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[jorma]

FOXNEWS EXCLUSIVE


That's the first time they put something about OWS on the frontpage and holy shit.

Fox being fox. Although i don't know exactly what ACORN is or why they are so evil to fox, putting people on a salary to attend the protests does not really seem to be in the spirit of what OWS is supposed to be.

 

[Marleyman]

I'm torn. On one hand, the protesters, as long as they are being reasonable, have a right to peaceful assembly. On the other hand, I fear this is going to quickly become a "FUCK THE POLICE! FUCK THE LAWS!" kind of protest from some people, which always provides a nice back door for anarchists and people who want to cause trouble to sneak in and do just that.

We should be upset, we should be trying to affect change and we should not stand for excessive force on either side. Neither side wins if they don't at least respect the other and I'm already clearly starting to see cases of respect disintegrating. Being an "outlaw"/ breaking the rules, rather than trying to fix them, has long been a part of American culture.

It is difficult because we the people aren't very united, which lets the shit that has gotten us into this mess continue. If the majority of people rallied together there would be NO way we could be stopped from getting exactly what we want.

 

[Deku]

not a clue. they definitely could use some small but tangible achievements. something low on the list that they can actually change and keep morale high. the longer this goes fruitless the easier it will be for people to leave the movement.

however getting something accomplished is going to be incredibly difficult. not because of the people involved in OWS or their tactics but because of their opponents and their endless amounts of money and political influence.

i just hope they realize just how long and how hard this will be.

Would be much easier to affect change if they align themselves with the democrats.

 

[Alpha-Bromega]

this is exactly how 99% of the country talks and feels. there is nothing extreme or weird about this post at all. you sir are definitely representative of 99% of america. people genuinely feel that america is a corporatocracy. if you talked like this on tv and the radio the heartland will definitely rise up to support the cause, it is the media holding you down. I now understand.

Im going to bow out of this thread now now because I really cant argue with this post, because you a sir are winning.

you again didn't reply in any way shape or form, you just spit platitudes. it shows your own ineptness and lack of intelligence or at least understanding because rather than exchange dialogue in discourse you'd rather play the only game you know; spew worthless vitriol without any substance.

 

[jorma]

Would be much easier to affect change if they align themselves with the democrats.

i disagree, they'd be paid lip service and then fucked over since the democrats would be counting on them being the lesser of two evils.

 

[Deku]

i disagree, they'd be paid lip service and then fucked over since the democrats would be counting on them being the lesser of two evils.

They are going to be paid lip service to and ignored anyways, as Democrats who might have won with their support go down in defeat, including Obama.

Being a Tea Party of the left isn't a bad thing. Might keep the blue dogs inline.

 

[Marleyman]

not a clue. they definitely could use some small but tangible achievements. something low on the list that they can actually change and keep morale high. the longer this goes fruitless the easier it will be for people to leave the movement.

I don't believe it is currently fruitless. It has to start on some level and you know what Ghandi said!

however getting something accomplished is going to be incredibly difficult. not because of the people involved in OWS or their tactics but because of their opponents and their endless amounts of money and political influence.

i just hope they realize just how long and how hard this will be.

Would you think that violence is not an option?

 

[Wazzim]

Obama should take his responsibility as president and investigate the shit FoxNews shits out and report in a telivised speech if they lied or not. This is plain out bullshit.
I can't even believe that the US senate/congress keeps this shit going, come on.
Every other civilized country would have a government response to such crap, the public can NOT be lied to in such a manner when you try to run a freaking democracy.

"It’s going to Occupy Wall Street, and we’re not using that money to get schools tested for deadly chemicals or to make their kids safer. It’s just going to the protests, and that’s just so terrible.”

FFS

 

[Naked Snake]

Is this real??

Words cannot express how I feel about this if it's real.

 

[Alpha-Bromega]

Obama should take his responsibility as president and investigate the shit FoxNews shits out and report in a telivised speech if they lied or not. This is plain out bullshit.
I can't even believe that the US senate/congress keeps this shit going, come on.
Every other civilized country would have a government response to such crap, the public can NOT be lied to in such a manner when you try to run a freaking democracy.

yea :/

 

[jorma]

They are going to be paid lip service to and ignored anyways, as Democrats who might have won with their support go down in defeat, including Obama.

And that might help the democrats realise that they need to do better if they want to win the next time.

 

[Baraka in the White House]

You live in a western democracy that has a mechanism to change laws and laws have been changed continiously . If enough people really supported your views, you would win an election and be able to change the law/policies. The fact is that you do not have actual support and need to call yourselves the 99% to hide that. Don't point me to any polls, there is only one poll that matters and you lost it in November.

In the words of obama, "I won, deal with it".

Oh this is cute, so NOW electoral mandates matter.

Except of course for the one in 2008 that was practically filibustered away. But this is a topic for another thread.

 

[Marleyman]

Is this real??

Words cannot express how I feel about this if it's real.

I am sure someone out there will say she deserved it.

 

[Deku]

Obama should take his responsibility as president and investigate the shit FoxNews shits out and report in a telivised speech if they lied or not. This is plain out bullshit.
I can't even believe that the US senate/congress keeps this shit going, come on.
Every other civilized country would have a government response to such crap, the public can NOT be lied to in such a manner when you try to run a freaking democracy.


FFS

He took on Fox news and lost - if you recall there was a time when the WH boycotted Fox journalists and the president was combative against what he considered biased questioning. Unfortunately, unlike the other developed economies where free speech is riddled with caveats, the American version is absolutist.

A president taking on even a political media outlet would be highly dangerous matter.

I suggest you stop applying Euro standards here.

 

[Joe]

I don't believe it is currently fruitless. It has to start on some level and you know what Ghandi said!



Would you think that violence is not an option?

I do think at some point in all of this that violence is an option just hopefully not against people.

 

[jorma]

Is this real??

Words cannot express how I feel about this if it's real.

the fuck? i mean.. what the fuck?

 

[Wazzim]

yea :/

I don't know if you are sarcastic or not but I have seen many cases here (yeah I know a small country but still) that a reported scandal on tv get discussed in the Dutch congress in a special debate and investigated. FoxNews was funny at first but they are crossing the line with this.

He took on Fox news and lost - if you recall there was a time when the WH boycotted Fox journalists and the president was combative against what he considered biased questioning. Unfortunately, unlike the other developed economies where free speech is riddled with caveats, the American version is absolutist.

A president taking on even a political media outlet would be highly dangerous matter.

I suggest you stop applying Euro standards here.

They can have free speech of course but the president should be allowed to denounce it as false (if it is) right?

 

[CHEEZMO™]

Is this real??

Words cannot express how I feel about this if it's real.

Although this is horrible, the image is old as shit.

 

[rdrr gnr]

this is exactly how 99% of the country talks and feels. there is nothing extreme or weird about this post at all. you sir are definitely representative of 99% of america. people genuinely feel that america is a corporatocracy. if you talked like this on tv and the radio the heartland will definitely rise up to support the cause, it is the media holding you down. I now understand.

Im going to bow out of this thread now now because I really cant argue with this post, because you a sir are winning.

Do you not understand the logical extension of Alpha's post? The gauge by which we measure what "99% of the country talks and feels" is skewed. Public consciousness has been infected, altered, obfuscated. Why would you ever hear the notion of a coporatocracy on a news network run by a corporation? What sense would transparency make for a bank that gambles with your money? This movement is in essence, representative of millions and millions of Americans -- whether they realize it or not.

 

[ezrarh]

I think the most realistic option would be to get the Democrats back in power in Congress and somehow increase their power in the Senate. Then in the next election after this one, primary the Democrats that are corporate shills/blue dogs kinda like what the Tea Party did. This would require increasing voter participation for years and not just a one time thing.

 

[Deku]

And that might help the democrats realise that they need to do better if they want to win the next time.

not really. Everytime they have lost, they have gone closer to the center-right.

Recall Clinton's triangulation strategy in the 90s. His presidency succeeded despite a public mood that was very much triumphalist after the cold war and was still in love with Raegan.

The reason Bush Sr. faced a rebellion on his right was a belief by many conservatives that he was too liberal.

 

[empty vessel]

I would quibble with that a little bit. Rosa Parks was a kind of spontaneous act of defiance and it's hard to fake it.

Wait, wait, wait. Rosa Parks was the secretary of the Montgomery chapter of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People. The bus boycott had been planned already at the time she refused to leave her seat.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2008/oct/04/9

OWS is every bit a "kind of spontaneous act of defiance," if that's how you're going to describe the civil rights movement, which isn't particularly accurate.

 

[Alpha-Bromega]

He took on Fox news and lost - if you recall there was a time when the WH boycotted Fox journalists and the president was combative against what he considered biased questioning. Unfortunately, unlike the other developed economies where free speech is riddled with caveats, the American version is absolutist.

A president taking on even a political media outlet would be highly dangerous matter.

I suggest you stop applying Euro standards here.

but why? why shouldn't we hold ourselves to what is considered a pretty damn good standard of how a society should function? we shouldn't just yeald acquiescence to that type of conditions, no way/

 

[Deku]

Wait, wait, wait. Rosa Parks was the secretary of the Montgomery chapter of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People. The bus boycott had been planned already at the time she refused to leave her seat.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2008/oct/04/9

OWS is every bit a "kind of spontaneous act of defiance," if that's how you're going to describe the civil rights movement, which isn't particularly accurate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosa_Parks#Her_refusal_to_move

After a day at work at Montgomery Fair department store, Parks boarded the Cleveland Avenue bus at around 6 p.m., Thursday, December 1, 1955, in downtown Montgomery. She paid her fare and sat in an empty seat in the first row of back seats reserved for blacks in the "colored" section, which was near the middle of the bus and directly behind the ten seats reserved for white passengers. Initially, she had not noticed that the bus driver was the same man, James F. Blake, who had left her in the rain in 1943. As the bus traveled along its regular route, all of the white-only seats in the bus filled up. The bus reached the third stop in front of the Empire Theater, and several white passengers boarded.

Parks was charged with a violation of Chapter 6, Section 11 segregation law of the Montgomery City code,[19] even though she technically had not taken up a white-only seat—she had been in a colored section.[20] E.D. Nixon and Clifford Durr bailed Parks out of jail the evening of December 2.[21]

That evening, Nixon conferred with Alabama State College professor Jo Ann Robinson about Parks' case. Robinson, a member of the Women's Political Council (WPC), stayed up all night mimeographing over 35,000 handbills announcing a bus boycott. The Women's Political Council was the first group to officially endorse the boycott.

On Sunday, December 4, 1955, plans for the Montgomery Bus Boycott were announced at black churches in the area, and a front-page article in The Montgomery Advertiser helped spread the word

 

[kame-sennin]

I couldn't find this anywhere on here; apologies if posted.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/26/iraq-vet-oakland-police-tear-gas_n_1033159.html

Jesus.

You live in a western democracy that has a mechanism to change laws and laws have been changed continiously . If enough people really supported your views, you would win an election and be able to change the law/policies. The fact is that you do not have actual support and need to call yourselves the 99% to hide that. Don't point me to any polls, there is only one poll that matters and you lost it in November.

In the words of obama, "I won, deal with it".

Ok, I'll bite. It's 2008 and I want companies like Goldman Sachs to face tougher regulations and be prosecuted for the fraud they committed. John McCain and Barack Obama are running for president. During the campaign, John McCain receives huge sums of money from Goldman Sachs, Barack Obama receives even more. Who do I vote for?

 

[Deku]

but why? why shouldn't we hold ourselves to what is considered a pretty damn good standard of how a society should function? we shouldn't just yeald acquiescence to that type of conditions, no way/

I believe an absolutist form of free speech is better than one with caveats.

This is an opinion of course, but in this case, Wazzim was essentially not understanding why something is the case in a country that is not in Europe.

It's kind of fair to give the context.? I did note the WH did wage their war already and came out looking vindicate. Also in a country that values freedom of speech, a president attacking the press is just bad PR.

 

[richiek]

I think the most realistic option would be to get the Democrats back in power in Congress and somehow increase their power in the Senate. Then in the next election after this one, primary the Democrats that are corporate shills/blue dogs kinda like what the Tea Party did. This would require increasing voter participation for years and not just a one time thing.

I agree. the results of this years elections will be a good indicator of the progress of the OWS movement. Yes, many Dems are corporatists, but if they do well on Election Day, at least it's a start.

 

[demon]

FOXNEWS EXCLUSIVE


That's the first time they put something about OWS on the frontpage and holy shit.

That's okay. I'm sure they had a front-page headline about the Tea Party being co-opted by the Koch Bros and other special interests.

If it weren't for the destructive influence Fox News has on this country I wouldn't care less about what they have to say. They're half propoganda outlet, half political tabloid, nothing more. And certainly not a legitimate news organization.

 

[Alpha-Bromega]

I believe an absolutist form of free speech is better than one with caveats.

This is an opinion of course, but in this case, Wazzim was essentially not understanding why something is the case in a country that is not in Europe.

It's kind of fair to give the context?

then how do you avoid the corporate control of information dissemination, and the huge threats to democracy and such that come with that control? when a corporation can own an outlet that exists solely to perpetuate its mother companies ideals, and is not bound in any way to report the truth or even try, it's a medium of propaganda and a threat to the well being of that democracy.

it's the greatest thing to happen to the ruling class

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Jesus.



Ok, I'll bite. It's 2008 and I want companies like Goldman Sachs to face tougher regulations and be prosecuted for the fraud they committed. John McCain and Barack Obama are running for president. During the campaign, John McCain receives huge sums of money from Goldman Sachs, Barack Obama receives even more. Who do I vote for?

Didn't someone from Goldman just get indicted for fraud in the last couple of days?

 

[Alpha-Bromega]

Didn't someone from Goldman just get indicted for fraud in the last couple of days?

the institutions themselves need to be regulated, taking fall guys for symbolic value does nothing except convince idiots that the economy isn't rigged.

 

[kame-sennin]

I think the most realistic option would be to get the Democrats back in power in Congress and somehow increase their power in the Senate. Then in the next election after this one, primary the Democrats that are corporate shills/blue dogs kinda like what the Tea Party did. This would require increasing voter participation for years and not just a one time thing.

You would be left with Dennis Kucinich and Alan Grayson standing in an empty room.

The democrat party is dirty with corporate money from top to bottom and completely on the side of Wall Street:

http://politics.salon.com/2011/10/11/can_ows_be_turned_into_a_democratic_party_movement/singleton/

 

[Dude Abides]

Didn't someone from Goldman just get indicted for fraud in the last couple of days?

Insider trading related to the Rajaratnam case. Nothing to do with the financial crisis.

Last years GS settled with the SEC for $550M for CDO marketing.

http://www.sec.gov/news/press/2010/2010-123.htm

 

[ezrarh]

He got charged for insider trading because he leaked Goldman secrets to Rajaratnam. Nothing to do with Goldman's fraud.

 

[ezrarh]

You would be left with Dennis Kucinich and Alan Grayson standing in an empty room.

The democrat party is dirty with corporate money from top to bottom and completely on the side of Wall Street:

http://politics.salon.com/2011/10/11/can_ows_be_turned_into_a_democratic_party_movement/singleton/

Yea, I have no doubt that the democrats are dirty with corporate money. It's either that or a third party. Maybe it really is that hard to find a politician that's not a total shill for Wall st.

 

[kame-sennin]

but why? why shouldn't we hold ourselves to what is considered a pretty damn good standard of how a society should function? we shouldn't just yeald acquiescence to that type of conditions, no way/

I agree with Deku on this one. We need free speech in America. Sometimes that means tolerating hate speech from fringe groups, and sometimes it means tolerating bullshit propaganda like Fox. Neither is healthy for the country, but loosing free speech would be a greater blow. If we granted Obama the power to drag Fox in front of Congress, we grant president Bachman or Perry the same power in the future.

Yea, I have no doubt that the democrats are dirty with corporate money. It's either that or a third party. Maybe it really is that hard to find a politician that's not a total shill for Wall st.

That's why OWS is so important. If the movement continues to grow, it won't matter whether there is a republican or democrat in office. I made this analogy before; we're battling neo-feudalism here. The goal is not to elect a new king, the goal is to force the current king to sign the Magna Carta.

 

[jorma]

not really. Everytime they have lost, they have gone closer to the center-right.

Recall Clinton's triangulation strategy in the 90s. His presidency succeeded despite a public mood that was very much triumphalist after the cold war and pro-Raegan.

No, but i do recall Ross Perot fucking things up for the republican candidate. =) (or was that the first term election?)

But i feel like a big part of the american public is shifting visibly to the left, i rarely heard an american talk about euro "socialism" with a positive spin a decade ago, and now i hear it all the time.

It's hard to "triangulate" a middle ground when all parts of the triangle is to the right of what the voters would actually want.

If OWS can force the democrats to shift to the left that would be a good thing for them. Aligning themselves with the democrats at this stage would not achieve this i think.

 

[rdrr gnr]

then how do you avoid the corporate control of information dissemination, and the huge threats to democracy and such that come with that control? when a corporation can own an outlet that exists solely to perpetuate its mother companies ideals, and is not bound in any way to report the truth or even try, it's a medium of propaganda and a threat to the well being of that democracy.

it's the greatest thing to happen to the ruling class

Those caveats create room for even more corporate control in some senses. If you need a legal precedent to constitute what can be considered free speech, how do you think that process will go?

The only way for a system like that to work is if each member of the citizenry is a rational actor who seeks sound information, is aware of all aspects of the source and is savvy to external motivations and influences.

That will never happen in America.

 

[chaostrophy]

I couldn't find this anywhere on here; apologies if posted.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/26/iraq-vet-oakland-police-tear-gas_n_1033159.html

I wonder if the right-wingers are going to start calling a twice-deployed Iraq vet a lazy hippie.

 

[Azih]

how about this, champion Democrats that actually are pro regulation and protest the ones that aren't.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Insider trading related to the Rajaratnam case. Nothing to do with the financial crisis.

Last years GS settled with the SEC for $550M for CDO marketing.

http://www.sec.gov/news/press/2010/2010-123.htm

Right,but he only said for fraud they commited. I thought he meant in general.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

I wonder if the right-wingers are going to start calling a twice-deployed Iraq vet a lazy hippie.

Actually that was a person from the left who posted the image macro saying those inare the military were welfare sponges or something of the sort.

 

[kame-sennin]

Right,but he only said for fraud they commited. I thought he meant in general.

Every time fraud has been discussed in this thread, it has been in the context of selling mortgages to investors and then betting against those same mortgages.

 

[demon]

That's why OWS is so important. If the movement continues to grow, it won't matter whether there is a republican or democrat in office. I made this analogy before; we're battling neo-feudalism here. The goal is not to elect a new king, the goal is to force the current king to sign the Mangna Carta.

The Manga Carta. A gaffer's wet dream?

 

[kame-sennin]

how about this, champion Democrats that actually are pro regulation and protest the ones that aren't.

That'd be tough:

You would be left with Dennis Kucinich and Alan Grayson standing in an empty room.

The democrat party is dirty with corporate money from top to bottom and completely on the side of Wall Street:

http://politics.salon.com/2011/10/11/can_ows_be_turned_into_a_democratic_party_movement/singleton/

 

[Escape Goat]

I tried to google Manga Carta and I got a bunch of anime girls with humongous boobs.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Every time fraud has been discussed in this thread, it has been in the context of selling mortgages to investors and then betting against those same mortgages.

So you only want certain fraud prosecuted? I thought OWS was fraud in general, otherwise it seems like they are only protesting one event and the issue is somehow limited to only one set of factors.

 

[kame-sennin]

So you only want certain fraud prosecuted? I thought OWS was fraud in general, otherwise it seems like they are only protesting one event and the issue is somehow limited to only one set of factors.

Sigh. Only you could come up with that interpretation of my post.

 

[Alpha-Bromega]

how about this, champion Democrats that actually are pro regulation and protest the ones that aren't.

i'm fine with this, but smart regulation. but that's in the letters of it

 

[Naked Snake]

Although this is horrible, the image is old as shit.

Thanks. So it's not related to the Occupy movement? I thought it looked "odd", being so compressed and all.