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[Irobot82]

I'm not sure what your point is. TM was looking at houses while walking home in an unfamiliar neighborhood

When previous people in that neighborhood who fit his description were also looking in houses right before they broke into them and stole them.

 

[Shrennin]

Getting treated as a possible criminal is dehumanizing. Getting pulled over or confronted by police is scary, especially when you've done nothing to warrant getting pulled over. Even in the genuinely non-prejudiced situations, using a person's appearance to determine your own actions can be harmful to them and it perpetuates stereotypes upon which people act. It can make the victims of profiling either live in fear of being seen that way or they figure they may as well live up to that stereotype. We can't use race/appearance to guide our actions 100 percent impartially and when those descriptions on the news aren't specific, they make people paranoid of anyone remotely fitting that descriptions. That's the way it is, but that's not okay.

The thing is, I agree. I thought I said that the potential criminal first had to justify it with their behavior. If I didn't, then I apologize.

What do the reasons matter when the end result is harassment and death?

In the end, the reasons don't matter. A 17 year old kid is dead.

Like I said, my original assumption when entering this topic and reading the first page or two was that we were talking about the problem of racial profiling exclusively in regard to black people. I was originally trying to argue, albeit poorly, that I don't think Zimmerman had an agenda against black people specifically.

I'm on my phone so I'm kinda rushing my arguments, which is probably not helping. =P

 

[Dude Abides]

When previous people in that neighborhood who fit his description were also looking in houses right before they broke into them and stole them.

Where did you read this?

 

[soundscream]

When previous people in that neighborhood who fit his description were also looking in houses right before they broke into them and stole them.

 

[Beerman462]

All of that after he was obviously following Martin which couldn've elicited defensive behavior; Martin could've been trying to lose Zimmerman because he was scared and didn't want to lead a stranger back to his house where his little brother was.

"Confirmation bias" is where someone has a preconceived notion of a situation/person and then, consciously or subconsciously, looks for only evidence to support that notion. We don't know whether Matin had his hand in his waistband (not proof of wrongdoing), was actually walking toward Zimmerman.

That "chased donw" comment I made was me asking if that's what it takes to justify someone being afraid or feeling threatened by someone coming after them.

The answer is "no," by the way. Zimmerman followed him; since his truck didn't have a a cloaking device built in, Martin probably noticed him and was freaked out. The following doesn't have to be extremely obvious to be creepy, disconcerting behavior.

You first brought up "running him down." I first mentioned "chased down" as a general example.

I know if someone was following me in a truck I would get freaked the fuck out and try to get away too.

 

[Epsilon-delta]

Where did you read this?

The same where he read that TM started the fight by jumping Zimmerman.

 

[Irobot82]

Hehe my bad. Stole objects in the house.

 

[thefro]

Some great comments from President Obama today.

If you read the whole thing, there's very little to seriously criticize about it. It's very balanced.

 

[Irobot82]

Where did you read this?

The woman who testified at the trial about her house getting broke into.

 

[Enzom21]

i don't get it is obama saying that he was a DANGEROUS CRIMINAL 35 years ago???

Trayvon Martin was a dangerous criminal?

 

[casabolg]

Criminals confirmed for efficient.

Trayvon Martin was a dangerous criminal?

Assault skittles.

 

[IpsoFacto]

No offense, Mr. President but there are two things that stand out from your statement in the OP:

"ME, ME, ME, ME!" -> Attention seeking and personalizing the event as if it were your own tragedy feels more like a PR stunt than a genuine concern.

As far as lecturing goes, you were in Rev. Jeremiah Wright's Church for several years and Wright was clearly a racist baiter and agitator, so... no dice.

 

[Cyan]

Furhter, lets assume you don't like some racist being in a cafeteria talking about all sorts of sick shit about Trayvon, but doing so to himself. If you confront him and he starts a fight with the intent to kick your ass in a way that could seriously damage you do you not have the right to use weapons to defend yourself? And if that defending kills the man, should you be to blame for that self defense and for causing the mess, since you have a deliberate bias against racist people?

Not trying to make racist people look good in any way, just trying to make a unique situation with the same moral principle to it.

I don't think that's quite the same.

How about: I see someone defending Zimmerman in an argument, and running down Martin as "not an innocent angel." Aha! I happen to know that this is something that many racists also do! So I assume this person is racist and start following them around, and call up the PeeCee thought police. Then the person gets weirded out by my following them, we have an altercation where it's not entirely clear who started it, and I permaban their account.

Also I kill them.

 

[Dude Abides]

The woman who testified at the trial about her house getting broke into.

She said the burglar was looking in her house right before breaking in? I didn't catch that part of her testimony.

Also, you said people, not one person.

 

[Mr_Antimatter]

No offense, Mr. President but there are two things that stand out from your statement in the OP:

"ME, ME, ME, ME!" -> Attention seeking and personalizing the event as if it were your own tragedy feels more like a PR stunt than a genuine concern.

As far as lecturing goes, you were in Rev. Jeremiah Wright's Church for several years and Wright was clearly a racist baiter and agitator, so... no dice.

Eh? Do you have any proof of that second one? Or hell, what's wrong with the first one?

 

[TheLaughingStock]

Trayvon Martin was a dangerous criminal?

He did marijuana. Clearly, a violent thug.

 

[soundscream]

She said the burglar was looking in her house right before breaking in? I didn't catch that part of her testimony.

Also, you said people, not one person.

2 guys ringing the doorbell I believe.

 

[Irobot82]

She said the burglar was looking in her house right before breaking in? I didn't catch that part of her testimony.

Also, you said people, not one person.

Dang dude do some googling. Several refences here

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...nity-was-on-edge-before-trayvon-shooting.html

 

[sangreal]

When previous people in that neighborhood who fit his description were also looking in houses right before they broke into them and stole them.

Looking at houses and looking in windows are not the same thing

 

[Irobot82]

Looking at houses and looking in windows are not the same thing

really.......

 

[Dude Abides]

Dang dude do some googling. Several refences here

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...nity-was-on-edge-before-trayvon-shooting.html

Dang dude that article doesn't support your claim.

 

[ivysaur12]

really.......

Yes, really. Was he up at the house, snooping in the window? Or was he just idly looking around from the sidewalk? Was he even looking at the houses, or was it just confirmation bias from Zimmerman? Trayvon wasn't doing anything wrong, so, I'm inclined to believe he wasn't actually "snooping" at all.

 

[soundscream]

really.......

Yes.

When I take walks at night and I sometimes look at the houses on my block, so I guess im a suspect as well for a B&E

 

[Angelus Errare]

Trayvon Martin was a dangerous criminal?

If McGyver can turn a paperclip into a bomb, then black thugs on weed can turn a pack of skittles and some tea into WMDs.

 

[sangreal]

really.......

Yes, I look at houses all the time when I'm walking down the street. Especially when I don't know where I'm going. I've never done what Olivia's burglar did (for example), which is walk up to the house and look inside and ring the doorbell

 

[Irobot82]

Dang dude that article doesn't support your claim.

Three weeks before Martin’s death another Twin Lakes resident arrived home to discover a kitchen window open and a laptop and gold necklaces missing. Two witnesses said they saw a young black man standing nearby, but they did not see the man break into the home, according to a police report. One witness said he believed it was the same man who had stolen his bike. The next day officers responding to a call confronted three black men and one white man on bikes near the neighborhood. The same witnesses identified one of the men as the same man they saw near the burglarized home. The officers found the laptop in the man's backpack.

Last July a rental car was stolen from one townhome along with the car keys, which were inside on a dining room table. The resident awoke in the morning to discover her sliding glass door open. The car was eventually found abandoned. In August a PlayStation and videogames were stolen from another townhome. In September someone vandalized a townhome under construction. In December someone broke into a foreclosed townhome, stopped up a toilet and started the water running. According to a police report, the water flooded the bedroom and caused drywall in the garage to collapse.


Yeah lovely neighborhood with no past crimes.

 

[Sex]

Trayvon Martin was a dangerous criminal?

Is beating somebody up not a crime? Is it only shooting in self defense that's a crime?

 

[Dubbedinenglish]

Yes, really. Was he up at the house, snooping in the window? Or was he just idly looking around from the sidewalk? Was he even looking at the houses, or was it just confirmation bias from Zimmerman? Trayvon wasn't doing anything wrong, so, I'm inclined to believe he wasn't actually "snooping" at all.

He was clearly using his Zulu warrior X-ray vision to see inside jewelry boxes from the sidewalk.

 

[Epsilon-delta]

really.......

Yes really. Someone can admire a house without looking inside the windows. I can't believe this is even a discussion.

 

[ivysaur12]

He was clearly using his Zulu warrior X-ray vision to see inside jewelry boxes from the sidewalk.

Forgot, my bad.

 

[User 100115]

Is beating somebody up not a crime? Is it only shooting in self defense that's a crime?

Is punching someone who's threatening you a crime? Is fighting back against someone with a weapon when you are in fear of your life a crime?

 

[casabolg]

I don't think that's quite the same.

How about: I see someone defending Zimmerman in an argument, and running down Martin as "not an innocent angel." Aha! I happen to know that this is something that many racists also do! So I assume this person is racist and start following them around, and call up the PeeCee thought police. Then the person gets weirded out by my following them, we have an altercation where it's not entirely clear who started it, and I permaban their account

I don't feel that's entirely fitting either, since that deals with more of keeping the peace which is your job as the mod and the aggression on an internet forum and the will to not join in on a stupid argument is far saner than saying a person is at fault because they defended their physical self from harm that was initially directed upon them. Beyond that I'm concerned with using this logic onto cases like this because in other cases you may potentially jail innocent people purely because you don't know. Maimonides' "It is better and more satisfactory to acquit a thousand guilty persons than to put a single innocent one to death." line is a very debatable point and it's been fought to death.

Also I kill them.

Haha, that caught me off guard.

 

[Dude Abides]

Three weeks before Martin’s death another Twin Lakes resident arrived home to discover a kitchen window open and a laptop and gold necklaces missing. Two witnesses said they saw a young black man standing nearby, but they did not see the man break into the home, according to a police report. One witness said he believed it was the same man who had stolen his bike. The next day officers responding to a call confronted three black men and one white man on bikes near the neighborhood. The same witnesses identified one of the men as the same man they saw near the burglarized home. The officers found the laptop in the man's backpack.

Last July a rental car was stolen from one townhome along with the car keys, which were inside on a dining room table. The resident awoke in the morning to discover her sliding glass door open. The car was eventually found abandoned. In August a PlayStation and videogames were stolen from another townhome. In September someone vandalized a townhome under construction. In December someone broke into a foreclosed townhome, stopped up a toilet and started the water running. According to a police report, the water flooded the bedroom and caused drywall in the garage to collapse.


Yeah lovely neighborhood with no past crimes.

Move them goalposts.

Your claim was other people were seen looking in houses before they broke into them. Nothing you've cited supports that.

 

[Angelus Errare]

Is punching someone who's threatening you a crime? Is fighting back against someone with a weapon when you are in fear of your life a crime?

Trick question, it depends on what ethnicity they are. You can't fool me fiction I'm on to you! <robertdeniroyou.gif>

 

[Spring-Loaded]

Move them goalposts.

Your claim was other people were seen looking in houses before they broke into them. Nothing you've cited supports that.

It's the same type of thinking that leads to what happened with Zimmerman following Martin.

 

[Sex]

Is punching someone who's threatening you a crime? Is fighting back against someone with a weapon when you are in fear of your life a crime?

I'm pretty sure if Zimmerman had his weapon out Martin wouldn't have been able to ground and pound him, so I'm assuming he acted without seeing the gun. In which case, yeah.

 

[Epsilon-delta]

Move them goalposts.

Your claim was other people were seen looking in houses before they broke into them. Nothing you've cited supports that.

That's what some people do in this thread is move goalposts.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Is beating somebody up not a crime? Is it only shooting in self defense that's a crime?

I love these posts that remove the whole context to try and make a dumb binary point.

I'm pretty sure if Zimmerman had his weapon out Martin wouldn't have been able to ground and pound him, so I'm assuming he acted without seeing the gun. In which case, yeah.

Here's reality for me: when someone is stalking you and it's dark and rainy, you're free to do whatever the fuck you want. Run, beat them up, scream, anything. The way some people are criticizing Martin's every action as if there was a perfect reaction and he missed it are just really revealing.

 

[Sex]

I love these posts that remove the whole context to try and make a dumb binary point.

Yeah because Obama didn't do that at all. "Mah son".

 

[casabolg]

Is punching someone who's threatening you a crime?

Yes, it is if the threat isn't reasonable enough to the court.

Is fighting back against someone with a weapon when you are in fear of your life a crime

Not at all but you have the same problem as above.

Problem is we just have a lack of evidence for this situation to say what was done on either case. You can't just take one person's word. I know it does suck.

 

[GDGF]

Yeah because Obama didn't do that at all. "Mah son" .

Very interesting dialect you put on the "my son" part.

 

[Enzom21]

Yeah because Obama didn't do that at all. "Mah son".

Does Obama speak in that particular vernacular or is that how you think all of us black folk speak?

 

[Sex]

Does Obama speak in that particular vernacular or is that how you think all of us black folk speak?

It's more how outraged rednecks speak but if you want to try and make it a race thing go right on ahead. I think it's more interesting that people immediately try to make it a race thing; basically a "hey mods please ban this guy" cry. I'm a dirty racist; white people don't say "mah" it's purely for black people.

 

[Epsilon-delta]

Yeah because Obama didn't do that at all. "Mah son".

Not a good post junior but whatever.

 

[Order]

It's more how outraged rednecks speak but if you want to try and make it a race thing go right on ahead.

So Obama's an outraged redneck, or you? You're not even making sense anymore.

 

[Jenga]

why didn't you stay out of it?!

 

[GDGF]

You're not even making sense anymore.

People tend to stop making sense when they're scrambling to get out of a corner they've backed themselves into.

 

[Sex]

So Obama's an outraged redneck, or you? You're not even making sense anymore.

"Mah x" is a common phrase on the internet, stop trying to make something out of nothing.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

It's more how outraged rednecks speak but if you want to try and make it a race thing go right on ahead. I think it's more interesting that people immediately try to make it a race thing; basically a "hey mods please ban this guy" cry. I'm a dirty racist; white people don't say "mah" it's purely for black people.

That tends to happen when you say racist things. You knew how that would be perceived. It's not on us that you don't have tact.

"Mah x" is a common phrase on the internet, stop trying to make something out of nothing.

It's mostly associated with "chargin' mah lazers," one of the most racist memes. Stop gaslighting us.

 

[Sex]

Here's reality for me: when someone is stalking you and it's dark and rainy, you're free to do whatever the fuck you want. Run, beat them up, scream, anything. The way some people are criticizing Martin's every action as if there was a perfect reaction and he missed it are just really revealing.

You can be both wrong for following somebody and right for shooting them. Ultimately we don't know exactly what happened and there's a lack of evidence to prove it wasn't in self defense.

That tends to happen when you say racist things. You knew how that would be perceived. It's not on us that you don't have tact.

I have literally never associated "mah" with black people. I associate it with dirty neckbeards on video game message boards crying about mah immersion. I know exactly what you're trying to do though, for what it's worth.