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[PhoenixDark]

Worse, it legitimizes ISIS and aides their recruiting because it reinforces the idea of the West being at war with Islam. It's not even that hard to understand.

To play devil's advocate, don't they already believe we're at war with Islam regardless? Recruitment seems pretty high to me. It's not hard to create propaganda based on innocent people being blown to bits by drones.

 

[RiZ III]

Such an awesome president. I dread 2016

 

[Maninthemirror]

Yes. That was exact point I was making. :|
Dude said if religion didn't exist would there still be terrorism. I pointed out that yes, terrorism exists without a religious catalyst.



As someone who has spent the last six years dating a "Moderate" Muslim, you're actually incorrect. It really depends on where they come from. If it's Saudi Arabia, then they're probably going to say "YES WE AGREE WITH THE QURAN 100% PLEASE DON'T CALL THE RELIGIOUS POLICE ON US". If they're moderate Muslims in the UK, they'll probably ignore the parts about beheading and stuff.

As someone who knows plenty of muslims from my sect and others I can tell you its correct . Beheading and stuff in Quran ? Sounds like someone hasn't read the Quran and read it in blogs. Technically all you have to do is read the Quran as a whole to know I'm right

 

[David Incorporated Esq.]

To play devil's advocate, don't they we're at war with Islam regardless? Recruitment seems pretty high to me. It's not hard to create propaganda based on innocent people being blown to bits by drones.

This is true, but it doesn't mean we have to further reinforce it. In Obama's speech he also spoke about acknowledging the grievances of the communities that ISIS is able to recruit from, and working towards developing a positive image of the US via supporting education, infrastructure, etc. He didn't mention drones, and that should be a part of it, but supporting infrastructure out there and dropping any hints of being at war with Islam might go lengths to quell ISIS' ability to recruit and grow.

 

[Arrogant Bastard]

Majority moderate muslim ignores no part of the text. People who aren't even muslim should stop lying and spreading misinformation when muslims on GAF are right here telling them they don't.

I know it's the only definition that works for you but unfortunately for you that doesn't make it true

Woah there fella, calling people liars is pretty damn extreme. I have moderate muslim friends and they most definitely ignore parts of the text. For you to say that the majority don't is a pretty large claim, one that I'm not sure you can even back up.

 

[Maninthemirror]

Woah there fella, calling people liars is pretty damn extreme. I have moderate muslim friends and they most definitely ignore parts of the text. For you to say that the majority don't is a pretty large claim, one that I'm not sure you can even back up.

It's relatively true especially when most moderate say they don't ignore any part and the response is yes you do as if they know our faith more than us. How ignorant is that
Well chose 1 example of ignoring of text

 

[superseohyun]

Well since most terrorist attacks are done by non Muslims I'd have to agree.

http://thinkprogress.org/world/2015/01/08/3609796/islamist-terrorism-europe/

It's the only logical conclusion really.

yup. i think we should focus the discuss on attacks which aimed to cause mass casualties. Not all terrorism attack. I mean, the eco-terrorist and animal rights extremist are scary too...but they mostly aim at big corporation facilities, not civilian so i guess most people dont fear them as much? And they seems to be able to do 200+ attacks a year according to the europol report.

fascinating read.

 

[ratcliffja]

Islam is as responsible for terrorism as Christianity is for the American slave trade.

Good analogy. Monsters will use any reason to justify their actions, even if they're in direct contrast with the tenets of that religion.

 

[Arrogant Bastard]

It's relatively true especially when most moderate say they don't ignore any part and the response is yes you do as if they know our faith more than us. How ignorant is that
Well chose 1 example of ignoring of text

An easy one, one of my Muslim friends eats bacon.

How ignorant is it for you to speak for all Muslims? I'm not claiming that all Muslims do X, Y, Z. You stated that that the majority of moderate Muslims do not ignore any part of the text. How can you actually claim that? Why is it such a problem to recognize that the Quran has some troubling aspects and it is okay to ignore certain parts. Christians do it, Jews do it, it is pretty much par for the course.

 

[Azih]

don't they we're at war with Islam regardless?

They do but they're very few of them and they're wrong. Why feed an incorrect narrative that they depend on for their recruitment?

.but they mostly aim at big corporation facilities, not civilian so i guess most people dont fear them as much?

Big corporation facilites.... are civillian. People don't fear them as much because the media doesn't report on it as much and they're not easily identifiable with scary brown skin/big beards/NIQABS!

 

[Maninthemirror]

An easy one, one of my Muslim friends eats bacon.

Wait is that your best example? Eating bacon ? Really? Quran says there is no compulsion in religion, right has been separated from wrong. It is up to people to chose. I was looking for a more example Akin to this topic of extremism which is what this is about, not drinking or eating bacon which some of my fiends who are muslim do too. Though I wouldn't call them moderate I would call them liberal muslims

Give me some extremist examples akin to this thread

 

[ShemhazaiX]

As someone who knows plenty of muslims from my sect and others I can tell you its correct . Beheading and stuff in Quran ? Sounds like someone hasn't read the Quran and read it in blogs. Technically all you have to do is read the Quran as a whole to know I'm right

I haven't read the Quran, no. I didn't feel the need to. I know that the Bible endorses execution and I don't mind admitting that I just assumed the Quran did too, what with people complaining that the religion itself endorses all the bad stuff that ISIS does.
Anyway, I'm not talking about the content of the Quran in itself, I'm saying that the small part of the world that you come from does not entail the entirety of the muslim population, and I find what you're saying to be incredibly offensive to muslims all over the world. Muslims in your "Sect" are not going to be like Muslims in a country that's different to yours. Just like hardcore Christians in Texas are not going to be like the hardcore Christians in London or Russia.

It's relatively true especially when most moderate say they don't ignore any part and the response is yes you do as if they know our faith more than us. How ignorant is that
Well chose 1 example of ignoring of text

Well how about out of marriage intercourse?

 

[Maninthemirror]

I haven't read the Quran, no. I didn't feel the need to. I know that the Bible endorses execution and I don't mind admitting that I just assumed the Quran did too, what with people complaining that the religion itself endorses all the bad stuff that ISIS does.
Anyway, I'm not talking about the content of the Quran in itself, I'm saying that the small part of the world that you come from does not entail the entirety of the muslim population, and I find what you're saying to be incredibly offensive to muslims all over the world. Muslims in your "Sect" are not going to be like Muslims in a country that's different to yours. Just like hardcore Christians in Texas are not going to be like the hardcore Christians in London or Russia.

I was born in Pakistan and lived there for 18 years. Where I am came from is where a lot of extremism exists I know the difference.

So far all I have received no example related to extremism that people say muslims ignore. Quran says don't lie. Have I lied before ? I have to admit I have. Please don't give cop out examples. Give examples of substance of extremism that muslims ignore

 

[Arrogant Bastard]

Wait is that your best example? Eating bacon ? Really? Quran says there is no compulsion in religion, right has been separated from wrong. It is up to people to chose. I was looking for a more example Akin to this topic of extremism which is what this is about, not drinking or eating bacon which some of my fiends who are muslim do too. Though I wouldn't call them moderate I would call them liberal muslims

Give me some extremist examples akin to this thread

I was on my phone. How can I give you an extremist examples when my friends are moderate? The general problem here is you are just going to state that X/Y/Z are misinterpreted or that this verse says you cannot do that, no?

 

[Azih]

I haven't read the Quran, no. I didn't feel the need to. I know that the Bible endorses execution and I don't mind admitting that I just assumed the Quran did too, what with people complaining that the religion itself endorses all the bad stuff that ISIS does.

You do see a problem with this train of thought at least right?

 

[Kenshin001]

Majority moderate muslim ignores no part of the text. People who aren't even muslim should stop lying and spreading misinformation when muslims on GAF are right here telling them they don't.

I know it's the only definition that works for you but unfortunately for you that doesn't make it true

Yes they do. The Quran is full of 7th century nonsense. Sex slaves, domestic violence, gender inequality, pedophilia etc.

 

[Maninthemirror]

I was on my phone. How can I give you an extremist examples when my friends are moderate? The general problem here is you are just going to state that X/Y/Z are misinterpreted or that this verse says you cannot do that, no?

Well that's the thing. Educate yourself on Islam and find example of extremism after education youtself on the entirety of Quran

 

[spekkeh]

I think the statement is philosophically problematic at best and incredible dumb at worst. It's even worse than "guns don't kill people, people kill people", because guns exist outside of people, religion literally is people.

 

[Azih]

Yes they do. The Quran is full of 7th century nonsense. Sex slaves, domestic violence, gender inequality, pedophilia etc.

You're not an authority of what is in Islam or isn't.

 

[Maninthemirror]

Yes they do. The Quran is full of 7th century nonsense. Sex slaves, domestic violence, gender inequality, pedophilia etc.

Start with example 1. Sex slaves ? Where is sex slavery in Quran ? On one hand Quran says free a slave and on the other you say sex slaves which is it

 

[cm osi]

nah. terrorism has many factors in it, and religion can easily be one of them. there are lots and lots of people who (unfortunately) can't afford good education and are brought up by their parents with crazy morals. they really do it for religions.

 

[Arrogant Bastard]

Well that's the thing. Educate yourself on Islam and find example of extremism after education youtself on the entirety of Quran

So adultery isn't something that should get a strong punishment?

 

[Air]

I'm curious if people whom are saying no have seen statistics or are arguing from a place of emotion or gut feelings. A simple Google search kind of confirms the presidents case.

 

[Kenshin001]

Start with example 1. Sex slaves ? Where is sex slavery in Quran ? On one hand Quran says free a slave and on the other you say sex slaves which is it

Sura 4:24. You are allowed to marry women captured in battle even if they are already married. This is what ISIS are doing to Yazidis, marrying them off to fighters. I thought that would have been adultery as well but apparently if your right hand possesses them it's OK. Do moderate Muslims still do this? No.

 

[Arrogant Bastard]

Sura 4:24. You are allowed to marry women captured in battle even if they are already married. I thought that would have been adultery as well but apparently if your right hand possesses them it's OK. Do moderate Muslims still do this? No.

They aren't slaves if you marry them bro.

 

[ShemhazaiX]

It's relatively true especially when most moderate say they don't ignore any part and the response is yes you do as if they know our faith more than us. How ignorant is that
Well chose 1 example of ignoring of text

What you said originally: "Majority moderate muslim ignores no part of the text. "

Don't move the goalposts. You said they ignore no part of the text. Now you're saying point out where people ignore the extremist parts of the text. The only reason I joined this discussion was because you said something that was legitimately incorrect.

But if you want to play this game, then I guess I'll google the Quran quotes that definitely seem a bit "extreme":

"Slay them wherever you find them...Idolatry is worse than carnage...Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God's religion reigns supreme." (Surah 2:190-)
"Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends." (Surah 5:51)
"Prophet make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home." (Surah 9:73)

Obviously these quotes are all out of context, but they're what ISIS uses to legitimise their actions so they're at least relevant enough for this discussion. I don't currently have time to go through the entire Quran so forgive me if any of those aren't actually saying what they're saying, but I definitely know Muslims who took Christians as their friends. I also know Muslims who HAVEN'T made war on unbelievers and hypocrites. So that's two examples from me.

 

[PhoenixDark]

You're not an authority of what is in Islam or isn't.

Are you denying the retrograde shit in the Quran? There's plenty in the Bible too.

 

[Arrogant Bastard]

What you said originally: "Majority moderate muslim ignores no part of the text. "

Don't move the goalposts. You said they ignore no part of the text. Now you're saying point out where people ignore the extremist parts of the text. The only reason I joined this discussion was because you said something that was legitimately incorrect.

Ding! We have a winner, it was what made me respond on my phone. It is an absurd statement. This is a text from some 1500 years ago, like the Bible you are going to have parts that you have to ignore or wave off. Christians have done it, why are Muslims (according to Maninthemirror) so unable to do the same. Don't ignore a single part of the text, ok.

 

[Azih]

Are you denying the retrograde shit in the Quran? There's plenty in the Bible too.

I'm saying that neither Kenshin001, or you, are authorities on what is in Islam or is not.

This is not a theological argument, it's a logical one (epistemology probably).

 

[CadetMahoney]

Basically he's saying if they didn't de-stablilize the region in the first place with no aftermath strategy there wouldn't be this group going around killing everyone.

 

[captainnapalm]

Well, stating the obvious, but nice of Obama to do it all the same. Every now and again, traces of the person he once was still emerge. When he's not carrying out the wishes of his evil corporate, banker and military overlords, that is.

It would have been too much to expect him to implicate the powerful interests he serves as creating virtually every single condition that has allowed ISIS to exist and thrive, but hey it's something.

 

[Interfectum]

Well, stating the obvious, but nice of Obama to do it all the same. Every now and again, traces of the person he once was still emerge. When he's not carrying out the wishes of his evil corporate, banker and military overlords, that is.

It would have been too much to expect him to implicate the powerful interests he serves as creating virtually every single condition that has allowed ISIS to exist and thrive, but hey it's something.

Baby steps bro. At least he's saying it.

 

[clem84]

So laughable I'm not even sure where to begin. I guess it's part of his job to say things like that. What choice does he have? It's not like he can afford to say something like "Islam is the enemy!"

 

[David Incorporated Esq.]

So laughable I'm not even sure where to begin. I guess it's part of his job to say things like that. What choice does he have? It's not like he can afford to say something like "Islam is the enemy!"

Again, what good would that do anyway?

 

[clem84]

Again, what good would that do anyway?

It would be horrible. It would make things 100 times worse. Which was kinda my point. He's saying what a president should say.

 

[Stereogatari]

The IRA is not considered a religiously motivated group by Europol.

And that's the crux of the matter here. The IRA are associated with Irish Catholics but are not using religious scripture or fighting on a purely religious basis, they're fighting on an ethnic nationalist basis.

ISIS, Al-Qaeda etc. are clearly fighting on a religious basis, using Islamic rhetoric and symbols. If they were more about Arab nationalism then Islam wouldn't get dragged into the debate, but they aren't.

A good comparison is how the earlier Palestinian militancy was secular and involved Muslims and Christians together, whereas over time it became more and more Islamist in its ideology.

 

[TTUVAPOR]

Religions are some of the scariest things in the world.

 

[ShemhazaiX]

Religions are some of the scariest things in the world.

Nah, religions are nothing to be afraid of. People are what you need to keep your eye on.

 

[Verano]

Religion not responsible?? If anything, it justifies and inspires terrorist actions from believers.

 

[ShemhazaiX]

Religion not responsible?? If anything, it justifies and inspires terrorist actions from believers.

Incorrect. It's used as justification for acts they were already going to do whether they were religious or not. Religion didn't give birth to ISIS, conflict in the Middle East thanks to decades of Western intervention did.

 

[Senoculum]

Just gonna quote this from Crab:

Originally Posted by Crab

Man, Islam is just so clearly to blame for all of the problems in the Middle East. I don't understand why we don't just try and eliminate Islam entirely. I mean, take a look at these verses:



This is absolutely horrific, and we should... oops, slight mistake, these are all from the Bible. Hmm. Right. Uh, that pesky Islam, where was I?

Yes, well, it's clearly only Islam that motivates people to terrorism. If you just take a look at the motivations of pretty much every terrorist movement of the modern era, you'll see they're all Muslims.

- The Naxalites insurgency in India has been responsible for 193 deaths in India last year alone, over half the death toll attributable to terrorism.
- And look at the Rhakine insurgency movement, busy perpetrating a massacre of the ethnic Rohingya people in Burma.
- Plus there's Allah's Resistance Army, which has been responsible for using child soldiers, rape as a weapon of war, massacres, abductions, mutilations, and forced religious comversions.

That alone should be enough evidence that... oh. You mean that those groups are explicitly Communist, Buddhist, and Christian respectively? Well, uh. That doesn't undermine my case, it is definitely still Islam's fault. Even if Islam is comparatively no worse in scripture than other major religions and not the only ideological motivation for terrorism, it still has to be the problem because why else would people become terrorists? It isn't like you see it happen in upstanding Christian countries that uphold Western values - excluding the IRA of course, and the ETA, and Baader-Meinhof, and all those other ones.

I mean, there can't possibly be any other causal factors. The problem is definitely that people take certain elements of Islamic scripts in certain ways, with absolutely no other reason to do so despite the vast flexibility provided by most hadiths. After all:

- Middle Eastern countries don't feature particular oppressed ethnic or religious minority groups, after all they're perfect nation-states, not poorly stitched together cock-ups by the British, French and American powers toward the end of the colonial era. These people have had hundreds of years to ge their act together!
- And there's absolutely no ruthless dictators propped up by Western military donations that use a vast and oppressive security apparatus, right? All the leaders of these countries are clearly consensually established with a broad legitimacy and really are definitely chosen by the people as an act of self-determination and not American puppets.
- There's not any endemic poverty, either, that means that unemployment rates are crippingly high even in areas which are part of the ethnic or religious elite. There's definitely no long-standing class divide dating back to the British and French deliberately trying to create socio-economic gaps between the shayks and the tribesmen to secure their rule. No, people are well-provided for and have little incentive to turn to terrorism.

So, really, Islam must be the key motivator and not just a post hoc justification because no other factors exist, and... oh. You're saying that all of these things are true? Well, uh. I mean. Hmm. Okay, but, one last argument, right, because I'm definitely still right about this "let's focus on Islam" thing.

Most of the factors that apparently exist are endemic and structural, right? They're not easy to fix. Islam, though, we can definitely fix that up. Focusing all of our disgust at Islam will have several postitive effects:

- People have no previously established reason to dislike the West, because the West has never interfered with the area and overthrown popular, elected governments, so why would they dislike us? We're clearly close friends to them and they've value our opinion when we focus all our media attempts on how shitty Islam is.
- People don't really have that much attachment to Islam, either. I mean, it's barely been in the region that long, it's not like there is a 1,500 year legacy of Islam being a presence in the Arabic way of life in an area which tends to conservatism due to the lack of educational opportunities. Definitely, of all the things to focus on, Islam is the easiest to fix because changing a belief system which has motivated people for 1,500 years is easier than attempting aid and development packages.
- People really like it when you insult things which are a close part of their moral system and the way they identify you, so logically if we keep calling out Islam, then people will never become terrorists because they feel their way of life is under threat.

So, really, QED, it's all Islam's fault and Islam is clearly the thing we need to be hating on. They're absolutely barbaric, and kill innocent people in absolutely inhumane ways, so really, we should bomb that shit out of everyone with nukes, because they definitely hide out in areas where there are no innocent communities trapped near by.

What's that you say?

...etc.

Quoting this so more people can read.

Blaming Islam is not only wrong, but it's ineffectual. Obama speaks rationally, and is in the right. You can't abolish the ideologies of a people by raining hellfire, telling them to be agnostic, and in turn, fuelling the perceived hatred and distaste of Islam from the Western powers. That's idiotic.

I also partly blame the media. These insurgents aren't the "largest threat the world has seen." The CIA estimates that ISIS is about 30,000 strong; more people have been killed in the Turkish War of Independence, which was a territorial war. Check out the Roman-Persian conflicts which lasted 700 years. Ideological elements were present, but these were all based on control in the middle eastern frontier.

These people are displaced, have no knowledge of their borders, literally live in caves, their sewers are fucked so they're now shitting in buckets, and the most advanced technology they have are the humvees that were left behind from the US.

These guys are warlords. Not unlike Genghis Khan or Attila the Hun, heck, even the three dynasties of China saw a lot of bloodshed; and even though they're now romanticized, these dudes wiped out entire villages.

Look, I want these fuckers to get off our planet. My heart gets torn when they commit atrocities within our allied nations. And it pisses me off when our own civilians, your neighbour, our friends, can even consider training under these fucks. But we're stuck in an infinite loop if we keep carpet bombing their homes and cattle.

We need to think strategically, and part of the strategy is not convincing ourselves that the terrorist's sole purpose is to justify their religion.

 

[SquiddyCracker]

How very diplomatic of Mr. Barack Hussein Obama.

In all seriousness, it is nice to see some levelheaded responses to the muslims extremist terror. We should not abandon that which defines us, our freedom, in order to deal with them - and trying to limit religious freedom is a sure-way of playing into the terrorists agenda.

 

[ShemhazaiX]

Quoting this so more people can read.

Blaming Islam is not only wrong, but it's ineffectual. Obama speaks rationally, and is in the right. You can't abolish the ideologies of a people by raining hellfire, telling them to be agnostic, and in turn, fuelling the perceived hatred and distaste of Islam from the Western powers. That's idiotic.

I also partly blame the media. These insurgents aren't the "largest threat the world has seen." The CIA estimates that ISIS is about 30,000 strong; more people have been killed in the Turkish War of Independence, which was a territorial war. Check out the Roman-Persian conflicts which lasted 700 years. Ideological elements were present, but these were all based on control in the middle eastern frontier.

These people are displaced, have no knowledge of their borders, literally live in caves, their sewers are fucked so they're now shitting in buckets, and the most advanced technology they have are the humvees that were left behind from the US.

These guys are warlords. Not unlike Genghis Khan or Attila the Hun, heck, even the three dynasties of China saw a lot of bloodshed; and even though they're now romanticized, these dudes wiped out entire villages.

Look, I want these fuckers to get off our planet. My heart gets torn when they commit atrocities within our allied nations. And it pisses me off when our own civilians, your neighbour, our friends, can even consider training under these fucks. But we're stuck in an infinite loop if we keep carpet bombing their homes and cattle.

We need to think strategically, and part of the strategy is not convincing ourselves that the terrorist's sole purpose is to justify their religion.

Thank you for reposting that. People really need to stop ragging on Islam like it's the cause of terrorism. I guess it's easier than acknowledging that it's the Wests fault that so many people in the Middle East have had a rough time for the last century or so.

 

[Verano]

Incorrect. It's used as justification for acts they were already going to do whether they were religious or not. Religion didn't give birth to ISIS, conflict in the Middle East thanks to decades of Western intervention did.

So Isis peeps aren't Muslims? at all? Also you agree they DO justify their killings in the name of God. Thank you for proving my point

 

[HiredN00bs]

Except religion is pretty much the only thing anyone ever focuses on regarding terrorism.

Maybe religion is part of the equation, but at some point we need to look at the other parts that make up the equation too.

Of course speaking in absolutes is wrong, and I don't think most people on either side of this discussion are trying to do that, but I would personally argue that there is far too much focus on religion in general.

People aren't radicalised because they happened to make a error reading the Quran. They're radicalized because they're interpreting what they want the Quran to say. Non-radicalized christians interpret what they want the bible to say too, focusing on positive messages everyone could agree with. There are plenty of people arguing that the bible is either neutral or for gay marriage.

It's not just religion either. I mean look at how people interpret the constitution, and what the founding fathers wanted out of it. Everyone has their own interpretations, which are mostly based on their personal ideology from their own life experiences.

Maybe religion does amplify it in particularly bad ways, by virtue of it being portrayed as above all things, but that doesn't remove the conditions there from the start which are making people want to interpret those texts in such terrible ways.

It's those conditions outside of religion that need to be explored in more detail, but that doesn't happen because of things like this, where Obama simply saying terrorists don't represent a religion faces backlash.

I don't agree with this assessment simply based on my own experience. An unwavering belief in Christianity absolutely twisted my perception of the world, especially considering that I was raised in it from infancy. Asserting that the Christian idea of god cannot exist fundamentally righted so many aspects of my philosophy. This is the only life we get. Morals are our responsibility. Empathy is our greatest virtue. Religion played a huge role in screwing up the way I think and necessarily the way I treated people and the ignorant bigoted messages I pushed.

I understand why someone would martyr themselves and want to kill their enemies. I believed strongly enough so as to be willing to martyr myself, if push came to shove. Realizing that religion is bullshit after genuinely living it is a transformative, life-changing experience.

I absolutely recognize that terrorism is fueled by many factors. However, I believe that if you remove the religious factor, the concept of suicide bombings and righteous murder and holy war lose a lot of steam.

 

[ShemhazaiX]

So Isis peeps aren't Muslims? at all? Also you agree they DO justify their killings in the name of God. Thank you for proving my point

I am English, I don't like sports. Therefore no English people like sports. QED.

God told me to write that snarky response. My religion justifies my snark. I definitely didn't write a snarky response because you completely missed the point of my argument, no sir.


Snark over. It was mostly to demonstrate my point that using religion to justify your actions is not the same as religion being the reason you're doing something. I hope that was simple enough for you. I can understand that abstract stuff such as "reasoning" can be difficult for people. But hang in there!

Ok, maybe the snark wasn't over. :[

 

[Maninthemirror]

So adultery isn't something that should get a strong punishment?

Have you read what the Punishment is?
1. The adultery act has to be fully committed, and I mean penetration
2. four witnesses should witness the actual penetration as it is happening
3. Each of the four witnesses should have be with the best moral characters of society, dont lie, dont cheat, always tell the truth, dont coerce, have not hurt anyone morally, spiritually or physically, are righteous and good.
4. These four witnesses exist in a society where such four witnesses each are the norm not the exception.

you are refering to an essentially PURE society described above which do you find existent today? No. In that completely pure society if adultery happens the chances of the act happen would be astronomically low, the chances of 4 witnesses witnessing the act of penetration happening is then even exponentially higher to point of virtually impossible today and improbable in a pure islamic society

Sura 4:24. You are allowed to marry women captured in battle even if they are already married. This is what ISIS are doing to Yazidis, marrying them off to fighters. I thought that would have been adultery as well but apparently if your right hand possesses them it's OK. Do moderate Muslims still do this? No.

number 1, you are saying ISIS war is Islamic in nature, as they are transgressors which is against the Quranic teaching, their war is not Islamic as a result. secondly they captured women and men from battle in the Quran are the Quraish and the tribes attacking Muslims after battle when Islam was under existential threat from their attacks. Daesh are only fighting an existential battle by being transgressors for themselves not Islam's survival which is where all the defensive battle verses are derived from. lastly to your point. Quran explicitly states that any woman cannot be forced into marriage. The marriage has be by mutual consent and thus without coercion thus it is also another black mark on Daesh's legacy where they are forcing women into marriage or killing women who dont marry them in an unislamic war where they unfairly capture women and children

also during the time of Holy Prophet there were no slaves but war captives which were freed after a peace treaty was struck. marriage wasnt forced and people were freed en-masse from captivity after battles. just an fyi

What you said originally: "Majority moderate muslim ignores no part of the text. "

Don't move the goalposts. You said they ignore no part of the text. Now you're saying point out where people ignore the extremist parts of the text. The only reason I joined this discussion was because you said something that was legitimately incorrect.

But if you want to play this game, then I guess I'll google the Quran quotes that definitely seem a bit "extreme":

"Slay them wherever you find them...Idolatry is worse than carnage...Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God's religion reigns supreme." (Surah 2:190-)
"Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends." (Surah 5:51)
"Prophet make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home." (Surah 9:73)

Obviously these quotes are all out of context, but they're what ISIS uses to legitimise their actions so they're at least relevant enough for this discussion. I don't currently have time to go through the entire Quran so forgive me if any of those aren't actually saying what they're saying, but I definitely know Muslims who took Christians as their friends. I also know Muslims who HAVEN'T made war on unbelievers and hypocrites. So that's two examples from me.

1. Slay them wherever you find them:

Obviously you refer to 2:192
[2:192] And kill them wherever you meet them and drive them out from where they have driven you out; for persecution is worse than killing. And fight them not in, and near, the Sacred Mosque until they fight you therein. But if they fight you, then fight them: such is the requital for the disbelievers.
and 1 verse before
[2:191] And fight in the cause of Allah against those who fight against you, but do not transgress. Surely, Allah loves not the transgressors.

pretttyyyyyyyy clear dont you think and it applies to the Quraish and Tribes who attacked muslims where muslims were fighting an existential battle

in this verse you obviously overlook the condition....right...there....

2. Idolatory is worse than carnage. again, the word Fitnah refers to persecution in Arabic linquistic in the verse above. its "Persecution is worse than killing" NOT idolatory is worse than killing. this refers to the fact that muslims were persecuted, killed and attacked for believing.

3. obviously you refer to verse 2:194
[2:194] And fight them until there is no persecution, and religion is freely professed for Allah. But if they desist, then remember that no hostility is allowed except against the aggressors.

Again proving that its not idolatary with the word Fitnah, its persecution, proof? see the sequence.

And fight them until there is no persecution, and religion is FREELY professed for Allah. and again....just to counter your point it says again. if they desist persecution, then remember there is no hostility except against aggressors. What is the correct arabic term which goes along with aggression. is it persecution or idolatary...common sense man, common sense.

4. next one refers to
[5:52] O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. And whoso among you takes them for friends is indeed one of them. Verily, Allah guides not the unjust people.

now if you pick and chose verses, you will believe it says dont take jews and christians as a friend. if you read the Quran itself. thats not what it says

Quran says "Allah forbids you NOT, respect those who have not fought against you on the account of your religion and who have not driven you forth from your homes, that you be kind to them and act equitably towards them, Surely Allah loves those who are Equitable. Quran 60:9

Thus the verse 5:52 ONLY applies to those Christians and Jews who go to war against you because of your faith with the intention of eliminating your faith

5. [9:73] O Prophet, strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites. And be severe to them. Their abode is Hell, and an evil destination it is.

if you read this one could assume it means strive against disbelievers and hypocrities on a base level . that is IF you ignore verses 9:1-9:13 as well as the verse right after this

[9:74] They swear by Allah that they said nothing, but they did certainly use blasphemous language, and disbelieved after they had embraced Islam. And they meditated that which they could not attain. And they cherished hatred only because Allah and His Messenger had enriched them out of His bounty. So if they repent, it will be better for them; but if they turn away, Allah will punish them with a grievous punishment in this world and the Hereafter, and they shall have neither friend nor helper in the earth.

9:73 refers to those who say they are Muslim but act anything like how a Muslim should. you could say they refer to Daesh themselves.

Quran says the worst people in the world are hypocrites. This would mean as per Quran, Daesh are the worst people in the world








next....

 

[Maninthemirror]

Religion not responsible?? If anything, it justifies and inspires terrorist actions from believers.

but the first muslim terrorist organization in reality was born in 1960s. 1400 years after islam...

 

[spekkeh]

Incorrect. It's used as justification for acts they were already going to do whether they were religious or not. Religion didn't give birth to ISIS, conflict in the Middle East thanks to decades of Western intervention did.

Nonsense, nothing binds the 20,000 westerners who are fighting for ISIS except for Islam.

 

[Maninthemirror]

Nonsense, nothing binds the 20,000 westerners who are fighting for ISIS except for Islam.

20,000 fighters out of how many?