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[akira28]

So you're basically saying it's okay for an organization to operate without leadership? Because that's what's happening right now.

Why did they begin these protests in the middle of September? What the hell were they thinking? Better get it done before it gets cold outside?

It's completely inexcusable and, at the same time, a wonderful metaphor for my generation. Steve Jobs was part of the 1%. So is Bill Gates. So is Warren Buffet. Yet they have done things, and given more to charity, than the tent city protestors will ever give or contribute in their entire existence. And yet they are lumped together as the people who are enslaving civilization?

Microsoft employs 90,000 people. Apple employs 50,000 people. Berkshire Hathaway employs 276,000 people. Three people are responsible for providing sustainable income to over 400,000 people. Upon Warren Buffets death, he will pass on nearly $40 Billion to charity.

So yes, we have every right to criticize these fools for not having a unified message or leadership. They are haphazardly machine gun spraying the rich as terrible people, the government as corrupt and corporations as evil. These are children who have an opportunity to feel as though their existence is worthwhile, and yet don't fully understand what exactly they are trying to achieve.

Every group has leaders, people we look to for guidance or direction, but not every group needs a figurehead. What we see here is people sitting without a figurehead, acting as a amorphous group putting on a display, mostly. A demonstration.

This thing is about passion. More passion than direction right now until we find focus. There's a general direction and a list of names and grievances, but as the movement grows, as more people bring what they have to the table, that message will change and that list will grow. Right now this is that alarm saying something is wrong. There is a message out there you can find, can you read it and say you disagree? Disregarding the media images and the early stories of this thing?

The Warren Buffets are the ones telling us we have to do something. He's telling us how unequal things are, and if we don't say someting to make them fix that inequality, then we're in the wrong. We know Warren Buffet and Bill Gates didn't write congress to make laws change, we know it was lobbyists from certain financial concerns that fought financial safety regulations. We are focusing on the people who got laws changed and manipulated both politics and our economic systems, we seek to change tax rates back for the 1% to what they were in better times. We aren't demonizing them at all. We're naming names, we're naming actions. If the shoe fits, wear it, but don't assume we're talking about you if you know your nose is clean, unless you have a guilty conscience.

Just because a system works, often at the expense of its lesser parts, it's no statement about the quality of that system. Microsoft employs so many people? Guess what? They could employ even more. Apple too. More Americans. More jobs here in this country. Spinoff products, subcorporations. No one would be against it. They might even encourage it if it was on the table. The question is what do you believe in, because ultimately this isn't about them, its about you. Just understand that people want you to see this as something entirely unrelatable to yourself, but you're still affected, make no mistake.

I won't call them fools. I won't judge them by some 20 yr old kid who was brave enough to go down there when life and the future are so uncertain and he could just as easily be at home with him mom. I won't judge them by the questions from the establishment media and political experts asking where they came from and why they're here.

Many of them are adults, older and more experienced and more successful than you are. Wiser than any of us here. Some of them are kids who don't know everything that's going on, but they know what they believe in, and they believe in fighting for it.

The Tea Party wanted to shut government down and leave us at the mercy of these guys. Remember that.

 

[markot]

ITT: People who don't know anything about how commercial media actually works tries to lecture someone who worked in it for years.

Cool ^_^ I cant argue about anything unless I have been employed in it for years?

OK GUYS! We can turn off the Internet now, its over!

 

[Loki]

sp3000 clearly has a point. "Social justice" isn't simply that Americans get to share their wealth more evenly among themselves. The American system clearly has problems, and so I sympathise with the protesters, but the American people have been happy to reap the rewards of severe global inequality for a long time. On a global level, America is the one percent. I hope the protesters are also willing to fight the living and working conditions of the billions of people from China, India, Brasil, and Indonesia.

Also, it's a shame that you guys are being so defensive. You're not going to persuade many people of your cause by abusing them.

Provided there is no exploitation of said nations on our part (which I am against), I fail to see why the well being of other nations is any of my concern. Let them prop themselves, their governments, and their own economies up so they can eventually come to the table as relative equals when their standard of living has increased on its own merits.

 

[ezrarh]

This race to the bottom has to end eventually or we all end up living in a country like India where the disparity between poor and wealthy is even more massive than the United States. You even see it between the states and cities. Giving ridiculous deals to corporations so the city/state gets the jobs only for the company to move to another state once the deal runs out.

 

[onadesertedisland]

sp3000 clearly has a point. "Social justice" isn't simply that Americans get to share their wealth more evenly among themselves. The American system clearly has problems, and so I sympathise with the protesters, but the American people have been happy to reap the rewards of severe global inequality for a long time. On a global level, America is the one percent. I hope the protesters are also willing to fight the living and working conditions of the billions of people from China, India, Brasil, and Indonesia.

Also, it's a shame that you guys are being so defensive. You're not going to persuade many people of your cause by abusing them.

Those in the terrible working conditions are there as a byproduct of the corporations that control things in the US. The sweatshops are run by corps trying to squeeze out every piece of profit they can. Labor is not a prideful ingredient of a product, but a sinful consequence that affects profits.

 

[akira28]

Also, it's a shame that you guys are being so defensive. You're not going to persuade many people of your cause by abusing them.

We can't really give love hugs to people defending police brutality and coming in with insults first and reasonable arguments later. Persuasion? Persuade yourself. This is about fighting now.

 

[eBay Huckster]

I was born and raised in this country

And I've been studying macroeconomics for much longer than the length of your sojourn to India. Your point, thus far, is what now?

so try your racism somewhere else junior.

Sorry, my psychic powers are malfunctioning. Guess I should be able to tell a globalization cheerleader lives in America when he's singing the praises of outsourcing to underpaid workers overseas as if it's something I should unquestioningly accept.

(ps: kind of glad to see it took until my 80th post for the "junior" card to get played)

 

[Mortrialus]

Of course not. It's only legitimate if it agrees with you.

I don't care about their right to protest. Protest is fine. I care that they are trampling on other people's shit to do it. Want to protest? Go fucking do it at the bank. Or on the steps of the House and Senate. Tea Party jerks didn't pull shit like this. They just show up someplace, "protest"/rally/scream, and leave.

Bullshit. You're either ignorant or a liar. Tea Partiers showed up at private property to protest all the time. They also often made a mess of shit, like they did at my college.

 

[triplestation]

WE!!! ARE!!!! 99-PER-CENT!!!!!!

 

[markot]

I love how we now have protest/strike 'etiquette'.

Its so damn shameful but a sign of the times I guess.... like protesting is fine, just dont do it in an impactful way, on private property, or inconvineance anyone one or business. It in itself has become this watered down version of itself... they have taken the life out of the life blood of democracy and civic society.

 

[Enron]

Bullshit. You're either ignorant or a liar. Tea Partiers showed up at private property to protest all the time. They also often made a mess of shit, like they did at my college.

Yeah, sorry, I was hoping you wouldn't remember the Great Tea Party Riots of 2009.

Cool ^_^ I cant argue about anything unless I have been employed in it for years?

OK GUYS! We can turn off the Internet now, its over!

Well, you can, but its a little hilarious when you try to tell someone else that's actually BEEN there that they are 100% wrong about it like you just tried to do.

 

[Serenity]

Just been reading the thread but I participated in the occupyboston parade last monday. I have a job and pay taxes. Just wanted to say that whenever someone asks me "what do you all want or you don't have a message?" I respond by asking them "well what do you want in life?" and they usually realize that its not something to simply answer with a punch line or catchy phrase.

 

[ronito]

sp3000 clearly has a point. "Social justice" isn't simply that Americans get to share their wealth more evenly among themselves. The American system clearly has problems, and so I sympathise with the protesters, but the American people have been happy to reap the rewards of severe global inequality for a long time. On a global level, America is the one percent. I hope the protesters are also willing to fight the living and working conditions of the billions of people from China, India, Brasil, and Indonesia.

Also, it's a shame that you guys are being so defensive. You're not going to persuade many people of your cause by abusing them.

Really? Because sp3000's point as I read it is more like "Poor in america? You're a lazy ass irresponsible slugabed. Poor in China/India? Victims of the abusive global economic system."

 

[bill gonorrhea]

OccupySeattle

So I my weekly Market run to Pike Place was cooped by the OCS.

Only American Flag I saw:

Crowd at 2nd & Pike:

Crowd regathered at Chase Bank back at Westlake Park:

Best pics:

I agree with about 60% of what they stood for, but come on guys.....:

Best Part:

All pics here:
http://www.odinseye.org/OccupySeattle/

 

[triplestation]

I think of protesting as a fun way to be part of something in New York. Those people are acting like their lives are on the line. I was there a while ago and I protested, too.

 

[sp3000]

And I've been studying macroeconomics for much longer than the length of your sojourn to India. Your point, thus far, is what now?

Yet you understand not even a single bit of basic macroeconomic theory. I should link you to the hundreds of papers that have researched why import and trade restrictions do not help nations in the long run, but it's not like you would read anything given to you anyway.

 

[eBay Huckster]

I should link you to the hundreds of papers that have researched why import and trade restrictions do not help nations in the long run

I should show you this thread in which I did not cheerlead import and trade restrictions at any point but then that'd just be ignoring every single bit of macroeconomic theory.

e: Also...

you still haven't quantified exactly what makes the work of non-Americans harder than mine in the same occupation

 

[rdrr gnr]

Just allow corporations to pay what they deem appropriate for your employment and all the woes will be gone. DUR!

 

[Captain Sparrow]

This is the stupidest protest ever. You can't protest an end result. You have to attack the root cause.

Collecting taxes from online sales and raising the tax rate of the rich, while closing loopholes would fix sooooo much.

 

[markot]

Yeah, sorry, I was hoping you wouldn't remember the Great Tea Party Riots of 2009.



Well, you can, but its a little hilarious when you try to tell someone else that's actually BEEN there that they are 100% wrong about it like you just tried to do.

I didnt say you were 100% wrong, I am not talking about specifics, I am generalising. Feel free to disprove me. But I think what I said is mostly true and pretty damn apparent. The Media is biased towards more than money, it is part of the structure people on the streets seek to undermine, so its bias will affect its 'independance' and dedication to ratings. This doesnt just go for Fox. CNN, MSNBC, NBC, ABC, CBS. These are huge corporations, massive companies.

 

[XMonkey]

It was a small street corner protest. Like 10 people. As for where... let me think real quick. Sorry, it's a 10 mile ride and I navigate like 25 intersections.

It was on Main St. I was on the left side of the road, and had to have turned left at the intersection since I didn't pass through the people on the other side of the road. It had to have been Main and Von Karman. Seems like an odd corner for them to protest.

Main and Macarthur would have been a more logical place to protest, but I would have been on the right side of the road then.

They had signs that said "Occupy Irvine".

Edit - Yeah, it was Main and Von Karman. They were on the little island thing where the right turn breaks off and leaves a little island in the intersection.

Thanks, way more specific than I expected haha. I was thinking maybe it was at UCI, but then I remembered how apathetic my campus was. I'm hopeful some protests will start there, though.

 

[Fatghost]

Race to the bottom.
I see it even with my company.

America's too expensive! We're starting offices in India.

<two years later>

India's too expensive we're closing up there and moving to China!

<now>

China's getting too expensive! Let's start looking at the philipines.

Very long term, a new bottom will form and things will go up from there.

 

[onadesertedisland]

I can't wait for fox news to call this a communism movement.

 

[ronito]

Very long term, a new bottom will form and things will go up from there.

Well that's the optimist's view. I think it's more like running a train in federal prison. Eventually everyone but the screwer gets screwed.

 

[Fatghost]

OccupySeattle


I agree with about 60% of what they stood for, but come on guys.....:

Best Part:

All pics here:
http://www.odinseye.org/OccupySeattle/

OK, those pics make me think America needs Joe McCarthy to rise from his grave and save us all.

 

[rdrr gnr]

This is the stupidest protest ever. You can't protest an end result. You have to attack the root cause.

Collecting taxes from online sales and raising the tax rate of the rich, while closing loopholes would fix sooooo much.

What do you mean by protesting an end result? If you take their protest of the bank bailouts at face value -- sure. But I think it's the process which by we got into that situation they care about.

 

[Mortrialus]

I can't wait for fox news to call this a communism movement.

They already are.

http://mediamatters.org/research/201110140010

 

[onadesertedisland]

This is the stupidest protest ever. You can't protest an end result. You have to attack the root cause.

Collecting taxes from online sales and raising the tax rate of the rich, while closing loopholes would fix sooooo much.

The government budget issues stem from tax cuts during two wars, not a lack of sales taxes.

Edit: sales...

 

[ReBurn]

Those in the terrible working conditions are there as a byproduct of the corporations that control things in the US. The sweatshops are run by corps trying to squeeze out every piece of profit they can. Labor is not a prideful ingredient of a product, but a sinful consequence that affects profits.

Not always. And not always directly. Many sweatshops are run by people living in those countries who are exploiting their own people for profit with the approval of their governments. Many of those sweatshops also provide goods to other countries around the world. Exploitation of other humans is a global issue and it can't simply be blamed on corporations. Washington politicians aren't exactly turning away lobbyist money intended to blind them to human rights issues, are they?

Corporations should be responsible on their own, but until the legal climate changes no real change will happen. I think it's misdirected anger to try to hang it all on corporations. Take it out on the politicians with your votes and on the corporations with your wallet.

 

[Dartastic]

"Ghandi said be the change you want to see... that's what we're fucking doing!"

http://vimeo.com/30476100

 

[Biff]

Every group has leaders, people we look to for guidance or direction, but not every group needs a figurehead. What we see here is people sitting without a figurehead, acting as a amorphous group putting on a display, mostly. A demonstration.

This thing is about passion. More passion than direction right now until we find focus. There's a general direction and a list of names and grievances, but as the movement grows, as more people bring what they have to the table, that message will change and that list will grow. Right now this is that alarm saying something is wrong. There is a message out there you can find, can you read it and say you disagree? Disregarding the media images and the early stories of this thing?

The Warren Buffets are the ones telling us we have to do something. He's telling us how unequal things are, and if we don't say someting to make them fix that inequality, then we're in the wrong. We know Warren Buffet and Bill Gates didn't write congress to make laws change, we know it was lobbyists from certain financial concerns that fought financial safety regulations. We are focusing on the people who got laws changed and manipulated both politics and our economic systems, we seek to change tax rates back for the 1% to what they were in better times. We aren't demonizing them at all. We're naming names, we're naming actions. If the shoe fits, wear it, but don't assume we're talking about you if you know your nose is clean, unless you have a guilty conscience.

Just because a system works, often at the expense of its lesser parts, it's no statement about the quality of that system. Microsoft employs so many people? Guess what? They could employ even more. Apple too. More Americans. More jobs here in this country. Spinoff products, subcorporations. No one would be against it. They might even encourage it if it was on the table. The question is what do you believe in, because ultimately this isn't about them, its about you. Just understand that people want you to see this as something entirely unrelatable to yourself, but you're still affected, make no mistake.

I won't call them fools. I won't judge them by some 20 yr old kid who was brave enough to go down there when life and the future are so uncertain and he could just as easily be at home with him mom. I won't judge them by the questions from the establishment media and political experts asking where they came from and why they're here.

Many of them are adults, older and more experienced and more successful than you are. Wiser than any of us here. Some of them are kids who don't know everything that's going on, but they know what they believe in, and they believe in fighting for it.

The Tea Party wanted to shut government down and leave us at the mercy of these guys. Remember that.

Paragraphs of absolutely nothing. Propaganda to incite a revolution. You brushed aside the main issue people like me have by essentially saying 'Don't worry, they'll figure it out. More people will join them. People who actually know what we have to do.' Then you continued on to tug at the hearstrings of the average citizen by calling out faceless evil lobbyists who have somehow made their lives harder. I could poll a hundred protestors, and I'm sure the reasons I get would hit every point you make... But that solves nothing. Absolutely nothing.

See the connection to the first line of my reply? c wat i did ther? (Oh my god... I'm using memes now just like half the Occupy protest signs I've seen?! I'm taking it just as seriously as them?! Wait...)

Well, it's almost a month into the demonstration, and nothing has changed. There is no more a specific direction than there was on Sept. 17th. Sitting around, twirling your thumbs, being 'part of something big' is not going to change anything, unless that 'something big' has a process that will lead to an outcome. You have persuaded me, quite literally, 0% towards your cause (but that wasn't the point, right?).

Good night and good luck. I can't even give you advice with your cause, because you do not know what it is. So I can only wish you good luck.

 

[Enron]

I didnt say you were 100% wrong, I am not talking about specifics, I am generalising. Feel free to disprove me. But I think what I said is mostly true and pretty damn apparent. The Media is biased towards more than money, it is part of the structure people on the streets seek to undermine, so its bias will affect its 'independance' and dedication to ratings. This doesnt just go for Fox. CNN, MSNBC, NBC, ABC, CBS. These are huge corporations, massive companies.

These are huge massive corporations whose sole business is to produce content that the average joe would find interesting. That's how they make their money - ALL OF IT. Why would they be afraid of these protesters? Why would they want to hide their message if people are interested in it? Interest = money.

These protesters are never going to "Bring the system down". Most of them don't even want that anyways. The commercial mass media industry literally has nothing to fear from this movement. The movement is actually a business opportunity for them - if the american public indicates that its something they want to hear. And on the flip side, why would these protesters want to undermine commercial mass media? The mass media is a tool they could use. It's not smart.

 

[Fatghost]

Well that's the optimist's view. I think it's more like running a train in federal prison. Eventually everyone but the screwer gets screwed.

Very long term, things are going to be great. Provided an asteroid doesn't hit the planet.

One thing to focus on is that even the very poorest of the "99%" in the US live better, longer, more enriched lives than most of the wealthy in centuries past.

For those of us alive and working now, things are going to suck more for us than for our parents generation. I don't think this can be fixed. It's not a matter of bank regulation or taxation because it does boil down to this race to the bottom that is an inevitable and unstoppable consequence of globalized markets, which ultimately are a good thing as they bring up more living standards than they decrease.

It sucks that for probably 200 million Americans their living standards will be worse than their parents. But in the past 2 decades the living standards of hundreds of millions of Chinese and Indians have dramatically improved.

I don't think JPM or C or BAC can do anything to reverse the trend though. And I don't think Obama or Boehner or Romney or Ron Paul or Pelosi or Hilary Clinton can either.

 

[eBay Huckster]

It isn't smart.

Somewhat of a side note, but you know what else isn't smart? sp3000 deflecting constantly from being asked to quantify what makes foreign workers more productive than me if we're performing the same work at the same level of quality, in favour of accusing me of racism and saying I don't understand macroeconomics because of a stance on protectionism that I have not ever taken.

Is it, or is it not, the fact that the foreign workers are more likely to be willing to work ten or more hours a day seven days a week?

 

[triplestation]

I wonder how many of these super concerned smart protesters that are against the machine are tweeting from their Apple iPhones and iPads using AT&T while drinking a Starbucks latte while wearing their cool abercrombie clothing and Oakley sunglasses, and drove there in their Toyota Prius, that they put Exxon gas in, listening to Sirius radio on the way.

And then when they get done will go home and play on their Microsoft Xbox or Sony Playstation on their Samsung flatscreen that they pay for using a BoA debit card or Capital One credit card. Using these devices powered by a huge energy conglomerate while they charge their green cars with power from a coal burning cogeneration plant.

Then they will jump on their Apple MacBook or HP computer to complain about the man using Comcast Internet in a home financed by Chase Bank while eating a Subway sandwich and drinking a Pepsi. They'll be chomping on their food while checking status of an order from Amazon and reading an anti establishment book on their Kindle under a GE light bulb while sitting on an IKEA couch. All the while enjoying an air condition system built by Trane that uses ozone destroying refrigerant.

Fuck off.

You want to make a difference? Do it with your pocketbooks. That's what they'll feel. Don't sit and bitch about the evil companies MAKING you do shit. Go be Amish. Be consistent and quit supporting these companies with your money if you believe in it strongly enough. Otherwise, you're just as full of shit as the people you're protesting.

This post is correct. I was at the protest a few hours ago and it was just one massive first world problem party. These people are just having fun, really. It gives them something to talk about when they go back to their petty, insignificant lives. People actually started to chant and dance and form little mini cults. Bunches of lonely sad fuckers dressed really nice were looking around aimlessly holding their DSLR cameras.. People with heavy duty backpacks with camera equipment and iphones and kindles and 4g this and thats.. The chanting was really, really creepy.

 

[akira28]

Paragraphs of absolutely nothing. Propaganda to incite a revolution. You brushed aside the main issue people like me have by essentially saying 'Don't worry, they'll figure it out. More people will join them. People who actually know what we have to do.'

What was that, your trap card? I remain unimpressed. My only regret was bothering to reply, but that's ok, I have a fridge full of beer and it's Saturday night. Live and learn.

 

[Enron]

What was that, your trap card? I remain unimpressed. My only regret was bothering to reply, but that's ok, I have a fridge full of beer and it's Saturday night. Live and learn.

I hope it isn't a fridge full of shitty macrobrews, from shitty corporations that enslave the working classes!

 

[AstroLad]

You want to make a difference? Do it with your pocketbooks. That's what they'll feel. Don't sit and bitch about the evil companies MAKING you do shit. Go be Amish. Be consistent and quit supporting these companies with your money if you believe in it strongly enough. Otherwise, you're just as full of shit as the people you're protesting.

that would be totally meaningless and ineffectual. this was like the guy 20 pages ago that said if you think the finance industry is broken you can fix that by closing your bank account. are people really so small-minded and solipsistic that they think that would make any difference whatsoever, even on an aggregate scale?

 

[NathanMcMahon]

Is the amount of American flags or lack thereof at the protests important?

 

[ronito]

that would be totally meaningless an ineffectual. this was like the guy 20 pages ago that said if you think the finance industry is broken you can fix that by closing your bank account. are people really so small-minded and solipsistic that they think that would make any difference whatsoever, even on an aggregate scale?

Me and all my friends closed our accounts! Let's see Citibank live without those 5 accounts!

Spoiler

(I lie, I didn't close my account, or have 4 friends for that matter)

 

[eBay Huckster]

that would be totally meaningless an ineffectual. this was like the guy 20 pages ago that said if you think the finance industry is broken you can fix that by closing your bank account. are people really so small-minded and solipsistic that they think that would make any difference whatsoever, even on an aggregate scale?

Well obviously if we can just get millions upon millions of people to follow our lead it'll just happen like that and then they'll really be hurting!

Spoiler

Just ignore the fact that even in the event that they lost millions of American customers they still wouldn't be hurting anymore thanks to globalization. Rhombus!

 

[akira28]

I hope it isn't a fridge full of shitty macrobrews, from shitty corporations that enslave the working classes!

Working class man loves working in working class brewery making working class beer.

Is the amount of American flags or lack thereof at the protests important?

It's how some of us select our Presidents, you know.

 

[Alucrid]

This is the stupidest protest ever. You can't protest an end result. You have to attack the root cause.

Collecting taxes from online sales and raising the tax rate of the rich, while closing loopholes would fix sooooo much.

How is that attacking the root cause? In fact, I don't see how you can even rein in the problem that is 'Wall Street' seeing as it has its fingers dug so widespread and in such complexities that it defies rulemaking. I mean Dodd-Frank act is huge at 848 pages (and only 16% of the rules have been written and finalized so far). Glass-Stegall was 37 by comparison.

 

[AstroLad]

Me and all my friends closed our accounts! Let's see Citibank live without those 5 accounts!

Spoiler

(I lie, I didn't close my account, or have 4 friends for that matter)

if everyone just stopped eating at mcdonald's glass-steagall would have never been repealed! and if people stopped buying ipods, white-collar crime would be thoroughly investigated and prosecuted!

 

[eBay Huckster]

if everyone just stopped eating at mcdonald's glass-steagall would have never been repealed! and if people stopped buying ipods, white-collar crime would be thoroughly investigated and prosecuted!

And if I just stopped renewing my health insurance card we'd have universal health care!

 

[onadesertedisland]

The counter point given against the movement is akin to trickle-down economics, albeit trickle-down democracy.

Stop buying things, they will behave!

Funny.

 

[coldvein]

astro dropping "solipsistic" in here.... my man.

 

[XMonkey]

Very long term, things are going to be great. Provided an asteroid doesn't hit the planet.

One thing to focus on is that even the very poorest of the "99%" in the US live better, longer, more enriched lives than most of the wealthy in centuries past.

For those of us alive and working now, things are going to suck more for us than for our parents generation. I don't think this can be fixed. It's not a matter of bank regulation or taxation because it does boil down to this race to the bottom that is an inevitable and unstoppable consequence of globalized markets, which ultimately are a good thing as they bring up more living standards than they decrease.

It sucks that for probably 200 million Americans their living standards will be worse than their parents. But in the past 2 decades the living standards of hundreds of millions of Chinese and Indians have dramatically improved.

I don't think JPM or C or BAC can do anything to reverse the trend though. And I don't think Obama or Boehner or Romney or Ron Paul or Pelosi or Hilary Clinton can either.

Not an unfair point you're making, but there are problems in this country that go beyond the economic effects of globalization and are in fact more specific to our democracy and the relationship between business and government. Those should be in our power to change, so let's make an effort.

 

[akira28]

Yeah ya'll have seen that picture of the protests, that points to every bit of plastic or cardboard and points to a corporation that produced it. Highlights all their phones and laptops and points to electronic corporations?

I know they think they have a point, but its like showing us instead how far off they are. People think that this is some random and unfocused rage against society. I didn't know people felt so openly identified with Citigroup CEOs and Wall Street lobbyists.

 

[bill gonorrhea]

Is the amount of American flags or lack thereof at the protests important?

Yes.