Support NeoGAF

[Angry Fork]

I totally support homocorporation along with hetrocorporation marriage. Though I think mergers and acquisitions deal with that, but I guess it's a point valid that you shouldn't have two separate classes for marriage.

Do you think a corporation is a human being? Like the word 'Goldman Sachs', is it alive right now breathing, heart beating etc?

Can you really argue that these protests didn't turn into a big problem for public health and saftey? And please don't argue that the people causing the problems were not really part of the protests. Are the reports of poor sanitation, attacks on reporters, rapes etc. really just made up?

I'm saying they're a necessary bi-product of a good thing. Although if there are attacks on reporters/rapes that has nothing to do with the movement and are not bi-products of that obviously.

That often happens during police operations, it's not really that odd.

So if brutality happens nobody could record it right?

 

[Dude Abides]

Some are definitely out there (all debts cleared? Let me get a couple houses first), but I don't see an issue with the desire for the country to invest in its citizenry and infrastructure.

Debt relief is a common demand in protests centering around economic justice.

 

[Choke on the Magic]

Do you think a corporation is a human being? Like the word 'Goldman Sachs', is it alive right now breathing, heart beating etc?


I'm saying they're a necessary bi-product of a good thing. Although if there are attacks on reporters/rapes that has nothing to do with the movement and are not bi-products of that obviously.


So if brutality happens nobody could record it right?

I'm just going to politely say I 100% disagree.

 

[Lucis]

It's no crazier then the demands that are getting passed in some states such as Wisconsin by the Scott Walker-types.

I don't agree with all those changes myself, but the country would be better off moving in that direction from where it's at.

I am seriously worried about freedom of assembly being downtrodden. I'm sure Egypt claimed their protests against Mubarak carried a "health risk" as well.

We won't be better off moving that way.
What this nation lacks is responsibility, especially fiscal responsibility, both on the government side and on the population side.
Sure we need to get money out of politics, but after that, we still need to come back to the debt problem. This country is too deep into debt for what it should be. Like I said, I agree wealth gap causes problem, that can be fixed by getting money out of politics. However those demands are nothing but a bunch of loonies came up after a session of smoke. You can't even go past #1 with out destroying the US.

 

[Flying_Phoenix]

Why are people so easy to troll on this site?

 

[Krauser Kat]

Can you really argue that these protests didn't turn into a big problem for public health and saftey? And please don't argue that the people causing the problems were not really part of the protests. Are the reports of poor sanitation, attacks on reporters, rapes etc. really just made up?

They are not made up. They are an extremely small sect of people. When you have an open air encampment a thug could easily come off the street just to assault someone in the camp. Do they need to camp to protest? no. Is it more impact to camp, most definitely.

 

[140.85]

It's no crazier then the demands that are getting passed in some states such as Wisconsin by the Scott Walker-types.

How exactly are those reforms "crazy"?

 

[Angry Fork]

What exactly are the criticisms of this in general?

Trash around/garbage - I don't know if this is true, but if it is then it's definitely the fault of the protestors and they should pick up after themselves/round up garbage.

Smelly - Another thing I wouldn't put up with personally. It's gross and I don't know why they wouldn't go home to shower then come back. Maybe it's just some homeless people that are fucking it up for everyone else.

Putting up tents and sleeping/getting in the way of park strollers - deal with it.gif, this is what I'm referring to when I say it's a necessary bi-product.

Attacks on reporters - Has this really happened? If so was it really an attack or more like a shove to get out of the way?

Rape - Has nothing to do with the movement/the people there and sounds like ridiculous straw man to try to compile something against the protestors.

Now given what this protest is about, why it's happening, how fucked up our country is etc. why can't people just deal with the first 3? What's the big deal? Who gives a shit if they sleep in a park? Groups of people are talking and sitting together OMG ALERT THE POLICE. Come on.

Winter time is coming anyway why would they WANT to sleep there in the cold unless they felt they needed to for a cause? Maybe they'll disperse on their own once winter comes and we'll see whether they really mean business or not but if they stay there then you know this isn't some camping ground for homeless people to chill and stink up the place.

 

[empty vessel]

Well considering people want to oppress the rights of free speech, you're acting no better than the people who passed Prop 8 and wanted to restrict marriage rights, both basic fundamental rights.

This is rich coming from a person defending the dispersing of a peaceful assembly of actual citizens by the police.

The notion that corporations have any rights at all is anathema to the principle of popular sovereignty on which the country was founded. Objectively. As you well know, corporations are legal entities created by the government. That they are placed in the control of American citizens doesn't meaningfully differentiate them from, say, executive agencies. The corporate form is used by the government because it is thought to serve some public end. Else, it would be completely illegitimate, given the governmental grant of power necessary to create it. Corporations are, accordingly, subservient to the people.

The flow of power under the American model of popular sovereignty is such that all power originally resides in the people and emanates from there. Thus: people => (grant of power via constitution) government => (grant of power via charter) corporation.

The suggestion that corporations have "rights" means that, despite having being a creature of government, they have powers over which the people have no control. That fundamentally violates the principle of popular sovereignty. And, indeed, if you studied American history, you would see just this understanding of the corporation. It was a corruption of the principle of popular sovereignty that led to corporations being viewed as private entities when they are anything but that.

To learn a little bit about this American legal history, see Corporations and the Public Purpose: Restoring the Balance, available at: http://www.corporatepolicy.org/issues/corppurpose.pdf

 

[Mercury Fred]

Man, the schadenfreude in this thread is palpable, and disgusting.

Agreed. For better or worse, some people here love fascism and will defend it until the bitter end.

 

[shuri]

One of those clowns doing 'security' here at the Montreal event hilariously fucked up when interviewed by a reporter who was him the entire night; at some point he talked about breaking, fights and sexual assaults that had happened; the reporter went 'wtf wat' and the guy was like BUT WE DEALT WITH THESE INTERNALLY and refused to answer more questions about this.

gg security guy, gg!

The whole thing is a complete failure in montreal, I follow their activities on their facebook walls; they spend 3 scheduled hours a day meditating, their meetings are mostly about discussing about who will do what and who will have power over which internal team, and bla bla; it never ends. They also cut off the audio when people start questioning about how stuff is handled horribly. It's a giant power trip for clowns who never ever lived a hard day of their lives and want badly to feel like they are doing something that will be written down in history. The most succesful assemblies seems to be the one about which movies they are going to watch on the loaned projector setup.. And they keep watching those wacko conspiracy truther stuff all day long

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

That's indicative of the whole problem with it. The batshit crazy is mixed with legit. OWS should take this time to restructure and do shit properly, focused, and rationally.

I think that's a very valid point and what they need to do.

 

[MG310]

Luckily Frank Miller hasn't mattered since 1988

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

This is rich coming from a person defending the dispersing of a peaceful assembly of actual citizens by the police.

What peaceful and lawful assembly are you talking about?

To learn a little bit about this American legal history, see Corporations and the Public Purpose: Restoring the Balance, available at: http://www.corporatepolicy.org/issues/corppurpose.pdf

To learn a little more about the current law I suggest you read this.
Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission
available at:
http://www.scotusblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/citizens-opinion.pdf

 

[BruiserBear]

You haven't seen OWS signs asking for corporate money out of politics? It's been a pretty big issue for them.

You haven't been paying attention to the protests at all apparently, but just want them to leave the poor banks alone and protest the government. Got it

No, you haven't got it in the least.


I'm not about protecting banks or Wall Street, or whatever other buzzword people like to throw around in this conversation.

The only way anything is going to truly change is to elect people who are going to change the current laws that allow the banks and big business to run the show to the degree they do now.

I'm just suggesting the one thing that's actually going to get results for this movement, rather than waste time sitting in random parks. OCCUPY Washington would be a far more effective choice IMO, and I don't say that as some sort of Obama hater. I say it as a realist who thinks this movement has some merit. I just think they're going about it in a boneheaded way.

 

[140.85]

This is rich coming from a person defending the dispersing of a peaceful assembly of actual citizens by the police.

You just can't seem to grasp that nobody has an issue with the peaceful assembly part of all this.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

One of those clowns doing 'security' here at the Montreal event hilariously fucked up when interviewed by a reporter who was him the entire night; at some point he talked about breaking, fights and sexual assaults that had happened; the reporter went 'wtf wat' and the guy was like BUT WE DEALT WITH THESE INTERNALLY and refused to answer more questions about this.

Did he go to or used to work for Penn State?

 

[.GqueB.]

Why are people so easy to troll on this site?

The desire to be right is a strong part of what it is to be human. So when the person you're debating with says some nonsensical, it makes it all the more appealing to debate because in our heads we feel it would be REALLY REALLY easy to be right because the other person is SO VERY wrong.

 

[Amibguous Cad]

It's no crazier then the demands that are getting passed in some states such as Wisconsin by the Scott Walker-types.

I don't agree with all those changes myself, but the country would be better off moving in that direction from where it's at.

I am seriously worried about freedom of assembly being downtrodden. I'm sure Egypt claimed their protests against Mubarak carried a "health risk" as well.

There are legit health and safety risks with having hundreds people living in a park for months on end that's not built for long term human habitation. The municipal governments are going to spend tens of thousands on cleanup, and I don't want to even think about what kind of sanitation concerns there are. You have the right to assemble, but you don't have the right to assemble anywhere and everywhere regardless of what costs you're imposing on everyone else. There are plenty of ways to protest that don't involve creating a ton of problems for other people to pay for and clean up.

That said, if I'm reading the news reports correctly, it's looking like they've got a court order to allow them back into the park, so fuck the police. They're not operating under the duly appointed process of law but by fiat. They're no better than any other citizens with a gun attempting to prevent anyone from going where they have a legal right to go.

 

[Angry Fork]

You just can't seem to grasp that nobody has an issue with the peaceful assembly part of all this.

They do have a problem with it, and they're using the tents bullshit as an excuse to stop them.

If it turns out they comply with those demands, and stop sleeping there, but still protest every day, watch how fast Bloomberg will think up some new shit to have them dispersed.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

This is a good sign.
http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2...ters-cut-lock-on-lot-owned-by-church-flood-in

Protesters Cut Lock on Lot Owned by Church, Flood In

@eduardosuarez eduardosuarez
Aquí les tienen. Los indignados NY empiezan a ocupar Duarte Park, junto a Canal Street http://t.co/cQz8goSu
Tue Nov 15 16:12:34 via eduardosuarez
For much of the morning, hundreds of protesters had been at Juan Pablo Duarte Square, a city park at Canal Street and Avenue of the Americas about a mile north of Zuccotti Park.

Just to the west of the square was a fenced-off, padlocked lot owned by Trinity Church, a giant landowner downtown that has been supportive of the protesters at times.

The protesters had their eye on the church's lot. In mid-morning, a delegation of protesters said they were trying to obtain permission from church officials to occupy the lot.

It was not clear how that negotiation went, but at 11 a.m., two protesters dressed in black, wearing black bandannas over the lower part of their faces, used bolt cutters to snip through the chain-link fence and the crowd began streaming in.

Even as they did, police vans sped down Varick Street toward Zuccotti Park, where another group of several hundred protesters was trying to retake the park.

- Colin Moynihan

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

http://gothamist.com/2011/11/15/occupy_wall_street_claims_new_park.php#photo-1

Occupy Wall Street has taken a new park at 6th Avenue and Canal Street, by the entrance to the Holland Tunnel, according to a spokesman for the protesters. The park, Duarte Square, is privately owned by Trinity Church, and according to a statement from the demonstrators, a "delegation of faith leaders just arrived to support the hundreds already gathered." But it's unclear if the occupation, which was kicked out of Zuccotti Park this morning, has the church's full blessing.
The Times reports that "a delegation of protesters met with church officials to try to obtain permission. It was not clear how that negotiation went, but at 11 a.m., two protesters dressed in black, wearing black bandannas over the lower part of their faces, used bolt cutters to snip through the chain-link fence and the crowd began streaming in."
According to the Daily News, the first tent has already been set up. Let the drumming and fornicating begin!

Update: Owen Premo, an Occupy Wall Street spokesman, tells us that there are about 50 people in the park at the moment. "The church has not given permission that I know of," says Premo. "There is a conversation happening between the Lower Manhattan Cultural Council, which administers the space, and the church, which owns it. This is one of their open public parks." Premo tells us the protesters' intention is to occupy the park in addition to a re-occupation of Zuccotti Park. He confirms that the occupiers streamed in after a fence was cut open, Now, according to Premo, approximately 50 police seem to be mobilizing to evict them.

 

[dave is ok]

The only way anything is going to truly change is to elect people who are going to change the current laws that allow the banks and big business to run the show to the degree they do now.

What makes you think these people exist? It costs an average of 6 million dollars to win a seat in Congress right now. A job that pays $174,000.00 a year

 

[Flying_Phoenix]

The desire to be right is a strong part of what it is to be human. So when the person you're debating with says some nonsensical, it makes it all the more appealing to debate because in our heads we feel it would be REALLY REALLY easy to be right because the other person is SO VERY wrong.

But that's what the person wants. They want to screw with you to make you mad when in reality they don't believe half if any of the stuff they spew out.

 

[Angry Fork]

This is a good sign.
http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2...ters-cut-lock-on-lot-owned-by-church-flood-in

Good sign for you, bad for the movement. 2 people dressed in black with bolt cutters doesn't speak for everyone there and it'll only make things worse.

 

[shuri]

I love that weird tactic that they try to use on people in the media too, they try to pull this strange shaming/guilting thing on people who disagree or don't really want to get involved (notice how its used here).. There was a big tv show sunday night on prime time, and 3 of them were invited to talk about what they are doing and so on,

anyhow the show has guests from various background, and it happened that they also had a singer here, who happens to be from Uganda. Anyhow during his interview, the Occupy people started interrupting the host, asking the singer how he felt about the movement and why he was not supporting them in the medias and bla bla.. The signer went 'well, I respect the movement and the fact that people have a right to protest, its all nice and everything, but it wont amount too much to be honest. There are bigger threats and problems in the world right now" ..

Then you had the 3 guys acting like he didnt care about 'poor people' and whatsnot bla bla bla.. The thing is..

That singer grew up in Uganda, during the civil wars they had over there. His _entire_ family was raped and slaughtered using bayonettes for a couple of hours, while he was hiding under a couch. When they interrupted him with their puerile bullshit, he was talking about how his seeing his newborn kid was incredible for him becasue it was the first family member of his own blood that he had 'seen' since he survived the massacre decades ago.

It was just fucked up that those clowns were trying to make him look/feel bad about their stuff when the dude actually had known misery and ACTUAL EXTREME BRUTALITY first hand..

They looked like such disconnected fools

 

[Choke on the Magic]

This is a good sign.
http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2...ters-cut-lock-on-lot-owned-by-church-flood-in

This must be the small minority that has infiltrated the peaceful OWS movement.

 

[empty vessel]

What peaceful and lawful assembly are you talking about?

I am referring to the peaceful assembly of American citizens at Zuccotti park.

To learn a little more about the current law I suggest you read this.
Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission
available at:
http://www.scotusblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/citizens-opinion.pdf

To learn a little bit about doctrinally bankrupt Supreme Court decisions, I suggest you read this.

Plessy v. Ferguson, available at: http://scholar.google.com/scholar_c...215717&q=plessy+v.+ferguson&hl=en&as_sdt=2,44
Dred Scott v. Sanford, available at: http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=3231372247892780026&q=scott+v.+sanford&hl=en&as_sdt=2,44
Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission
available at: http://www.scotusblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/citizens-opinion.pdf

Good sign for you, bad for the movement. 2 people dressed in black with bolt cutters doesn't speak for everyone there and it'll only make things worse.

And of course the distinct possibility of state action.

You just can't seem to grasp that nobody has an issue with the peaceful assembly part of all this.

To the contrary, it's all that many of you have a problem with, and obviously so.

 

[jorma]

Have you guys actually seen the crazy demands the original occupy wall street people came out with?

While I do think that the wealth gap is going to cause problem in the future. But the occupy movement is nothing but a bunch of crazy wanting something that's even crazier than themselves. Then a bunch of sheeple following steps because the general idea sounded "good".



Tell me those aren't crazy.

None of those are any crazier than allowing 1% of the population to control 40% of the wealth. There is a lot of shit currently law that should be seen as crazier as this, but you don't because you are so used to it. Insurance based healthcare is always crazier than non insurance based healthcare. Free migration is impossible because the world is crazy, not because the idea is, becuase it's been reality for most of the existance of mankind.
Living wage? Gonna happen eventually as less and less people are needed on the workforce.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

I am referring to the peaceful assembly of American citizens at Zuccotti park.

When did that occur? Are you talking about a different Zuccotti Park.

To learn a little bit about doctrinally bankrupt Supreme Court decisions, I suggest you read this.

You could have at least cited Koramatsu, I mean going for Pleassy just shows you're not putting in the energy into the matter. Besides you're only doing the Pleassy spiel because you disagree with the decision, seriously you're essentially doing a modified Godwinning post.

Would you tell a client to violate Citizens United because you think it's wrong or would you tell them what the law is?

 

[Angry Fork]

I love that weird tactic that they try to use on people in the media too, they try to pull this strange shaming/guilting thing on people who disagree or don't really want to get involved (notice how its used here).. There was a big tv show sunday night on prime time, and 3 of them were invited to talk about what they are doing and so on,

anyhow the show has guests from various background, and it happened that they also had a singer here, who happens to be from Uganda. Anyhow during his interview, the Occupy people started interrupting the host, asking the singer how he felt about the movement and why he was not supporting them in the medias and bla bla.. The signer went 'well, I respect the movement and the fact that people have a right to protest, its all nice and everything, but it wont amount too much to be honest. There are bigger threats and problems in the world right now" ..

Then you had the 3 guys acting like he didnt care about 'poor people' and whatsnot bla bla bla.. The thing is..

That singer grew up in Uganda, during the civil wars they had over there. His _entire_ family was raped and slaughtered using bayonettes for a couple of hours, while he was hiding under a couch. When they interrupted him with their puerile bullshit, he was talking about how his seeing his newborn kid was incredible for him becasue it was the first family member of his own blood that he had 'seen' since he survived the massacre decades ago.

It was just fucked up that those clowns were trying to make him look/feel bad about their stuff when the dude actually had known misery and ACTUAL EXTREME BRUTALITY first hand..

They looked like such disconnected fools

The 3 people in that case were wrong, overzealous and perhaps stupid, but the end of your post ended up sounding like 'well things are worse over there so let's forget about the problems here' argument. Our horrendous political process, the state of college education/costs, and the amount of say corporations have when it comes to laws/policies is nothing to be scoffed at.

 

[empty vessel]

You could have at least cited Koramatsu, I mean going for Pleassy just shows you're not putting in the energy into the matter. Besides you're only doing the Pleassy spiel because you disagree with the decision, seriously you're essentially doing a modified Godwinning post.

What I am doing is calling out your hiding behind the Supreme Court as if it were an infallible institution. Feel free to talk about the underlying issue, if you think you can do so intelligently.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

The 3 people in that case were wrong, overzealous and perhaps stupid, but the end of your post ended up sounding like 'well things are worse over there so let's forget about the problems here' argument. Our horrendous political process, the state of college education/costs, and the amount of say corporations have when it comes to laws/policies is nothing to be scoffed at.

Perhaps? Perhaps?

 

[Flying_Phoenix]

.

 

[JzeroT1437]

I've supported the cause since they sprung up, but they really turned the park into a shitshow with all the tents. I've been down about 3 times over the past 3 weeks and each time it's been more difficult to navigate because of the sheer number of tents--it was basically a walkway between tents.

I don't blame them for evicting the protesters.

 

[Flying_Phoenix]

Everybody in this thread needs to chill out.

 

[Angry Fork]

Perhaps? Perhaps?

There are many intelligent people that are fools when it comes to certain things. I wouldn't call someone stupid based on one instance/example. I don't know those guys and am just going on what the poster said.

 

[Mortrialus]

Fair and balanced folks.

Seriously, Fox and Friends is some of the worst programming in the history of television. Who the fuck seriously watches it, even if you're a conservative?

 

[Bulbo Urethral Baggins]

Fair and balanced folks.

Seriously, Fox and Friends is some of the worst programming in the history of television. Who the fuck seriously watches it, even if you're a conservative?

I watch it.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

What I am doing is calling out your hiding behind the Supreme Court as if it were an infallible institution. Feel free to talk about the underlying issue, if you think you can do so intelligently.

Feel free to talk to me when you have an understanding how the law works and how decisions of the Supreme Court works too. It's not infallible, BUT you don't get to pick and choose what you follow and what is law just because it annoys your leftist views. The good comes with the bad, and you have to work to change that, but you don't get to ignore the law.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Fair and balanced folks.

Seriously, Fox and Friends is some of the worst programming in the history of television. Who the fuck seriously watches it, even if you're a conservative?

I know I don't. I mean it and MSNBC compete for the crap award.

 

[ReBurn]

http://cloudfront.mediamatters.org/static/images/item/fnc-ff-20111115-owsgoodrid.png[IMG]

Fair and balanced folks.

Seriously, Fox and Friends is some of the worst programming in the history of television. Who the fuck seriously watches it, even if you're a conservative?[/QUOTE]
I think it's the most watched news network because it is quite often a trainwreck. People just can't look away.

 

[Mortrialus]

I watch it.

Why? It is bad, even by Fox News standards.

 

[Choke on the Magic]

Everybody in this thread needs to chill out.

More like the extreme left needs to chill out. holy crap.

 

[Angry Fork]

Feel free to talk to me when you have an understanding how the law works and how decisions of the Supreme Court works too. It's not infallible, BUT you don't get to pick and choose what you follow and what is law just because it annoys your leftist views. The good comes with the bad, and you have to work to change that, but you don't get to ignore the law.

Sometimes you have to ignore it to change it =/

 

[Choke on the Magic]

I know I don't. I mean it and MSNBC compete for the crap award.

It's pretty impossible to find a unbiased news source these days.

 

[empty vessel]

Feel free to talk to me when you have an understanding how the law works and how decisions of the Supreme Court works too. It's not infallible, BUT you don't get to pick and choose what you follow and what is law just because it annoys your leftist views. The good comes with the bad, and you have to work to change that, but you don't get to ignore the law.

First, tell that to MLK, Jr. Second, this is irrelevant to the discussion at hand, which is not about whether I as an executive of a corporation am going to violate some erroneous understanding granting constitutional rights to the entity I manage (as if that were even possible). This is a normative discussion about how corporations ought to be understood, a discussion you are steadfastly avoiding engaging in.

 

[alstein]

It's pretty impossible to find a unbiased news source these days.

That's because large corporations own the news, or in some cases the government.
You gotta serve your masters as newspeople.

 

[Baraka in the White House]

Feel free to talk to me when you have an understanding how the law works and how decisions of the Supreme Court works too. It's not infallible, BUT you don't get to pick and choose what you follow and what is law just because it annoys your leftist views. The good comes with the bad, and you have to work to change that, but you don't get to ignore the law.

There's really nothing "leftist" about someone going, "Hey, perhaps it's not a great idea for a business with access to incredible amounts of cash to be allowed to spend infinitely toward shaping public policy."

Why are people arguing with Manos?

Because shut up, that's why.

Spoiler

;p

 

[Mortrialus]

It's pretty impossible to find a unbiased news source these days.

Fuck the mantra of fair and balanced. I want news that is deliberately biased in favor of what is actually true.