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[Shrennin]

It was based purely on race. Zimmerman didn't know anything about Martin other than his appearance. Zimmerman reached the conclusion that "black = more likely to be a robbber based on recent events" and then followed Martin because of Martin's race. that isn't fair to Martin or anyone who's black. Assuming such about anyone based on the actions of others of the same race is not fair as is based purely on race. Just because there's some BS logic to get to that conclusion doesn't change that.

He was racially profiling based purely on race. That is racist, even if the person doing it doesn't realize it.

Like I said, I'm done with the argument. I already said it was wrong to follow Martin, but I do want to say that if there was a report describing someone that was on the loose committing whatever crime, I don't see anything wrong with trying to identify a criminal by calling 911 and getting them to look into it. News reports could describe someone in their early teens, male, and white wearing a certain type of clothing and all four things would be useful in avoiding and reporting a criminal.

And Zimmerman's account included the behaviors Zimmerman identified. I don't think this was purely about race.

 

[iamshadowlark]

Anybody who finds Obama's speech hurtful is on crack. Likewise anyone who thinks he'll follow through with anything meaningful also is unfortunately.

What could he do? He's not a head of a state anymore, he's the head of state. He doesn't govern state law.

 

[Maximus.]

Hilarious reading people's responses to the President speaking his mind. It's like he can't do that or something. Idiots, haha. Good on him for saying what he did!

 

[Foxy Fox 39]

The dismissive and generally bitter reactions of some people towards Obama's comments really highlight a closing of the mind that has been going on for decades. Race and racism are complex issues that have not gone away, and will not go away. Yet racism today is still seen through the prism or either slavery or the 1960s: beatings, lynchings, blatant segregation. Because most if not all of these major things are not happening in 2013, and because we now have a black president, some seem quite convinced race is no longer an issue. And because of that, race has been swept under a rug. Any discussion of differences among races or racism is liable to be attacked as fostering discontent or ill - as if the mere mention of racism today will suddenly revive it from its deep slumber.

As Obama mentioned, racial profiling is not some long dead practice. It happens every day, every hour in this country. And the Zimmerman case, right or wrong, is seen entirely through that lens by many black people. If a person has spent most of his life being blatantly racially profiled during trips to the corner store, or while walking late at night, it should not come as a surprise that they view Zimmerman confronting Martin as an issue of profiling. After all, Martin went to a corner store and then attempted to go home before being pursued by someone. Zimmerman called 911 and complained about "these assholes" always getting away with crimes. Is it any surprise that black people, specifically black men, identify with Martin? We have been "those assholes" for most of our lives.

The general retort to all of this is that Zimmerman had black friends, and therefore clearly was not racist. Which, again, goes back to the point about racism as a concept being simplified today. Zimmerman never lynched a black person, nor did he refuse to serve a black person at a restaurant - therefore he's clearly not racist. I don't know whether Zimmerman is racist or not. Nor do I believe every white woman who hurriedly crosses the street (in broad daylight) when I'm behind her is racist. But I believe that Zimmerman assumed Martin was up to no good due to who he was: a young black male. Or, a young "dark" male if you want to harp on Zimmerman telling the operator that he thought Martin was black; I think it's safe to say he knew he was not white.

As long as we continue to shrink discussions of race, and get outraged that we're even discussing racism in 2013, we will always have this problem. Racism will always be seen as a double edged sword to many white people: to them, they feel as if they're being accused of something, as if racism is their fault or their grandfather's fault, as if we cannot discuss racism without putting white people on trial. And to those people I would simply say, imagine that feeling of assumed guilt nagging at you every day, every hour, every minute, for years. Decades. Every time you go into a store late at night, or every time you're driving in a nice car, or every time you accidentally lock yourself out your house and are outside looking for the key. Perhaps then you will know how many black people feel to an extent, and why this case is so personal to us.

Boy oh boy.

 

[Gregorn]

I'm not kidding, I only just found out this guy isn't a character from the wire. Whenever I would see the name online I thought it was something about the show lol

The thread title was really confusing, I thought Obama was almost cast.

 

[iamshadowlark]

Boy oh boy.

Expand? Comments like this contribute absolutely nothing, regardless of your intent.

 

[Aristion]

I'm not kidding, I only just found out this guy isn't a character from the wire. Whenever I would see the name online I thought it was something about the show lol

The thread title was really confusing, I thought Obama was almost cast.

LMFAO

this is too funny, and I'm not blaming you

 

[sangreal]

Like I said, I'm done with the argument. I already said it was wrong to follow Martin, but I do want to say that if there was a report describing someone that was on the loose committing whatever crime, I don't see anything wrong with trying to identify a criminal by calling 911 and getting them to look into it. News reports could describe someone in their early teens, male, and white wearing a certain type of clothing and all four things would be useful in avoiding and reporting a criminal.

And Zimmerman's account included the behaviors Zimmerman identified. I don't think this was purely about race.

Nobody was on the loose. Emmanuel Burgess is the one who robbed Zimmerman's friend Olivia Bertalan (and the others). He is the one that Zimmerman previously called the police on that got away. Zimmerman knew him, and Zimmerman knew that he was rearrested on February 6, 20 days before Zimmerman shot Trayvon Martin

 

[Foxy Fox 39]

Expand? Comments like this contribute absolutely nothing, regardless of your intent.

Calm down broham, it's highlighted because I agree.

 

[Choke on the Magic]

What could he do? He's not a head of a state anymore, he's the head of state. He doesn't govern state law.

He opened a can of worms a lot of people don't want opened. Also he can propose bills to be drafted by congress, he has executive orders.

 

[Enzom21]

If mods were half-serious about racism around here, half this fucking board would be banned.

When there is a member here who hasn't been perm'd after writing shit that you would only find on sites like stromfront, you know that is never going to happen.

 

[PhoenixDark]

Anybody who finds Obama's speech hurtful is on crack. Likewise anyone who thinks he'll follow through with anything meaningful also is unfortunately.

I'm conflicted on this. Part of me wonders whether this speech, while obviously very heart felt, was an admission that a civil right's case won't be filed; he tends to be very careful when discussing cases and potential cases, I was surprised at how much he talked about it.

Obama tends to find compromises wherever possible, and perhaps this was him doing that. On one side you have Sharpton/Jackson demanding major action, on the other hand you have people who think nothing should be done. The most concrete, future plan I heard from Obama was supporting and/or creating more programs that work with inner city youth. After school programs, Big Brothers Big Sisters programs, church and neighborhood activities, etc. Obama can get LeBron James, Jay-Z, Denzel Washington, etc to partner together on something big, I'm sure. As he said, it won't be a government plan. But something can be done to decrease violence in the community and win hearts/minds.

 

[Vanillalite]

The dismissive and generally bitter reactions of some people towards Obama's comments really highlight a closing of the mind that has been going on for decades. Race and racism are complex issues that have not gone away, and will not go away. Yet racism today is still seen through the prism or either slavery or the 1960s: beatings, lynchings, blatant segregation. Because most if not all of these major things are not happening in 2013, and because we now have a black president, some seem quite convinced race is no longer an issue. And because of that, race has been swept under a rug. Any discussion of differences among races or racism is liable to be attacked as fostering discontent or ill - as if the mere mention of racism today will suddenly revive it from its deep slumber.

As Obama mentioned, racial profiling is not some long dead practice. It happens every day, every hour in this country. And the Zimmerman case, right or wrong, is seen entirely through that lens by many black people. If a person has spent most of his life being blatantly racially profiled during trips to the corner store, or while walking late at night, it should not come as a surprise that they view Zimmerman confronting Martin as an issue of profiling. After all, Martin went to a corner store and then attempted to go home before being pursued by someone. Zimmerman called 911 and complained about "these assholes" always getting away with crimes. Is it any surprise that black people, specifically black men, identify with Martin? We have been "those assholes" for most of our lives.

The general retort to all of this is that Zimmerman had black friends, and therefore clearly was not racist. Which, again, goes back to the point about racism as a concept being simplified today. Zimmerman never lynched a black person, nor did he refuse to serve a black person at a restaurant - therefore he's clearly not racist. I don't know whether Zimmerman is racist or not. Nor do I believe every white woman who hurriedly crosses the street (in broad daylight) when I'm behind her is racist. But I believe that Zimmerman assumed Martin was up to no good due to who he was: a young black male. Or, a young "dark" male if you want to harp on Zimmerman telling the operator that he thought Martin was black; I think it's safe to say he knew he was not white.

As long as we continue to shrink discussions of race, and get outraged that we're even discussing racism in 2013, we will always have this problem. Racism will always be seen as a double edged sword to many white people: to them, they feel as if they're being accused of something, as if racism is their fault or their grandfather's fault, as if we cannot discuss racism without putting white people on trial. And to those people I would simply say, imagine that feeling of assumed guilt nagging at you every day, every hour, every minute, for years. Decades. Every time you go into a store late at night, or every time you're driving in a nice car, or every time you accidentally lock yourself out your house and are outside looking for the key. Perhaps then you will know how many black people feel to an extent, and why this case is so personal to us.

Best post I've seen on GAF in a long while honestly. Bravo!

 

[Spring-Loaded]

Like I said, I'm done with the argument. I already said it was wrong to follow Martin, but I do want to say that if there was a report describing someone that was on the loose committing whatever crime, I don't see anything wrong with trying to identify a criminal by calling 911 and getting them to look into it. News reports could describe someone in their early teens, male, and white wearing a certain type of clothing and all four things would be useful in avoiding and reporting a criminal.

And Zimmerman's account included the behaviors Zimmerman identified. I don't think this was purely about race.

It's not even an argument; you were mistaken about what counts as racial profiling.

Zimmerman described Martin "looking into houses" and walking too slowly (whatever that means), but we can't know whether Zimmerman noticed those things first or if he first noticed Martin was black. We can't know for sure whether Zimmerman just tried to justify him profiling a black kid with other "suspicious actions," that may or may not have taken place. Was Martin looking around in order to case houses or was he looking over his shoulder because a guy was slowly following behind him in a car? It could be a confirmation bias, or a self-fulfilling prophecy, that perpetuates unfair treatment of individuals.

There was no description of Martin given on the news that Zimmerman was going by. "Black" is not a good enough reason to follow someone or call the cops on them. Being outside at night when there's no such thing as a curfew is not a good enough reason. Wearing a hoodie is not a good enough reason.

Have a good reason beyond a description to call the cops or suspect something of another person. We can't permit doing so based on appearance alone. That isn't okay.

 

[ivysaur12]

The dismissive and generally bitter reactions of some people towards Obama's comments really highlight a closing of the mind that has been going on for decades. Race and racism are complex issues that have not gone away, and will not go away. Yet racism today is still seen through the prism or either slavery or the 1960s: beatings, lynchings, blatant segregation. Because most if not all of these major things are not happening in 2013, and because we now have a black president, some seem quite convinced race is no longer an issue. And because of that, race has been swept under a rug. Any discussion of differences among races or racism is liable to be attacked as fostering discontent or ill - as if the mere mention of racism today will suddenly revive it from its deep slumber.

As Obama mentioned, racial profiling is not some long dead practice. It happens every day, every hour in this country. And the Zimmerman case, right or wrong, is seen entirely through that lens by many black people. If a person has spent most of his life being blatantly racially profiled during trips to the corner store, or while walking late at night, it should not come as a surprise that they view Zimmerman confronting Martin as an issue of profiling. After all, Martin went to a corner store and then attempted to go home before being pursued by someone. Zimmerman called 911 and complained about "these assholes" always getting away with crimes. Is it any surprise that black people, specifically black men, identify with Martin? We have been "those assholes" for most of our lives.

The general retort to all of this is that Zimmerman had black friends, and therefore clearly was not racist. Which, again, goes back to the point about racism as a concept being simplified today. Zimmerman never lynched a black person, nor did he refuse to serve a black person at a restaurant - therefore he's clearly not racist. I don't know whether Zimmerman is racist or not. Nor do I believe every white woman who hurriedly crosses the street (in broad daylight) when I'm behind her is racist. But I believe that Zimmerman assumed Martin was up to no good due to who he was: a young black male. Or, a young "dark" male if you want to harp on Zimmerman telling the operator that he thought Martin was black; I think it's safe to say he knew he was not white.

As long as we continue to shrink discussions of race, and get outraged that we're even discussing racism in 2013, we will always have this problem. Racism will always be seen as a double edged sword to many white people: to them, they feel as if they're being accused of something, as if racism is their fault or their grandfather's fault, as if we cannot discuss racism without putting white people on trial. And to those people I would simply say, imagine that feeling of assumed guilt nagging at you every day, every hour, every minute, for years. Decades. Every time you go into a store late at night, or every time you're driving in a nice car, or every time you accidentally lock yourself out your house and are outside looking for the key. Perhaps then you will know how many black people feel to an extent, and why this case is so personal to us.

You get a lot of shit since the election, but this is one of the greatest posts I've seen on GAF. Bravo.

 

[Dibbz]

Calm down broham, it's highlighted because I agree.

Boy oh boy.

 

[Irobot82]

Have a good reason beyond a description to call the cops or suspect something of another person. We can't permit doing so based on appearance alone. That isn't okay.

Isn't several home burglaries in his area that fit the description of Martin a good reason to call?

 

[Spring-Loaded]

Isn't several home burglaries in his area that fit the description of Martin a good reason to call?

What's that description? What's worse: someone being chased down (or worse) for doing nothing wrong based on characteristics they can't control or someone who's actually guilty not getting the cops called on them when they're not doing anything wrong? Wouldn't it be better (not ideal, but better) to not force innocent people to fear going outside past 8:00 p.m.?

 

[Byakuya769]

The dismissive and generally bitter reactions of some people towards Obama's comments really highlight a closing of the mind that has been going on for decades. Race and racism are complex issues that have not gone away, and will not go away. Yet racism today is still seen through the prism or either slavery or the 1960s: beatings, lynchings, blatant segregation. Because most if not all of these major things are not happening in 2013, and because we now have a black president, some seem quite convinced race is no longer an issue. And because of that, race has been swept under a rug. Any discussion of differences among races or racism is liable to be attacked as fostering discontent or ill - as if the mere mention of racism today will suddenly revive it from its deep slumber.

As Obama mentioned, racial profiling is not some long dead practice. It happens every day, every hour in this country. And the Zimmerman case, right or wrong, is seen entirely through that lens by many black people. If a person has spent most of his life being blatantly racially profiled during trips to the corner store, or while walking late at night, it should not come as a surprise that they view Zimmerman confronting Martin as an issue of profiling. After all, Martin went to a corner store and then attempted to go home before being pursued by someone. Zimmerman called 911 and complained about "these assholes" always getting away with crimes. Is it any surprise that black people, specifically black men, identify with Martin? We have been "those assholes" for most of our lives.

The general retort to all of this is that Zimmerman had black friends, and therefore clearly was not racist. Which, again, goes back to the point about racism as a concept being simplified today. Zimmerman never lynched a black person, nor did he refuse to serve a black person at a restaurant - therefore he's clearly not racist. I don't know whether Zimmerman is racist or not. Nor do I believe every white woman who hurriedly crosses the street (in broad daylight) when I'm behind her is racist. But I believe that Zimmerman assumed Martin was up to no good due to who he was: a young black male. Or, a young "dark" male if you want to harp on Zimmerman telling the operator that he thought Martin was black; I think it's safe to say he knew he was not white.

As long as we continue to shrink discussions of race, and get outraged that we're even discussing racism in 2013, we will always have this problem. Racism will always be seen as a double edged sword to many white people: to them, they feel as if they're being accused of something, as if racism is their fault or their grandfather's fault, as if we cannot discuss racism without putting white people on trial. And to those people I would simply say, imagine that feeling of assumed guilt nagging at you every day, every hour, every minute, for years. Decades. Every time you go into a store late at night, or every time you're driving in a nice car, or every time you accidentally lock yourself out your house and are outside looking for the key. Perhaps then you will know how many black people feel to an extent, and why this case is so personal to us.

Beautifully written.

 

[Enzom21]

Isn't several home burglaries in his area that fit the description of Martin a good reason to call?

Black and male? So he should call the cops all on black males? Since most serial killers are white males is it okay for me to assume all white males are serial killers? How about mass shootings? Most of those have been committed by white males so...

It always seems like people are okay with profiling as long as they don't fit the "profile".

 

[Cyan]

If mods were half-serious about racism around here, half this fucking board would be banned.

That's not how it works. If you see someone being overtly racist, please, by all means PM a mod. Implicit racism... is much trickier.

When there is a member here who hasn't been perm'd after writing shit that you would only find on sites like stromfront, you know that is never going to happen.

Again, if something like this is happening, please PM a mod. We don't see everything, so it's possible we've just missed it.

If you guys would like to discuss further, please PM me rather than responding in-thread.

 

[Irobot82]

What's that description? What's worse: someone being chased down (or worse) for doing nothing wrong based on characteristics they can't control or someone who's actually guilty not getting the cops called on them when they're not doing anything wrong? Wouldn't it be better (not ideal, but better) to not force innocent people to fear going outside past 8:00 p.m.?

Chased down? What was Zimmerman literally about to run him over? Why didn't Martin say, hey man what's up? Or what about the 4 minutes in between where he could have went home? Instead he decides to jump him?4

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

I'm going to call in every person I see that looks like George Zimmerman. Fuck getting murdered.

Why didn't Martin say, hey man what's up?

You people. My God.

 

[Appleman]

Black and male? So he should call the cops all on black males? Since most serial killers are white males is it okay for me to assume all white males are serial killers? How about mass shootings? Most of those have been committed by white males so...

Not that I agree with him, but this is a bad retort. If there were reports of serial killing in the area by a white male, I'd be extra wary of unknown white males around my neighbourhood

 

[Irobot82]

Black and male? So he should call the cops all on black males? Since most serial killers are white males is it okay for me to assume all white males are serial killers? How about mass shootings? Most of those have been committed by white males so...

No but here Zimmerman said he saw "Hey, we've had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there's a real suspicious guy-- it's Retreat View Circle. The best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle. This guy looks like he's up to no good, or he's on drugs or something. It's raining and he's just walking around, looking about."

Not that I fully agree with him, but this is a bad retort. If there were reports of serial killing in the area by a white male, I'd be extra wary of unknown white males around my neighbourhood

+1

 

[Shrennin]

It's not even an argument; you were mistaken about what counts as racial profiling.

I was not mistaken about what counts as racial profiling. I am fully aware what racial profiling is way before this topic or the Trayvon Martin killing.

I also know no one was on the loose but I was clarifying that descriptors of people are okay to use when the behaviors of a person match that description. This wasn't the case with Zimmerman, just my own clarification on my view. I think Zimmerman wanted to take the law into his own hands more than anything else and was on a power trip as "captain of the watch" and do Martin was a victim of that delusion.

 

[Imm0rt4l]

- Black people make up 50% of all inmates in prison even though we only make up 12% of the country’s population.

- Black people are incarcerated at 6 times the rate of white people.

- 5 times as many white people use drugs as black people, yet black people are sent to prison 10 times more for drug offenses.

- Black people serve the same amount of time in prison for non-violent drug offenses (4.8 years) as white people do for a violent offenses (5.1 years).

- Black people are 12% of all drug users, but they are 32% of all people arrested for drug possession.

- In 2002 black people constituted 80% of all people sent to jail for crack cocaine laws, even though 66% of people that due crack cocaine are white or “Hispanic”.

- In New Jersey 15% of all drivers are black, yet 42% of cars pulled over for a traffic violation are black. And 72% of all drivers arrested for a traffic violation are black.

- In New Jersey 77% of all traffic car searches were of minorities.

- In Maryland 17% of drivers are black, but 70% stopped and searched were black. These stats are where the term “driving while black” come from.

- But here’s the catch, whites who were pulled over were more likely to have illegal drugs in their cars. In New Jersey whites were 2 times more likely than blacks and 5 times more likely than Latinos to have illegal drugs in their cars.

- In America black people are convicted to death penalty sentences more than white people even though they committed the same crime.

- And also in America of all criminals that have been executed due to the death penalty, 84% of the victims have been white. Only 12% have been black since 1976. Even though 50% of all homicides have black victims.

- Also since 1976, 40% of all people executed were black even though we only make up 12% of the population.

- There have been studies that have shown that people with white “sounding” names get interview call backs quicker and easier than people with black “sounding” names. Examples of the names being: Keisha, Tamika, Latonya, and Ebony. And these resumes were literally the exact same, just different names.

- The names that sounded more white were 50% more likely to get a call back than the ones with black sounding names. The test was done in Boston and Chicago.

- And watch this video where they do a test of black kids and white kids vandalizing a car and what the white people do in response based on race. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQHdbW36XjE


*********************************************************************************

So explain to me again why Obama shouldn't have addressed this particular issue, considering the above stats?

Quoted for posterity

 

[Choke on the Magic]

I'm conflicted on this. Part of me wonders whether this speech, while obviously very heart felt, was an admission that a civil right's case won't be filed; he tends to be very careful when discussing cases and potential cases, I was surprised at how much he talked about it.

Obama tends to find compromises wherever possible, and perhaps this was him doing that. On one side you have Sharpton/Jackson demanding major action, on the other hand you have people who think nothing should be done. The most concrete, future plan I heard from Obama was supporting and/or creating more programs that work with inner city youth. After school programs, Big Brothers Big Sisters programs, church and neighborhood activities, etc. Obama can get LeBron James, Jay-Z, Denzel Washington, etc to partner together on something big, I'm sure. As he said, it won't be a government plan. But something can be done to decrease violence in the community and win hearts/minds.

It has to go beyond that. To me race relations are like a stiched up wound that has never really healed at all. The past two weeks have ripped those stiches out to reveal a big festering problem that was alway there. It makes me sad tbh.

 

[Spring-Loaded]

Chased down? What was Zimmerman literally about to run him over? Why didn't Martin say, hey man what's up? Or what about the 4 minutes in between where he could have went home? Instead he decides to jump him?4

Martin was walking home. The bolded is unsubstantiated; we only have one person's account of that fight (who would've likely gone to jail had he said otherwise).

Do you it's the responsibility of people doing nothing wrong to have to explain why they're outside at any given moment? Do we need to have someone about to run us over to feel as if we're being subjugated? Is it the duty of the innocent person to accommodate the needs/concerns/questions of the vigilante following them?

Why is the onus on Martin to do what's right when he was already doing nothing wrong? Please explain this to me. Please.

I was not mistaken about what counts as racial profiling. I am fully aware what racial profiling is way before this topic or the Trayvon Martin killing.

I also know no one was on the loose but I was clarifying that descriptors of people are okay to use when the behaviors of a person match that description. This wasn't the case with Zimmerman, just my own clarification on my view. I think Zimmerman wanted to take the law into his own hands more than anything else and was on a power trip as "captain of the watch" and do Martin was a victim of that delusion.

Getting treated as a possible criminal is dehumanizing. Getting pulled over or confronted by police is scary, especially when you've done nothing to warrant getting pulled over. Even in the genuinely non-prejudiced situations, using a person's appearance to determine your own actions can be harmful to them and it perpetuates stereotypes upon which people act. It can make the victims of profiling either live in fear of being seen that way or they figure they may as well live up to that stereotype. We can't use race/appearance to guide our actions 100 percent impartially and when those descriptions on the news aren't specific, they make people paranoid of anyone remotely fitting that descriptions. That's the way it is, but that's not okay.

 

[Byakuya769]

Not that I agree with him, but this is a bad retort. If there were reports of serial killing in the area by a white male, I'd be extra wary of unknown white males around my neighbourhood

Riiiiiight. Reports weeks and months ago means you'd call in and follow a random white guy?

 

[Irobot82]

Do you it's the responsibility of people doing nothing wrong to have to explain why they're outside at any given moment? Do we need to have someone about to run us over to feel as if we're being subjugated? Is it the duty of the innocent person to accommodate the needs/concerns/questions of the vigilante following them?
Why is the onus on Martin to do what's right when he was already doing nothing wrong? Please explain this to me. Please.

Zimmerman: Yeah, now he's coming towards me.

Zimmerman: He's got his hand in his waistband. And he's a black male.

Zimmerman: Something's wrong with him. Yup, he's coming to check me out, he's got something in his hands, I don't know what his deal is.

He wasn't running anyone over. There is literally no evidence to back that up.

 

[The Librarian]

President Obama decided Thursday that he would more fully and publicly address the acquittal of George Zimmerman in the shooting death of Trayvon Martin, a White House aide told TPM.

"The president had been talking to friends and family about the verdict and their observations," the aide said. "And late afternoon or early evening yesterday, he told a handful of his advisers that he'd like to speak publicly about it. He thought the timing was right."

Obama had been following reactions to the verdict all around the country since it was handed down, "especially in African-American communities," the aide said.

When he surprised reporters by showing up at the podium Friday at the top of spokesman Jay Carney's press briefing, he brought with him only a couple of hand-written notes on an index card, the aide said.​

More here.

 

[Half and half]

Just finished watching this. There is nothing controversial about anything he said. And he's completely right.

 

[kehs]

Zimmerman: Yeah, now he's coming towards me.

Zimmerman: He's got his hand in his waistband. And he's a black male.

Zimmerman: Something's wrong with him. Yup, he's coming to check me out, he's got something in his hands, I don't know what his deal is.

His truck was just a short run from him, why didn't he run back to his truck and leave?

 

[soundscream]

Not that I agree with him, but this is a bad retort. If there were reports of serial killing in the area by a white male, I'd be extra wary of unknown white males around my neighbourhood

So how long is it to ok to racially profile, is there a specific cut off date or is ok to do it as long as a person deems necessary?

 

[Irobot82]

His truck was just a short run from him, why didn't he run back to his truck and leave?

Why did he have to. Reading the rest of the transcript it wasn't until Martin run that Zimmerman tries to follow him. Then the operator tells him to stop, you can hear his breath calm down.

 

[User 100115]

His truck was just a short run from him, why didn't he run back to his truck and leave?

He said all that while still in his truck. After Martin passes by without incident is when he gets out to follow him.

 

[JDSN]

Not that I agree with him, but this is a bad retort. If there were reports of serial killing in the area by a white male, I'd be extra wary of unknown white males around my neighbourhood

Christ, you don't need to lie to make a point.

 

[Irobot82]

So how long is it to ok to racially profile, is there a specific cut off date or is ok to do it as long as a person deems necessary?

Depends on the circumstances. If there is a serial killer and they catch him, it's probably safe to assume there isn't another one. If there are SEVERAL break-ins it's probably not safe to assume everything is fine. And it isn't racially profiling. It's looking at the crimes and then seeing people act suspiciously who fit the description of the previous crimes.

 

[sangreal]

Not that I agree with him, but this is a bad retort. If there were reports of serial killing in the area by a white male, I'd be extra wary of unknown white males around my neighbourhood

This is ridiculous. First of all, nobody is ever going to tell you to be on the lookout for "a white guy," Or "a black guy" for that matter. But let's pretend they did. You'd be ridiculous to suspect every white person you see. You'd be looking for suspicious white guys. Trayvon Martin was not doing anything suspicious. He was just a black guy walking down the street. Apparently that means "looks like he's up to no good, or he's on drugs or something"

 

[Vermillion]

If you do can you at least promise it will be interracial porn?

Interracial lesbian or?

More on-topic:

The dismissive and generally bitter reactions of some people towards Obama's comments really highlight a closing of the mind that has been going on for decades. Race and racism are complex issues that have not gone away, and will not go away. Yet racism today is still seen through the prism or either slavery or the 1960s: beatings, lynchings, blatant segregation. Because most if not all of these major things are not happening in 2013, and because we now have a black president, some seem quite convinced race is no longer an issue. And because of that, race has been swept under a rug. Any discussion of differences among races or racism is liable to be attacked as fostering discontent or ill - as if the mere mention of racism today will suddenly revive it from its deep slumber.

As Obama mentioned, racial profiling is not some long dead practice. It happens every day, every hour in this country. And the Zimmerman case, right or wrong, is seen entirely through that lens by many black people. If a person has spent most of his life being blatantly racially profiled during trips to the corner store, or while walking late at night, it should not come as a surprise that they view Zimmerman confronting Martin as an issue of profiling. After all, Martin went to a corner store and then attempted to go home before being pursued by someone. Zimmerman called 911 and complained about "these assholes" always getting away with crimes. Is it any surprise that black people, specifically black men, identify with Martin? We have been "those assholes" for most of our lives.

The general retort to all of this is that Zimmerman had black friends, and therefore clearly was not racist. Which, again, goes back to the point about racism as a concept being simplified today. Zimmerman never lynched a black person, nor did he refuse to serve a black person at a restaurant - therefore he's clearly not racist. I don't know whether Zimmerman is racist or not. Nor do I believe every white woman who hurriedly crosses the street (in broad daylight) when I'm behind her is racist. But I believe that Zimmerman assumed Martin was up to no good due to who he was: a young black male. Or, a young "dark" male if you want to harp on Zimmerman telling the operator that he thought Martin was black; I think it's safe to say he knew he was not white.

As long as we continue to shrink discussions of race, and get outraged that we're even discussing racism in 2013, we will always have this problem. Racism will always be seen as a double edged sword to many white people: to them, they feel as if they're being accused of something, as if racism is their fault or their grandfather's fault, as if we cannot discuss racism without putting white people on trial. And to those people I would simply say, imagine that feeling of assumed guilt nagging at you every day, every hour, every minute, for years. Decades. Every time you go into a store late at night, or every time you're driving in a nice car, or every time you accidentally lock yourself out your house and are outside looking for the key. Perhaps then you will know how many black people feel to an extent, and why this case is so personal to us.

I like this post.

 

[sangreal]

Zimmerman: Yeah, now he's coming towards me.

Zimmerman: He's got his hand in his waistband. And he's a black male.

Zimmerman: Something's wrong with him. Yup, he's coming to check me out, he's got something in his hands, I don't know what his deal is.

He wasn't running anyone over. There is literally no evidence to back that up.

You are aware that this is not the end of the call.

Zimmerman

No you go in straight through the entrance and then you make a left, uh, you go straight in, don't turn, and make a left. (expletive) he's running.

Dispatcher

He's running? Which way is he running?

Zimmerman

Down towards the other entrance to the neighborhood.

Dispatcher

Which entrance is that that he's heading towards?

Zimmerman

The back entrance…(expletive)(unclear)

Dispatcher

Are you following him?

Zimmerman

Yeah.

Dispatcher

Ok, we don't need you to do that.

Zimmerman

Ok.

Dispatcher

Alright sir what is your name?

Zimmerman

George…He ran.

...

Dispatcher

Alright George, I'll let them know to meet you around there, okay?

Zimmerman

Actually could you have them, could you have them call me and I'll tell them where I'm at?

Trayvon Martin ran away after your excerpt and GZ decided to chase him down. Note, this does not mean run over

 

[Irobot82]

This is ridiculous. First of all, nobody is ever going to tell you to be on the lookout for "a white guy," Or "a black guy" for that matter. But let's pretend they did. You'd be ridiculous to suspect every white person you see. You'd be looking for suspicious white guys. Trayvon Martin was not doing anything suspicious. He was just a black guy walking down the street. Apparently that means "looks like he's up to no good, or he's on drugs or something"

Zimmerman: Hey, we've had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there's a real suspicious guy-- it's Retreat View Circle. The best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle. This guy looks like he's up to no good, or he's on drugs or something. It's raining and he's just walking around, looking about.

Zimmerman: Yeah. A dark hoodie, like a grey hoodie, and either jeans or sweatpants and white tennis shoes. He's [unintelligible] he was just staring...

Dispatcher: Okay, he's just walking around the area...

Zimmerman: ...looking at all the houses.

Yeah man, get your facts straight.

 

[Epsilon-delta]

Chased down? What was Zimmerman literally about to run him over? Why didn't Martin say, hey man what's up? Or what about the 4 minutes in between where he could have went home? Instead he decides to jump him?4

Victim blaming 101. Anyways how do you know Trayvon jumped first?

 

[Irobot82]

You are aware that this is not the end of the call.

Yes I am aware, I was relating all the parts where Zimmerman said Martin was coming at him and looked dangerous. I watched almost the entire trial, listened to his call and the other calls several times.

 

[casabolg]

Reasonable suspicion is subjective and shouldn't be used by a civilian of unsubstantiated integrity/trustworthiness when armed with a deadly weapon. Is that arguable?

How can it be? Reasonable suspicion is a broad claim which encompasses a lot of things. Doing that will harm more people than help. Hell, many people carry weapons to protect themselves (pepper spray, etc) from the reasonable suspicion they may be attacked at some point.

And yes, I'm completely with you that "reasonable suspicion" is subjective. I felt I implied that. I guess I didn't.

Acting on that bias in a way that leads to someone dying (something that any logic can prove) when not acting on that bias would've prevented that should not be legal. That should be grounds for manslaughter. If the law permits that, then the law is flawed. It isn't gospel; it's man-made and capable of being broken.

And if that bias was correct?
Furhter, lets assume you don't like some racist being in a cafeteria talking about all sorts of sick shit about Trayvon, but doing so to himself. If you confront him and he starts a fight with the intent to kick your ass in a way that could seriously damage you do you not have the right to use weapons to defend yourself? And if that defending kills the man, should you be to blame for that self defense and for causing the mess, since you have a deliberate bias against racist people?

Not trying to make racist people look good in any way, just trying to make a unique situation with the same moral principle to it.

But we don't know that that happened so why use that as an example?.

Because it wasn't to say it happened, it's to say what the true issue of the crime is. The confrontation. Zimmerman's testimony was only the vehicle to deliver that message and I already said it was not to be trusted.

We know Zimmerman profiled and followed Martin based on his appearance.

Incorrect, you do not. You have reasonable suspicion based on prior actions and audio that could be taken either way. Either it was based on race or based on behavior. Zimmerman's first claim was that he was acting like he was on drugs, and drugs were in his system, so it's a gray area.

We know the 911 operator told Zimmerman not to pursue. We know Martin was walking back home and there's no evidence that exists that suggests in any reasonable way Martin was planning on robbing/casing houses on his way back with his snacks. That's not a grey area.

Agree with you on all of that.

Do you believe civilians should be permitted to actively chase after people while armed based on their own, possibly irrational thoughts? The fact that he could have done all of the above based on Martin's race should be reason enough to question the law permitting his actions. The fact that a teenager who was doing nothing wrong was followed, then killed and the person responsible faced no repercussions at all should be enough reason to question the law.

And it has been questioned many times. It was a self-defense case. In the "follow, killed" story you seem to leave out the fight which may have been caused by Trayvon or Zimmerman. That is the core of the issue and why this has turned out the way it has and if you can provide any better solution to fixing this you let us know. Some people are trying to jump into the bandwagon that any lethal act in self defense can be taken as an illegal crime. I can't say I agree there but you make your case and support people who may change laws and the like.

And to your question about following people with armed? "Chase" is a bit sensationalist. If you don't like someone in your neighborhood and you want to tell them you want them out or see if they may do something illegal off their own private property then you are free too. You get 10 years for simply pulling out a gun in public unless you have a law to back you up so I don't feel conceal to carry is truly the issue here.

 

[twobear]

i don't get it is obama saying that he was a DANGEROUS CRIMINAL 35 years ago???

 

[soundscream]

Depends on the circumstances. If there is a serial killer and they catch him, it's probably safe to assume there isn't another one. If there are SEVERAL break-ins it's probably not safe to assume everything is fine. And it isn't racially profiling. It's looking at the crimes and then seeing people act suspiciously who fit the description of the previous crimes.

If the criteria for suspicion is that a unknown black male is walking down the street (not committing a crime) it sure as hell is racial profiling.

 

[Spring-Loaded]

Zimmerman: Yeah, now he's coming towards me.

Zimmerman: He's got his hand in his waistband. And he's a black male.

Zimmerman: Something's wrong with him. Yup, he's coming to check me out, he's got something in his hands, I don't know what his deal is.

He wasn't running anyone over. There is literally no evidence to back that up.

All of that after he was obviously following Martin which couldn've elicited defensive behavior; Martin could've been trying to lose Zimmerman because he was scared and didn't want to lead a stranger back to his house where his little brother was.

"Confirmation bias" is where someone has a preconceived notion of a situation/person and then, consciously or subconsciously, looks for only evidence to support that notion. We don't know whether Matin had his hand in his waistband (not proof of wrongdoing), was actually walking toward Zimmerman.

That "chased donw" comment I made was me asking if that's what it takes to justify someone being afraid or feeling threatened by someone coming after them.

The answer is "no," by the way. Zimmerman followed him; since his truck didn't have a a cloaking device built in, Martin probably noticed him and was freaked out. The following doesn't have to be extremely obvious to be creepy, disconcerting behavior.

You first brought up "running him down." I first mentioned "chased down" as a general example.

How can it be? Reasonable suspicion is a broad claim which encompasses a lot of things. Doing that will harm more people than help. Hell, many people carry weapons to protect themselves (pepper spray, etc) from the reasonable suspicion they may be attacked at some point.

And yes, I'm completely with you that "reasonable suspicion" is subjective. I felt I implied that. I guess I didn't.

you keep bringing up subjectivity as a way to refute people saying Zimmerman ACTING on his suspicions was wrong. Anything subjective should not be basis for performing actions that affect others.

And if that bias was correct?
Furhter, lets assume you don't like some racist being in a cafeteria talking about all sorts of sick shit about Trayvon, but doing so to himself. If you confront him and he starts a fight with the intent to kick your ass in a way that could seriously damage you do you not have the right to use weapons to defend yourself? And if that defending kills the man, should you be to blame for that self defense and for causing the mess, since you have a deliberate bias against racist people?

Not trying to make racist people look good in any way, just trying to make a unique situation with the same moral principle to it.

If I confront him, then I'm partially at fault. If he attacks me, then he's wrong too, yet I started it. Me doing anything other than ignoring him or calling the authorities if he's causing a ruckus is wrong.

This appeal to me not liking racists doesn't change what's acceptable.

Because it wasn't to say it happened, it's to say what the true issue of the crime is. The confrontation. Zimmerman's testimony was only the vehicle to deliver that message and I already said it was not to be trusted.

That's the focus of the trial. That does not mean that we should ignore everything that happened leading up to that, or the fact that if Zimmerman had not pretended to be a cop, Martin wouldn't have been killed. I've already asserted that the outcome of the trial is not what I'm most concerned with. I said that posts ago.

Incorrect, you do not. You have reasonable suspicion based on prior actions and audio that could be taken either way. Either it was based on race or based on behavior. Zimmerman's first claim was that he was acting like he was on drugs, and drugs were in his system, so it's a gray area.

Appearance: how someone looks, including mannerisms. That's all Zimmerman based his following Martin on. He didn't see Martin do anything other than walk down the street; we don't know whether Martin "appeared on drugs" and the drugs found in his system wouldn't be enough to affect his walking. None of that is justification to disobey orders from a 911 operator and pursue someone with a gun.

And it has been questioned many times. It was a self-defense case. In the "follow, killed" story you seem to leave out the fight which may have been caused by Trayvon or Zimmerman. That is the core of the issue and why this has turned out the way it has and if you can provide any better solution to fixing this you let us know. Some people are trying to jump into the bandwagon that any lethal act in self defense can be taken as an illegal crime. I can't say I agree there but you make your case and support people who may change laws and the like.

If I leave out the fight it's because we don't know how it played out. The phone call between Martin and his girlfriend supports that Martin didn't "ambush: Zimmerman since she heard the start of their conversation.

Not that it matters much at this point, but I believe Martin was scared after noticing this stranger following him for so long and at some point decided to attack; he didn't know what Zimmerman was planning to do, but he did know that Zimmerman had followed him without announcing who he was.

The fight is the core of the trial, not the issue. What set all this into motion was Zimmerman spotting and following Martin based on his appearance. Right not, you can justify both parties for doing what we can guess they did during the fight. What you can't justify is Zimmerman trying to be a cop.

And to your question about following people with armed? "Chase" is a bit sensationalist. If you don't like someone in your neighborhood and you want to tell them you want them out or see if they may do something illegal off their own private property then you are free too. You get 10 years for simply pulling out a gun in public unless you have a law to back you up so I don't feel conceal to carry is truly the issue here.

Differentiating between "chase, follow" Etc. is dealing in semantics. We know he went after Trayvon because he got out of his car; that should not be acceptable.

Does that make it good? The notion that he could run around as a faux-badass with a gun was instilled in Zimmerman's mind. The law can let a delusional person carry a gun, and that's acceptable?

Everything related to this situation matters; you cannot ignore concealed carry laws because it is a plays a prat of this situation. you cannot ignore the Stand Your Ground law because knowing that law exists can affect people's actions and decisions in a trial if one were to come about. You cannot ignore ignore of downplay Zimmerman following Martin when it is the catalyst for the entire situation.

 

[sangreal]

Yeah man, get your facts straight.

I'm not sure what your point is. TM was looking at houses while walking home in an unfamiliar neighborhood