hasn't restored his net worth to where it was before the loss during the 15 years following.

Really the thing though is that he's being punished for lack of transparency in a way that plays really unfavorably to the swing vote that his electoral college hail mary happens to hinge on, so why isn't he doing something about it?
Click to expand...

It's not just the lack of transparency.

1) He lost almost 1 billion dollars of his own money at a time when the economy was good. That's a large personal loss even for a wealthy businessman who plays in profits and losses. He can be as transparent as he wants, and it still blows up the central argument for his candidacy: that he makes good deals. This in conjunction with the 4+ bankruptcies makes Trump look grossly incompetent.

2) "But I know the tax code better than anyone! Only I can fix it!" The immediate counter Hillary will slam him with: why should anyone believe you? You've made your living off of exploiting the tax code as it is now, and your PROPOSED tax code doesn't close these loopholes and, in fact, proposes further tax cuts for the irresponsibly wealthy like you.
 
S

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
Christine said:
That's a large loss, but many rich people have taken large losses as tax deductions. The tax write-off in itself is not notable except for the fact that if he has not paid taxes for this reason it does not make him "smart", it means that he hadn't restored his net worth to where it was before the loss during the 15 years following.

Really the thing though is that he's being punished for lack of transparency in a way that plays really unfavorably to the swing vote that his electoral college hail mary happens to hinge on, so why isn't he doing something about it?
Click to expand...

I mean I get what you're asking but he's basically never had a coherent policy or messaging technique this entire campaign. He's compounded every scandal and not only made them worse, but in some cases resurrected them long after most folks had forgotten them under the deluge of new ones. I can't believe I typed that without hyperbole. That's literally what's happened.
 
F

FrenchMovieTheme

Member
what i don't understand about his puppets' defense of this is they say he is a "genius" and only Donald understands the complex tax code to such a degree that he can fix it but it's pretty obvious Donald has literally NOTHING to do with any tax breaks or write offs or whatever that he has gotten. he obviously has an accountant/lawyer/whatever doing this work for him. i fucking guarantee this dumb motherfucker doesn't have the first clue about the specifics of the tax code.

it's difficult to watch these talking heads because it's so embarrassing, but i can't not watch :(
 
J

JackDT

Member
I feel like the big story is that Trump's big business accomplishment was salvaging wealth for himself personally while massively destroying value all around him. Everyone else lost their lunch as the stock dropped to nothing while he got his millions every year.
 
KyanMehwulfe

KyanMehwulfe

Member
Christine said:
That's a large loss, but many rich people have taken large losses as tax deductions. The tax write-off in itself is not notable except for the fact that if he has not paid taxes for this reason it does not make him "smart", it means that he hadn't restored his net worth to where it was before the loss during the 15 years following.

Really the thing though is that he's being punished for lack of transparency in a way that plays really unfavorably to the swing vote that his electoral college hail mary happens to hinge on, so why isn't he doing something about it?
Click to expand...
yeah i mean, I think Clinton did the exact same thing in 2015

https://m.hrc.onl/secretary/10-documents/01-health-financial-records/Clinton_2015_Form_1040_with_Signature_Page.pdf

she wrote off a $700k loss and i guess looks like to get back about $1m in overpaid tax (i think... i'm a finance not accounting guy and i'm not american either so i dont really know gaap or us income tax lol)

new york times did it in 2014 too...

i mean, most big companies do. heck, the big reason most of the big banks have been good at making EPS calls post 2013 was because all their 2009 loss reserves, where when those writedowns go back up in value, they can take those writedowns, put them back up to new higher values, and release them as profits (because they took them as a loss during the recession).

that said.... the size of Trump's is pretty crazy.... to take that much business loss on ur income tax. no wonder he's been audited every year for a couple decades lol
 
E

ElFly

Member
Christine said:
You're right. NOL carryforward / carryback is not news.

What I want to know is how the fuck Donald has allowed it to become a story. Seriously, why hasn't he put a pin in this? Can anyone explain that?
Click to expand...

because he is presenting himself as a great businessman so saying he lost almost a billion dollars is not that good an idea for their side
 
A

aaaaa0

Member
You know -- to put it in perspective -- this means that in 1995, Donald Trump declared a loss larger than the GDP of 26 countries, or almost as much as the GDP of the bottom 6 countries added together.

But he's a great business man. The best.
/s

Source: IMF (link)
 
J

jellies_two

Member
the thing that is very shady is that almost certainly the paper value of his loss wasn't really ever his money. It was something like an overly inflated value of his share of a casino that went spectacularly bust under his watch, taking with it unpaid debts to working people, other small businesses and small (and large) investors.

So, "aggressively" he gets to write this off as a huge loss, and offset two decades of _real_ income to come. He never really had the money in the bank in the first place it was just monetary helium.

It is just one of many examples of how the very wealthy can drive trucks of cash through tax rules that never envisioned this kind of thing. The alternate minimum tax was placed in as some kind of band-aid fix to stop people rorting the tax code with elaborate deductions, setting some kind of sane base-line of tax payable NO MATTER WHAT - but it does not cover this situation. And he took huge advantage of it. Then used his wealth to roll up a bid for the presidency, instead of doing what a normal person who goes bankrupt over (say) credit card debt does - start again from zero.
 
M

massoluk

Banned
tokkun said:
By law FICA tax is split 50/50 between employees and their employers.

If you ever become self-employed, you will see your payroll taxes double.
Click to expand...

It is on papers, but you will not find many economists arguing it is 50/50. End result is close to 100% burden on employees.
 
C

Culex

Banned
If anything it makes his tax attorneys smart, not trump. He probably doesn't even know what a tax return is.
 
B

Baraka in the White House

2-Terms of Kombat
There really needs to be some sort of investigation into what guys like Rudy, Newt, and Hannity were promised in return for stooging so fucking hard for Donald Trump.

There's something there.
 
B

Breads

Banned
Shadybiz said:
Right. Exactly. You're a real estate guy who has taken some losses, and didn't have to pay, as a result of loopholes that exist in our system. Soo...why not just SAY that? Why not just say that you haven't paid, and it's because of loopholes that we have, and that maybe you want to close those loopholes. What else is there? That's what stinks so bad about all of this.
Click to expand...

He doesn't have a fiduciary obligation to his voter base.
 
F

FStubbs

Member
ksharp said:
A tax loss carryforward is common. Most wealthy individuals and corporations use it. Even Hillary Clinton of all people

See page 17 of the below PDF; turns out the Clintons did use the same "tax avoidance scheme" Trump used

https://m.hrc.onl/secretary/10-docu...linton_2015_Form_1040_with_Signature_Page.pdf

EDIT: I see someone beat me to the punch earlier on the page. Point still stands. It's a non-issue; however, the mainstream media won't let go
Click to expand...

Hillary isn't running on a platform of "I'm great at business."
 
S

Sky Chief

Member
I feel like in a strange way Trump's candidacy has beena wonderful thing because it had really highlighted a lot of shitty things about the USA that need to be fixed but previously weren't under the microscope. As someone who last year paid a third of my income in federal and state taxes it makes me sick that a billionaire pays nothing.
 
M

massivekettle

Member
Sky Chief said:
I feel like in a strange way Trump's candidacy has beena wonderful thing because it had really highlighted a lot of shitty things about the USA that need to be fixed but previously weren't under the microscope. As someone who last year paid a third of my income in federal and state taxes it makes me sick that a billionaire pays nothing.
Click to expand...

Tax loss carryforward isn't shitty. It's an accepted accounting treatment around the world.
 
W

wumster3000

Member
YuriLowell said:
So the entire platform he is running on is a sham?

Why on earth would anyone consider voting for this clown?
Click to expand...
Because they are afraid of stuff. Something, Something, jobs leaving. Something, Something, law and order. Something, something, be afraid if I'm not elected.

Trump is a horrible person who care for no one that can't do anything for him. Not even whites. He cares about money and nothing else. If you can make him richer, he cares about you. He doesn't give a shit about working class people. Just look at his track record.
 
D

Drek

Member
ksharp said:
Tax loss carryforward isn't shitty. It's an accepted accounting treatment around the world.
Click to expand...

Tax loss carry forward isn't, it's how we allow the wealthy, especially in the real estate business, to manipulate it in such a nebulous way.

Trump is an excellent example of that. If he had personally lost almost $1B of his personal assets in a single year it would have been pretty goddamn noticeable to even casual observers of the NYC real estate scene.

Instead it is far more likely that Trump saddled "sinking ship" business ventures, like his Atlantic City casinos, with mountains of personal debt, debt from other more viable business ventures, etc. and then sunk those ships while transferring the tax loss credit to himself personally, allowing him to effectively not pay taxes on the next $1B he personally earns.

Donald Trump, like his father, employs some of the world's best tax attorneys and accountants. Good for him. But hand waiving this off as a good business practice when he is one of thousands of heirs/heiresses who have contributed nothing to society but use loopholes like this to effectively avoid any tax liability while simultaneously trying to tell everyone else how they're the best and brightest because they've "won" at the capitalist game (when they're all a bunch of born on third and think they hit a triple types) is a failure in the effective implementation of any viable model for capitalism.
 
B

Brandon F

Well congratulations! You got yourself caught!
Drek said:
Tax loss carry forward isn't, it's how we allow the wealthy, especially in the real estate business, to manipulate it in such a nebulous way.

Trump is an excellent example of that. If he had personally lost almost $1B of his personal assets in a single year it would have been pretty goddamn noticeable to even casual observers of the NYC real estate scene.

Instead it is far more likely that Trump saddled "sinking ship" business ventures, like his Atlantic City casinos, with mountains of personal debt, debt from other more viable business ventures, etc. and then sunk those ships while transferring the tax loss credit to himself personally, allowing him to effectively not pay taxes on the next $1B he personally earns.

Donald Trump, like his father, employs some of the world's best tax attorneys and accountants. Good for him. But hand waiving this off as a good business practice when he is one of thousands of heirs/heiresses who have contributed nothing to society but use loopholes like this to effectively avoid any tax liability while simultaneously trying to tell everyone else how they're the best and brightest because they've "won" at the capitalist game (when they're all a bunch of born on third and think they hit a triple types) is a failure in the effective implementation of any viable model for capitalism.
Click to expand...

Was going to post something similar, but this post does the job even better.
 
M

Man Called Aerodynamics

Member
I have mixed feelings about the traction this story is getting. On the one hand, anything to take him down. But after all the overt racism, the violent rhetoric, financial improprieties, and general idiocy, the thing that might finally take him down is something that's strictly legal and above-board but just quote-unquote looks bad in a certain light? That doesn't make me feel good.
 
W

WedgeX

Banned
Drek said:
Tax loss carry forward isn't, it's how we allow the wealthy, especially in the real estate business, to manipulate it in such a nebulous way.

Trump is an excellent example of that. If he had personally lost almost $1B of his personal assets in a single year it would have been pretty goddamn noticeable to even casual observers of the NYC real estate scene.

Instead it is far more likely that Trump saddled "sinking ship" business ventures, like his Atlantic City casinos, with mountains of personal debt, debt from other more viable business ventures, etc. and then sunk those ships while transferring the tax loss credit to himself personally, allowing him to effectively not pay taxes on the next $1B he personally earns.

Donald Trump, like his father, employs some of the world's best tax attorneys and accountants. Good for him. But hand waiving this off as a good business practice when he is one of thousands of heirs/heiresses who have contributed nothing to society but use loopholes like this to effectively avoid any tax liability while simultaneously trying to tell everyone else how they're the best and brightest because they've "won" at the capitalist game (when they're all a bunch of born on third and think they hit a triple types) is a failure in the effective implementation of any viable model for capitalism.
Click to expand...

The New York Times was backing exactly this yesterday.

None of this seems to have made the slightest dent in Mr. Trump’s opulent lifestyle over the years. At the nadir of his personal financial crisis in the early 1990s, his lenders put him on a monthly “budget” of $450,000 in personal expenses — more than enough to sustain his lifestyle of lavish homes, private jets, country clubs and golf courses — even as he was using the tax code to avoid paying any federal income tax.

It’s hard to imagine a starker contrast with the vast number of Americans who struggle to both pay taxes and make ends meet, or a more damning indictment of a tax code that makes that possible.

...

There is also the question of Mr. Trump’s debt. Mr. Trump personally guaranteed $832 million of debt related to his casinos and other assets. Under tax code provisions available to real estate developers, he could take the full amount as a deduction even if he didn’t invest a dime of his own money.

Ordinarily, that deduction would be recaptured when the debt was forgiven or the underlying assets sold. If the debt were forgiven, Mr. Trump would have to report that as income. But there are various exceptions. If Mr. Trump was insolvent at the time — if his debts exceeded his assets — he might have avoided having to report the forgiveness of debt as income. Of course, if that was the case, it further undermines his claims to being an astute businessman.
Click to expand...
 
H

HerbertBirdsfoot

Member
ksharp said:
EDIT: I see someone beat me to the punch earlier on the page. Point still stands. It's a non-issue; however, the mainstream media won't let go
Click to expand...

He wanted to be the first major candidate in recent history not to release returns. They leaked and show he paid nothing. They also highlight his record of business failure.

Failure stories will bait trump into lower self discipline and more erratic and non presidential behavior.

Voters will decide if it's a non-issue. Pretty sure it is an issue.
 
DeviantBoi

DeviantBoi

Member
I love how Harry Reid is trying to trigger him:

“Trump is a billion-dollar loser who won’t release his taxes because they’ll expose him as a spoiled, rich brat who lost the millions he inherited from his father."
Click to expand...
 
G

Garlador

Member
Woke up and the spin is incredible.

Former New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani also called Trump a “genius” for not paying income taxes.
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“This is a guy who, when lots of businesses went out of business in the early 1990s, he fought and clawed back to build another fortune, to create tens of thousands of more jobs,” Mr. Christie said on “Fox News Sunday.”
“This is actually a very, very good story for Donald Trump,” he added.
Click to expand...

Really, can we call a mulligan on this whole party?
 
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