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[The Albatross]

No, I'm not even talking about Sallie Mae (which has been completely private since 2004). I am talking about the fact that student loans came with federal guarantees, meaning private corporations were never on the hook for them. The public was. So, you're welcome for that loan. All the corporation that lent you money did was make a risk-free profit. And, compared to what rate the government would have charged had the system not contained this unnecessary middleman, that corporation gouged you, so that risk-free profit came at your expense and to your detriment.

Well I am not thanking you for my loan, because you see, I pay my loans and always plan to pay my loans. So, actually, you can thank me for any residual benefits that the government makes off of my responsibility, whether that be directly in interest payments (if the government were my direct lender) or in government revenue generated by my higher interest payments paid to a corporate middle man.

Now, if I were the type of person who would rather protest and go into voluntary default, instead of paying my loans, well those people can thank people like you and I. But, personally, I have a hunch that there aren't as many people like me in the Occupy Movement and a lot more people who should be thanking those like you and me.

I also doubt the reality that if the government were the sole lender for loans to private institutions that they would be able to provide loans to all students, at the lowest possible interest rate set by the Fed. I think that this would increase the risk for the federal government. Also, having worked in Enrollment in Higher Ed (my first job after college), I'm skeptical that the government lending agencies could respond quickly enough for the schools to maintain a balanced budget... While they may not have been providing the lowest rates (say, like borrowing at prime), we always got the best service from the corporate middle-men when a student had an issue going into the semester.

Up to you, really. I support higher education being publicly provided.

I like public institutions, there are some great gems, but for me to study what I wanted to study, I chose to go to a private college that had -- IMO -- a better focus on that study than what was offered around me. So, I chose to seek financing for that, obviously, more expensive college. I suppose perhaps we could close down private colleges and focus solely on public schools, but some of our greatest development, ideas, literature, and more, come from private universities and colleges (and I don't mean this detrimentally to public schools). It may set for a difficult future if tax dollars and the public have strong control of advanced curriculum.

-- Separately, unrelated to this conversation --

Looks like the Occupy Wall street crowd is finally making a tangible difference, disrupting the lives of people who work on Wall Street:

http://youtu.be/ZxaUgI0Ascw

Too bad the person who's working life their disrupting is this Vietnamese street vendor who had to close his shop for two weeks and hasn't been able to feed his family

This article from the Chronical of Higher Ed details walkouts and protests on college campuses:

http://chronicle.com/article/In-Day-of-Rallies-and/129288/

Students are worried, Allison Wade, a Spanish major at Indiana University-Purdue University at Fort Wayne who organized a campus rally there, told a local news station. "I have amassed $20,000 so far in debt, and I feel that's unacceptable," she said. "Many students are not certain that they're going to get jobs, and that's why we're here."

Damn. Spanish studies major mad about not getting her dream job immediately out of school. Better not consider majoring in something else.

(edit: just to be clear, I'm a strong proponent of the Liberal Arts and languages, I almost majored in Classics, but had the prospects for work been so dire for my major, then I would have chosen something else. Although, in reality, I do not work in a field in my major... But I do feel like what I learned in my major, and in my general studies, was pivitol to my "relative" personal success today. Caveat: THough, I am certainly still 99%, not 1% and never ever will be 1%)

 

[Door2Dawn]

What a whiner, you know how much I have? 250K from law school and grad school.

Congrats.

But it's still a problem that needs to be addressed.

 

[BobsRevenge]

I don't think giving people who can't make good financial decisions a free house is the right answer either.

The idea is broadly populist but as you can see, it's all fairly awful and it's much easier to rage and offer vague solutions than to think things through. It would cause increadible stress in the economy as people who are diligently paying for their homes decide to cash in, and you'll end up with an out of control tab to bail out all these new unforseen forecloseures. But props for suggesting something that a Soviet bureaucrat might dream up.

There's broadly two strains here. There's the (not sure if serious) group who are suggesting communism in the worst sense of the word, and the rest who are broadly just in-support and being optimistic something changes.

Yeah, I'm actually big on some socialist ideals. I didn't really try to explain how I think something like that would go down. I imagine a sort of fund to keep people in homes, refinance bad mortgages, and those sorts of things. Not just a one-off, you're home is yours now kind of deal. I was trying to put forth the idea of bottom-up bailouts instead of top-down. If you're going to create wealth to ease the bursting of the bubble, it would've been better to strengthen the middle and working classes. Then put in consumer protections to keep people from getting loans they can't afford.

There would've still been a bank bailout, like I said, but it would've been delivered in a precise and direct way by the government, fired bad eggs, and the government would then be able to accurately regulate the market to stabalize it long-term.

America's bailout was crude. I feel like a more socialist method would've been more sophisticated and effective. The capitalist method was obviously not optimal given what we have now. In some ways we made the potential problems worse by condensing the banking system.

I mean, it's obviously a fantasy that'd have no real backing in the government, but still.

America really didn't do enough to help out the people who were preyed on.

 

[Dude Abides]

Looks like the Occupy Wall street crowd is finally making a tangible difference, disrupting the lives of people who work on Wall Street:

http://youtu.be/ZxaUgI0Ascw

Too bad the person who's working life their disrupting is this Vietnamese street vendor who had to close his shop for two weeks and hasn't been able to feed his family

LoL at National Review crying crocodile tears for an immigrant street vendor. Next week they'll be investigating his status and calling for his deportation.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Congrats.

But it's still a problem that needs to be addressed.

Except I was able to find a job and make payments on it. I knew what the cost would be and I accepted that.

LoL at National Review crying crocodile tears for an immigrant street vendor. Next week they'll be investigating his status and calling for his deportation.

It doesn't change the fact the he's been screwed over.

 

[Divvy]

See this is my problem with the situation. There are a lot of great paying jobs out there that do not require a college education. As a country we place going to college too highly and it results in a lot more people attending than should be. This results in people with degrees they do not really need with all of the debt tagging along for the ride. People without a lot of technical background still go to college and choose a degree which better fits their interests (which is fine), but then cannot use that degree to find a job that pays enough to get rid of those debts.

For instance I went to an engineering school that cost over $30,000 a year (paid for by myself, not my parents) and always had to wonder what the plans were of those attending the same school, but majoring in history, various art programs, English, etc. I was able to get a job to handle my $500 a month in student loans, but I could see that being a real hardship for someone making half my salary.

I don't think people should be required to get a college education to succeed in life either. However, labour jobs are on the decline thanks to automation and globalization and job availability in general has declined due to the recession. A higher level of education is becoming more and more necessary to getting a job whether it should be or not.

 

[Karma Kramer]

Except I was able to find a job and make payments on it. I knew what the cost would be and I accepted that.

What year did you graduate?

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

What year did you graduate?

From law school, 2010

 

[Door2Dawn]

Except I was able to find a job and make payments on it. I knew what the cost would be and I accepted that.

Congrats.

But it's still a problem that needs to be addressed.

 

[Karma Kramer]

From law school, 2010

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout...ng-americans-put-off-adulthood-160406776.html

 

[RJT]

People are angry at Wall street because it symbolizes the wealthy class who escaped the recession relatively unscathed.

Let's look at the disparity of the situation:

Governments around the world spent trillions to bail out these banks, but despite all the lessons learned, the financial industry still manages to resist the introductions of new regulations to prevent this sort of thing from happening again. In fact, while the rest of the population suffers from unemployment and lowered standard of living, these thanks are still able to pay massive bonuses to their CEOs. How many people have had their wages cut due to companies having to weather the recession while at the same time management salaries remain stable.

Thanks to the recession, governments on all levels are now struggling to balance budget deficits. Their predominate solution is to cut social programs rather than boosting taxes for the wealthy. Here in Toronto, our new mayor froze property taxes and is in the process of cutting various social institutions such as libraries, public transit, arts, and environmental programs. How is this reasonable in any way? Why do the rich escape any losses while the rest of the population get their services cut?

I've already mentioned in a previous post how despite being critical in the creation of this crisis, these financial institutions still get bailed out while students and homeowners are shit out of luck? How is it fair that in America, student debt cannot be cleared through bankruptcy when getting an education is so important for employment?

Finally, the reason this will not be solved by trying to elect better politicians is due to the fact that the financial sector is one of the largest source of campaign donations. Due to the increase in income inequality, people are becoming less and less influential in their political system. This is why protests have sprung up to vent frustration at this disparity. Why do the great majority of people who had no hand in this financial crisis be the ones who have to suffer while the rich have not given up an inch? Some people continually criticize the movement for having no clear goals, but this crisis was complex in its making and any solution will be equally complex.

I understand the frustration people are feeling these days, and I completely agree that we need to improve the system.

But the way to do it is through politics. Like it or not, corporations are predictable: they try to maximize their profits using all the means available to them. You "just" have to limit the means available to them, and that is the role of governments and courts.

The way to reform the system, to me, is to use technology to add complete transparency to the governments action (except on security issues, obviously) and to focus on direct democracy (parties were a necessary evil before the Internet, but they're useless now). We need to put up the infrastructure necessary to make referendums the standard for important decisions: budgets, constitutional amendments, bailouts, etc.

This reminds me of my favorite Black Star song: "not strong, only aggressive, cause the power ain't directed".

 

[Dude Abides]

It doesn't change the fact the he's been screwed over.

Nor does it change the fact that the anti-protest crowd doesn't actually give a shit about him.

 

[HTuran]

"I spent money I didn't have, now I can't pay it back."

 

[marrec]

Congrats.

But it's still a problem that needs to be addressed.

I'm confused... what exactly is the problem that needs to be addressed here? She entered into those loans knowing full well she'd have to pay them back.

 

[Karma Kramer]

I'm confused... what exactly is the problem that needs to be addressed here? She entered into those loans knowing full well she'd have to pay them back.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout...ng-americans-put-off-adulthood-160406776.html

 

[Deku]

Nor does it change the fact that the anti-protest crowd doesn't actually give a shit about him.

and that makes it ok?

Seems like a dark road you are travelling down.

How many eggs for that omellete sir?

 

[Baraka in the White House]

"I spent money I didn't have, now I can't pay it back."

Who has $60K in their back pocket? Who has $10K?...

 

[Evil Benius]

I don't think people should be required to get a college education to succeed in life either. However, labour jobs are on the decline thanks to automation and globalization and job availability in general has declined due to the recession. A higher level of education is becoming more and more necessary to getting a job whether it should be or not.

True enough, but we also still look down on people who do a lot of the labor jobs that can never move away. Plumbers, electricians, construction workers, etc. can never be outsourced. The funny thing is people doing jobs like that can make a lot more money (the reason we seem to think everyone needs to go to college) than someone who might hold a lot of the more lower paying college degrees. However that person with the degree is viewed as more successful by a large portion of the population.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Nor does it change the fact that the anti-protest crowd doesn't actually give a shit about him.

Are you saying you have no sympathy for him at all, just because of NRO report? Look past the messenger. The man is trying to make a living and hasn't been able to because of this nonsense.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout...ng-americans-put-off-adulthood-160406776.html

Maybe they should try harder. You can't keep putting off adulthood.

 

[Wazzim]

Except I was able to find a job and make payments on it. I knew what the cost would be and I accepted that.

See, this is the post I was waiting for.

You Manos, member of NeoGAF and a Law school graduate who actually found a job are only hating the protesters because they are against people like YOU paying more taxes. That's why you're so afraid, you like your little nice etilist place in society. You spent so much on it and if people want to get it better then they just need to be lucky to find a place in that society of yours instead of making things easier for everyone.

Maybe they should try harder. You can't keep putting off adulthood.

I knew I was right about you.

 

[Karma Kramer]

Are you saying you have no sympathy for him at all, just because of NRO report? Look past the messenger. The man is trying to make a living and hasn't been able to because of this nonsense.

In your opinion, how smug can you be?

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

See, this is the post I was waiting for.

You Manos, member of NeoGAF and a Law school graduate who actually found a job are only hating the protesters because they are against people like YOU paying more taxes. That's why you're so afraid, you like your little nice etilist place in society. You spent so much on it and if people want to get it better then they just need to be lucky to find a place in that society of yours instead of making things easier for everyone.

LOL my wife and I combined earn under 100K with a kid on the way. I don't think we'd have to worry about the millionaire tax.

In your opinion, how smug can you be?

How much collateral damage can you tolerate?

 

[Baraka in the White House]

Maybe they should try harder. You can't keep putting off adulthood.

Still in good form, I see.

 

[JGS]

"I spent money I didn't have, now I can't pay it back."

Simple solution is to not lend out money for school.

I'm not sure that's what she meant though.

 

[RJT]

Who has $60K in their back pocket? Who has $10K?...

Depending on the current EUR/USD exchange rate, I think I do have $60K (and no loans - thankfully my education is mostly covered by the government - yay Europe!).

Spoiler

Maybe that crazy dude is gonna kill me now to distribute my money...

 

[marrec]

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout...ng-americans-put-off-adulthood-160406776.html

I'm very concerned about the Jobs outlook for the youth in the country, but it's not like her Student Loans snuck up behind her and stole all her money.

Who has $60K in their back pocket? Who has $10K?...

A lot of people have 10k, and many more can afford 60k in loans. It's a matter of knowing how much you can afford and planning for the future.

 

[Dude Abides]

and that makes it ok?

Seems like a dark road you are travelling down.

How many eggs for that omellete sir?

It's hard to take hypocrites seriously. Oh, the plight of the poor street vendor who we never gave a single thought before we could use him as a club against our ideological foes! Why don't you and Manos start a collection for this benighted soul whose plight moves you so?

 

[Doc Holliday]

I understand the frustration people are feeling these days, and I completely agree that we need to improve the system.

But the way to do it is through politics. Like it or not, corporations are predictable: they try to maximize their profits using all the means available to them. You "just" have to limit the means available to them, and that is the role of governments and courts.

Aren't peaceful protests considered a viable political tool?

 

[Divvy]

True enough, but we also still look down on people who do a lot of the labor jobs that can never move away. Plumbers, electricians, construction workers, etc. can never be outsourced. The funny thing is people doing jobs like that can make a lot more money (the reason we seem to think everyone needs to go to college) than someone who might hold a lot of the more lower paying college degrees. However that person with the degree is viewed as more successful by a large portion of the population.

Most certainly, trades jobs will always be necessary and I think they are generally stable. The problem is that most youth probably have higher aspirations whether realistic to their situation or not so they pursue goals that may not be reasonable. When I was in high school, there was certainly the feeling of "I can do anything I want to" and if anyone told me I should be a plumber I would have just scoffed. It's not right, but at that age I don't think you'd know any better.

 

[The Albatross]

LoL at National Review crying crocodile tears for an immigrant street vendor. Next week they'll be investigating his status and calling for his deportation.

Meh, different people at NR have different opinions on immigration. For conservative print, the Weekly Standard is much "stronger" (aka, wrong, IMO) on immigration than the National Review -- which given its strong Catholic roots has more writers who support populist immigration reform than some strict deportation.

But yeah, good point, guy probably doesn't actually exist. He was probably some sort of hologram or something.

 

[remnant]

See, this is the post I was waiting for.

You Manos, member of NeoGAF and a Law school graduate who actually found a job are only hating the protesters because they are against people like YOU paying more taxes. That's why you're so afraid, you like your little nice etilist place in society. You spent so much on it and if people want to get it better then they just need to be lucky to find a place in that society of yours instead of making things easier for everyone.

Yeah fuck Manos. Imagine how much better the world will be if we taxed him 3x as much as we do now and wasted his money in corrupt deals and ineffective programs.

 

[Karma Kramer]

I'm very concerned about the Jobs outlook for the youth in the country, but it's not like her Student Loans snuck up behind her and stole all her money.

No, but if she graduates and can't get a job like she expected when she entered college, it warrants feeling depressed.

 

[Deku]

See, this is the post I was waiting for.

You Manos, member of NeoGAF and a Law school graduate who actually found a job are only hating the protesters because they are against people like YOU paying more taxes. That's why you're so afraid, you like your little nice etilist place in society. You spent so much on it and if people want to get it better then they just need to be lucky to find a place in that society of yours instead of making things easier for everyone.

You're European so it's probably hard to understand.

One of the reason social democratic movement tends to run out of steam in the US is it runs into broad opposition from the public, who, despite not being wealthy, feel that hard work is still necessary for success.

I'm broadly in support of social democratic institutions, but Europeans fail to understand this about this continent. There's a lot of elements of the US economy that is very impressive, it's size and scale, but all that is because people do work hard.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

It's hard to take hypocrites seriously. Oh, the plight of the poor street vendor who we never gave a single thought before we could use him as a club against our ideological foes! Why don't you and Manos start a collection for this benighted soul whose plight moves you so?

You don't care, just admit it. He's acceptable collateral damage to you, correct?

Many of us commented in the last thread that this was going to hurt a lot of the people who run businesses in the area. Stop acting like no one raised this point before.

 

[RJT]

Aren't peaceful protests considered a viable political tool?

Of course. They're just choosing the wrong target, and thus are going to be ineffective. Which is kind of a bummer, because I do appreciate the energy.

 

[Karma Kramer]

Yeah fuck Manos. Imagine how much better the world will be if we taxed him 3x as much as we do now and wasted his money in corrupt deals and ineffective programs.

Manos makes 100k apparently, so you would hurt small business with that kind of tax policy. Not a good idea in this economy. You sound like a hippy.

 

[Wazzim]

LOL my wife and I combined earn under 100K with a kid on the way. I don't think we'd have to worry about the millionaire tax.

That's because you're young and this is your first year after graduating. You will most likely (and believe to) crawl your way up through the system in the next couple of years and become part of the upper class.

You're European so it's probably hard to understand.

One of the reason social democratic movement tends to run out of steam in the US is it runs into broad opposition from the public, who, despite not being wealthy, feel that hard work is still necessary for success.

I'm broadly in support of social democratic institutions, but Europeans fail to understand this about this continent. There's a lot of elements of the US economy that is very impressive, it's size and scale, but all that is because people do work hard.

I know you guys work very hard, we look like a bunch of lazy cows in comparison really.

 

[Timedog]

frankly this movement just feels like a big amorphous blob composed of every protest topic and backed by every fringe group/personas notable in the past decade coming together to dilute a simple message (fuck corrupt economic forces in this country) and meshing it together into one big vague bloop of political angst which either rallies or outright confuses people


a hipster movement if you will


EDIT: after skimming through the rest of this thread it seems this is where all the wikileaks folks went

man i missed you guys

Please define hipster.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Manos makes 100k apparently, so you would hurt small business with that kind of tax policy. Not a good idea in this economy. You sound like a hippy.

My wife and I combined.

 

[Owzers]

"I spent money I didn't have, now I can't pay it back."

all these idiots going to college, getting in debt, and expecting to be employed because of all the hard work they put in. They should just die. Or mow lawns? Or become maids? Or have been born white and rich?

I don't think i'll get over Romney saying in the republican debate that he doesn't want to tax the rich, he wants everyone to be rich.

 

[Karma Kramer]

My wife and I combined.

Yes exactly... no one here is saying you should be taxed 3x as much... remnant is trolling again.

 

[Dude Abides]

Meh, different people at NR have different opinions on immigration. For conservative print, the Weekly Standard is much "stronger" (aka, wrong, IMO) on immigration than the National Review -- which given its strong Catholic roots has more writers who support populist immigration reform than some strict deportation.

But yeah, good point, guy probably doesn't actually exist. He was probably some sort of hologram or something.

Yeah right. Krikorian is their go-to immigration guy and he'd nuke Mexico if he could. Catholic roots? Sounds like you haven't read an article there since the 70s.

Have you found out this guy's paypal account so we can send him some money?

 

[marrec]

No, but if she graduates and can't get a job like she expected when she entered college, it warrants feeling depressed.

I know that feel bro. I dropped the fuck out of college in my first year because I saw my loan debt piling up and decided I didn't want to be stuck paying 50k in loans for the next 30 years.

I have a fantastic job now and payed off what little debt I had (But for the house, 30 yr mortage and all) now I'm saving for my future. I know, congrats but that doesn't solve the problem... The problem isn't youth unemployment either, 55% is bad but is only up 9% from the lows of the last decade. The problem, in her very specific case, is entitlement. Just because you made a bad decision with your loans (60k at 11%? Who the fuck would take that deal?) Doesn't mean you get your debt wiped out, you aren't too big to fail. If you want to decry the crooks on Wall Street or the corrupt politicians that have pockets lined in Wall Street money, then go right ahead... but don't cry about the loans you entered into having to be paid back.

 

[Divvy]

Yeah fuck Manos. Imagine how much better the world will be if we taxed him 3x as much as we do now and wasted his money in corrupt deals and ineffective programs.

What the hell. 3x? Could you not make your point with a less ridiculous number? Is your argument so weak that you have to resort to hyperbole?

 

[Karma Kramer]

I know that feel bro. I dropped the fuck out of college in my first year because I saw my loan debt piling up and decided I didn't want to be stuck paying 50k in loans for the next 30 years.

I have a fantastic job now and payed off what little debt I had (But for the house, 30 yr mortage and all) now I'm saving for my future. I know, congrats but that doesn't solve the problem... The problem isn't youth unemployment either, 55% is bad but is only up 9% from the lows of the last decade. The problem, in her very specific case, is entitlement. Just because you made a bad decision with your loans (60k at 11%? Who the fuck would take that deal?) Doesn't mean you get your debt wiped out, you aren't too big to fail. If you want to decry the crooks on Wall Street or the corrupt politicians that have pockets lined in Wall Street money, then go right ahead... but don't cry about the loans you entered into having to be paid back.

 

[Dude Abides]

You don't care, just admit it. He's acceptable collateral damage to you, correct?

Many of us commented in the last thread that this was going to hurt a lot of the people who run businesses in the area. Stop acting like no one raised this point before.

Yes, opportunistic caterwauling about people you couldn't care less about is a standard righty rhetorical tactic. That you deployed it out the outset makes it no less transparent.

 

[Pctx]

The only true answer is to execute the rich and redistribute their wealth.

Most of them are giant pieces of shit anyways.

I really hope you edit this.... I mean... really?

 

[Wazzim]

Doesn't say much without showing the increase in income..

 

[Baraka in the White House]

Just because you made a bad decision with your loans (60k at 11%? Who the fuck would take that deal?) Doesn't mean you get your debt wiped out, you aren't too big to fail.

Assuming debt forgiveness is what she wants (as opposed to job opportunities that might actually help pay that debt back), you don't find this statement the least bit... ironic?