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[Alpha-Bromega]

You mean by the police or the protesters who ignored an order to disperse?

an order to disperse does not justify use of force unless prompted.

and that's assuming the order to disperse is justified morally, not legally.

 

[kame-sennin]

City Hall declares Occupy Baltimore's camping illegal

I hope the protesters sit down and lock arms if an attempt is made to force them out. Obviously, that's not an effective tactic against tear gas, but I'm hopeful that most police departments won't participate in the kind of brutality that Oakland did.

I'd look to history and see what works, in this case elements of the Civil Rights movement. I'd also work hard to keep the fringe elements out, but still diverse (age, race, income), well manned, and clean. I'd keep a focused message with actual specific demands/solutions, and stick to that. I would also use protest marches, not squatting or "occupation", but ones that attract attention and are not disruptive. People like a group more that says we've protesting here to help ensure people are not negatively impacted on their commute.

Thanks for your response. I prefer the tactics of OWS for this situation though. The fact that the movement is leaderless makes it more difficult to co-opt, the list of grievances rather than demands means that pressure can be applied to government without the need to make concessions, and I like the idea of occupation - the longer it lasts, the stronger the movement appears.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

an order to disperse does not justify use of force unless prompted.

If the group ignores the order and indicates it will stay there.

and that's assuming the order to disperse is justified morally, not legally.

If it's legal, it's legal. Morality varies from person to person, do you want officers enforcing the laws, or their own morals?

I hope the protesters sit down and lock arms if an attempt is made to force them out. Obviously, that's not an effective tactic against tear gas, but I'm hopeful that most police departments won't participate in the kind of brutality that Oakland did.

Yes, they will and tear gas being deployed against people removing to leave an area when ordered to disperse is kind of what tear gas is meant to be used for.

 

[Alpha-Bromega]

If the group ignores the order and indicates it will stay there.


If it's legal, it's legal. Morality varies from person to person, do you want officers enforcing the laws, or their own morals?

Rosa Parks sitting in the front of the bus was literally, by law, illegal.


You can create laws all day that benefit and perpetuate the ruling class.

 

[Angry Fork]

Rosa Parks sitting in the front of the bus was literally, by law, illegal.


You can create laws all day that benefit and perpetuate the ruling class.

"then change the laws if you don't like it" is the usual response to this.

Then when they try to change things it's "hey what the fuck DISPERSE, DEPLOY TEAR GAS these assholes aren't listening to authoritarian demands."

 

[Alpha-Bromega]

Yeah, it's a really, really, really, really bizzaro world when peaceful protests are being forcefully dispersed by the very forces they are protesting... wait that sounds kind of fishy.

congress shall make no law and so forth

 

[CHEEZMO™]

"Don't break the law guise mmkay?"

"Okay, we'll gather and demand a change to the law."

"Can't do that - it's illegal, bros."

 

[Alpha-Bromega]

i think if Manos would dedicate his smarts to helping the movement rather than disparaging it we'd be in a better place.

because i'd love to see how a demonstration plays out in these bizzaro worlds where they have to meet exact standards and also not break any laws!

 

[Deku]

This is pretty much true, what most people think about OWS (minus the smash things/burn cars). Literally no one around me in real life is taking it very seriously, or even caring.

I wouldn't say that. My main concern is their tactics and far-left elements trying to dictate the agenda or lack there of, and there's certainly a similarity to the WTO protests from the previous decade. In some circles there is also attempt to start protests then immediately equate the protests to the Arab spring, implying essentially an advanced western democracy is on the same level as Assad's Syria or Mubarak's Egypt.

But otherwise, I'm ok with a protest against banks, and the rich. Remember the whole 'tax me more' thing started with Buffet and Obama taking it as a spin for his jobs bill.

There's a corridor for it to affect progressive politics especially with an election next year. Things will still be fresh and the protests can have an influence in preventing even more Republicans from being elected.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

i think if Manos would dedicate his smarts to helping the movement rather than disparaging it we'd be in a better place.

because i'd love to see how a demonstration plays out in these bizzaro worlds where they have to meet exact standards and also not break any laws!

Hmm, lets see ah yes you apply for permits and actual do the paperwork.

Rosa Parks sitting in the front of the bus was literally, by law, illegal.


You can create laws all day that benefit and perpetuate the ruling class.

Hmm. Rosa Parks vs Crowd of angry screaming people refusing to disperse...ah yeah no difference what soever.

 

[rdrr gnr]

Let us look to those movements which created fundamental societal and economic change without every doing anything illegal ever and without ever offending anyone ever.

Here's my list:








Edit: Wow, just saw the flashbang clip...

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Let us look to those movements which created fundamental societal and economic change without every doing anything illegal ever and without ever offending anyone ever.

Offending some people is different that offending and alienating the majority of the people.

 

[Angry Fork]

Hmm. Rosa Parks vs Crowd of angry screaming people refusing to disperse...ah yeah no difference what soever.

better example?

edit - I think manos grandfather is the one holding the dog on the right

 

[jorma]

If it's legal, it's legal. Morality varies from person to person, do you want officers enforcing the laws, or their own morals?

If the assembly was not violent or engaging in criminal activity, the assembly was not unlawful and that would in turn render the order to disperse unlawful. No?

 

[Xyrmellon]

better example?

edit - I think manos grandfather is the one holding the dog on the right

That's low class man.

 

[jamesinclair]

I thought these were anti-banking protests not anti-police protests?

Why is this good? Surely it shifts people's attention away from the real goal of policy change.

Because the police are clearly working against the people.

And they incited the escalating violence. When you show up with 500 cops in riot gear, helicopters etc, people get on edge.

The ONLY violent results in the entire country have been when the polcie decided they wanted to crack down. Why? Just because.

Did the protesters in Oakland do anything to deserve having tear gas and/or flash-bangs used against them? Serious question. All I've seen in the videos is police brutality with no context.

They had the nerve to peacefully assemble to petition their government.

THE NERVE OF THEM.


Im sure this is SOP though. Every night, 500 police show up with helicopters and tear gas to disperse the homeless staying past 11pm in the park, right?

 

[CHEEZMO™]

That's low class man.

There's a "second class citizen" joke in here but I aint gonna make it.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

That's low class man.

I guess I should be happy that I didn't Godwin the thread, and wind up with him implying my relatives were someone else.

 

[cooljeanius]

I guess I should be happy that I didn't Godwin the thread, and wind up with him implying my relatives were someone else.

Manos, you said you were going to stay out of this thread, and you already have the second-most posts in it:
Click for large view

 

[richiek]

Offending some people is different that offending and alienating the majority of the people.

I wouldn't call this "offending and alienating the majority of the people."

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Manos, you said you were going to stay out of this thread, and you already have the second-most posts in it:
Click for large view

If trying to "shame" me or trying magicops littlw shtick hasn't worked in the past , what makes you think it will now?

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

I wouldn't call this "offending and alienating the majority of the people."

That is a vague as hell question, you could agree with a few or even one and still answer yes. When you throw a bunch of crap at the wall something eventually sticks.

 

[NullPointer]

If trying to "shame" me or trying magicops littlw shtick hasn't worked in the past , what makes you think it will now?

How about listening to your own advice and being true to your word? Or does your word not count for anything?

 

[jorma]

That is a vague as hell question, you could agree with a few or even one and still answer yes. When you throw a bunch of crap at the wall something eventually sticks.

Would the poll have been considered equally vauge if it actually supported your contention that OWS is alienating a majority of the people?

 

[Alpha-Bromega]

no jorma, that would be too consistent.

it's vague as hell? how? people know what Occupy stands for in the general sense, and if they support it that's that. Your contention was that it was alienating a large amount of people, a vaguery in itself, and these results show otherwise.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

How about listening to your own advice and being true to your word?

I also said earlier on that I felt it was wrong to exclude myself from a topic because I have a differing opinion. So yes I did listen to my own advice.

Would the poll have been considered equally vauge if it actually supported your contention that OWS is alienating a majority of the people?

Yes, I'd say that would be a valid problem too.

 

[Joe]

manos is a total joke/weirdo. if asian movies weren't allowed in the US anymore and wall st. was responsible he'd be occupying the shit out of it.

not really sure why you guys still give him any credibility.

back on topic, i do think OWS needs a "phase 2". it needs to evolve or it will die.

 

[daycru]

I wouldn't call this "offending and alienating the majority of the people."

His point is dumb as shit anyway because it was trying to explain why Rosa Parks breaking the law was good and the OWS people being, you know. You think the majority of people in 1955 Alabama were down with the blacks not knowing their place?

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

manos is a total joke/weirdo. if asian movies weren't allowed in the US anymore and wall st. was responsible he'd be occupying the shit out of it.

What the hell are you talking about? Talk about a weirdo.
lol

 

[Alpha-Bromega]

manos is a total joke/weirdo. if asian movies weren't allowed in the US anymore and wall st. was responsible he'd be occupying the shit out of it.

not really sure why you guys still give him any credibility.

back on topic, i do think OWS needs a "phase 2". it needs to evolve or it will die.

differing opinions are welcome


i agree compltely though, it needs to evolve into Wartortle soon. catalyst it

 

[Deku]

His point is dumb as shit anyway because it was trying to explain why Rosa Parks breaking the law was good and the OWS people being, you know. You think the majority of people in 1955 Alabama were down with the blacks not knowing their place?

I would quibble with that a little bit. Rosa Parks was a kind of spontaneous act of defiance and it's hard to fake it.

Modern protests in the west have workshops where they are coached on how to deliberately break the law and get arrested.

So I understand where the other side is coming from. I think its disingenous to say that the protest(ors) weren't looking for trouble. Everytime the cops use tear gas or someone is allegedly brutalized, their media profile goes way up. It's certainly IMHO a valid strategy, but let's call a horse a horse, and not say its a unicorn.

 

[Marleyman]

I couldn't find this anywhere on here; apologies if posted.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/26/iraq-vet-oakland-police-tear-gas_n_1033159.html

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

i agree compltely though, it needs to evolve into Wartortle soon. catalyst it

Herman Cain?

Unless google is just bringing up the wrong reference.

 

[rdrr gnr]

differing opinions are welcome


i agree compltely though, it needs to evolve into Wartortle soon. catalyst it

Am I missing some connection between Squirtle and OWS?

Catalyst? Rare candies?...

 

[Marleyman]

manos is a total joke/weirdo. if asian movies weren't allowed in the US anymore and wall st. was responsible he'd be occupying the shit out of it.

not really sure why you guys still give him any credibility.

back on topic, i do think OWS needs a "phase 2". it needs to evolve or it will die.

How do you suggest it evolves?

 

[Alpha-Bromega]

Am I missing some connection between Squirtle and OWS?

Catalyst? Rare candies?...

there's no semantic connection at all, just the use of evolve made me think of it.

 

[minus_273]

"then change the laws if you don't like it" is the usual response to this.

Then when they try to change things it's "hey what the fuck DISPERSE, DEPLOY TEAR GAS these assholes aren't listening to authoritarian demands."

You live in a western democracy that has a mechanism to change laws and laws have been changed continiously . If enough people really supported your views, you would win an election and be able to change the law/policies. The fact is that you do not have actual support and need to call yourselves the 99% to hide that. Don't point me to any polls, there is only one poll that matters and you lost it in November.

In the words of obama, "I won, deal with it".

 

[richiek]

I would quibble with that a little bit. Rosa Parks was a kind of spontaneous act of defiance and it's hard to fake it.

Modern protests in the west have workshops where they are coached on how to deliberately break the law and get arrested.

Dude, that is the very definition of civil disobedience. The civil rights movement used the same techniques.

 

[Alpha-Bromega]

You live in a western democracy that has a mechanism to change laws and laws have been changed continiously . If enough people really supported your views, you would win an election and be able to change the law/policies. The fact is that you do not have actual support and need to call yourselves the 99% to hide that. Don't point me to any polls, there is only one poll that matters and you lost it in November.

In the words of obama, "I won, deal with it".

We actually live in a corporatocracy where the disseminators of information and the movers of public opinion are extensions of that class and perpetuate its economic well being through manipulation of information. Embed false consciousness in the working class, make them hate themselves while supporting those that stomp on them.

so don't get huffy and puffy

 

[demon]

You live in a western democracy that has a mechanism to change laws and laws have been changed continiously . If enough people really supported your views, you would win an election and be able to change the law/policies. The fact is that you do not have actual support and need to call yourselves the 99% to hide that. Don't point me to any polls, there is only one poll that matters and you lost it in November.

In the words of obama, "I won, deal with it".

Jesus you're fucking ignorant.

Our democracy is very much broken, and making serious reform within that system is becoming more and more hopeless as time goes on.

 

[rdrr gnr]

there's no semantic connection at all, just the use of evolve made me think of it.

I see. I check this thread sporadically, so I just assumed I was missing some previous exchange that lead you to use that reference.

Now, I have to look through the original 150 Pokemon and decide which one is most appropriate as an analogy. Caterpie?

 

[Deku]

Dude, that is the very definition of civil disobedience. The civil rights movement used the same techniques.

Oh I don't disagree.

 

[FlyinJ]

You live in a western democracy that has a mechanism to change laws and laws have been changed continiously . If enough people really supported your views, you would win an election and be able to change the law/policies. The fact is that you do not have actual support and need to call yourselves the 99% to hide that. Don't point me to any polls, there is only one poll that matters and you lost it in November.

In the words of obama, "I won, deal with it".

Do you understand that this is no longer the case, and because of that very reason people are camping and protesting in the first place?

Or was this sarcasm?

 

[Wazzim]

FOXNEWS EXCLUSIVE


That's the first time they put something about OWS on the frontpage and holy shit.

Dozens of New York homeless people recruited from shelters are also being paid to support the protests, at the rate of $10 an hour, the sources said.

I so want to hit the guy who wrote this in the fucking face.

 

[Azih]

Lord, what kind of democracy is it in which citizens sit down and shut up at all times that a voting booth isn't open?

 

[Joe]

How do you suggest it evolves?

not a clue. they definitely could use some small but tangible achievements. something low on the list that they can actually change and keep morale high. the longer this goes fruitless the easier it will be for people to leave the movement.

however getting something accomplished is going to be incredibly difficult. not because of the people involved in OWS or their tactics but because of their opponents and their endless amounts of money and political influence.

i just hope they realize just how long and how hard this will be.

 

[NihonTiger90]

I'm torn. On one hand, the protesters, as long as they are being reasonable, have a right to peaceful assembly. On the other hand, I fear this is going to quickly become a "FUCK THE POLICE! FUCK THE LAWS!" kind of protest from some people, which always provides a nice back door for anarchists and people who want to cause trouble to sneak in and do just that.

We should be upset, we should be trying to affect change and we should not stand for excessive force on either side. Neither side wins if they don't at least respect the other and I'm already clearly starting to see cases of respect disintegrating. Being an "outlaw"/ breaking the rules, rather than trying to fix them, has long been a part of American culture.

 

[Evlar]

FOXNEWS EXCLUSIVE


That's the first time they put something about OWS on the frontpage and holy shit.

No surprise Fox is pursuing the "discredit" approach.

 

[Joe]

are people actually suggesting that we can simply just vote someone in and that person will change a law simply based on its popularity?

ha, and i thought i was naive.

 

[minus_273]

We actually live in a corporatocracy where the disseminators of information and the movers of public opinion are extensions of that class and perpetuate its economic well being through manipulation of information. Embed false consciousness in the working class, make them hate themselves while supporting those that stomp on them.

so don't get huffy and puffy

this is exactly how 99% of the country talks and feels. there is nothing extreme or weird about this post at all. you sir are definitely representative of 99% of america. people genuinely feel that america is a corporatocracy. if you talked like this on tv and the radio the heartland will definitely rise up to support the cause, it is the media holding you down. I now understand.

Im going to bow out of this thread now now because I really cant argue with this post, because you a sir are winning.