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[Rentahamster]

Same as non religious people that have started wars.

That's a false equivalence, and I will explain why.

Nazi Germany was atheist, so is China, and many more including communist Russia. They alone have killed 100s of millions, I believe MAO alone for himself 70 million.

Take this phrase -

Nazi Germany was nationalist, so is China, and many more including communist Russia. They alone have killed 100s of millions, I believe MAO alone for himself 70 million.

Does that mean I can identify the cause of the atrocities of Nazi Germany and Communist China and Russia is from them being nationalist? What about this?

Nazi Germany was omnivorous, so is China, and many more including communist Russia. They alone have killed 100s of millions, I believe MAO alone for himself 70 million.

Does that mean I can identify the cause of the atrocities of Nazi Germany and Communist China and Russia is from them eating a diet of both meat and vegetables?

Just because multiple groups share one characteristic, that doesn't necessarily mean that this shared characteristic is the driving point of their actions. It could be, but it is not strong evidence for this case, without any other context. This is a correlation/causation error.

(To note, I am granting you for the sake of argument the case that Nazi Germany was an "atheist" country. They weren't.)

Humans are flawed, greedy, narcissistic little shits and it doesn’t matter if there is religion or not.

Yes they are, and humans will continue to do terrible things with or without religion. The point that you missed, however, is that religion is and has been used to justify violence and to start wars. You can't say the same for atheism.

There have been many wars throughout history where the driving force was religious justification, converting nonbelievers by the sword, punishing nonbelievers for wrongthink, etc. There are even multiple instances written in The Bible of God Himself commanding the Israelites to war and enslaving the conquered. There are also smaller scale conflicts like the Spanish Inquisition, the Salem witch trials, and the persecution of Galileo, where the primary justification for violence is based on conflict with religious orthodoxy.

Can you name me any wars where the prime justification for that war was "I don't believe in God"?

 

[Tajaz2426]

M

That's a false equivalence, and I will explain why.



Take this phrase -

Nazi Germany was nationalist, so is China, and many more including communist Russia. They alone have killed 100s of millions, I believe MAO alone for himself 70 million.

Does that mean I can identify the cause of the atrocities of Nazi Germany and Communist China and Russia is from them being nationalist? What about this?

Nazi Germany was omnivorous, so is China, and many more including communist Russia. They alone have killed 100s of millions, I believe MAO alone for himself 70 million.

Does that mean I can identify the cause of the atrocities of Nazi Germany and Communist China and Russia is from them eating a diet of both meat and vegetables?

Just because multiple groups share one characteristic, that doesn't necessarily mean that this shared characteristic is the driving point of their actions. It could be, but it is not strong evidence for this case, without any other context. This is a correlation/causation error.

(To note, I am granting you for the sake of argument the case that Nazi Germany was an "atheist" country. They weren't.)



Yes they are, and humans will continue to do terrible things with or without religion. The point that you missed, however, is that religion is and has been used to justify violence and to start wars. You can't say the same for atheism.

There have been many wars throughout history where the driving force was religious justification, converting nonbelievers by the sword, punishing nonbelievers for wrongthink, etc. There are even multiple instances written in The Bible of God Himself commanding the Israelites to war and enslaving the conquered. There are also smaller scale conflicts like the Spanish Inquisition, the Salem witch trials, and the persecution of Galileo, where the primary justification for violence is based on conflict with religious orthodoxy.

Can you name me any wars where the prime justification for that war was "I don't believe in God"?

There is no false equivalence as I never stated people do not start wars over religion. I said people that are non religious people start wars and murder people just the same.

It is a fact that mass murderers come in all shapes and sizes. I wasn’t stating anything about nationalism, socialism., etc. I stated very clearly that anyone can be a genocidal maniac and there have been plenty in both regards.

I believe you are arguing something not stated.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

just replace man with religion.

 

[Rentahamster]

M
There is no false equivalence as I never stated people do not start wars over religion. I said people that are non religious people start wars and murder people just the same.

It is a fact that mass murders come in all shapes and sizes. I wasn’t stating anything about nationalism, socialism., etc. I stated very clearly that anyone can be a genocidal maniac and there have been plenty in both regards.

That's not the false equivalence I was talking about.

You were implying that atheism is on equal footing with religion as a reason to justify violence. You implied this by stating that "atheist" countries also started wars just like religious countries did.

Many religious countries have started wars in the past for religious reasons.

No atheist countries, as far as I know, have started wars for "atheist" reasons.

That's the false equivalence. Please address that point.

 

[Tajaz2426]

No I didn’t state that. I stated that even people that were atheists have mass murdered people, committed genocide, etc and that is a fact.

Edit: sorry forgot the reply button. Not good with tech.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

That's not the false equivalence I was talking about.

You were implying that atheism is on equal footing with religion as a reason to justify violence. You implied this by stating that "atheist" countries also started wars just like religious countries did.

Many religious countries have started wars in the past for religious reasons.

No atheist countries, as far as I know, have started wars for "atheist" reasons.

What would be a hypothetical "atheist reason" for starting a war?

 

[Tajaz2426]

What would be a hypothetical "atheist reason" for starting a war?

Stalin and Mao both used atheism to murder and stamp out religion. I guess that is a reason.

 

[Draugoth]

Tell religion is grownsup version of Santa Claus.

Spoiler: spoiler

Jokes aside, a lot of people are atheists or dont have a religion because most of them have bad actors or spred the word really badly.

 

[Rentahamster]

You were implying that atheism is on equal footing with religion as a reason to justify violence. You implied this by stating that "atheist" countries also started wars just like religious countries did.

No I didn’t state that.

Yes you did.

Same as non religious people that have started wars. Nazi Germany was atheist, so is China, and many more including communist Russia. They alone have killed 100s of millions, I believe MAO alone for himself 70 million.

Just as those who start wars without religion in sight. Wars can start just same without any religious reasons.

I stated that even people that were atheists have mass murdered people, committed genocide, etc and that is a fact.

Yes you did say that, and I agree with that statement, but you're again ignoring the false equivalence you either did or didn't intend to make. With your counterexamples, you're placing "religiousness" and "atheism" as the same with regards for the justification of violence. They're not the same. Please don't respond about the point I'm not making and please do respond about the point I am making. Yes, I agree with you that wars can start just the same without any religious reasons, but that doesn't mean "atheism" is one of the reasons.

I think this simple thought experiment should clear up any confusion. Please answer these questions.

How many wars in the past were waged for primarily religious justifications? None, a few, or a lot?

How many wars in the past were waged for primarily atheist justifications? None, a few, or a lot?

 

[Tajaz2426]

Yes, I stated that those running those countries were atheists and they started wars. That was pretty clear as I started my sentence with people who have started wars and listed the countries these people started wars with.

Again, you posted what I said clearly, that anyone, even atheists can start wars. Again, no false equivalence and your reading comprehension needs some serious help.

You’re agreeing with what I stated, and putting thoughts in my mind of what you want to believe I meant. You are arguing something fantasy unicorn that wasn’t stated.

It is perfectly clear, that atheists themselves have started wars. There is nothing else to read into to it that you think you are, while you copied what I said perfectly.

Edit: also no need for a thought experiment as atheism is not a religion. They are just mass murders that are atheists, like I said.

 

[Rentahamster]

What would be a hypothetical "atheist reason" for starting a war?

I don't know. It's absurd since atheism isn't a belief, or a world view, a philosophy, or ideology. It's simply a lack of belief in a god or gods. Once could argue that someone committing violence in the name of harming people who do believe in a god would count, but that would be more akin to a antitheist worldview.

Stalin and Mao both used atheism to murder and stamp out religion. I guess that is a reason.

The primary motivator for that was the authoritarian ideological desire to stamp out all opposition to the state that could be potentially viewed as having a higher authority than the state. It has to do with totalitarian ultra-nationalism.

 

[Rentahamster]

Yes, I stated that those running those countries were atheists and they started wars. That was pretty clear as I started my sentence with people who have started wars and listed the countries these people started wars with.

Again, you posted what I said clearly, that anyone, even atheists can start wars. Again, no false equivalence and your reading comprehension needs some serious help.

You’re agreeing with what I stated, and putting thoughts in my mind of what you want to believe I meant. You are arguing something fantasy unicorn that wasn’t stated.

It is perfectly clear, that atheists themselves have started wars. There is nothing else to read into to it that you think you are, while you copied what I said perfectly.

Edit: also no need for a thought experiment as atheism is not a religion. They are just mass murders that are atheists, like I said.

Please answer my direct questions, thanks.

 

[Tajaz2426]

I don't know. It's absurd since atheism isn't a belief, or a world view, a philosophy, or ideology. It's simply a lack of belief in a god or gods. Once could argue that someone committing violence in the name of harming people who do believe in a god would count, but that would be more akin to a antitheist worldview.


The primary motivator for that was the authoritarian ideological desire to stamp out all opposition to the state that could be potentially viewed as having a higher authority than the state. It has to do with totalitarian ultra-nationalism.

He had the “atheist five year plan” to eradicate religion. It came from his suck hole. He wanted to destroy it, period.

Again, atheists slaughter and start wars, period

 

[Tajaz2426]

Please answer my direct questions, thanks.

Again, there is no question to answer because atheism is not a belief structure. Atheists have started wars just like religious factions.

You still in your dome upstairs think I said they started it over some beliefs of atheism when there is no belief, it is the lack there of.

What in the sweet Jesus are you trying to say here?

 

[thefool]

Tell him it's the foundation of every society, and the only thing we've been able to design to achieve common goals.

 

[Rentahamster]

He had the “atheist five year plan” to eradicate religion. It came from his sick hole. He wanted to destroy it, period.

Yes he did, and was the genesis of the plan because he was atheist or because he was an authoritarian nationalist? Which is the primary motivator here?

Again, atheists slaughter and start wars, period

Yes I know that and I agree with that, but that doesn't let you diminish the severity of religious justifications for war by creating a false equivalence with atheism.

Please answer my direct questions, thanks.

 

[Tajaz2426]

Yes he did, and was the genesis of the plan because he was atheist or because he was an authoritarian nationalist? Which is the primary motivator here?


Yes I know that and I agree with that, but that doesn't let you diminish the severity of religious justifications by creating a false equivalence with atheism.

Please answer my direct questions, thanks.

Again there is nothing else to answer of the belief structure in atheism to start a war, because it is the lack of belief structures.

We have run the course. I’ve stated plainly and you have agreed that atheists start wars just a religious people do. I never stated wars were not started over religious reasons. The reasons for war and to slaughter over anything is horrid, whether religious, or not.

 

[TheDreadBaron]

Again there is nothing else to answer of the belief structure in atheism to start a war, because it is the lack of belief structures.

We have run the course. I’ve stated plainly and you have agreed that atheists start wars just a religious people do. I never stated wars were not started over religious reasons. The reasons for war and to slaughter over anything is horrid, whether religious, or not.

I think their point is that people can use religion to justify their wars, and so saying that atheists and religious people both start wars is ignoring that role religion is playing in fueling the war itself. They are not equally responsible for starting wars which is what is implied in your "both sides" commentary.

Good people will try to do good, bad people will try to do evil, but in order to get good people to do evil you need religion.

 

[Tajaz2426]

I think their point is that people can use religion to justify their wars, and so saying that atheists and religious people both start wars is ignoring that role religion is playing in fueling the war itself. They are not equally responsible for starting wars which is what is implied in your "both sides" commentary.

Good people will try to do good, bad people will try to do evil, but in order to get good people to do evil you need religion.

I understand completely what they are stating and agree that there have been religions fought over wars. I stated that religious and non religious people alike kill and murder.

I never stated otherwise. They also do not have to be equal in murdering millions. A person who tells ten lies is no better than a person who tells 100. They are Botha till liars.

I am only going off what I stated and what they believe the mythical unicorn I stated was.

You also do not need religion to make good people do bad things. It happens everyday.

 

[Rentahamster]

I never stated wars were not started over religious reasons.

I never claimed that you stated that, and you're still ignoring the crux of the argument here. Please answer my direct questions.

 

[Tajaz2426]

I never claimed that you stated that, and you're still ignoring the crux of the argument here. Please answer my direct questions.

Last time, there is nothing to answer. Your questions make no sense as you cannot start a war over atheism as it has no structure to start war over. It is themselves that are starting the war and murdering millions, just as I stated.

Is this real life? You keep agreeing with what I stated and then adding in what you believe I have stated in your own head. There isn’t an argument to be had at all. I stated religious people start wars and so do folks who are atheists.

 

[Days like these...]

Last time, there is nothing to answer. Your questions make no sense as you cannot start a war over atheism as it has no structure to start war over.

Yes, you can. Someone can proclaim there is no God and we will stamp out religion by waging war on all countries who are religious.

 

[Tajaz2426]

Yes, you can. Someone can proclaim there is no God and we will stamp out religion by waging war on all countries who are religious.

No, as there is no structure for belief. Atheists are just like anyone else, no better or worse. They would just be a person that wanted to eradicate religion that is an atheist.

You cannot hate anything with a lack of belief structure and without structure there would be no hate for religion at all. Atheism is a rejection that there is a God, or deities that are around us.

Atheists are just rejectors of theism. As an atheist I have no reason to hate religion at all, or want to do harm to them because I do not believe in their God. If I did, I like many religious people that have done it, am just a maniac.

Anyway, that is my view and many others based on the facts that you have no reason to hate or love anyone else without any structure. I have no horse in the race. Last post, as I have to go be a grandpa and I’m tired.

 

[Days like these...]

No, as there is no structure for belief. Atheists are just like anyone else, no better or worse. They would just be a person that wanted to eradicate religion that is an atheist.

You cannot hate anything with a lack of belief structure and without structure there would be no hate for religion at all. Atheism is a rejection that there is a God, or deities that are around us.

Atheists are just rejectors of theism. As an atheist I have no reason to hate religion at all, or want to do harm to them because I do not believe in their God. If I did, I like many religious people that have done it, am just a maniac.

Anyway, that is my view and many others. I have no horse in the race. Last post, as I have to go be a grandpa and I’m tired.

You just can't deal with the fact that religious wars have killed millions but there has never been a war waged in the name of atheism so you've decided to argue semantics. You're as transparent as a broken window.

 

[Tajaz2426]

You just can't deal with the fact that religious wars have killed millions but there has never been a war waged in the name of atheism so you've decided to argue semantics. You're as transparent as a broken window.

I never said there were no wars with religion. I stated a simple fact that religious people and non religious people have started wars and they have. Mao was an atheist and killed more than 70 million, Stalin, etc.

They are all horrible, it doesn’t matter who killed a few less or more. That has been my statement from the beginning, go read my posts.

Again, you cannot wage a war based on nothing. Atheism is the absence of belief and there are no words, books, or any structure to use to start said wars.

Please expound on this transparency you believe that I have? I was very forward on my statements and that I myself are an atheist, as I do not believe in sky fairies.

You are arguing with your own head that you think I said that atheism itself started wars and I did not, I said atheists, just as religious people themselves have started wars.

 

[Days like these...]

I never said there were no wars with religion. I stated a simple fact that religious people and non religious people have started wars and they have. Mao was an atheist and killed more than 70 million, Stalin, etc.

They are all horrible, it doesn’t matter who killed a few less or more. That has been my statement from the beginning, go read my posts.

And you keep missing the point on purpose which is not who starts wars but WHY people start wars many wars have been started in the name of religion none in the name of atheism. Hiding behind semantics isn't going to cut it. Come on that wikipedia PhD is failing you.

I'm just going to drop it. I'm not religious but I'm not an atheist or agnostic either.

 

[Tajaz2426]

And you keep missing the point on purpose which is not who starts wars but WHY people start wars many wars have been started in the name of religion none in the name of atheism. Hiding behind semantics isn't going to cut it. Come on that wikipedia PhD is failing you.

This isn’t semantics, it’s facts. What facts have I not stated clearly?

Please be specific, instead of pretending to be in my head. I have no problem with religion, just as I have no problem with anyone else.

It doesn’t matter at all why people started wars when 100s of millions have lost their lives. Again, you are arguing with yourself, as I have never stated religion hasn’t started wars.

The gent I replied to just said religion has killed millions and I said, even non believers have committed genocide against humanity. Learn to read.

 

[Days like these...]

This isn’t semantics, it’s facts. What facts have I not stated clearly?

Please be specific, instead of pretending to be in my head. I have no problem with religion, just as I have no problem with anyone else.

It doesn’t matter at all why people started wars when 100s of millions have lost their lives. Again, you are arguing with yourself, as I have never stated religion hasn’t started wars.

The gent I replied to just said religion has killed millions and I said, even non believers have committed genocide against humanity. Learn to read.

And you keep ignoring the reasons behind the wars. For some reason you can't get past bad people start wars and acknowledge the why. Like a broken record

Bad people start wars
Bad people start wars
Bad people start wars

You're being intentionally obtuse and arguing in bad faith. I'm really done replying.

 

[Tajaz2426]

And you keep ignoring the reasons behind the wars. For some reason you can't get past bad people start wars and acknowledge the why. Like a broken record

Bad people start wars
Bad people start wars
Bad people start wars

You're being intentionally obtuse and arguing in bad faith. I'm really done replying.

I have stated in my replies there are wars started by religion: i was replying to another poster that religious people start wars, and that non believers, do the same.

Please explain how I’m being obtuse? I’ve stated over and over about wars and that I was replying to someone and said what I said.

No one ever said there were no wars started by religion or the belief in religion, only that atheists do the same and murder people in the millions, which is a fact. Again, you’re arguing with yourself. I did not argue in bad faith or I would have said only wars are started by religion, which would be bad faith.

They are all the same to me and have killed 100s of millions. Pretty simple. Have a good day.

 

[Azelover]

The word religion comes from "religare", which means to reconnect, in latin. Basically to reconnect with God. The details of that may vary greatly depending on the faith. But that's basically what it means..

 

[Hot5pur]

I'm really happy to see how atheistic people on here are.
In some ways being on the internet helps you question things, but in other ways people can get sucked into deep holes of confirmation bias. GAF crowd too sharp for that.

If people stopped teaching their kids about religion, you can bet that religions would shrink very quickly. Got to get 'em when they're young, as they say.
I'd tell the kid that a long time along, we came up with some belief about a higher power, and those beliefs persisted to this day. For many people it's a way to not get overwhelmed by how complex life is, so this belief helps them live their life.
Importantly it's important to just let people believe whatever they want and not tease them for it, but also to know that to truly believe something one should be convinced of it, and that requires evidence that is observable in some way (and through science, a highly consistent framework for the nature of the universe, but it's a bit early for that). That is how we arrive at a basic understanding of how things are and how they work.
I think a 6 year old should be able to grasp it, kids are smarter than we give them credit for.

 

[bitbydeath]

I have stated in my replies there are wars started by religion: i was replying to another poster that religious people start wars, and that non believers, do the same.

Please explain how I’m being obtuse? I’ve stated over and over about wars and that I was replying to someone and said what I said.

No one ever said there were no wars started by religion or the belief in religion, only that atheists do the same and murder people in the millions, which is a fact. Again, you’re arguing with yourself. I did not argue in bad faith or I would have said only wars are started by religion, which would be bad faith.

They are all the same to me and have killed 100s of millions. Pretty simple. Have a good day.

Bad people aside.
Would you agree that religious people have started wars to push religion, and atheists have never started a war to push atheism?

 

[niilokin]

IMO religion and beliefs are more deep and personal things than your musical taste, sexual preferences, kinks etc. You shouldn't make it anyone else's business what you believe in.

 

[darrylgorn]

What would be a hypothetical "atheist reason" for starting a war?

Vegans are annoying.

 

[Artoris]

Bad people aside.
Would you agree that religious people have started wars to push religion, and atheists have never started a war to push atheism?

I think it's more like bad people using religion as an excuse, look at putin

 

[farmerboy]

*crickets* Any suggestions? Obviously I can't get too deep with her. She has no concept of God.

It's the belief that our underlying moral code, our belief on what is good and bad, comes from a connection to something outside of us and our physical world.

 

[bitbydeath]

I think it's more like bad people using religion as an excuse, look at putin

It’s just because they’re brainwashed into thinking their way is the only way.

 

[*Nightwing]

Bad people aside.
Would you agree that religious people have started wars to push religion, and atheists have never started a war to push atheism?

Are you people fucking serious in this thread with this horse blinder one sided echo chamber bullshit?

Every single atheist has been a loud mouthed Karen talking down to the “stupid” believers trying to push thier ideals via force but no one will follow them. There hasn’t been an atheism war but not for lack of trying, it’s cause no one fucking cares about atheism except charlatans butthurt by religion.

If they can’t get people behind them to organize a belief system, how can they organize to push a military operation?


It’s not because atheists are sooooo altruistic they would never force their beliefs on other via force, just ask the millions killed in the name of atheism via the communism proxy by Mao and Stalin, it was such a great humanitarian historical moment eliminating all who refused to align with their ideals including atheism, a real point of balance making religion show it’s true oppressive colors while the light and magic of atheism shined through like truth….

……Fuck off bunch of short sighted anti intellectual cunts

 

[Toots]

Tell him it's the foundation of every society, and the only thing we've been able to design to achieve common goals.

Until we found out it is a lot easier to get people to agree on the value of things, than on the value of ideas.
And everything started to go downhill from there...

Here is an profoundly interesting book on the subject : L'empire du moindre mal
D Days like these... aren't you supposed to be from latin america ? Isn't christianity embedded at birth with every latino children ??
I'll see myself out Good luck with explaining complex ideas to your daughter, but im sure you'll ace it

 

[Days like these...]

Here is an profoundly interesting book on the subject : L'empire du moindre mal
D Days like these... aren't you supposed to be from latin america ? Isn't christianity embedded at birth with every latino children ??

I am Mexican I went to Catholic school though my early childhood and my mom would drag us to church every Sunday. I don't know what that has to do with anything.

 

[bitbydeath]

There hasn’t been an atheism war

So we’re on the same page?

 

[Artoris]

It’s just because they’re brainwashed into thinking their way is the only way.

putin type people are not brainwashed they use the brainwashing for their own ends

 

[Toots]

I am Mexican I went to Catholic school though my early childhood and my mom would drag us to church every Sunday. I don't know what that has to do with anything.

It was a joke about people from Latin America being so religious you shouldn't have to teach your daughter religion, it's embedded in her genes
At least, with your religious upbringing, you know what to do for your daughter to stop asking or caring about religion (that's what sunday church and catechism classes did to me anyway).

 

[kurisu_1974]

M
There is no false equivalence as I never stated people do not start wars over religion. I said people that are non religious people start wars and murder people just the same.

It is a fact that mass murderers come in all shapes and sizes. I wasn’t stating anything about nationalism, socialism., etc. I stated very clearly that anyone can be a genocidal maniac and there have been plenty in both regards.

I believe you are arguing something not stated.

They don't start war "because atheism". Atheism is nothing more than the ASBSENCE of belief. I feel like this difference is very hard for some people, mostly religious ones to understand.

Edit: obligatory Steven Weinberg quote

“With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil - that takes religion.”

 

[*Nightwing]

So we’re on the same page?

Just like an atheist to cherry pick out of context the data to suit your needs disregarding reality as a whole all the while acting with faux moral superiority despite thier own hypocritical condescending disingenuous cuntness

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

Show her a PlayStation

 

[kurisu_1974]

Just like an atheist to cherry pick

Where to even start