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Obama: Religion is not responsible for terrorism

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See man, this is the crap that annoys the piss out me when it comes to talking with you. You always do this. Always.

because I provide you facts from Quran itself?

here is the only place in the Quran where there is a punishment for apostasy....in hell only

[18:30] And say, ‘It is the truth from your Lord; wherefore let him who will, believe, and let him who will, disbelieve.’ Verily, We have prepared for the wrongdoers a fire whose flaming canopy shall enclose them. And if they cry for help, they will be helped with water like molten lead which will burn the faces. How dreadful the drink, and how evil is the Fire as a resting place!

and this is only for those whose disbelief began increasing after disbelieving without coercion or if they disbelieved unknowingly because they were fed wrong information on Islam.

For a person who becomes an apostate and doesn't believe in Heaven or hell. This does not matter. This is why a Muslim is asked repeatedly to pray for those who are apostates that they be led without force into faith.

There is no death for apostasy.


and another one

[16:83] But if they turn away, then thou art responsible only for the plain delivery of the Message.

and another

[13:41] And whether We make thee see the fulfilment of some of the things with which We threaten them or whether We make thee die, it makes little difference, for on thee lies only the delivery of the Message, and on Us the reckoning.
 

reckless

Member
What is open to interpretation in the links I provided. The Quran clearly has no death for apostasy and in fact discourages any action against apostates and the only examples of death is Hadith which has been invalidated by many scholars. Looking from Muslim perspective given Quran is the word of God and Hadith was written 300 years after death of Holy Prophet by memory, what supercedes what. its common sense. If you remove the hatred from your heart you will see the light. guaranteed

Probably because the Quran states that there will be punishment but doesn't specify what so people go to the hadith.


016.094
YUSUFALI: And take not your oaths, to practise deception between yourselves, with the result that someone's foot may slip after it was firmly planted, and ye may have to taste the evil (consequences) of having hindered (men) from the Path of Allah, and a Mighty Wrath descend on you.

"016.104 YUSUFALI: Those who believe not in the Signs of Allah,- Allah will not guide them, and theirs will be a grievous Penalty. "

016.106
YUSUFALI: Any one who, after accepting faith in Allah, utters Unbelief,- except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in Faith - but such as open their breast to Unbelief, on them is Wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a dreadful Penalty. "

Doesn't seem like freedom to me...
 
because I provide you facts from Quran itself?

Do you even bother reading what quotes are in reference to or do you just disregard it and invent your own reality?

"If you remove the hatred from your heart you will see the light. guaranteed."

To which I replied to, cause it is the same garbage that you continually do. When someone doesn't support your view you toss out some ridiculous remark. Remember the gem from the other thread: You are just mad at God or something similar. Hence the, you always do stuff like this.
 
Probably because the Quran states that there will be punishment but doesn't specify what so people go to the hadith.


016.094
YUSUFALI: And take not your oaths, to practise deception between yourselves, with the result that someone's foot may slip after it was firmly planted, and ye may have to taste the evil (consequences) of having hindered (men) from the Path of Allah, and a Mighty Wrath descend on you.

"016.104 YUSUFALI: Those who believe not in the Signs of Allah,- Allah will not guide them, and theirs will be a grievous Penalty. "

016.106
YUSUFALI: Any one who, after accepting faith in Allah, utters Unbelief,- except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in Faith - but such as open their breast to Unbelief, on them is Wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a dreadful Penalty. "

Doesn't seem like freedom to me...

the punishment is is in 88:22-26. its only in the afterlife not this life. Let me repeat it for you because you are ignoring it from the previous posts

[88:22] Admonish, therefore, for thou art but an admonisher;
[88:23] Thou hast no authority to compel them.
[88:24] But whoever turns away and disbelieves,
[88:25] Allah will punish him with the greatest punishment.
[88:26] Unto Us surely is their return,
[88:27] Then, surely, it is for Us to call them to account.


[13:41] And whether We make thee see the fulfilment of some of the things with which We threaten them or whether We make thee die, it makes little difference, for on thee lies only the delivery of the Message, and on Us the reckoning.


[18:30] And say, ‘It is the truth from your Lord; wherefore let him who will, believe, and let him who will, disbelieve.’ Verily, We have prepared for the wrongdoers a fire whose flaming canopy shall enclose them. And if they cry for help, they will be helped with water like molten lead which will burn the faces. How dreadful the drink, and how evil is the Fire as a resting place!


How many times does the Quran have to repeat the message The Job of Prophets and Muslims is ONLY to convey the message" before you accept that there is no punishment for apostasy.
 

Flo_Evans

Member
Then why are only some Muslims participating in terrorist acts, and not all Muslims? What is different about Muslims living in Syria than Muslims living in Indonesia? If you want to know, the difference is their circumstances and living environment. People living in a war-torn environment where they have no prospects of a stable and safe future are thousands of times more likely to engage in violence or extremism than people living in countries where they can go to work and raise a family in peace.

Even if there was no religion, the people in some of these devastated countries would still have no prospects waiting for them if they tried to live a peaceful life. If you take this pre-existing mass of desperate people with no real hope who are already familiar with violence on a daily basis, and then mix in ambitious and ruthless demagogues who see an opportunity to grab power for themselves, it becomes a volatile concoction that starts to do real harm.

Despair, poverty, base greed, the desire for power, mistrust, resentment at distant powers that one feels are responsible for their lot in life. These are the ingredients of political violence. They are as old as human civilization, and have been true for every place on earth and every people. Islamic fundamentalism is just a convenient flag for these forces to rally around, but that flag could have been replaced by anything.

Groups like ISIS are just the most modern incarnation of an ancient socio-politcial force called warlordism. In times of chaos, those who are the most brutal rule. You can look at any point of history and find examples, from around the world. The things these groups are terrifying, but they are not unfamiliar or strange. And the forces that motivate these atrocities are clear: poverty and chaos.

If you want religious people to stop killing others in the name or their religion, you just need to give them stability, safety, and a chance to make a decent living. Once people have peace, they won't want to risk losing it by engaging in violence.

ISIS does not want peace. ISIS wants to bring about the apocalypse.

If your theory about poverty being the cause how do you explain bin laden? Why isn't there a fuckload more terrorism from all the people in poverty all over the world?
 

injurai

Banned
ISIS does not want peace. ISIS wants to bring about the apocalypse.

If your theory about poverty being the cause how do you explain bin laden? Why isn't there a fuckload more terrorism from all the people in poverty all over the world?

Not that no one ever aspires to bring the apocalypse. I think there is much more to it than bringing the end times. It's seen as carrying out the will of god, and submitting yourself to him. It has to do when people legitimately feeling like society is in shambles, and turning to quranic texts, hadiths, traditionalist customs. All in attempts to better right themselves with god, to serve and find a purpose in their life. To feel apart of a larger community that seeks to have a share in shaping the world. People in ISIL themselves have different motivations and reasons, but certainly at the center they want an Islamic state that upholds the customes that they feel allow them to live in accordance with what they see as God's will.
 

Zero Hero

Member
DVGbUJs.jpg
 

Snake

Member
This is why Obama is an awful leader. He doesn't deal with reality as it exists. He and his administration seem to put too much stock in the abilities of his oratorical prowess to the point of thinking it will conjure the world as they desire it.

He's also accomplishing the opposite of what he's setting out to do here. By pronouncing whether ISIS is legitimately Islamic -effectively saying to the enemy that he has a preferred definition of Islam - his war against them becomes a religious one.

This little lecture didn't get us any closer to dealing effectively with the threat of ISIS. In fact it probably just handed them propaganda.

Glad to see some people posting Wood's Atlantic essay here. Everyone should read it. Especially those who are about to cut and paste my tag in here.

100% garbage.

Not only is your notion of Obama thinking he can solve everything with oratory a complete right-wing fiction, your view on how ISIS will perceive these remarks has no basis in reality. You can try and preempt it all you like but "it probably just handed them propaganda" has got to be the most perfect summation of your tag to date.

There is nothing wrong or controversial about what the President is saying. All other Presidents addressing these issues have said the exact same thing (without the same right-wing blather ensuing in response), and all future Presidents regardless of party or ideology will follow suit. Deal with it.
 

reckless

Member
the punishment is is in 88:22-26. its only in the afterlife not this life. Let me repeat it for you because you are ignoring it from the previous posts

[88:22] Admonish, therefore, for thou art but an admonisher;
[88:23] Thou hast no authority to compel them.
[88:24] But whoever turns away and disbelieves,
[88:25] Allah will punish him with the greatest punishment.
[88:26] Unto Us surely is their return,
[88:27] Then, surely, it is for Us to call them to account.


[13:41] And whether We make thee see the fulfilment of some of the things with which We threaten them or whether We make thee die, it makes little difference, for on thee lies only the delivery of the Message, and on Us the reckoning.


[18:30] And say, ‘It is the truth from your Lord; wherefore let him who will, believe, and let him who will, disbelieve.’ Verily, We have prepared for the wrongdoers a fire whose flaming canopy shall enclose them. And if they cry for help, they will be helped with water like molten lead which will burn the faces. How dreadful the drink, and how evil is the Fire as a resting place!


How many times does the Quran have to repeat the message The Job of Prophets and Muslims is ONLY to convey the message" before you accept that there is no punishment for apostasy.

I love how no compulsion keeps getting said, while punishments are prescribed for not following the religion. Its like the mob saying it would be a shame for something to happen to you/ your store if you don't pay them, totally not compulsion!

So there is one verse that says don't do anything and its in the context of a story about people in the cave. You'd really think Mohammed or Allah would make it crystal clear not to do anything, but it isn't there are punishments be prescribed but not specified and you have Mohammed telling people to kill apostates very clearly and specifically. (Yes its the hadith, but most people will take that as the right choice as seen by countries that kill apostates since the Qur'an lacks specificity.)
 
I love how no compulsion keeps getting said, while punishments are prescribed for not following the religion. Its like the mob saying it would be a shame for something to happen to you/ your store if you don't pay them, totally not compulsion!

So there is one verse that says don't do anything and its in the context of a story about people in the cave. You'd really think Mohammed or Allah would make it crystal clear not to do anything, but it isn't there are punishments be prescribed but not specified and you have Mohammed telling people to kill apostates very clearly and specifically. (Yes its the hadith, but most people will take that as the right choice as seen by countries that kill apostates since the Qur'an lacks specificity.)

i think its common knowledge that when Quran says there is no compulsion in matters of faith it is saying you can what you want while knowing what Islam deems as good and what Islam deems as bad and in this life there is no punishment but if you truly believe you know if you dont do good deeds you get in trouble. this is a message for believers alone that they should act on good deeds through free will to get bonus points
 

reckless

Member
i think its common knowledge that when Quran says there is no compulsion in matters of faith it is saying you can what you want while knowing what Islam deems as good and what Islam deems as bad and in this life there is no punishment but if you truly believe you know if you dont do good deeds you get in trouble. this is a message for believers alone that they should act on good deeds through free will to get bonus points

Not common enough when there are countries that will kill or otherwise punish people for being apostates...

That is still compulsion, saying if you don't do this you will be punished for all eternity, the mental gymnastics you have to go through to say that isn't compulsion is astounding.
 
Not common enough when there are countries that will kill or otherwise punish people for being apostates...

That is still compulsion, saying if you don't do this you will be punished for all eternity, the mental gymnastics you have to go through to say that isn't compulsion is astounding.

well thats what needs to be reformed. on the clerical level (possible) and the radicalized level (that will be tough)

second part
actually no. lets look at THIS life You have a sense of free will. if you eat a lot of fat, you will get obese and get disease and suffer by the end it. if not fat then smoking is another example. if you exercise, that will help you later in life as you chose to do be good to yourself

this is similar. you can be good or be bad, but the burden is on you to be good using free will

you have the free will to do anything but the consequences of your actions matter even if you do things as a non religious person in this life. its not compulsary that you do good but it is beneficial for you.
 
Not common enough when there are countries that will kill or otherwise punish people for being apostates...

That is still compulsion, saying if you don't do this you will be punished for all eternity, the mental gymnastics you have to go through to say that isn't compulsion is astounding.
dbl post
 

reckless

Member
well thats what needs to be reformed. on the clerical level (possible) and the radicalized level (that will be tough)

second part
actually no. lets look at THIS life You have a sense of free will. if you eat a lot of fat, you will get obese and get disease and suffer by the end it. if not fat then smoking is another example. if you exercise, that will help you later in life as you chose to do be good to yourself

this is similar. you can be good or be bad, but the burden is on you to be good using free will

you have the free will to do anything but the consequences of your actions matter even if you do things as a non religious person in this life. its not compulsary that you do good but it is beneficial for you.

Except it doesn't matter how good you are if you don't accept Allah you are punished.

With your example thats like saying if i believe in the bacon god, i can eat bacon a lot and follow some other arbitrary rules and them im guaranteed not get a heart attack, if i don't believe no matter what i do i'm still going to get a heart attack. That isn't free will.

Bringing it back to the whole "religion is not responsible for terrorism".
That provides an excuse for groups like ISIS to kill people of different religious groups and even other muslims who aren't following "true" islam (at least from their perspective).
 

Balphon

Member
Adventurism by the U.S. and other global powers in the Middle East and Afghanistan bears more blame for the predominance of terrorist movements in that part of the world than anything else. I'm not sure how a different religious majority would have changed anything.
 
Except it doesn't matter how good you are if you don't accept Allah you are punished.

With your example thats like saying if i believe in the bacon god, i can eat bacon a lot and follow some other arbitrary rules and them im guaranteed not get a heart attack, if i don't believe no matter what i do i'm still going to get a heart attack. That isn't free will.

Bringing it back to the whole "religion is not responsible for terrorism".
That provides an excuse for groups like ISIS to kill people of different religious groups and even other muslims who aren't following "true" islam (at least from their perspective).

That is up to God. God has only said only those good deeds from people will not be accepted who reject God in addition to stop people from believing by force or coersion. Quran has said Islam allows non-Muslims to go to heaven

Explained here: http://www2.alislam.org/askislam/mp3/MEI_19860307_06.mp3


God's has shown a suggestion, it is up to God who goes to heaven, those guided have the most easy path if they follow it. but it is up to God as per Islam that non-Muslims can and will go to heaven depending on their deeds even if their path is not guided by guidance because they dindt accept any guidance
 

y2dvd

Member
Why doesn't God come down herself and explain her own words because there are a helluva lot of people that are misinterpreting it?
 

Dugna

Member
Why doesn't God come down herself and explain her own words because there are a helluva lot of people that are misinterpreting it?

Because then it would mean the apocalypse, funny how the most definite thing to prove a religion is completely real ends up destroying the world...makes for convenient backup plan for the religion to stay around for all of humanity.
 
Because then it would mean the apocalypse, funny how the most definite thing to prove a religion is completely real ends up destroying the world...makes for convenient backup plan for the religion to stay around for all of humanity.

What if we colonized other planets or star systems before the apocalypse starts?
 

Seeds

Member
well you have a choice as someone who is NOT muslim and consider both interpretations equally valid having not studied islam. Which interpretation in this case would you rather have, the moderate muslims or the Daesh view

Considering the book seems to lack any kind of foresight regarding the laws in modern society, I would rather people interpret it like they would any other book written at that time.
 
Why doesn't God come down herself and explain her own words because there are a helluva lot of people that are misinterpreting it?

A divine press conference would actually solve a lot.

Though according to a lot of major religions, that supposedly is what's going to happen, and everything will get correctly sorted out...in the afterlife
or I guess, during the apocalypse and end of days. or something
. How convenient.
 

Snake

Member
Is that like me saying that Gamergate isn't responsible for death threats and twitter harassment?

No, it's like saying the hobby of gaming in general isn't responsible for Gamergaters making death threats and harassing people on twitter.
 

Van Owen

Banned
No, it's like saying the hobby of gaming in general isn't responsible for Gamergaters making death threats and harassing people on twitter.

Religion isn't a hobby though. Gamergate is according to some people about a set of beliefs, just like religion.
 
Considering the book seems to lack any kind of foresight regarding the laws in modern society, I would rather people interpret it like they would any other book written at that time.

Thats not what I asked. Which view would you prefer existing if it will stay and you have a choice.
 

turtle553

Member
Nobody can follow a religious text 100%, therefore you have to have some arbitrary criteria about someone's religion. The best way is to just go by what people say. In this case ISIS is saying they are Muslim and there is no way to disprove that. They certainly don't represent a large portion of the Muslim population, but they are part of it.

If you can accept someone's gender by how they identify, then you certainly must accept their religious identity.
 

Kinitari

Black Canada Mafia
I think even if what Obama is saying is... A simplification, it's the right simplification to be making. Islam's problems regarding violence are real, many tied to outmoded ideas of physical discipline many tied more to the poorly communicated ideas in the Quran and Hadith, allowing for interpretations to run rampant. I'm not defending Islam or the Quran in that respect, it has so many problems I don't even know how to list them all.

However, Muslims in the developed world who have good lives don't want any of this nonsense, and I think it's more useful and practical to look at it from that perspective. How do we give everyone lives that are so great, that fucking it up is out of the question? That still leaves the inherent problems in Islam on the table, but they are not a big of a deal when you get to that point, and the religion itself will fall out of favour the less people feel the need for it.
 
I hate religious apologetics. I suppose it's necessary as a stopgap solution to create a more tolerable world, but the mental gymnastics that are required to make backwards morals modern just come off as desparate and deceptive. Just throw the damn thing away.

it really is tiring to see how complex religion is debated when its such complete fuckery. just to hear how inintricate being a liberal muslim versus being a conservative muslim is makes me just shake my head.
 
Having to pick between two options isn't much of a chioce, specially seeing as I've already told you what I would prefer.

You wouldn't rather have the moderate view prevailing over the minority Daesh view considering Islam as a religion will exist whether people like it or not?
 

grumble

Member
I generally agree but do remember some research showing the percentage of moderates who supported the Charlie hebdo attacks, it was really scary.
 

beast786

Member
Have you read what the Punishment is?
1. The adultery act has to be fully committed, and I mean penetration
2. four witnesses should witness the actual penetration as it is happening
3. Each of the four witnesses should have be with the best moral characters of society, dont lie, dont cheat, always tell the truth, dont coerce, have not hurt anyone morally, spiritually or physically, are righteous and good.
4. These four witnesses exist in a society where such four witnesses each are the norm not the exception.

next....


4 witnesses.

Does it have to be 4 male witness or typical Islamic conversion for every one male is equal to two female?

Can you also remind me this punishment for adultery?
 
Obama is right in doing this. By reiterating that the west is NOT at war with Islam, ISIS and similar groups don't have that as an excuse with which to recruit from.

Of course, actions speak louder than words and well, historically, we don't have a stellar track record in the region.

But I still think it's a good point to make.
 

Tesseract

Banned
You wouldn't rather have the moderate view prevailing over the minority Daesh view considering Islam as a religion will exist whether people like it or not?

it's not not a neither nor, both moral identities are adherent to ignorant ideology written by poor peasants. we should throw that shit in the garbage, and ridicule everyone who doesn't. undermine dogma, repudiate delusions.

yolo
 
it's not not a neither nor, both moral identities are adherent to ignorant ideology written by poor peasants. we should throw that shit in the garbage, and ridicule everyone who doesn't. undermine dogma, repudiate delusions.

yolo

So throw moderate view under the bus while using Daesh view as legitimate islamic view for the purpose of removing religion. That view sure will help moderate muslims trust people who don't like religion who say they are for peace

No wonder muslims feel sidelined in society after 9/11 when their way of life is looked at with suspicion
 
Obama is right in doing this. By reiterating that the west is NOT at war with Islam, ISIS and similar groups don't have that as an excuse with which to recruit from.

Of course, actions speak louder than words and well, historically, we don't have a stellar track record in the region.

But I still think it's a good point to make.

Daesh will probably use the excuse of increasing islamophobia or religion hating news as a recruiting mechanism
 

Tesseract

Banned
So throw moderate view under the bus while using Daesh view as legitimate islamic view for the purpose of removing religion. That view sure will help moderate muslims trust people who don't like religion who say they are for peace

No wonder muslims feel sidelined in society after 9/11 when their way of life is looked at with suspicion

not just muslims,

scientologists, christians, whatever
 
not just muslims,

scientologists, christians, whatever

Anti theism is really the fundamentalism of atheism. If only people would stop sidelining people who do nothing to them. Having been ridiculed for my sect in Pakistan I hope I don't have to move back to Canada because I start getting publicly ridiculed here in US as well, this is a big concern I feel with increased volatility in arguments
 
Then why are only some Muslims participating in terrorist acts, and not all Muslims? What is different about Muslims living in Syria than Muslims living in Indonesia? If you want to know, the difference is their circumstances and living environment. People living in a war-torn environment where they have no prospects of a stable and safe future are thousands of times more likely to engage in violence or extremism than people living in countries where they can go to work and raise a family in peace.

Even if there was no religion, the people in some of these devastated countries would still have no prospects waiting for them if they tried to live a peaceful life. If you take this pre-existing mass of desperate people with no real hope who are already familiar with violence on a daily basis, and then mix in ambitious and ruthless demagogues who see an opportunity to grab power for themselves, it becomes a volatile concoction that starts to do real harm.

Despair, poverty, base greed, the desire for power, mistrust, resentment at distant powers that one feels are responsible for their lot in life. These are the ingredients of political violence. They are as old as human civilization, and have been true for every place on earth and every people. Islamic fundamentalism is just a convenient flag for these forces to rally around, but that flag could have been replaced by anything.

Groups like ISIS are just the most modern incarnation of an ancient socio-politcial force called warlordism. In times of chaos, those who are the most brutal rule. You can look at any point of history and find examples, from around the world. The things these groups are terrifying, but they are not unfamiliar or strange. And the forces that motivate these atrocities are clear: poverty and chaos.

If you want religious people to stop killing others in the name or their religion, you just need to give them stability, safety, and a chance to make a decent living. Once people have peace, they won't want to risk losing it by engaging in violence.

Except people are joining ISIS from all over the world, even people who have great living circumstances and environments. So no, you don't have to live in a war torn country to be an extremist.
 

injurai

Banned
Anti theism is really the fundamentalism of atheism. If only people would stop sidelining people who do nothing to them. Having been ridiculed for my sect in Pakistan I hope I don't have to move back to Canada because I start getting publicly ridiculed here in US as well, this is a big concern I feel with increased volatility in arguments

Antitheism isn't necessarily theist or theologian hating, To be opposed to the notion of the theological institution that propagates theist faith is antitheism.
 

beast786

Member
Anti theism is really the fundamentalism of atheism. If only people would stop sidelining people who do nothing to them. Having been ridiculed for my sect in Pakistan I hope I don't have to move back to Canada because I start getting publicly ridiculed here in US as well, this is a big concern I feel with increased volatility in arguments

With that logic anti atheism is really the fundamentalism of thesim.

Ridiculed in U.S. . Hate crimes are insignificant against Muslim in US . In fact 5 times less than jews.
 
Except people are joining ISIS from all over the world, even people who have great living circumstances and environments. So no, you don't have to live in a war torn country to be an extremist.

People join what they think is right and in case a cultish murderous movement. The number is insignificant still despite all the promises and now people are running away from it. This shows its truth and lack thereof
 
With that logic anti atheism is really the fundamentalism of thesim.

Ridiculed in U.S. . Hate crimes are insignificant against Muslim in US . In fact 5 times less than jews.

Yes it is. This is why both fundamentalism of theism and fundmantalism of atheism must come to an end for a proper way where hate for a way of life in either way is not standard in society.

How does one attempt to attract another person to a different way of life through general civility if it begins with the hate for belief.
 

beast786

Member
People join what they think is right and in case a cultish murderous movement. The number is insignificant still despite all the promises and now people are running away from it. This shows its truth and lack thereof

Even though we differ. I support your reform ideas. We differ in our understanding of scripture, but I understand that we need more of you to define islam.

I can't hate God . I can't hate what doesn't exist.

Atheists only have one thing. Understanding of No super natural being. That's it. Anything outside that is outside of atheism
 

injurai

Banned
Yes it is. This is why both fundamentalism of theism and fundmantalism of atheism must come to an end for a proper way where hate for a way of life in either way is not standard in society.

How does one attempt to attract another person to a different way of life through general civility if it begins with the hate for belief.

There is a difference between hate and criticism. Calling out certain practices or lines of thinking are not synonymous with hate. Do not conflate the two.
 
There is a difference between hate and criticism. Calling out certain practices or lines of thinking are not synonymous with hate. Do not conflate the two.

When it grows to a more livid form eventually when you criticise the faith of those who those people in the country who are not doing anything to you eventually society will shift from criticising it to hating it if it goes unchecked in any society. This applies to both faithful and without faith
 
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