Support NeoGAF

[Team Andromeda]

Part of that was because SOJ prevented STI from getting the tools they needed.



The 3DO was never in Sega's vocabulary, they knew about the Jaguar because Atari shipped some test units there and put out marketing, 3DO didn't do that until alter, and didn't launch until around the time frame of the PSX and Saturn in Japan. If Seg=a saw the 3DO stuff that was coming out they would have still likely have added the 2nd processor to the Saturn given that 3Do was visually similar to the PSX at the time.

As for SOj, yes they made the call and that's the point. You're acting like this was an SOA or STI issue when it wasn't. SOJ even went as far as to introduce the 32X to Japan were it would be useless given the Mega Drive was pretty much done and nothing would have increased adoption of the Sega CD wouldn't given how popular the PCE CD was.

32X also sold much faster than the Sega CD, and it's impossible to deny that Sega rug pulling support prevented it from at least given Sega some extra cash for a cushion when the Sega Saturn started to fail in the west for the reasons I listed before. The 32X had little impact on the Saturns lack of adoptions overall. If any.



Tom did what was approved by SOJ, who also sabotaged Tom not long after than kicked him out after they messed things up.

1) There was no 32X flop yet when the Saturn launched. 32X was beating expectations before the support pull.

2) WTF does the PS3 have to do with the Saturn launch? Not to mention price extremely impacted Sony early on to where they had to drop the price several times to keep sales up while losing more money each time. Sega didn't have that much money to lose, the Saturn launch price was an outlier, the 3DO was already having issues still selling at $500 only $50 more than the original $450, at $400 when almost every competitor outside the 3DO is less, in an industry that didn't have a mass market consoles selling more than $250 yet at that time, (until the Jaguar and PSX) was a big problem especially in the west. Add in many other issues the Saturn or Sega had, and the software problems, you ended up with a fatal combo as we saw. By the time Sega started loosing more and more money with the hardware and software price cuts and made itself a good value vs. PSX and later N64 (in the US) it was too late.

3) You can tell you can't really defend the Saturn or Sega's decisions of the time when you make subjective general audience ignoring comparisons to a later consoles selling under different circumstances.

4) Ok

5) Doesn't make sense to agree with 4 and disagree with 5, given that Sega didn't use their money to fund exclusives or to get more games on their platform timed or otherwise, where as they spend an insane amount of money on projects, many of which would do nothing for the Saturn itself.

6) Ships weren't selling "stock" leftovers as you imply. Sega was Still SELLING the CD after crippling and then eventually discontinuing the 32X.

7) Re-read this point again, I never said Sega never advertised games.



Did you miss the thread when Sony mentioned the studios that will be working on VR, or working in conjunction with others for VR?

Also Horizon Zero Dawn isn't the name of the VR game.

Unless you can back up SOJ being evil and keeping tools away from SEGA America, please don't type that crap. The 3DO was in SEGA's vocabulary and you can bet SEGA were worried given in was a coming Trip and would have EA backing the unit. Tom response to it at the CES show was 'SEGA could release a 32Bit machine tomorrow' if needed. The call from Japan was all about the worry and issue of the Jaguar, that's where the 32X was born and came from. Your point about the Super 32X is utterly silly, Sony brought out a CDi unit in Japan, who really cared about that and that didn't show SONY was all for the CDi

The 32X might have sold well at launch, but that was it . The Vita sold well at launch, big deal. The issue for the 32X was SEGA America and Europe telling the user that 32X users would get a true 32Bit experience and also VHS quality FMV and half the time they were left with games that barely outdid a SNES and where the 3D games were miles behind what the Saturn user and PS user were already enjoying and they knew they had been conned and dropped SEGA and the 32X.

1) The 32X was dead on its feet by May 1995 .

2) A lot. The PS3 was a system that was vastly more expensive to buy and also vastly harder to develop on, than the composition (all reasons used to bash Saturn) and yet when on to sell over 70 million units

3) The Japanese PS2 launch lineup other than RRV wasn't that great and it really took until SH2 and ICO almost a year after the PS2 launch in Japan for the PS2 to not only have quality games, but other graphics beyond the DC. Take it from someone who imported the system at the time. Not that the USA or Pal launches were much better, still we could play DVD right...

5) When you are making a game or designing a system you don't know what will work or what will sell a lot of it is risk.

6) Overlooking that blows apart the crap some like to say about SEGA Japan killing off the Mega Drive early with SEGA still manufacturing Mega Drive and Mega CD into 1998.
Shops selling old stock or games for systems at their death was common practice. I could buy CDi and 3DO games long after systems were killed. The only major was that was different was the Neo Geo Pocket where all stock was cleared when SNK pulled out.

7) You did and I can give plenty of examples where SEGA did try and advertise the Saturn and its games

Did you miss the thread when Sony mentioned the studios that will be working on VR

Did you miss the part, where I asked you to name me one? The fact you even name a major In-House AAA game from SONY on the VR2 is telling and spare us with the pedantic crap. You know full well that Horzion isn't being made in-house and is outsorced for the PS5 VR.

 

[Ozzie666]

32X also sold much faster than the Sega CD, and it's impossible to deny that Sega rug pulling support prevented it from at least given Sega some extra cash for a cushion when the Sega Saturn started to fail in the west for the reasons I listed before. The 32X had little impact on the Saturns lack of adoptions overall. If any.

When the 32X launched it indeed had a great opening window for all of what 5-6 weeks and it did have an initial boom compared to Sega CD., on the back of Star Wars and VR Racing. That is really the only thing you got right in the above part of your post. Media turned against it pretty quickly.

It was pretty much dying early 1995 and as another poster stated after E3 and May 1995, the thing was a flop already. Developers were cancelling games, units were being returned, the draught was in full swing, and people felt burnt. It wouldn't have mattered if Sega increased support, the industry and third-party developers had spoken, and Saturn was the future (not really). I did enjoy my 32X throughout 1995, some of the best versions of Midway games and Primal Rage.

I'm not sure what world you live in where you think the 32X didn't directly impact the poor adoption rate and success of the Saturn early on in USA. It was a big part of a growing problem of many small parts that impacted Saturn and Sega in 1995. Damage was done and compounded after that by the success of the competition. It was definitely part of the microcosm.

Never mind the limited released after E3 and the draught that followed for many months for Saturn and 32X. Never mind the gaming magazines called the 32X a stop gap, early on Product confusion (yes it happened) on shelves, Sega CD and split resources including the 32X had a significant impact to the growing problem. Resources taken away from Saturn development, tools and library. Undercooked.

Let's not even discuss how the 32X launched almost 2 weeks after the pride and joy Saturn in Japan. Released in Europe in early 1995 sold well then died quickly.

Even you can't be this stubborn. I wish all of Sega Base and Eidolon's inn was still fully viewable, best Sega write-ups I've ever read. I can only find partial pages, but the detail is amazing.

Just to summarize, the 32X debacle is part of the plethora of reasons the gaming audience washed their hands of the Saturn. It did have an impact on consumer and developer confidence.

 

[cartman414]

Even with the Dreamcast they bungled things a bit. The controller lacking in ergonomics (d-pad, cord sticking out of bottom, and overall form) or versatility (for either 3d analog or arcade due to lacking buttons), the gap between regional releases creating a massive dead space in the west, insisting on a $199 price tag making profits hard.

Apparently Saturn always was going to be multi processor (their arcade units already did this). Too bad they made the wrong call on triangles vs. quads.

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

Unless you can back up SOJ being evil and keeping tools away from SEGA America, please don't type that crap.

I think this is obvious just based on the engines the western studios clearly didn't have access too. Of those that were left during the Saturn anyway.

The 3DO was in SEGA's vocabulary and you can bet SEGA were worried given in was a coming Trip and would have EA backing the unit. Tom response to it at the CES show was 'SEGA could release a 32Bit machine tomorrow' if needed. The call from Japan was all about the worry and issue of the Jaguar,

We got multiple accounts of Jaguar being mentioned for the 32X, not the 3DO. The 32X was likely already being designed when they found out about the 3DO later. If they knew about the 3DO they wouldn't have though the Saturn as it was, was enough and would have added hardware for the same reason they did for Sony.

Your point about the Super 32X is utterly silly, Sony brought out a CDi unit in Japan, who really cared about that and that didn't show SONY was all for the CDi

SOJ had no reason to bring over something that you keep trying to act like they had nothing to do with. Despite approving it and the Jaguar being mentioned.

CD-i comparison holds no weight as Sony did support it and the CD-i was hyped by various companies. Sony didn't know that the format and the devices were going to flop as they did compared to VHS and other media until later. CD-i isn't a gaming console either.

The 32X might have sold well at launch, but that was it . The Vita sold well at launch, big deal.

It sold well a bit after launch too, and why did it start slowing down and then rapidly lost steam and started losing support? Because Sega already had started pulling support quickly. For some reason this isn't getting through to you.

1) The 32X was dead on its feet by May 1995 .

2) A lot. The PS3 was a system that was vastly more expensive to buy and also vastly harder to develop on, than the composition (all reasons used to bash Saturn) and yet when on to sell over 70 million units

3) The Japanese PS2 launch lineup other than RRV wasn't that great and it really took until SH2 and ICO almost a year after the PS2 launch in Japan for the PS2 to not only have quality games, but other graphics beyond the DC. Take it from someone who imported the system at the time. Not that the USA or Pal launches were much better, still we could play DVD right...

5) When you are making a game or designing a system you don't know what will work or what will sell a lot of it is risk.

6) Overlooking that blows apart the crap some like to say about SEGA Japan killing off the Mega Drive early with SEGA still manufacturing Mega Drive and Mega CD into 1998.
Shops selling old stock or games for systems at their death was common practice. I could buy CDi and 3DO games long after systems were killed. The only major was that was different was the Neo Geo Pocket where all stock was cleared when SNK pulled out.

7) You did and I can give plenty of examples where SEGA did try and advertise the Saturn and its games

1) Because Sega pulled support, games, marketing, distribution etc.

2) After multiple price cuts and losing money It didn't sell 70 million consoles at $599 are you ok?

3) Irrelevant, PS2 was selling under different circumstances, and it had the games the general public wanted to play (not you), you're odd comparisons with unrelated consoles going through different situations continues to not make a lick of sense, and now you're including your personal preference to what the market wanted which makes even less sense since we are talking about sales. Sega's made numerous mistakes that led to the Saturn to fail, and whether the 32X was there or not all of those other reasons would still exist, which was the point.

5) What part of "mostly nothing to do with the Saturn itself" is confusing?

6) That's nice, except SEGA (not shops with excess inventory) were STILL SELLING the Sega CD during the gimping and discontinuation of the 32X. Can't make this clearer.

7) No i didn't, you clearly are having problems reading the context of what I wrote, I even made a direct comparison and SAID that they advertised a game, it was how they marketed it, and how they associated it with the Saturn (or failed to do so) that was the problem.

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

When the 32X launched it indeed had a great opening window for all of what 5-6 weeks and it did have an initial boom compared to Sega CD., on the back of Star Wars and VR Racing. That is really the only thing you got right in the above part of your post. Media turned against it pretty quickly.

It was pretty much dying early 1995 and as another poster stated after E3 and May 1995, the thing was a flop already. Developers were cancelling games, units were being returned, the draught was in full swing, and people felt burnt. It wouldn't have mattered if Sega increased support, the industry and third-party developers had spoken, and Saturn was the future (not really). I did enjoy my 32X throughout 1995, some of the best versions of Midway games and Primal Rage.

I'm not sure what world you live in where you think the 32X didn't directly impact the poor adoption rate and success of the Saturn early on in USA. It was a big part of a growing problem of many small parts that impacted Saturn and Sega in 1995. Damage was done and compounded after that by the success of the competition. It was definitely part of the microcosm.

Never mind the limited released after E3 and the draught that followed for many months for Saturn and 32X. Never mind the gaming magazines called the 32X a stop gap, early on Product confusion (yes it happened) on shelves, Sega CD and split resources including the 32X had a significant impact to the growing problem. Resources taken away from Saturn development, tools and library. Undercooked.

Let's not even discuss how the 32X launched almost 2 weeks after the pride and joy Saturn in Japan. Released in Europe in early 1995 sold well then died quickly.

Even you can't be this stubborn. I wish all of Sega Base and Eidolon's inn was still fully viewable, best Sega write-ups I've ever read. I can only find partial pages, but the detail is amazing.

Just to summarize, the 32X debacle is part of the plethora of reasons the gaming audience washed their hands of the Saturn. It did have an impact on consumer and developer confidence.

It went into early 95 with momentum and than already Sega started pulling support for marketing the machine, the distribution was low (some couldn't find it) and there was little push for press coverage at that point They also made it difficult to find newer releases, and things got worse and worse until they abruptly pulled it which is one of the reason why Sega was grilled for the 32X in the first place.

Meanwhile they kept supporting the Sega CD, and a dying handheld. Sega wasn't reaching out to developers, they weren't taking support seriously, of course the developers were cancelling games.

You're trying to make it like the system was dead from the start, it was the system generating interest for why devs were about to support the add-on in the first place, they quit because Sega wasn't committed, and commitment to hardware was exactly what was going around at the time. Sega didn't release a system and then people just abandoned it out of thin air.

I also never said the 32X never had any impact, but all the reasons I listed were astronomically more important to the Saturns failure posts up, and ALL of them would have still happened if the 32X didn't exist. The problem is you are falsely apply too much impact to the 32X for the Saturn launch ignoring all the other reason why even later on after some bumps that people still did not find the Saturn appealing enough to buy.

Several things you refer to about coverage of the Saturn and 32X came AFTER the rug pull and close to or after the discontinuation. Proving my point entirely that 32X failure and the reception it got damaging the companies perception could have been mitigated to a degree. But to act like that was a major issue to Saturn adoption is just nonsense given how close in the US the PSX and Saturn were going into 1996. Which you will of course as many people, will dodge to push the 32X narrative. It had impact but nowhere close to what people keep saying. As for Europe late launch again of course it quickly died, there was a rug pull in effort to push the thing and no sign of commitment. I doubt Sega even shipped many there.

The failure of the Saturn was due primarily, to different factors entirely, which I will list again and nothing will change regardless of the existence of the 32X:

1. Random surprise retail launch
2. SOJ adding hardware late raising the price to $450, which they got down to $400 but it was still higher than any other consoles available at launch except the 3DO which could be gotten for the same price at some retailers. Then reacted to the PS1 price when sales started sliding and started losing money.
3. Not having any software in its first year to get Genesis owners to migrate over. While the gap between the PSX and Saturn unit sales in the US wasn't that bad from launch until May 1996 when things started changing, Saturns software sales were terrible.
4. Look at all of the things in the OP Sega was doing through the first 6 months of 1996. They were spending their budget and spreading themselves thin in resources more and more with all those poor decisions than anything the 32X caused, not to mention the Netlink gamble, the push for games on portable, and the push for PC development.
5. Sega was using funds on gambles, poorly researched projects, acquisitions, and collabs, many of which failed or produced little benefit to Sega, Instead of using those funds to buy exclusives/timed exclusives, or convincing devs to release their games on Saturn only or first, which would have been beneficial.
6. Rug pulling 32x burning bridges with gamers and retailers who were selling 32X's, but still kept on selling the dead Sega CD.
7. Never marketing games as the face of the Saturn. Sony had Crash bandicoot, Tomb Raider, and later GT as major games that were iconic to the PlayStation as if they were mascots or the reason to buy the platform even if one of those was also on 3 other platforms. For the Japanese market they also had FF7. Sega didn't even give that same treatment for Nights, they marketed it but not long-enough or big enough for people to say "I'm going to buy a console for it" this created a lack of identity for the console. Sega didn't want to sell consumers an identity with the Saturn, they wanted to sell consumers the brand alone. The opposite of what SOA did with the Genesis that made it a success.

 

[cartman414]

Wasn't the 32X impractical for cannibalizing parts needed for Saturn units as well?

 

[Team Andromeda]

I think this is obvious just based on the engines the western studios clearly didn't have access too. Of those that were left during the Saturn anyway.



We got multiple accounts of Jaguar being mentioned for the 32X, not the 3DO. The 32X was likely already being designed when they found out about the 3DO later. If they knew about the 3DO they wouldn't have though the Saturn as it was, was enough and would have added hardware for the same reason they did for Sony.



SOJ had no reason to bring over something that you keep trying to act like they had nothing to do with. Despite approving it and the Jaguar being mentioned.

CD-i comparison holds no weight as Sony did support it and the CD-i was hyped by various companies. Sony didn't know that the format and the devices were going to flop as they did compared to VHS and other media until later. CD-i isn't a gaming console either.



It sold well a bit after launch too, and why did it start slowing down and then rapidly lost steam and started losing support? Because Sega already had started pulling support quickly. For some reason this isn't getting through to you.



1) Because Sega pulled support, games, marketing, distribution etc.

2) After multiple price cuts and losing money It didn't sell 70 million consoles at $599 are you ok?

3) Irrelevant, PS2 was selling under different circumstances, and it had the games the general public wanted to play (not you), you're odd comparisons with unrelated consoles going through different situations continues to not make a lick of sense, and now you're including your personal preference to what the market wanted which makes even less sense since we are talking about sales. Sega's made numerous mistakes that led to the Saturn to fail, and whether the 32X was there or not all of those other reasons would still exist, which was the point.

5) What part of "mostly nothing to do with the Saturn itself" is confusing?

6) That's nice, except SEGA (not shops with excess inventory) were STILL SELLING the Sega CD during the gimping and discontinuation of the 32X. Can't make this clearer.

7) No i didn't, you clearly are having problems reading the context of what I wrote, I even made a direct comparison and SAID that they advertised a game, it was how they marketed it, and how they associated it with the Saturn (or failed to do so) that was the problem.

So you are doing your trademark and obvious trolling. Unless you can prove (with more than one source) that SOJ hid tech and tools away from SEGA America, please don't type that crap.
Take the time to read interviews with both Joe Miller or Scott Bayless and learn the phone from Japan was to counter the Jaguar.

The PS3 sold out in both its UK and USA launch with the PS3 launch in the UK being one of the biggest ever (at that time) those of us who got a PS2 on its Japanese launch would know its launch line up was dire and it took nearly a good year, before we started to see top quality software, even the Saturn 1st year was much better and like the Saturn, the PS2 was a system difficult to program for and cost more than its rival console Ect.

Shops always sell old stock, I very much doubt any major retailer in 1995/6 was looking to sell the Mega CD as a going concern much less give its games much self-space. I could buy Saturn games and hardware at GAME in 2002, please don't tell me that was proof SEGA was still pushing the format.

And like other's have found out, you like to say a lot but can never back it up. I'm still waiting for you to name one major In-House AAA title from SONY coming to the PSVR2

 

[RAIDEN1]

Wasn't the 32X impractical for cannibalizing parts needed for Saturn units as well?

The 32x was pretty much the mushroom cloud that imploded Sega as a hardware player.....just think how much money they invested in that project only for it to not last as half as long as the Sega CD...

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

So you are doing your trademark and obvious trolling. Unless you can prove (with more than one source) that SOJ hid tech and tools away from SEGA America, please don't type that crap.

I never said SOJ hud anything, you keep bring that up because your overall argument falls apart without it. SOJ did not support SOA this is obvious, the way they should have. They could have worked with the western teams more and this is obvious. You are adding the "hide" term to try to make up a conspiracy.

Take the time to read interviews with both Joe Miller or Scott Bayless and learn the phone from Japan was to counter the Jaguar. PSVR2

You're memory of your own posts is also failing you. I'm the one that brought up the Jaguar, you were arguing they were also responding to the 3DO with the 32X which is unlikely and there's no evidence for it. As the 3Do would have had visuals similar to the PSX which caused Sega to add hardware to the Saturn, which they DID NOT do when they saw the Jaguar demos.

The PS3 sold out in both its UK and USA launch with the PS3 launch in the UK being one of the biggest ever (at that time)

This has nothing to do with the Saturns longevity in sales, I already said in the last post that the Saturn was close to the PSX going into 1996. You're argument is inconsistent.

those of us who got a PS2 on its Japanese launch would know its launch line up was dire and it took nearly a good year, before we started to see top quality software, even the Saturn 1st year was much better

Has nothing to do with the view of the general public, you're using your personal opinion to bring up an unrelated console to Saturn discussion.

Shops always sell old stock, I very much doubt any major retailer in 1995/6 was looking to sell the Mega CD

Sega was still producing them and marketing it for sales, this is the part you haven't comprehended yet once. It was officially discontinued late, it takes very little effort to look this up.

And like other's have found out, you like to say a lot but can never back it up. I'm still waiting for you to name one major In-House AAA title from SONY coming to the PSVR2

I said Sony "seems" to be "attempting" to work on that I never said that Sony HAD a major in-house game coming to PSVR2. Just more made up spin. That's why I didn't answer you directly last time, you're just making up crap as you go.

Your whole argument has zero value. You're in a thread way over your head with nonsensical unrelated comparisons with a bunch of documented proof in the OP about Sega mistakes and the massive amount of money lost and haven't posted jack shit backing up anything you said.

The 32x was pretty much the mushroom cloud that imploded Sega as a hardware player.....just think how much money they invested in that project only for it to not last as half as long as the Sega CD...

They are the ones that killed the 32X before it could prove itself, I have no idea how people keep getting this wrong. Sega didn't just throw the 32X out there with massive support and then it died, it was sent out, and then support was reduced and so was the retailer push and as consequence, retailer interest.

Sega was losing enough money without the 32X which impacted the Saturn as shown in the OP. Add in the Netlink gamble (which they did again better and more costly with the Dreamcast for the same idea which was dumb in hindsight) and even of SOA and SOJ joined hand Sega was still doomed. 32X has some but not much impact on the Saturn, and how much money Sega could have put behind it and software for it.

 

[RAIDEN1]

I never said SOJ hud anything, you keep bring that up because your overall argument falls apart without it. SOJ did not support SOA this is obvious, the way they should have. They could have worked with the western teams more and this is obvious. You are adding the "hide" term to try to make up a conspiracy.



You're memory of your own posts is also failing you. I'm the one that brought up the Jaguar, you were arguing they were also responding to the 3DO with the 32X which is unlikely and there's no evidence for it. As the 3Do would have had visuals similar to the PSX which caused Sega to add hardware to the Saturn, which they DID NOT do when they saw the Jaguar demos.



This has nothing to do with the Saturns longevity in sales, I already said in the last post that the Saturn was close to the PSX going into 1996. You're argument is inconsistent.



Has nothing to do with the view of the general public, you're using your personal opinion to bring up an unrelated console to Saturn discussion.



Sega was still producing them and marketing it for sales, this is the part you haven't comprehended yet once. It was officially discontinued late, it takes very little effort to look this up.



I said Sony "seems" to be "attempting" to work on that I never said that Sony HAD a major in-house game coming to PSVR2. Just more made up spin. That's why I didn't answer you directly last time, you're just making up crap as you go.

Your whole argument has zero value. You're in a thread way over your head with nonsensical unrelated comparisons with a bunch of documented proof in the OP about Sega mistakes and the massive amount of money lost and haven't posted jack shit backing up anything you said.



They are the ones that killed the 32X before it could prove itself, I have no idea how people keep getting this wrong. Sega didn't just throw the 32X out there with massive support and then it died, it was sent out, and then support was reduced and so was the retailer push and as consequence, retailer interest.

Sega was losing enough money without the 32X which impacted the Saturn as shown in the OP. Add in the Netlink gamble (which they did again better and more costly with the Dreamcast for the same idea which was dumb in hindsight) and even of SOA and SOJ joined hand Sega was still doomed. 32X has some but not much impact on the Saturn, and how much money Sega could have put behind it and software for it.

Yeah but when it comes to the next generation you had to be ALL in, no point in having two 32 bit systems in the market at the same time and for what? Just to give the Genesis some more shelf-life.....Sega should have learned its lesson that add-ons don't perform successfully, and should have taken a clean break from the Genesis in total circa 1993 and concentrate all arms on developing the Saturn in being the best in the business...

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

Sega due to mismanaging European operations took a $340 loss in Jan 1996, a $40 million fiscal loss, 45 million euros (in 1996) to open park, $253 million loss, and a US $215 million US loss (including $61 million in unsold Genesis inventory). That's already around $1billion in losses righ there.

Now add Gameworks nonsense that didn't play out for anyone involved, Sega Pladium park/arcades that didn't take off and lost money, the Model 3 arcade machine, The Nomad portable which failed, the PICO and the bus tour, the increase in costs to shift to bringing Sega games to PC, Sega world theme park, losses in general, the two restructurings Sega had for the company and SOA, cutting their affordable ad partner, the Compaq partnership, two Saturn price cuts in the same month followed by game price cuts, investing tons of cash in a massive customer service game hint phone hotline thing, and there shares being halted.

Finally the long and heavily invested in "differentiator" to put the Saturn ahead: Netlink. Which didn't gain traction and ended up falling short. Who knows how much they lost on that.

We are looking at over $2 billion to up to $3 billion or MORE in lost cash just in 1996, not to mention many of these ideas continued into 1997 before being pulled so those add to losses, and their failures or ideas that didn't take off lost money or did nothing for Sega at all. Remember Sega launched the Dreamcast with financial help because they didn't have the resources to launch it. So 1996 when they started as the a worldwide contender and the number one console brand in the US (and Europe) it ended up in last place in the deep red starting with 1996, and that's not including what they lost in 1995 or 1997.

So when people act like the 32X had "large" impact on Sega as a whole or even the Saturn I just find that funny because nothing would change of the 32X wasn't there.

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

Yeah but when it comes to the next generation you had to be ALL in, no point in having two 32 bit systems in the market at the same time and for what? Just to give the Genesis some more shelf-life.....Sega should have learned its lesson that add-ons don't perform successfully, and should have taken a clean break from the Genesis in total circa 1993 and concentrate all arms on developing the Saturn in being the best in the business...

Considering Sega lost $61 million in unsold Genesis inventory just in the US, I think that the longer shelf-life idea was actually logical. But Sega hurt it too early and then let it die which made the whole thing pointless.

It's clear Sega mismanaged the longetivity of the genesis despite continuing to try and sell it (and the CD) longer than it should have Once it became clear stuff like Vectorman wasn't moving the hardware anymore they should have quit the Saturn.

But i would argue Netlink was a much bigger problem for the Saturn than then failing to keep the Genesis alive. They spend way too much money, resources, and marketing on the thing as a way to sell Saturns which didn't happen. They could have used that money for timed exclusives, exclusives, better marketing for the consoles and games, and to improve their internal development and possibly have a connection between their console and arcade divisions. You can say the same for their theme park, their arcade park, their large venture for entertainment centers with other companies, PICO, NOMAD, trying to save the dead gear, and other bad decisions outside of consoles.

The company was sadly, just poorly run.

 

[RAIDEN1]

Considering Sega lost $61 million in unsold Genesis inventory just in the US, I think that the longer shelf-life idea was actually logical. But Sega hurt it too early and then let it die which made the whole thing pointless.

It's clear Sega mismanaged the longetivity of the genesis despite continuing to try and sell it (and the CD) longer than it should have Once it became clear stuff like Vectorman wasn't moving the hardware anymore they should have quit the Saturn.

But i would argue Netlink was a much bigger problem for the Saturn than then failing to keep the Genesis alive. They spend way too much money, resources, and marketing on the thing as a way to sell Saturns which didn't happen. They could have used that money for timed exclusives, exclusives, better marketing for the consoles and games, and to improve their internal development and possibly have a connection between their console and arcade divisions. You can say the same for their theme park, their arcade park, their large venture for entertainment centers with other companies, PICO, NOMAD, trying to save the dead gear, and other bad decisions outside of consoles.

The company was sadly, just poorly run.

They are lucky to be alive today, in some form at least, otherwise they could have easily ended up the same as Atari, 3DO and Commodore to name but a few..

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

They are lucky to be alive today, in some form at least, otherwise they could have easily ended up the same as Atari, 3DO and Commodore to name but a few..

3DO survived specifically because they left the console market knowing there was no way they could continue. However outside a few early PC hits they weren't able to make enough to last longer than iirc 2003. Atari and Commodore are brand names passing hand now unfortunately.

But Sega avoided that fate. If the wrong people were in charge of the company they would have likely went down with the ship but the people who pushed to leave the market saved Segas hide, and then the deal with Sammy gave them a restructure that has benefitted them long-term.

They were losing an astronomical amount of money really fast. If they didn't have financial help to launch the Dreamcast and launched it themselves, that may have been the end. The only thing that suffered post going third-party was Sonic.

 

[Team Andromeda]

I never said SOJ hud anything, you keep bring that up because your overall argument falls apart without it. SOJ did not support SOA this is obvious, the way they should have. They could have worked with the western teams more and this is obvious. You are adding the "hide" term to try to make up a conspiracy.



You're memory of your own posts is also failing you. I'm the one that brought up the Jaguar, you were arguing they were also responding to the 3DO with the 32X which is unlikely and there's no evidence for it. As the 3Do would have had visuals similar to the PSX which caused Sega to add hardware to the Saturn, which they DID NOT do when they saw the Jaguar demos.



This has nothing to do with the Saturns longevity in sales, I already said in the last post that the Saturn was close to the PSX going into 1996. You're argument is inconsistent.



Has nothing to do with the view of the general public, you're using your personal opinion to bring up an unrelated console to Saturn discussion.



Sega was still producing them and marketing it for sales, this is the part you haven't comprehended yet once. It was officially discontinued late, it takes very little effort to look this up.



I said Sony "seems" to be "attempting" to work on that I never said that Sony HAD a major in-house game coming to PSVR2. Just more made up spin. That's why I didn't answer you directly last time, you're just making up crap as you go.

Your whole argument has zero value. You're in a thread way over your head with nonsensical unrelated comparisons with a bunch of documented proof in the OP about Sega mistakes and the massive amount of money lost and haven't posted jack shit backing up anything you said.



They are the ones that killed the 32X before it could prove itself, I have no idea how people keep getting this wrong. Sega didn't just throw the 32X out there with massive support and then it died, it was sent out, and then support was reduced and so was the retailer push and as consequence, retailer interest.

Sega was losing enough money without the 32X which impacted the Saturn as shown in the OP. Add in the Netlink gamble (which they did again better and more costly with the Dreamcast for the same idea which was dumb in hindsight) and even of SOA and SOJ joined hand Sega was still doomed. 32X has some but not much impact on the Saturn, and how much money Sega could have put behind it and software for it.

So like usual you say a lot but can't back it up with facts and look to divert what you originally said

I'm done here

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

So like usual you say a lot but can't back it up with facts and look to divert what you originally said

I'm done here

No, you can't back up you're not lying about what I originally said, and couldn't answer the other points like a coward and skipped them entirely.

Here is the post you didn't read you keep spinning:

It seems Sony is attempting to change that with the PSVR2 however, we will see how well and long that goes.

It's ok you screwed up and tried to lie your way out. Didn't work, you messed up, it happens. Ironically you are the one actually "hiding" eh.

 

[RAIDEN1]

3DO survived specifically because they left the console market knowing there was no way they could continue. However outside a few early PC hits they weren't able to make enough to last longer than iirc 2003. Atari and Commodore are brand names passing hand now unfortunately.

But Sega avoided that fate. If the wrong people were in charge of the company they would have likely went down with the ship but the people who pushed to leave the market saved Segas hide, and then the deal with Sammy gave them a restructure that has benefitted them long-term.

They were losing an astronomical amount of money really fast. If they didn't have financial help to launch the Dreamcast and launched it themselves, that may have been the end. The only thing that suffered post going third-party was Sonic.

There's that and then apparently one of the "elders" (for want of a better name) within the Sega group before he died he donated a vast amount of money to the company which also helped significantly to help keep them afloat..

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

There's that and then apparently one of the "elders" (for want of a better name) within the Sega group before he died he donated a vast amount of money to the company which also helped significantly to help keep them afloat..

That and one of the connections a head put in to launch the Dreamcast who stuck around when it was discontinued is why we had a DC, and why Sega is still around as well along with what you said.

It really shows how fast Sega crashed and burned with spending and loss leading "see if it sticks to the wall" ideas between 1996-1997 when they were already in the hole and wouldn't have been able to launch the Dreamcast under normal conditions in 1998.

The cost sheet most have looked horrifying in late 2000/early 2001 to the guys in charge.

Granted, I'm happy we still got a Dreamcast, but at the same time I feel like they wasted so much money on pico, nomad, gg, parks, arcade parks, entertainment centers, busses, and for the Saturn, Netlink, that I feel like we never really has enough time with the Saturn. It felt like the 3DO part 2 with how it didn't last long enough (in the west) to really see where it could go. Dreamcast was rumored about 1.5 years in, and rumored by insiders 2 and some months in.

 

[RAIDEN1]

That and one of the connections a head put in to launch the Dreamcast who stuck around when it was discontinued is why we had a DC, and why Sega is still around as well along with what you said.

It really shows how fast Sega crashed and burned with spending and loss leading "see if it sticks to the wall" ideas between 1996-1997 when they were already in the hole and wouldn't have been able to launch the Dreamcast under normal conditions in 1998.

The cost sheet most have looked horrifying in late 2000/early 2001 to the guys in charge.

Granted, I'm happy we still got a Dreamcast, but at the same time I feel like they wasted so much money on pico, nomad, gg, parks, arcade parks, entertainment centers, busses, and for the Saturn, Netlink, that I feel like we never really has enough time with the Saturn. It felt like the 3DO part 2 with how it didn't last long enough (in the west) to really see where it could go. Dreamcast was rumored about 1.5 years in, and rumored by insiders 2 and some months in.

Well the late Bernie Stolar didn't help when he said the Saturn isn't our future, also the fact that Sega were panic stricken when they got wind of the Atari Jaguar, I mean c'mon really? This is Atari we are talking about.....they were 2nd rate in the 90s before the Jag....(The Amiga and Gameboy can tell you that..) I mean did the Sega engineers even bother looking at what was under the hood of the Jag? They had the Saturn coming out which would have wiped the floor with the Jag, but no....we NEED the 32x otherwise the Jaguar will overwhelm us!

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

Well the late Bernie Stolar didn't help when he said the Saturn isn't our future, also the fact that Sega were panic stricken when they got wind of the Atari Jaguar, I mean c'mon really? This is Atari we are talking about....

Atari had only recently canned their 2600, with a well but not as high selling 7800, had a well received and profitable handheld (that they killed for the Jaguar) and was known as a big player in computers. They managed to get the on paper specs they did for a reasonable launch price of only $250 with tech that people didn't think was possible at the time (got to remember all the new tech advances and the rapid price drops for corporations to adopt them was a big thing in the 90's and always came out of nowhere) so it made sense why Sega was spooked by Atari. When you simplify what happened and make it seem like Atari was nothing at the time it's easy to scratch your head as to why, but when you look at the context it made sense why Sega was concerned.

After all, the Jaguar was stronger than their model 1 arcade machine and were going to sell at $250.

they were 2nd rate in the 90s before the Jag....(The Amiga and Gameboy can tell you that..)

Atari was a big player in Europe initially for the ST and then they ended up falling off because of how they handled the game releases and relations with developers. But they were still relevant. Even then Amiga in Europe wasn't really that strong as people think.

In the US both ST and Amiga weren't getting anywhere but the ST had some initial advantage being a low cost productivity computer that also could play games while the Amiga was written off as a non-serious device from the start.

Lynx didn't beat the Gameboy (neither did the Game Gear) but they had good game releases, good tech, and still sold a few million handhelds. it was a well-received device that only added to the hype people fell for with the jaguar.

Atari fooling people with their PR covering up their financial situation showing off demos of this powerful hardware in late 92/early 93 with more power than Sega's Model 1 arcade and several 3D hardware features even the Saturn and PSX didn't have or do as well for only $250 was rightfully a cause for alarm. Sega just reacted poorly.

Sega engineers even bother looking at what was under the hood of the Jag?

They did, I don't think you get how ahead the jaguar "seemed" at the time during those demos and teasers. First 64-bit console with arcade ready 3D, advanced effects, heavy gouraud shading, Z-buffer, two parallel riscs, modern rendering and calculations, polygon and sprite scaling. It wasn't obvious that the hardware was screwed up until later when the games got delayed and the performance issues became apparent, and people started comparing games to the 3DO, PSX, and Saturn later. Also how many different companies Atari had managing the hardware and software tools, and how low on money they really were, they didn't even have enough money to stock retailers with consoles. None of that was known beforehand, only AFTER.

They had the Saturn coming out which would have wiped the floor with the Jag, but no....we NEED the 32x otherwise the Jaguar will overwhelm us!

I think the issue is that the Saturn may not had been stronger than the Jaguar until after they added hardware to improve their 3D against PSX and 3DO, and as a result that caused a delay that they (mostly SOA) wanted to prevent by releasing the 32X. Which itself was a powerful device in someways, but still weaker than the Jaguar even with all the jaguars hardwares flaws.

Based on What Sega and most people knew at the time before the truth of Ataris situation came out, as well as the poor hardware implementations, they probably DID beleive the Jaguar would be an early problem before they could get their stronger Saturn out on the market, in the west. As Saturn wasn't able to release in the US until sometime in 1995, and if you read the statement from them I posted earlier, Sega intended to release the Saturn earlier but couldn't.

So I do understand why Sega was concerned, I just don't think they made the right reaction.

 

[Daniel Thomas MacInnes]

Checks in…

Checks back out…

Goes back to playing Sega Saturn…

 

[the_master]

Is it next wednesday?

 

[PixelatedBeast]

Say what you guys want, but that Eddie-Griffin guy was putting a lot of effort into his threads and actually had thought provoking discussions, for better or worse. Now thats he's gone, the threads on GAF have taken a big hit. I wonder what got him banned?

 

[Crayon]

Say what you guys want, but that Eddie-Griffin guy was putting a lot of effort into his threads and actually had thought provoking discussions, for better or worse. Now thats he's gone, the threads on GAF have taken a big hit. I wonder what got him banned?

I was just gonna say this was the best Eddie thread. Sad to say though this is the only good one I ever caught. There must have been more.

He got banned a few times because he would post a thread like this that was somewhat provocative and then get too heated arguing with people who disagreed.

Towards the end he was just spamming VR -especially psvr2- is doomed threads and it was getting kind of ridiculous. More threads like this would have been welcome if he was able to keep his cool.

 

[Sleepwalker]

Say what you guys want, but that Eddie-Griffin guy was putting a lot of effort into his threads and actually had thought provoking discussions, for better or worse. Now thats he's gone, the threads on GAF have taken a big hit. I wonder what got him banned?

He decided to start a crusade against VR (specially PSVR2) and ended up shitting up a bunch of threads. He also had that one thread where he almost went to fists discussing some retro games, I think it might've been Mario related but idr.

 

[AREYOUOKAY?]

The fact he had / has multiple alt accounts might have something to do with it. You could almost instantly tell it's the same guy.

 

[ZoukGalaxy]

Say what you guys want, but that Eddie-Griffin guy was putting a lot of effort into his threads and actually had thought provoking discussions, for better or worse. Now thats he's gone, the threads on GAF have taken a big hit. I wonder what got him banned?

He gone totally insane and mad with these mass quantity atrocious VR threads and these alt accounts, efforts does not mean necessarily than you make something of quality, he's a living proof of this fact. At best these threads were mediocre and totally biased. At the end, it was totally boring to see his threads always popping with clickbait title.
Most of them were unnecessary provocative, controversial, he was always on the edge of a blade on purpose and finally the blade won.

On purpose

 

[JC 1080P CRT]

Checks in…

Checks back out…

Goes back to playing Sega Saturn…

This is me now, but months after OP was banned and this thread was relevant.

 

[PixelatedBeast]

He gone totally insane and mad with these mass quantity atrocious VR threads and these alt accounts, efforts does not mean necessarily than you make something of quality, he's a living proof of this fact. At best these threads were mediocre and totally biased. At the end, it was totally boring to see his threads always popping with clickbait title.
Most of them were unnecessary provocative, controversial, he was always on the edge of a blade on purpose and finally the blade won.

On purpose

Oh, okay. I forgot he was spamming VR threads. I guess the alt account is what got him booted.

 

[Scotty W]

He decided to start a crusade against VR (specially PSVR2) and ended up shitting up a bunch of threads. He also had that one thread where he almost went to fists discussing some retro games, I think it might've been Mario related but idr.

In all probability he was an Xbot. This thread was just him flexing using his training materials.

 

[Crayon]

In all probability he was an Xbot. This thread was just him flexing using his training materials.

Nah, I don't think it was. Some people are just insane LOL I remember a lot of people thought VFX veteran was a fanboy, but he was just plain nuts.

Besides, and the good green book, Sega was doing fine but Sony killed them so this thread would be blasphemy.

 

[lh032]

The fact he had / has multiple alt accounts might have something to do with it. You could almost instantly tell it's the same guy.

Gigabowser = Eddie confirmed

 

[Freelance Yakuza]

Nah, I don't think it was. Some people are just insane LOL I remember a lot of people thought VFX veteran was a fanboy, but he was just plain nuts.

Besides, and the good green book, Sega was doing fine but Sony killed them so this thread would be blasphemy.

I actually read recently that Sony's moneyhating 3rd party games killed Sega and now they deserve to face a similar fate at the hands of Microsoft.
lol

 

[Crayon]

I actually read recently that Sony's moneyhating 3rd party games killed Sega and now they deserve to face a similar fate at the hands of Microsoft.
lol

Recently like the last 20 years?

 

[Freelance Yakuza]

Recently like the last 20 years?

Last week on era lmao
the user was angry btw

 

[Crayon]

Last week on era lmao
the user was angry btw

It's been non stop for soooooo long now. That's why I liked this thread. PS2 hype killed Dreamcast is the most ridiculous lore. Like oh let's see... Are you saying that ps1 was a phenomenon and Saturn couldn't make it halfway through the gen? Oh and everybody wanted the PS2? How weird. Sorry I'm pretty much permanently annoyed at this point lol.

 

[AREYOUOKAY?]

Gigabowser = Eddie confirmed

Are you saying that ps1 was a phenomenon and Saturn couldn't make it halfway through the gen?

Unfortunately the N64 and Saturn really couldn't do much when Final Fantasy showed up in 97.

I would have brought over the Grandia Saturn port and the other two Shining Force 3 scenarios and print way more copies of Saga. Then again even that wouldn't be enough as a response to FF7 and FF8.

 

[Greggy]

Another "absolve Sony of any sin thread"? No biased selection of articles (you would think nobody said anything positive on Sega past 1996) can convince an independent mid that having ZERO EA Sports, Square Enix, Namco or Eidos titles had nothing to do with the Dreamcast failing. Arm chair business managers who have never run a cafeteria can get on GAF with the luxury of 20 years of hindsight and ridicule a pioneer company but we all know it's way more complicated than that. What Sega faced, Sony is about to start facing and we see how fiercely they're reacting. As "well managed" as they are, they are telling us that they are facing extinction should they not get one title that the Dreamcast never had and that Nintendo doesn't. I hope it adds more context to this one sided drive by on history.

 

[kvltus lvlzvs]

He decided to start a crusade against VR (specially PSVR2) and ended up shitting up a bunch of threads. He also had that one thread where he almost went to fists discussing some retro games, I think it might've been Mario related but idr.

thanks, I was curious about why he got b&, cuz I appreciated his threads.

man, people get real hyped up on vidya forums. the internet is a hell of a drug.