Support NeoGAF

[ReBurn]

I don't disagree that "fact lobbying" is useful. But because lobbying is so corrupting generally, strict limits should be put on fact lobbying by corporations (who have no rights anyway). All corporate interaction with representatives should take place at the request of representatives (not vice versa) and should occur on the record and in public (i.e., in hearings). All direct contact between corporations and government representatives should be barred on pain of revocation of charter (for corporations) and impeachment (for representatives).

Aside from restrictions on transfers of money (which I don't consider speech), I don't think any restrictions can lawfully be or should be placed on individual citizens' direct contact with representatives.

I agree with you completely. Lobbying as a corporate activity needs to be regulated as tightly as the environment that corporations operate in.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

The rights of corporations > the rights of citizens

No, one is not more than the other.

It's more like homosexual marriages= heterosexual marriages.

 

[dave is ok]

But my points stands. The people who have the power to change things are in Congress. You're not going to get Wall Street execs to change their ways or step down by sitting in a park for a year. You can however actually get these corrupt people out of congress. THAT is actually possible.

If you had thousands show up in the national mall in Washington DC, and they shamed those who allow these practices to go unchanged, then I think you'd have something, and you'd be less likely to be evicted so fast too.

It just makes more sense to go after those who can actually change things. Of course it's not as leftist and hip sounding as going after those "fat cats", but the truth is congress is your real enemy.

By protesting moneys influence on government in general, it makes it an issue that campaigning politicians can't ignore. If you think voting out a congressman means that his replacement won't be indebted to the exact same corporations and lobbies, you're being obtuse.

 

[venne]

No it's you trying to do the run around of the law established by the US Supreme Court because you don't agree with it. It's the law and you need to come to terms with it.

You mean the doctrine that the Supreme Court later overturned? Unfortunately it was the law of the land from Plessy till it was overturned, it's price we have to pay at times for accepting the rule of law and the fact that bad decision can be made.

So what are you suggesting, accept it or work to overturn it?

 

[Azih]

So the method ows uses is to inconvenience people enough so they just go "christ, give them what they want"?

No it is to raise the issues in a visible manner. Being visible requires either having sympathy in the mass media or causing an inconvenience forcing the media to report on it.

 

[BruiserBear]

No need to get condescending. Ask yourself how money it costs to run for Congress or for Senate? Where does that money come from?

You yourself said:

"but they don't, because lobbyists and outside interests keep them from doing the right thing"

So why not go after the source of the lobbyists and the outside interests that have the most sway over the countries government (i.e the 1%)? That puts pressure on Washington as well.

That's what Occupy is doing and that's what makes it as effective as it has been. Far more effective than the Tea Party who identified Washington as the *only* problem not Washington *and* Wall Street.

Effective? lolz


They've accomplished nothing, other than getting some high profile people to pander to them in some interviews.

They could accomplish something by showing up in the National Mall and demanding that corporate money be taken out of politics. By demanding that the American People wake up and demand that corporate money be taken out of politics. That could actually change things.

Occupying Wall Street will change nothing.

By protesting moneys influence on government in general, it makes it an issue that campaigning politicians can't ignore. If you think voting out a congressman means that his replacement won't be indebted to the exact same corporations and lobbies, you're being obtuse.

If they change the subject to getting corporate money out of politics, that could mean electing people who aren't so beholden to big business.

 

[Angry Fork]

So the method ows uses is to inconvenience people enough so they just go "christ, give them what they want"?

Isn't this what all protests eventually come down to? There's no way the people in power want to change things, but things eventually get big enough that they have to because everyone else connected to them is annoyed and won't stand for it anymore.

Very subjective statement followed by a hypothetical question.

How is it hypothetical if it happened already?

Luckily the voices of Manos and Choke Magic's of the 60s didn't outweigh common sense.

 

[Choke on the Magic]

Er, so is the US government itself.

Except one has always paid their employees with US tax dollars until now. Wall Street corporations got propped up with tax dollars and it is bogus. Which is why I'm voting against anybody who supported it in the next elections.

 

[venne]

No, one is not more than the other.

It's more like robot marriages = homo sapien marriages.

FTFY

 

[Choke on the Magic]

Isn't this what all protests eventually come down to? There's no way the people in power want to change things, but things eventually get big enough that they have to because everyone else connected to them is annoyed and won't stand for it anymore.


How is it hypothetical if it happened already?

Luckily the voices of Manos and Choke Magic's of the 60s didn't outweigh common sense.

You weren't refering to it happening again? My mistake.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

FTFY

You don't think homosexual marriages are equal to heterosexual marriages?

Luckily the voices of Manos and Choke Magic's of the 60s didn't outweigh common sense.

What the hell are you talking about?

 

[Angry Fork]

You weren't refering to it happening again? My mistake.

That wasn't his point at all...

What the hell are you talking about?

That whoever were the equivalent of people like you in the 60s who opposed common sense and doing the right thing luckily didn't succeed.

 

[Mercury Fred]

No, one is not more than the other.

It's more like homosexual marriages= heterosexual marriages.

I like the comparison of corporations to an oppressed minority. Grim, even for you.

 

[venne]

You don't think homosexual marriages are equal to heterosexual marriages?

You love to put words in mouths of others.

 

[Azih]

Effective? lolz

Yup, the conversation has changed dramatically since OWS came about. People are actually talking about what benefits the richest of the rich as opposed to what benefits the majority of people and that was almost impossible before as pundits started screeching about "class warfare" ad nauseam and painted anyone who dared to disagree as 'socialists' or some such nonsense. They still do but there's room for debate now that wasn't there before.

By demanding that the American People wake up and demand that corporate money be taken out of politics.

That's what they are demanding mang. It's one of the common themes of the whole thing. And the beauty is that by pressuring the source and symbol of the corporate money they are pressuring the politicians as well. Unlike what you advocate which is to go after only one of the two.

 

[richiek]

Maybe you should work on some breathing technique to control stress and anger issues.

Manos is now on full smug-ass troll mode.

 

[dave is ok]

If they change the subject to getting corporate money out of politics, that could mean electing people who aren't so beholden to big business.

You haven't seen OWS signs asking for corporate money out of politics? It's been a pretty big issue for them.

You haven't been paying attention to the protests at all apparently, but just want them to leave the poor banks alone and protest the government. Got it

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

That whoever were the equivalent of people like you in the 60s who opposed common sense and doing the right thing luckily didn't succeed.

OWS and Common Sense aren't really synonymous with each other..

I do like the attempt to call me a racist though who wouldn't have have supported the Civil Rights movement.

I like the comparison of corporations to an oppressed minority. Grim, even for you.

Well considering people want to oppress the rights of free speech, you're acting no better than the people who passed Prop 8 and wanted to restrict marriage rights, both basic fundamental rights.

 

[Mercury Fred]

Well considering people want to oppress the rights of free speech, you're acting no better than the people who passed Prop 8 and wanted to restrict marriage rights, both basic fundamental rights.

Wow. You should be ashamed of yourself.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Wow. You should be ashamed of yourself.

No you should be. I stand firm for the rights of free speech and marriage rights, I don't make exceptions.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Statement from the Mayor
http://www.mikebloomberg.com/index.cfm?objectid=A75AD449-C29C-7CA2-F3BF220495E97E4B

The following is Mayor Bloomberg's statement on the cleaning and re-opening of Zuccotti Park.
“At one o’clock this morning, the New York City Police Department and the owners of Zuccotti Park notified protestors in the park that they had to immediately remove tents, sleeping bags and other belongings, and must follow the park rules if they wished to continue to use it to protest. Many protestors peacefully complied and left. At Brookfield’s request, members of the NYPD and Sanitation Department assisted in removing any remaining tents and sleeping bags. This action was taken at this time of day to reduce the risk of confrontation in the park, and to minimize disruption to the surrounding neighborhood.

“Protestors were asked to temporarily leave the park while this occurred, and have been told that they will be free to return to the park once Brookfield finishes cleaning it later this morning. Protestors – and the general public – are welcome there to exercise their First Amendment rights, and otherwise enjoy the park, but will not be allowed to use tents, sleeping bags, or tarps and, going forward, must follow all park rules.

“The law that created Zuccotti Park required that it be open for the public to enjoy for passive recreation 24 hours a day. Ever since the occupation began, that law has not been complied with, as the park has been taken over by protestors, making it unavailable to anyone else.

“From the beginning, I have said that the City had two principal goals: guaranteeing public health and safety, and guaranteeing the protestors’ First Amendment rights.
“But when those two goals clash, the health and safety of the public and our first responders must be the priority.
“That is why, several weeks ago the City acted to remove generators and fuel that posed a fire hazard from the park.

“I have become increasingly concerned – as had the park’s owner, Brookfield Properties – that the occupation was coming to pose a health and fire safety hazard to the protestors and to the surrounding community. We have been in constant contact with Brookfield and yesterday they requested that the City assist it in enforcing the no sleeping and camping rules in the park. But make no mistake – the final decision to act was mine.

“The park had become covered in tents and tarps, making it next to impossible to safely navigate for the public, and for first responders who are responsible for guaranteeing public safety. The dangers posed were evident last week when an EMT was injured as protestors attempted to prevent him and several police officers from helping a mentally ill man who was menacing others. As an increasing number of large tents and other structures have been erected, these dangers have increased. It has become increasingly difficult even to monitor activity in the park to protect the protestors and the public, and the proliferation of tents and other obstructions has created an increasing fire hazard that had to be addressed.

“Some have argued to allow the protestors to stay in the park indefinitely – others have suggested we just wait for winter and hope the cold weather drove the protestors away – but inaction was not an option. I could not wait for someone in the park to get killed or to injure another first responder before acting. Others have cautioned against action because enforcing our laws might be used by some protestors as a pretext for violence – but we must never be afraid to insist on compliance with our laws.

“Unfortunately, the park was becoming a place where people came not to protest, but rather to break laws, and in some cases, to harm others. There have been reports of businesses being threatened and complaints about noise and unsanitary conditions that have seriously impacted the quality of life for residents and businesses in this now-thriving neighborhood. The majority of protestors have been peaceful and responsible. But an unfortunate minority have not been – and as the number of protestors has grown, this has created an intolerable situation.

“No right is absolute and with every right comes responsibilities. The First Amendment gives every New Yorker the right to speak out – but it does not give anyone the right to sleep in a park or otherwise take it over to the exclusion of others – nor does it permit anyone in our society to live outside the law. There is no ambiguity in the law here – the First Amendment protects speech – it does not protect the use of tents and sleeping bags to take over a public space.

“Protestors have had two months to occupy the park with tents and sleeping bags. Now they will have to occupy the space with the power of their arguments.

“Let me conclude by thanking the NYPD, FDNY, and the Department of Sanitation for their professionalism earlier this morning. Thank you.”

 

[dave is ok]

No you should be. I stand firm for the rights of free speech and marriage rights, I don't make exceptions.

So corporations should be allowed to marry?

I think Burger King and Wendys would make a cute couple

 

[Baraka in the White House]

No you should be. I stand firm for the rights of free speech and marriage rights, I don't make exceptions.

Corporations should have the right to marry people, even other corporations if they wish!

Manos 2012

 

[venne]

Well considering people want to oppress the rights of free speech, you're acting no better than the people who passed Prop 8 and wanted to restrict marriage rights, both basic fundamental rights.

LOL, defend that legal fiction.

 

[Angry Fork]

u-mad.jpg

Manos does succeed in trolling me, without a doubt. Usually I love trolls because I know they're just fucking with people for the lulz, but Manos actually believes what he's spewing which makes my skin crawl. People who defend police brutality and corporations are more infuriating than even creationists.

OWS and Common Sense aren't really synonymous with each other..

I do like the attempt to call me a racist though who wouldn't have have supported the Civil Rights movement.

No I'm saying if you were say in your 30s during the 60s, you'd probably be a racist and opposed to equality. The water hoses and police dogs would be a breath of fresh air for you and if there was an internet then you'd be defending it with every bone in your body the way you do the defense in this thread.

 

[alstein]

Bloomberg sounds just like a dictator here. Hopefully folks can get rid of him in a couple of years. Maybe start a recall if it's allowed in NYC?

NY Times is reporting on their twitter feed that a judge has put an injunction vs Bloomberg on this, saying he can't make up laws about this after the protest started.

http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/11/15/updates-on-the-clearing-of-zuccotti-park/?ref=nyregion

You have to scroll down a bit.

 

[Choke on the Magic]

Hypothetical?

As in the supreme court would come to that decision again.

 

[Angry Fork]

Bloomberg's statement boils down to "we let you have some fun but now we're getting annoyed at your peaceful persistence, so how about you shut up and get the fuck out, by the way I do believe in free speech trololo"

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

No I'm saying if you were say in your 30s during the 60s, you'd probably be a racist and opposed to equality. The water hoses and police dogs would be a breath of fresh air for you and if there was an internet then you'd be defending it with every bone in your body the way you do the defense in this thread.

I really can't help you out with that. If you honestly think that than you're an idiot.

So corporations should be allowed to marry?

I think Burger King and Wendys would make a cute couple

Corporations should have the right to marry people, even other corporations if they wish!

Manos 2012

I totally support homocorporation along with hetrocorporation marriage. Though I think mergers and acquisitions deal with that, but I guess it's a point valid that you shouldn't have two separate classes for marriage.

 

[.GqueB.]

Bloomberg's statement boils down to "we let you have some fun but now we're getting annoyed at your peaceful persistence, so how about you shut up and get the fuck out, by the way I do believe in free speech trololo"

They are being let back into the park. They just cant camp out anymore. How are people missing this rather important point?

 

[Choke on the Magic]

Bloomberg's statement boils down to "we let you have some fun but now we're getting annoyed at your peaceful persistence, so how about you shut up and get the fuck out, by the way I do believe in free speech trololo"

Can you really argue that these protests didn't turn into a big problem for public health and saftey? And please don't argue that the people causing the problems were not really part of the protests. Are the reports of poor sanitation, attacks on reporters, rapes etc. really just made up?

 

[Mercury Fred]

They are being let back into the park. They just cant camp out anymore. How are people missing this rather important point?

How are people missing the rather important points that this action went down with police brutality, the mass destruction of personal property and the denial of first amendment rights?

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

How are people missing the rather important points that this action went down with police brutality, the mass destruction of personal property and the denial of first amendment rights?

What are you talking about?

I'd also like some real evidence, not just from OWS people, about proof about the destruction of the books and not that they're being held to be claimed. Unlike the other non occurring issues you mentioned, the destruction of private property (though if it's not owned by anyone and just left for anyone to take it might be a different issue) is something that should be investigated.

 

[Lucis]

Have you guys actually seen the crazy demands the original occupy wall street people came out with?

While I do think that the wealth gap is going to cause problem in the future. But the occupy movement is nothing but a bunch of crazy wanting something that's even crazier than themselves. Then a bunch of sheeple following steps because the general idea sounded "good".

Demand one: Restoration of the living wage. This demand can only be met by ending "Freetrade" by re-imposing trade tariffs on all imported goods entering the American market to level the playing field for domestic family farming and domestic manufacturing as most nations that are dumping cheap products onto the American market have radical wage and environmental regulation advantages. Another policy that must be instituted is raise the minimum wage to twenty dollars an hr.

Demand two: Institute a universal single payer healthcare system. To do this all private insurers must be banned from the healthcare market as their only effect on the health of patients is to take money away from doctors, nurses and hospitals preventing them from doing their jobs and hand that money to wall st. investors.

Demand three: Guaranteed living wage income regardless of employment.

Demand four: Free college education.

Demand five: Begin a fast track process to bring the fossil fuel economy to an end while at the same bringing the alternative energy economy up to energy demand.

Demand six: One trillion dollars in infrastructure (Water, Sewer, Rail, Roads and Bridges and Electrical Grid) spending now.

Demand seven: One trillion dollars in ecological restoration planting forests, reestablishing wetlands and the natural flow of river systems and decommissioning of all of America's nuclear power plants.

Demand eight: Racial and gender equal rights amendment.

Demand nine: Open borders migration. anyone can travel anywhere to work and live.

Demand ten: Bring American elections up to international standards of a paper ballot precinct counted and recounted in front of an independent and party observers system.

Demand eleven: Immediate across the board debt forgiveness for all. Debt forgiveness of sovereign debt, commercial loans, home mortgages, home equity loans, credit card debt, student loans and personal loans now! All debt must be stricken from the "Books." World Bank Loans to all Nations, Bank to Bank Debt and all Bonds and Margin Call Debt in the stock market including all Derivatives or Credit Default Swaps, all 65 trillion dollars of them must also be stricken from the "Books." And I don't mean debt that is in default, I mean all debt on the entire planet period.

Demand twelve: Outlaw all credit reporting agencies.

Demand thirteen: Allow all workers to sign a ballot at any time during a union organizing campaign or at any time that represents their yeah or nay to having a union represent them in collective bargaining or to form a union.
These demands will create so many jobs it will be completely impossible to fill them without an open borders policy.

Tell me those aren't crazy.

 

[travisbickle]

There we go from Major Bloomberg

“The law that created Zuccotti Park required that it be open for the public to enjoy for passive recreation 24 hours a day."

Just stand and look at the flowers guys, any gathering together and playing in group activities and we'll get the police to kick your ass.

Normal activity in public spaces is slowly being eroded away by the influence of private organisations.

 

[richiek]

How are people missing the rather important points that this action went down with police brutality, the mass destruction of personal property and the denial of first amendment rights?

Not to mention that the NYPD restricted press coverage when they dismantled Zucotti Park.

 

[rocksteady1983]

I haven't been following this whole "occupy" thing really at all but I chuckled at what Frank Miller said about it:

"“Occupy” is nothing but a pack of louts, thieves, and rapists, an unruly mob, fed by Woodstock-era nostalgia and putrid false righteousness. These clowns can do nothing but harm America. This is no popular uprising. This is garbage. Maybe, between bouts of self-pity and all the other tasty tidbits of narcissism you’ve been served up in your sheltered, comfy little worlds, you’ve heard terms like al-Qaeda and Islamicism. And this enemy of mine — not of yours, apparently - must be getting a dark chuckle, if not an outright horselaugh - out of your vain, childish, self-destructive spectacle. In the name of decency, go home to your parents, you losers."

Full story at link.
http://frankmillerink.com/2011/11/anarchy

 

[Mael]

Demand eight: Racial and gender equal rights amendment.

Demand ten: Bring American elections up to international standards of a paper ballot precinct counted and recounted in front of an independent and party observers system.

OMG so crazy?
the rest is lunacy though...and the last one I don't even get.

 

[140.85]

Well said Bloomberg. Sometimes you're alright.

 

[Mercury Fred]

Not to mention that the NYPD restricted press coverage when they dismantled Zucotti Park.

Exactly, when I talk about the violation of first amendment rights, that's part of what I'm talking about.

And I would say it went far beyond just restricting. The NYPD shut down the press and brutalized American citizens last night in a manner that would demand US military action if it had happened in any other country.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Not to mention that the NYPD restricted press coverage when they dismantled Zucotti Park.

That often happens during police operations, it's not really that odd.

 

[Choke on the Magic]

I haven't been following this whole "occupy" thing really at all but I chuckled at what Frank Miller said about it:

"“Occupy” is nothing but a pack of louts, thieves, and rapists, an unruly mob, fed by Woodstock-era nostalgia and putrid false righteousness. These clowns can do nothing but harm America. This is no popular uprising. This is garbage. Maybe, between bouts of self-pity and all the other tasty tidbits of narcissism you’ve been served up in your sheltered, comfy little worlds, you’ve heard terms like al-Qaeda and Islamicism. And this enemy of mine — not of yours, apparently - must be getting a dark chuckle, if not an outright horselaugh - out of your vain, childish, self-destructive spectacle. In the name of decency, go home to your parents, you losers."

http://www.wwtdd.com/2011/11/frank-miller-calls-occupy-louts-thieves-and-rapists/

+1 Frank Miller

 

[venne]

Tell me those aren't crazy.

Some are definitely out there (all debts cleared? Let me get a couple houses first), but I don't see an issue with the desire for the country to invest in its citizenry and infrastructure.

 

[alstein]

Have you guys actually seen the crazy demands the original occupy wall street people came out with?

While I do think that the wealth gap is going to cause problem in the future. But the occupy movement is nothing but a bunch of crazy wanting something that's even crazier than themselves. Then a bunch of sheeple following steps because the general idea sounded "good".



Tell me those aren't crazy.

It's no crazier then the demands that are getting passed in some states such as Wisconsin by the Scott Walker-types.

I don't agree with all those changes myself, but the country would be better off moving in that direction from where it's at.

I am seriously worried about freedom of assembly being downtrodden. I'm sure Egypt claimed their protests against Mubarak carried a "health risk" as well.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

And I would say it went far beyond just restricting. The NYPD shut down the press and brutalized American citizens last night in a manner that would demand US military action if it had happened in any other country.

No, it didn't. But I congratulate you for making one of the funnier comparisons I've seen recently. Please tell me where the NYPD used jets, machine gun, tanks, and/or artillery to clear the park.

 

[richiek]

+1 Frank Miller

So you're now defending an racist, Islamophobic crackpot. +1 for you.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Some are definitely out there (all debts cleared? Let me get a couple houses first), but I don't see an issue with the desire for the country to invest in its citizenry and infrastructure.

No it isn't. The problem is when a legit idea gets mixed in the with the batshit crazy, it only hurts those trying to actually achieve those goals when it gets co-opted by nutters.

 

[Choke on the Magic]

So you're now defending an racist, Islamophobic crackpot. +1 for you.

But what about the 1st amendment?

 

[Cyrillus]

Man, the schadenfreude in this thread is palpable, and disgusting.

It's really too bad the OWS protesters are focusing on petty issues like the tax system, transparency of government, and the corrupt relationship between government and private industry, instead of focusing on the real pressing matters like gun control, abortion, and preventing communism.

 

[Deleted member 47027]

No it isn't. The problem is when a legit idea gets mixed in the with the batshit crazy, it only hurts those trying to actually achieve those goals when it gets co-opted by nutters.

That's indicative of the whole problem with it. The batshit crazy is mixed with legit. OWS should take this time to restructure and do shit properly, focused, and rationally.