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[Flying_Phoenix]

Why are people arguing with Manos?

 

[Choke on the Magic]

Fuck the mantra of fair and balanced. I want news that is deliberately biased in favor of what is actually true.

Wouldn't that be.... unbiased news?

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

First, tell that to MLK, Jr. Second, this is irrelevant to the discussion at hand, which is not about whether I as an executive of a corporation am going to violate some erroneous understanding granting constitutional rights to the entity I manage (as if that were even possible). This is a normative discussion about how corporations ought to be understood, a discussion you are steadfastly avoiding engaging in.

Would you tell a client to ignore Citizens United, because you don't like it. The only thing I have been discussing and you have been avoiding is what us the law, not what you want.

 

[NervousXtian]

Holy shit at that list of demands:

Number 1 would destroy the country:

"Another policy that must be instituted is raise the minimum wage to twenty dollars an hr."

My company would have to double what we charge for service, and where do you think that increased cost of business would go into? You think companies could just eat that? Also, you drive min. wage up that high, more than likely you just cause mass inflation and a further lowering of the middle class as you wouldn't see others receive a 2.5x increase in wage. You'd destroy the middle class even more.


Occupy Washington, the beef is with politicians.

 

[Alpha-Bromega]

what a tragedy. please guys don't argue with Manos anymore, don't even feed the idiot that is Bulbo either. just hope and see what the future lies in store

i really do implore you, really.

 

[.GqueB.]

But that's what the person wants. They want to screw with you to make you mad when in reality they don't believe half if any of the stuff they spew out.

Oh I know what they want. Im just explaining why it works so well... pretty much every time. If you want an even better example, look at the LOST official thread. One person (JUST ONE) has been trolling that thread for months. He alone is keeping it alive. Its quite amazing to witness.

 

[Something Wicked]

It's pretty impossible to find a unbiased news source these days.

That does not exist and will never exist.

If a source is blatantly targeting a specific demographic group (like Fox News and MSNBC), the viewer should be able to recognize that and use the info given as just a piece of the puzzle- not the absolute complete story.

 

[Mortrialus]

Wouldn't that be.... unbiased news?

No. For starters it means not giving time to those shown to be repeatedly dishonest and unreliable.

 

[Choke on the Magic]

Holy shit at that list of demands:

Number 1 would destroy the country:

"Another policy that must be instituted is raise the minimum wage to twenty dollars an hr."

My company would have to double what we charge for service, and where do you think that increased cost of business would go into? You think companies could just eat that? Also, you drive min. wage up that high, more than likely you just cause mass inflation and a further lowering of the middle class as you wouldn't see others receive a 2.5x increase in wage. You'd destroy the middle class even more.


Occupy Washington, the beef is with politicians.

Lolz. I would quit my job and go work at Gamestop.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

what a tragedy. please guys don't argue with Manos anymore, don't even feed the idiot that is Bulbo either. just hope and see what the future lies in store

i really do implore you, really.

Sorry you can't participate in a discussion if it has people involved who disagree with you.

 

[Choke on the Magic]

No. For starters it means not giving time to those shown to be repeatedly dishonest and unreliable.

I'm seriously intriged now. So basically news with no politicians?

 

[Angry Fork]

what a tragedy. please guys don't argue with Manos anymore, don't even feed the idiot that is Bulbo either. just hope and see what the future lies in store

i really do implore you, really.

I try, but sometimes the way Manos words things I feel compelled to understand why he thinks the way he does. I don't believe he's 100% always trolling (in the sense that he doesn't believe what he's saying and just says it for effect). I think he does believe most of what he says which irritates me even more. I like debating and understanding why people think the way they do which is why I reply sometimes. Some people are just beyond help though I suppose.

Sorry you can't participate in a discussion if it has people involved who disagree with you.

It's more about not wanting to debate with someone who is so irrational, like the example I used before about debating creationists. It's like punching a brick wall.

 

[Choke on the Magic]

I try, but sometimes the way Manos words things I feel compelled to understand why he thinks the way he does. I don't believe he's 100% always trolling (in the sense that he doesn't believe what he's saying and just says it for effect). I think he does believe most of what he says which irritates me even more. I like debating and understanding why people think the way they do which is why I reply sometimes. Some people are just beyond help though I suppose.


It's more about not wanting to debate with someone who is so irrational, like the example I used before about debating creationists. It's like punching a brick wall.

What's irrational about disagreeing with you?

 

[Mortrialus]

I'm seriously intriged now. So basically news with no politicians?

Perhaps not never. For example, hosting, say, the Republican Presidential Debates is fine as long as you have an active and comprehensive team of fact checkers to confirm or debunk claims made throughout the show, and moderators willing to call them on their bullshit. Perhaps dedicating specials specifically analyzing each and every claim made during the debate.

 

[Angry Fork]

What's irrational about disagreeing with you?

Believing that a corporation should have rights is irrational (or illogical might be a better word), period. I could talk about Manos' deranged fetish with police brutality or the staunch defense of guns but I won't bother. The corporation thing holds enough weight on it's own to let you know he's one of those people that you just shouldn't waste time on.

 

[Deleted member 47027]

I could talk about Manos' deranged fetish with police brutality

When you talk like this, using this kind of hyperbole, it's hard to take what you say seriously. Just sayin.

 

[Baraka in the White House]

I try, but sometimes the way Manos words things I feel compelled to understand why he thinks the way he does. I don't believe he's 100% always trolling (in the sense that he doesn't believe what he's saying and just says it for effect). I think he does believe most of what he says which irritates me even more. I like debating and understanding why people think the way they do which is why I reply sometimes. Some people are just beyond help though I suppose.

Oh he was textbook trolling for most of this thread and just about all of the last one, which is why his recent spate of, "Oh well I guess you guys just can't handle differing opinions *trollface*" posts are so full of shit. I'm not saying him being an obnoxious ass in the past disqualifies him from honest debate now but on the other hand he's got no one else to blame but himself for the reception he gets here.

 

[Mercury Fred]

what a tragedy. please guys don't argue with Manos anymore, don't even feed the idiot that is Bulbo either. just hope and see what the future lies in store

i really do implore you, really.

Agreed, it's like trying to talk philosophy with Kim Kardashian.

 

[Dartastic]

Those pictures make me rage.

Occupy Portland was so dirty that it needed cleaning up.

Unfortunately our homeless population got a good grip on the camp, and the amount of rain here makes things icky. Sad. When this happens, they lose their message and it has a negative effect on the validity of their movement. I'm interested to see how they decide to move forward, and I hope this protest keeps going on.

 

[Angry Fork]

When you talk like this, using this kind of hyperbole, it's hard to take what you say seriously. Just sayin.

It isn't hyperbole, check his posts in this thread. The most recent being around the flash bang incident (or whatever it was). It's pretty obvious he gets off when bad things are done to these protestors.

 

[Choke on the Magic]

Believing that a corporation should have rights is irrational (or illogical might be a better word), period. I could talk about Manos' deranged fetish with police brutality or the staunch defense of guns but I won't bother. The corporation thing holds enough weight on it's own to let you know he's one of those people that you just shouldn't waste time on.

What rights do corporations have that you disagree with? The lobbying? Also what's wrong with guns? They're awesome.

 

[.GqueB.]

Agreed, it's like trying to talk philosophy with Kim Kardashian.

Dont be mean.

 

[Mortrialus]

What rights do corporations have that you disagree with? The lobbying? Also what's wrong with guns? They're awesome.

The ability to channel unlimited money towards political candidates. Frankly, they shouldn't have to right to channel any money towards political candidates as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Unfortunately our homeless population got a good grip on the camp, and the amount of rain here makes things icky. Sad. When this happens, they lose their message and it has a negative effect on the validity of their movement. I'm interested to see how they decide to move forward, and I hope this protest keeps going on.

So the homeless can't hang out with the Occupy group? That's pretty messed up. Aren't they part of the 99%?

 

[dave is ok]

So the homeless can't hang out with the Occupy group? That's pretty messed up. Aren't they part of the 99%?

3/10

 

[Mercury Fred]

Dont be mean.

Mean? I thought I was being generous.

 

[aparisi2274]

As someone who works near Zucotti park I am very happy that they were booted.

Now before you go bitching and moaning that I am someone who doesn't support this movement, let me set the record straight and say that I wholeheartedly support this movement and I want to see changes made sooner rather than later, but the fact of the matter is the protesters (and I use that term very loosely) lost sight of what they were protesting. There were signs for OWS. There were signs for Pedophilia (really??????) and there were signs calling for a stop to ALL vaccinations and the use of fluoride in our water.

The entire park was a mess, there were homeless people camping out with the protesters. There were thieves, muggers and hell I think they even caught a would be rapist. The entire park was filthy, piss, feces, and other bodily fluids all over the place.

The movement was killing local businesses and costing that area hundreds of thousands of dollars in lost revenue. In recent weeks the entire area has become a huge tourist destination for photo ops and to say they were part of the movement.

All in All, I am glad to see that Mayor Mike finally did something about it. If they want to protest, let them, but they need to go home at night and then come back. You can't have them living in a Shantytown for over 2 months and expect people not to care!

Can't wait to see what happens next though....

 

[empty vessel]

What rights do corporations have that you disagree with? The lobbying?

All of them. Because corporations are creatures of government, it's the equivalent of an assertion that a government has "rights," which is in turn the equivalent of an assertion that a government has inherent authority, as distinguished from a government of authority conferred by the people. The idea that governments had inherent authority is precisely what American revolutionaries opposed and liberated themselves from. Read the Declaration of Independence.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

3/10

Ignore it all you want but it seems that the Occupy movement is at times both sacred and openly hostile to the homeless.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

As someone who works near Zucotti park I am very happy that they were booted.

Now before you go bitching and moaning that I am someone who doesn't support this movement, let me set the record straight and say that I wholeheartedly support this movement and I want to see changes made sooner rather than later, but the fact of the matter is the protesters (and I use that term very loosely) lost sight of what they were protesting. There were signs for OWS. There were signs for Pedophilia (really??????) and there were signs calling for a stop to ALL vaccinations and the use of fluoride in our water.

The entire park was a mess, there were homeless people camping out with the protesters. There were thieves, muggers and hell I think they even caught a would be rapist. The entire park was filthy, piss, feces, and other bodily fluids all over the place.

The movement was killing local businesses and costing that area hundreds of thousands of dollars in lost revenue. In recent weeks the entire area has become a huge tourist destination for photo ops and to say they were part of the movement.

All in All, I am glad to see that Mayor Mike finally did something about it. If they want to protest, let them, but they need to go home at night and then come back. You can't have them living in a Shantytown for over 2 months and expect people not to care!

Can't wait to see what happens next though....

Wait you mean OWS wasn't keeping the place safe and in good condition?

 

[Choke on the Magic]

The ability to channel unlimited money towards political candidates. Frankly, they shouldn't have to right to channel any money towards political candidates as far as I'm concerned.

So lobbying. As I recall and correct me if I'm wrong part of Obama's campaign was to change the lobbying culture in Washington. He didn't and if fact he gave tax money to prop failing companies. I wouldn't count on Republicans to do anything either. Looks like your only option is to protest without camping out and vote for someone who's actually against it.

 

[Schattenjäger]

Good riddens - the stench there was unbearable

 

[Dartastic]

Ignore it all you want but it seems that the Occupy movement is at times both sacred and openly hostile to the homeless.

The problem is that with a larger homeless population, it brings all the problems that one would normally occur when you have a large percentage of homeless people in one place. Crime, drug use, etc. It dilutes the message, and is problematic for the movement.

I wouldn't say they're scared or hostile to the people themselves, they just don't want the idea and the relevancy of the movement to be damaged beyond repair.

 

[Schattenjäger]

Fair and balanced folks.

Seriously, Fox and Friends is some of the worst programming in the history of television. Who the fuck seriously watches it, even if you're a conservative?

Even the daily news agrees with Bloomberg - and that truly is saying something

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

The problem is that with a larger homeless population, it brings all the problems that one would normally occur when you have a large percentage of homeless in one place. Crime, drug use, etc. It dilutes the message, and is problematic for the movement.

You need a way to work through it though, because you have to admit it makes Occupy looks disingenuous at best and hypocrites at worst. Don't you think?

 

[Dartastic]

Oh ffs it's Fox News. *facepalm*

 

[Choke on the Magic]

All of them. Because corporations are creatures of government, it's the equivalent of an assertion that a government has "rights," which is in turn the equivalent of an assertion that a government has inherent authority, as distinguished from a government of authority conferred by the people. The idea that governments had inherent authority is precisely what American revolutionaries opposed and liberated themselves from. Read the Declaration of Independence.

So you want an end to lobbying. So why are these protesters not protesting DC and DC alone. They are the law makers and the only ones who can really change anything. You're tax dollars go to these companies and no one seems to be attacking the lawmakers, just the corporations. It seems backwards a bit.

 

[Dartastic]

You need a way to work through it though, because you have to admit it makes Occupy looks disingenuous at best and hypocrites at worst. Don't you think?

I would agree. It's a major issue that they have to work through, and it's part of the reason why I believe that it's time for them to take a wider variety of action and start doing things other than occupying parks. The problem is that I'm not sure anyone actually knows quite what the correct method of action is yet.

I fully support the message and ideas of the movement, but people are definitely getting irritated. One of my friends made this statement on his FB recently; "Occupy Pdx, you've cost the city and it's tax paying ppl over 320,000 in police OT as well as over 19,000 in damages to our parks. Portland supports you, buts it's time to get serious and find a real home to effect change (one that isn't infested with drug use and homelessness). Adams and our cops are not your enemies, wall street is. Give the park back to it THE PUBLIC, stop embarrassing our city and making your fellow tax payers pay for your mess." They really need to start to think of other solutions outside of just occupation.

 

[.GqueB.]

So you want an end to lobbying. So why are these protesters not protesting DC and DC alone. They are the law makers and the only ones who can really change anything. You're tax dollars go to these companies and no one seems to be attacking the lawmakers, just the corporations. It seems backwards a bit.

Because they were told by someone at some point that Wall st (the street itself) ruined the economy. I was always wondering why they werent in DC or some place "political". Seems strange to me.

 

[Schattenjäger]

They should combine every OWS faction - hold a big walk to DC and march there and protest

 

[.GqueB.]

They should combine every OWS faction - hold a big walk to DC and march there and protest

Agreed. It would make a LOT of sense.

 

[sangreal]

The ability to channel unlimited money towards political candidates. Frankly, they shouldn't have to right to channel any money towards political candidates as far as I'm concerned.

Corporations are not allowed to give any money to political candidates.

 

[empty vessel]

So you want an end to lobbying. So why are these protesters not protesting DC and DC alone. They are the law makers and the only ones who can really change anything. You're tax dollars go to these companies and no one seems to be attacking the lawmakers, just the corporations. It seems backwards a bit.

I don't want an end to lobbying per se, although I do want an end to corporate lobbying. These protesters are protesting DC. The goal is to effect a change of policy. The protest is rhetorically and symbolically aimed at Wall Street, because they are the villains whom our corrupted Congress serves. It both legitimates the message in terms of the public (who rightly understand Wall Street to be a wretched hive of scum and villainy responsible for the financial crisis and recession) and is a constant demonstration to Congress and Wall Street that the public understands the game. One objective would be to drive a wedge between Congress and Wall Street to create space for reform. A public presence relentlessly targeting Wall Street makes representatives less inclined to champion it, even rhetorically, or to hop into bed with it, creating space for reform.

Corporations are not allowed to give any money to political candidates.

He did say towards candidates.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

Holy shit at that list of demands:

Number 1 would destroy the country:

"Another policy that must be instituted is raise the minimum wage to twenty dollars an hr."

My company would have to double what we charge for service, and where do you think that increased cost of business would go into? You think companies could just eat that? Also, you drive min. wage up that high, more than likely you just cause mass inflation and a further lowering of the middle class as you wouldn't see others receive a 2.5x increase in wage. You'd destroy the middle class even more.


Occupy Washington, the beef is with politicians.

you start with incredibly high demands, then you get them down as you continue on debating with the opposing side.

If you start with what you really want, what you get will always be far less than you want. You have to start high, since during policy making, your demands will only decrease.

 

[Wazzim]

They should combine every OWS faction - hold a big walk to DC and march there and protest

Not everyone can pay an airplane ticket, some of them are jobless you know. It would be amazing to see though.

 

[Choke on the Magic]

I don't want an end to lobbying per se, although I do want an end to corporate lobbying. These protesters are protesting DC. The goal is to effect a change of policy. The protest is rhetorically and symbolically aimed at Wall Street, because they are the villains whom our corrupted Congress serves. It both legitimates the message in terms of the public (who rightly understand Wall Street to be a wretched hive of scum and villainy responsible for the financial crisis and recession) and is a constant demonstration to Congress and Wall Street that the public understands the game. One objective would be to drive a wedge between Congress and Wall Street to create space for reform. A public presence relentlessly targeting Wall Street makes representatives less inclined to champion it, even rhetorically, or to hop into bed with it, creating space for reform.



He did say towards candidates.

What other lobbying is there really aside from corporate lobbying really. I think you give our government too much credit. It's a symbiotic relationship not to mention those OWS people have the ability to effect the political landscape. Occupying wallstreet does nothing for the cause imo. Everyone doing the OWS in DC would send a more powerful message and maybe make the people in power do something. And again let me say that Obama did say he wanted to reform Washington lobbying and I haven't seen an inkling of that since he's taken office. Just like all the other polictians.

 

[ReBurn]

Corporations are not allowed to give any money to political candidates.

But they are allowed to form PACs and other lobbying organizations and organize their employees to contribute on behalf of the company.

http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/summary.php?id=D000000115
http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/summary.php?id=D000000094
http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/summary.php?id=D000000085

What other lobbying is there really aside from corporate lobbying really.

Activist and advocacy groups spend a lot of money on lobbying. Like corporations, these groups tend to operate under charters from the government. They have charters to maintain their nonprofit status.

 

[Schattenjäger]

Not everyone can pay an airplane ticket, some of them are jobless you know. It would be amazing to see though.

I thought they get donations - also its a march - they can walk - im sure it would get a lot of media attention

 

[Wazzim]

I thought they get donations - also its a march - they can walk - im sure it would get a lot of media attention

Ah like that, yeah that would be crazy cool to see. It can take a while to walk thousands of miles though

 

[ezrarh]

I thought they get donations - also its a march - they can walk - im sure it would get a lot of media attention

As cool as that would be, it'd be the trail of tears by the time they finish if they start now.