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[magicstop]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/07/opinion/krugman-confronting-the-malefactors.html?_r=1&hp

It may be behind the paywall, depending on how often you browse the NYT.

Thanks for the link and heads up. I'm very wary of anything from the MSM right now, but I've seen some redeeming editorials from CNN and maybe even a local Fox station, so I'll give this a go as well.

 

[BorkBork]

It not having a leader (a structure analogous and therefore subject to the hierarchy it is criticizing) is pretty much the only thing that's distinguishing and interesting about this and comparable movements.

Yeah, Magicstop had a good post about ten pages back that I feel is worth reposting:

Oh, and the reason the "leader" vs "group" vs "committee" vs whatever else is so tricky is because this movement specifically seeks to avoid overly concrete power hierarchies that are traditionally used for organizing people. Why? Because those systems tend to reflect the society in which they were designed and are so often used. Instead, there is no big "spokesperson" or "leader," and while there are people who "take the lead" to get stuff done and to achieve goals, they aren't leaders of the movement per se. They are leaders of specific actions, goals, or committees seeking to get concrete stuff done (like how to handle gathering and disposing of trash and recycling, how to insure restrooms are available, how to access legal help, etc.). So there's not great terminology for a leaderless yet led group, and thus there is some confusion in the language.
Don't get too hung up by it

 

[Something Wicked]

Out of 300 million, which was the number mentioned (though the actual estimate is 307 Source: U.S. Census Bureau
307,006,550 - Jul 2009), not many is pretty accurate. Hell it would take more than 3 million to even be 1% of the population.

So you're saying the Occupiers are the real 1%, huh?

As a part of the 98%, my fellow 98%-ers should form a new movement - free booze and hookers for all.

 

[empty vessel]

Obviously, squeezing businesses to death through taxes and regulation is the true answer to job creation.

And here I thought it was squeezing the middle class to death. The most pressing issue facing the country is how to restore equity to income distribution. Income inequality distorts democratic processes and even smothers economic growth.

Inequality matters for growth and other macroeconomic outcomes, in all corners of the globe. One need look no further than the role inequality is thought to have played in creating the disaffection that underlies much of the recent unrest in the Middle East. And, taking a historical perspective, the increase in U.S. income inequality in recent decades is strikingly similar to the increase that occurred in the 1920s. In both cases there was a boom in the financial sector, poor people borrowed a lot, and a huge financial crisis ensued (see “Leveraging Inequality,” F&D, December 2010 and “Inequality = Indebted” in this issue of F&D). The recent global economic crisis, with its roots in U.S. financial markets, may have resulted, in part at least, from the increase in inequality. With inequality growing in the United States and other important economies, the relationship between inequality and growth takes on more significance. ...

Remarkably, inequality retains its statistical and economic significance even when we include many potential determinants at the same time, a claim that we cannot make for many of the conventional determinants of good growth performance, such as the quality of institutions and trade openness. Inequality still matters when we allow for regional differences in expected growth duration (such as between emerging Asia and Africa). This all suggests that inequality seems to matter in itself and is not just proxying for other factors. Inequality also preserves its significance more systematically across different samples and definitions of growth spells than the other variables do. Of course, inequality is not the only thing that matters but, from our analysis, it clearly belongs on the list of well-established growth factors such as the quality of political institutions or trade openness.

http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/fandd/2011/09/Berg.htm

And speaking of the "quality of political institutions," as it turns out, inequality negatively affects that as well:

This article argues that income inequality increases the level of corruption through material and normative mechanisms. The wealthy have both greater motivation and more opportunity to engage in corruption, whereas the poor are more vulnerable to extortion and less able to monitor and hold the rich and powerful accountable as inequality increases. Inequality also adversely affects social norms about corruption and people’s beliefs about the legitimacy of rules and institutions, thereby making it easier for them to tolerate corruption as acceptable behavior. This comparative analysis of 129 countries using two-stage least squares methods with a variety of instrumental variables supports the authors’ hypotheses using different measures of corruption (the World Bank’s Control of Corruption Index and the Transparency International’s Corruption Perceptions Index). The explanatory power of inequality is at least as important as conventionally accepted causes of corruption such as economic development. The authors also found a significant interaction effect between inequality and democracy, as well as evidence that inequality affects norms and perceptions about corruption using the World Values Surveys data. Because corruption also contributes to income inequality, societies often fall into vicious circles of inequality and corruption.

http://irps.ucsd.edu/assets/003/5298.pdf (PDF)

Taxes and regulation are indeed the path forward to job creation. They are essential to modulate the concentrations of economic power that capitalism left to its own devices gravitates towards and to sustain economic growth and prevent erratic booms and busts, an economic period the US has now entered due to its rampant inequality.

 

[Karma Kramer]

Link for those too lazy to find it ourselves? Edit: nvm, found it myself: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/07/o...-malefactors.html?_r=1&src=ISMR_HP_LO_MST_FB#

Great piece. This kind of support is huge!

 

[HeadlessRoland]

I wish I could go, been to every major rally and riot in the last decade or so in Seattle.

 

[cooljeanius]

Apparently Occupy DC has taken off after all and I just missed it:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local...reedom-plaza/2011/10/06/gIQATeeLQL_story.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/occupy-wall-street-hits-dc/2011/10/06/gIQAOe4RRL_gallery.html

 

[Bad_Boy]

so I'm watching the live feed, and some interesting things were being said.

-NYPD commands are coming from very high up in the paygrade, bloomberg?
-mayor bloomberg's girlfriend is on the board for brookfield office properties, the private owners of the zucotti park
-2+ million spent by NYPD just today to "watch" the protestors
-the baracades around wallstreet were put up by homeland security, not nypd
-anti-terrorist police are involved
-the mayor adams of portland marched with the protestors of occupy portland
-33 arrests @ occupy seattle

 

[Puddles]

Over the past few weeks, Karma Kramer and I have been working on a political website that we'd like to push hard in the coming months.

The site at its basic level will serve as a one-stop resource for low-information and previously-disinterested voters, along with in-depth economic and policy information for the more-informed crowd.

The timing of this couldn't possibly be better, what with the Occupy movements going on right now.

Right now we need one, or possibly two people:

1) A CSS guy who can develop the aesthetic feel of the site, and
2) Someone who can create logos for headers and images for the link buttons.

If we can get one guy who can do both things, that's cool too.

We're also looking for content writers.

PM me if you're interested.

 

[timetokill]

What? Libertarianism would mean even less regulation (ie, none) for Wall Street to be free to fuck over ordinary Americans. That seems the polar opposite of what people are protesting about.

This only makes sense if you think we are being fucked by corps alone. We're not. Our gov't is complicit, enables and promotes this current situation.

Many libertarians want small gov't because a large gov't is inevitably corrupted. I believe the government can be smaller and also regulate business in a logical manner.

To equate libertarian thought with corporatist thought is incorrect. The government enabled this kind of situation and behavior through bad policy.

 

[Goldmund]

Yeah, Magicstop had a good post about ten pages back that I feel is worth reposting:

Oh, and the reason the "leader" vs "group" vs "committee" vs whatever else is so tricky is because this movement specifically seeks to avoid overly concrete power hierarchies that are traditionally used for organizing people. Why? Because those systems tend to reflect the society in which they were designed and are so often used. Instead, there is no big "spokesperson" or "leader," and while there are people who "take the lead" to get stuff done and to achieve goals, they aren't leaders of the movement per se. They are leaders of specific actions, goals, or committees seeking to get concrete stuff done (like how to handle gathering and disposing of trash and recycling, how to insure restrooms are available, how to access legal help, etc.). So there's not great terminology for a leaderless yet led group, and thus there is some confusion in the language.
Don't get too hung up by it

Ah, thanks. Sorry, I must have missed it. Another redundant post by me. Hurrah.

 

[Black Republican]

im probably late as hell on this but lolz at the wallstreet guys

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=2PiXDTK_CBY

 

[remnant]

The government enabled this kind of situation and behavior through bad policy.

I don't think the people protesting seeing any issue with the government at all. Any bad policy is waved away as corporate lobbying. This is the problem with narrowminded thinking. When you are so sure one guy is the villain you get tunnel vision.

This is a rather foolish way of thinking imo. If these people get everything we want, we will be living in a country that will have abandoned any hopes of getting out of debt, in the short or long term. A very precarious revenue stream, as funding government, a government that is designed to grow and spend more every generation solely by the "1%" is unrealistic everywhere in the world and a people that will have learned nothing. We will still be subsiding homes through deductions and credits or voting for politicians based off which gives our industry of choice the most welfare.

 

[travisbickle]

I don't think the people protesting seeing any issue with the government at all. Any bad policy is waved away as corporate lobbying. This is the problem with narrowminded thinking. When you are so sure one guy is the villain you get tunnel vision.

This is a rather foolish way of thinking imo. If these people get everything we want, we will be living in a country that will have abandoned any hopes of getting out of debt, in the short or long term. A very precarious revenue stream, as funding government, a government that is designed to grow and spend more every generation solely by the "1%" is unrealistic everywhere in the world and a people that will have learned nothing. We will still be subsiding homes through deductions and credits or voting for politicians based off which gives our industry of choice the most welfare.

Yes Remnant, it's the other people who are narrow-minded and have tunnel vision.

 

[XMonkey]

I don't think the people protesting seeing any issue with the government at all. Any bad policy is waved away as corporate lobbying. This is the problem with narrowminded thinking. When you are so sure one guy is the villain you get tunnel vision.

You see what you want to see.

 

[remnant]

Yes Remnant, it's the other people who are narrow-minded and have tunnel vision.

The entire movement is based around blaming one group of people, defined soley by their wealth for every problem in the world. Yes that is narrowminded.

You see what you want to see.

That's great if you're a kid, but if you're marching in the streets for revolution you are an adult and can't afford thinking like that anymore. They want to be taken seriously. Let's take them seriously.

 

[XMonkey]

I was saying that you, remnant, see what you want to see.

You consistently try to speak for the people in this movement as if you are the authority on what it's about in an effort to pigeonhole and then tear it down.

 

[alstein]

This only makes sense if you think we are being fucked by corps alone. We're not. Our gov't is complicit, enables and promotes this current situation.

Many libertarians want small gov't because a large gov't is inevitably corrupted. I believe the government can be smaller and also regulate business in a logical manner.

To equate libertarian thought with corporatist thought is incorrect. The government enabled this kind of situation and behavior through bad policy.

This is why I've said Libertarianism needs to distance itself/separate from objectivism, which is the corrupted form of libertarianism.

Free-market policies can work if there is an actual free market. What the corporations have done in America is destroy the free market on things like labor into a system that's entirely in their favor.

 

[theBishop]

Free-market policies can work if there is an actual free market. What the corporations have done in America is destroy the free market on things like labor into a system that's entirely in their favor.

Ugh.

 

[Jenga]

Karma Kramer

working on a political website

oh god lol

 

[Londa]

Apparently Occupy DC has taken off after all and I just missed it:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local...reedom-plaza/2011/10/06/gIQATeeLQL_story.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/occupy-wall-street-hits-dc/2011/10/06/gIQAOe4RRL_gallery.html

It's still going on. Everyday the crowd gets bigger. I think they are doing it today and tomorrow. They have a permit to rally until Sunday.

 

[Enron]

It's still going on. Everyday the crowd gets bigger. I think they are doing it today and tomorrow. They have a permit to rally until Sunday.

A PERMIT!

It's funny, these OCCUPY movements in all the other cities seem to be doing things right - getting permits, rallying in front of x target, not mucking up the streets and causing chaos for the rest of the people in the area - unlike the people in New York.

 

[Evil Benius]

A PERMIT!

It's funny, these OCCUPY movements in all the other cities seem to be doing things right - getting permits, rallying in front of x target, not mucking up the streets and causing chaos for the rest of the people in the area - unlike the people in New York.

And you know what, I might actually stop to hear your message if you are not being a dick while presenting it. Getting in my way and causing me hassle is not going to win my support, it will just make me outright reject anything you have to say before you say it.

 

[DarkKyo]

I was going to pull out of BoA any day now(once my affairs with my new, small-city bank are in order).. they better fucking let me close my account. I know my mom had trouble doing it and that was a couple years ago now.

 

[JohnnyPhatsaqs]

I wonder how many of these super concerned smart protesters that are against the machine are tweeting from their Apple iPhones and iPads using AT&T while drinking a Starbucks latte while wearing their cool abercrombie clothing and Oakley sunglasses, and drove there in their Toyota Prius, that they put Exxon gas in, listening to Sirius radio on the way.

And then when they get done will go home and play on their Microsoft Xbox or Sony Playstation on their Samsung flatscreen that they pay for using a BoA debit card or Capital One credit card. Using these devices powered by a huge energy conglomerate while they charge their green cars with power from a coal burning cogeneration plant.

Then they will jump on their Apple MacBook or HP computer to complain about the man using Comcast Internet in a home financed by Chase Bank while eating a Subway sandwich and drinking a Pepsi. They'll be chomping on their food while checking status of an order from Amazon and reading an anti establishment book on their Kindle under a GE light bulb while sitting on an IKEA couch. All the while enjoying an air condition system built by Trane that uses ozone destroying refrigerant.

Fuck off.

You want to make a difference? Do it with your pocketbooks. That's what they'll feel. Don't sit and bitch about the evil companies MAKING you do shit. Go be Amish. Be consistent and quit supporting these companies with your money if you believe in it strongly enough. Otherwise, you're just as full of shit as the people you're protesting.

 

[DarkKyo]

rabblerabblerabble

Wow this point hasn't been made before. lol

 

[Bulbo Urethral Baggins]

I wonder how many of these super concerned smart protesters that are against the machine are tweeting from their Apple iPhones and iPads using AT&T while drinking a Starbucks latte while wearing their cool abercrombie clothing and Oakley sunglasses, and drove there in their Toyota Prius, that they put Exxon gas in, listening to Sirius radio on the way.

And then when they get done will go home and play on their Microsoft Xbox or Sony Playstation on their Samsung flatscreen that they pay for using a BoA debit card or Capital One credit card. Using these devices powered by a huge energy conglomerate while they charge their green cars with power from a coal burning cogeneration plant.

Then they will jump on their Apple MacBook or HP computer to complain about the man using Comcast Internet in a home financed by Chase Bank while eating a Subway sandwich and drinking a Pepsi. They'll be chomping on their food while checking status of an order from Amazon and reading an anti establishment book on their Kindle under a GE light bulb while sitting on an IKEA couch. All the while enjoying an air condition system built by Trane that uses ozone destroying refrigerant.

Fuck off.

You want to make a difference? Do it with your pocketbooks. That's what they'll feel. Don't sit and bitch about the evil companies MAKING you do shit. Go be Amish. Be consistent and quit supporting these companies with your money if you believe in it strongly enough. Otherwise, you're just as full of shit as the people you're protesting.

Yep. Nothing worse than fake hippies.

 

[theBishop]

I wonder how many of these super concerned smart protesters that are against the machine are tweeting from their Apple iPhones and iPads using AT&T while drinking a Starbucks latte while wearing their cool abercrombie clothing and Oakley sunglasses, and drove there in their Toyota Prius, that they put Exxon gas in, listening to Sirius radio on the way.

Nice strawman. Nobody's arguing against modern technology. On the contrary, modern technology is a prerequisite for a more egalitarian society.

 

[Zabka]

Stop playing Xbox or the government won't revoke corporate personhood.

Makes perfect sense.

 

[DarkKyo]

Yep. Nothing worse than fake hippies.

So people who have obtained products in the past can't feel outrage at a system that screws people over? Its not like we cant have companies making products without said system and its not like money going into a starbucks coffee lines a wall street investor's wallet. Such a dumb argument.

 

[Divvy]

I wonder how many of these super concerned smart protesters that are against the machine are tweeting from their Apple iPhones and iPads using AT&T while drinking a Starbucks latte while wearing their cool abercrombie clothing and Oakley sunglasses, and drove there in their Toyota Prius, that they put Exxon gas in, listening to Sirius radio on the way.

And then when they get done will go home and play on their Microsoft Xbox or Sony Playstation on their Samsung flatscreen that they pay for using a BoA debit card or Capital One credit card. Using these devices powered by a huge energy conglomerate while they charge their green cars with power from a coal burning cogeneration plant.

Then they will jump on their Apple MacBook or HP computer to complain about the man using Comcast Internet in a home financed by Chase Bank while eating a Subway sandwich and drinking a Pepsi. They'll be chomping on their food while checking status of an order from Amazon and reading an anti establishment book on their Kindle under a GE light bulb while sitting on an IKEA couch. All the while enjoying an air condition system built by Trane that uses ozone destroying refrigerant.

Fuck off.

You want to make a difference? Do it with your pocketbooks. That's what they'll feel. Don't sit and bitch about the evil companies MAKING you do shit. Go be Amish. Be consistent and quit supporting these companies with your money if you believe in it strongly enough. Otherwise, you're just as full of shit as the people you're protesting.

Trying to reform capitalism does not mean one has to separate oneself from it.

 

[Dude Abides]

Hai guys I heard some protesters have iPhones

 

[PantherLotus]

I wonder how many of these super concerned smart protesters that are against the machine are tweeting from their Apple iPhones and iPads using AT&T while drinking a Starbucks latte while wearing their cool abercrombie clothing and Oakley sunglasses, and drove there in their Toyota Prius, that they put Exxon gas in, listening to Sirius radio on the way.

And then when they get done will go home and play on their Microsoft Xbox or Sony Playstation on their Samsung flatscreen that they pay for using a BoA debit card or Capital One credit card. Using these devices powered by a huge energy conglomerate while they charge their green cars with power from a coal burning cogeneration plant.

Then they will jump on their Apple MacBook or HP computer to complain about the man using Comcast Internet in a home financed by Chase Bank while eating a Subway sandwich and drinking a Pepsi. They'll be chomping on their food while checking status of an order from Amazon and reading an anti establishment book on their Kindle under a GE light bulb while sitting on an IKEA couch. All the while enjoying an air condition system built by Trane that uses ozone destroying refrigerant.

Fuck off.

You want to make a difference? Do it with your pocketbooks. That's what they'll feel. Don't sit and bitch about the evil companies MAKING you do shit. Go be Amish. Be consistent and quit supporting these companies with your money if you believe in it strongly enough. Otherwise, you're just as full of shit as the people you're protesting.

 

[theBishop]

So people who have obtained products in the past can't feel outrage at a system that screws people over? Its not like we cant have companies making products without said system and its not like money going into a starbucks coffee lines a wall street investor's wallet. Such a dumb argument.

It's just more unreasoned dismissal.

If citizens have a tenuous, right-to-work job and protest, the naysayers say "why are you complaining!? you have a job!".

If citizens are unemployed and protest, the naysayers say "get off the street and get a job, hippie!".

The only people "allowed" to protest in this worldview are the people with the least grievances... and thus the least likely to protest.

 

[Evil Benius]

Nice strawman. Nobody's arguing against modern technology. On the contrary, modern technology is a prerequisite for a more egalitarian society.

However there are people protesting about underpaid workers, the lack of American jobs, and the rich getting richer. A lot of consumer products pretty much hit all of these points, but people have no issue using them while protesting. For instance the components making up an iPhone are manufactured by cheap labor in China with the profits lining the pockets of those already rich.

Either way though this argument has already been beaten to death here so yeah he really did not need to bring it up again.

 

[JohnnyPhatsaqs]

Wow this point hasn't been made before. lol

And it's legitimate. Again, you love the fruits of what these companies produce, yet bitch about how they produce it. Not thinking about the fact that they wouldn't do it if they weren't making a killing of it. My point is, if it bothers you so damn much, don't use it. You are supporting this shit by paying for it.

 

[bengraven]

The right wingers I know are discounting this because apparently "Occupy Wall Street has corporate sponsers".

 

[theBishop]

However there are people protesting about underpaid workers, the lack of American jobs, and the rich getting richer. A lot of consumer products pretty much hit all of these points, but people have no issue using them while protesting. For instance the components making up an iPhone are manufactured by cheap labor in China with the profits lining the pockets of those already rich.

Either way though this argument has already been beaten to death here so yeah he really did not need to bring it up again.

Other than covering up the brand logo (which i wouldn't oppose), what's your point? These are the weapons we have. I see no problem with using corporate technologies against them, especially when there's no alternative.

In a thread about the drug war, somebody pointed out that the cartels are using guns manufactured in the US. According to the logic above, the cartels are hypocrites. I just don't see it.

 

[Zero Hero]

Punch him in the face and delete him from your cell phone. Done.

lol no. The man did 18 months in Vietnam and then employed a few dozen people for years until his business partner took the company's money and left the country. He is more than entitled to his opinion no matter how much I disagree with him.

 

[Dude Abides]

And it's legitimate. Again, you love the fruits of what these companies produce, yet bitch about how they produce it. Not thinking about the fact that they wouldn't do it if they weren't making a killing of it. My point is, if it bothers you so damn much, don't use it. You are supporting this shit by paying for it.

Nope. It's just stupid ad hominem.

 

[RSTEIN]

I see no problem with using corporate technologies against them

Who is them?

 

[DarkKyo]

And it's legitimate. Again, you love the fruits of what these companies produce, yet bitch about how they produce it. Not thinking about the fact that they wouldn't do it if they weren't making a killing of it. My point is, if it bothers you so damn much, don't use it. You are supporting this shit by paying for it.

Lol what a dumbass...

 

[Phoenician_Viking]

That´s just a brilliant sign.

 

[Divvy]

"Stop using corporate products!!!! It's hyyyyyypocritical!!!!"


Later...


"You look like bums, dress nicer!"

 

[HamPster PamPster]

I wish I had as much money as JohnnyPhatsaqs's imaginary protester

 

[theBishop]

Who is them?

The corporations which commit the labor abuses being protested. It would be beautiful if citizens only rode to the occupations on buses and trains manufactured in worked-owned factories, and communicated via smartphones developed by engineering coops, but that's not the society we have.

 

[Enron]

And you know what, I might actually stop to hear your message if you are not being a dick while presenting it. Getting in my way and causing me hassle is not going to win my support, it will just make me outright reject anything you have to say before you say it.

Well, I wouldn't listen, but I don't care that they are out there doing it. Good for them. However, I will care when it starts fucking up traffic, keeps myself and others from going where we need to go, necessitates public safety resources be redirected, tramples property that someone will have to pay to clean up/restore, or generally anything else that ruins other people's day. Like I said, every other one of these seems to be going about in an orderly fashion, just not the NYC one.

 

[demon]

I wonder how many of these super concerned smart protesters that are against the machine are tweeting from their Apple iPhones and iPads using AT&T while drinking a Starbucks latte while wearing their cool abercrombie clothing and Oakley sunglasses, and drove there in their Toyota Prius, that they put Exxon gas in, listening to Sirius radio on the way.

And then when they get done will go home and play on their Microsoft Xbox or Sony Playstation on their Samsung flatscreen that they pay for using a BoA debit card or Capital One credit card. Using these devices powered by a huge energy conglomerate while they charge their green cars with power from a coal burning cogeneration plant.

Then they will jump on their Apple MacBook or HP computer to complain about the man using Comcast Internet in a home financed by Chase Bank while eating a Subway sandwich and drinking a Pepsi. They'll be chomping on their food while checking status of an order from Amazon and reading an anti establishment book on their Kindle under a GE light bulb while sitting on an IKEA couch. All the while enjoying an air condition system built by Trane that uses ozone destroying refrigerant.

Fuck off.

You want to make a difference? Do it with your pocketbooks. That's what they'll feel. Don't sit and bitch about the evil companies MAKING you do shit. Go be Amish. Be consistent and quit supporting these companies with your money if you believe in it strongly enough. Otherwise, you're just as full of shit as the people you're protesting.

 

[Evil Benius]

Other than covering up the brand logo (which i wouldn't oppose), what's your point? These are the weapons we have. I see no problem with using corporate technologies against them, especially when there's no alternative.

In a thread about the drug war, somebody pointed out that the cartels are using guns manufactured in the US. According to the logic above, the cartels are hypocrites. I just don't see it.

Hey as long as they are fine with the prices on those same items going up substantially if they get what they want then I guess they can stick with it. My only other suggestion about not using them is that it does not exactly generate sympathy if someone complaining about the lack of jobs, being underpaid, or crushed by student loan debt has a fairly new smartphone with a fairly pricey monthly fee.

I guess that goes along with the discussion of yesterday with people being programmed by society to think they need these things.

 

[magicstop]

While digging through news, etc., found a couple of articles worth mentioning:

Police Raid Occupy San Francisco encampment

Police Arrest Occupy Sacramento protesters

More to come, I'm sure. Keep your eyes on the OP as I'm busy updating.